Well... It doesn't say outsider, just "extraplanar". i.e.: a creature from a different plane (in this case, not the Plane of Fire)."Extraplanar Subtype
This subtype is applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have it when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow."
Until the fighter leaves the plane, he is not extraplanar, thus gate does not work.
I see. Good to know.
If you are on the plane of fire when you cast it he is.Nope. That is not the listed rules for extraplanar.
That would be fine if it said, "creatures with the extraplanar subtype," but it doesn't and is clearly just saying creatures on a plane that you are not. Unless you want to argue that you couldn't call a fire elemental with a gate because when he's on the plane of fire he isn't an outsider.
That would be fine if it said, "creatures with the extraplanar subtype," but it doesn't and is clearly just saying creatures on a plane that you are not. Unless you want to argue that you couldn't call a fire elemental with a gate because when he's on the plane of fire he isn't an outsider.If you are on the plane of fire when you cast it he is.Nope. That is not the listed rules for extraplanar.
That's a good point... Although, to eb fair, the spell doesn't say it's calling the creature from their plane of origin. As far as we know, that fire elemental could have been in the astral plane when the Wizard Gate'd it here.
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People are fighting super hard for the Fighter to have build dependent features to take on a wizard that can literally change their build by the day, as well as can stockpile resources for days/weeks/years.
The problem is that the people fighting super hard to say the wizurd ALWAYS wins don't change their build by the day, they change their build from moment to moment. And that build that they change includes things like stats, feats, active contingencies, etc. IE, stuff that they DON'T actually get to change.
That's a good point... Although, to eb fair, the spell doesn't say it's calling the creature from their plane of origin. As far as we know, that fire elemental could have been in the astral plane when the Wizard Gate'd it here.That would be fine if it said, "creatures with the extraplanar subtype," but it doesn't and is clearly just saying creatures on a plane that you are not. Unless you want to argue that you couldn't call a fire elemental with a gate because when he's on the plane of fire he isn't an outsider.If you are on the plane of fire when you cast it he is.Nope. That is not the listed rules for extraplanar.
So it is the contention that when you call a fire elemental it never comes from the plane of fire.
So it is the contention that when you call a fire elemental it never comes from the plane of fire.That's a good point... Although, to eb fair, the spell doesn't say it's calling the creature from their plane of origin. As far as we know, that fire elemental could have been in the astral plane when the Wizard Gate'd it here.That would be fine if it said, "creatures with the extraplanar subtype," but it doesn't and is clearly just saying creatures on a plane that you are not. Unless you want to argue that you couldn't call a fire elemental with a gate because when he's on the plane of fire he isn't an outsider.If you are on the plane of fire when you cast it he is.Nope. That is not the listed rules for extraplanar.
This is the nonsense you must live with, if you do not play with a GM.
GMs do all sorts of smoothing out mechanics.
RAI:
1. Gate could mean in reference to the plane it is cast in.
2. Gate could mean in reference to the caster's home plane.
3. Gate could always mean in reference to the material plane and thus never works on material plane creatures.
...
n. And so on...
Yeah, I don't buy this line of logic at all. RAI is pretty clear here and RAW is (worst case) ambiguous.Neither did I, hence the post was removed.
Very well, mine in turn too.
I have YET to see anyone use Spellblane, Blood Money, or Sacred Geometry at a PFS table, even those at 12th level.
Pretty sure that is because none of them are PFS legal.
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People are fighting super hard for the Fighter to have build dependent features to take on a wizard that can literally change their build by the day, as well as can stockpile resources for days/weeks/years.The problem is that the people fighting super hard to say the wizurd ALWAYS wins don't change their build by the day, they change their build from moment to moment. And that build that they change includes things like stats, feats, active contingencies, etc. IE, stuff that they DON'T actually get to change.
People change their fighter builds in the same way, and as has been stated, a lot of these wizard builds have stated a lot of the same spells, it's not a huge 'change' aside from contingencies. We're playing Schrodinger's fighter vs. Schrodinger's wizard, and the wizard has FAR more possibilities.
Most people here are stating things the fighter can do to stop the wizard's tricks, it's rarely "This is how my fighter wins!" It's just "But I don't lose because of X". When the conversation is about how many different ways one party has to defeat the other, with the other party scrambling to find ways to defend itself, it seems pretty obvious who has the advantage here.
Also, I'm still waiting to hear back from Anzyr about what happens to the wizard after he picks a fight with a dude who uses trees for bows and fires branches for arrows.
(I fully accept that calling someone out for not posting in 10 minutes is completely unfair, but everyone else is having so much fun on the pick on Anzyr bandwagon that I wanted to join. Admittedly, I am actually trying to create a legitimate challenge for his notorious wizard.)
People change their fighter builds in the same way, and as has been stated, a lot of these wizard builds have stated a lot of the same spells, it's not a huge 'change' aside from contingencies. We're playing Schrodinger's fighter vs. Schrodinger's wizard, and the wizard has FAR more possibilities.
Most people here are stating things the fighter can do to stop the wizard's tricks, it's rarely "This is how my fighter wins!" It's just "But I don't lose because of X". When the conversation is about how many different ways one party has to defeat the other, with the other party scrambling to find ways to defend itself, it seems pretty obvious who has the advantage here.
I haven't. I have stuck to my build that was posted on page one.
I did not go back and buy wayfayers or other magic items that prevent mind-affecting. I did not make up the skill prof(Barrister). I did not spont grow wings or become human when gate was mention. I did not go back and add piles of scrolls my fighter could easily use. My fighter has stayed the same.
And is still waiting on that air-tight Geas command.
People are fighting super hard for the Fighter to have build dependent features to take on a wizard that can literally change their build by the day, as well as can stockpile resources for days/weeks/years.The problem is that the people fighting super hard to say the wizurd ALWAYS wins don't change their build by the day, they change their build from moment to moment. And that build that they change includes things like stats, feats, active contingencies, etc. IE, stuff that they DON'T actually get to change.People change their fighter builds in the same way, and as has been stated, a lot of these wizard builds have stated a lot of the same spells, it's not a huge 'change' aside from contingencies. We're playing Schrodinger's fighter vs. Schrodinger's wizard, and the wizard has FAR more possibilities.
Most people here are stating things the fighter can do to stop the wizard's tricks, it's rarely "This is how my fighter wins!" It's just "But I don't lose because of X". When the conversation is about how many different ways one party has to defeat the other, with the other party scrambling to find ways to defend itself, it seems pretty obvious who has the advantage here.
I have (1) specific protection up for a known tactic of deadly wizards the world wide. Some scrolls mostly of contingency, teleport, scry, and gate. That is a pretty universally useful list. And I defeat wizards by shooting the crap out of them with tree branches I call arrows.
Uh? Sure if you can manage to 1. Win initiate. and 2. Kill them. Both of those are pretty unlikely. And the Wizard would know to cast Disjunction thanks to Permanent Arcane Sight - if you have magical effects it only costs a swift action to make you not have them.Naw, I guarentee that wizard has bounties. Every time I squish one I take his gear and collect the bounties.Disjunction. Followed by the plan. Not to mention, this is going to eat your WBL every time while the Wizard expends. Attrition against a Wizard is not a war you will win.Ok Anzyr,
I'm a crafty fighter who's made it to 20th level. I have UMD, and I have scrolls. I know about your cute little exploding runes trick, so I always have a contingency up to cast a lesser globe of invulnerability when an explosive runes spell goes off near enough to affect me. I also have that fighter archetype capstone that makes me immune to mind affecting.
You drop in on me and play your cute little boom scrolls trick. I immediately pull my
crystal ballscroll of greater scry out and scry you. If you are on plane with me I will greater teleport to your location and wail your ass. If you are not on plane then I will whip out my scroll of gate and call your ass (no save) next to me and wail on you.I have 100,000 or so GP of wealth set aside just for protecting against crazy wizard antics.
What's your plan?
Given your stated +43 to initiative I have about a 40% chance to win. But assuming I lost, you are going to auto drop the disjunction 100% of the time you see auras? So you are going to be just 75 ft away from me?
So I lose initiative and you quicken a disjunction (that was A BUNCH of your wealth on that rod) how are you spending you move and standard actions? If the answer is cast some other spell it had better be your stated limited wish/geas trick or else you are cheating by having access to my stat block. If...
Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is only 30k. And thats +43 without Moment of Prescience.
What does he use for a bow string?Also, I'm still waiting to hear back from Anzyr about what happens to the wizard after he picks a fight with a dude who uses trees for bows and fires branches for arrows.
Dragon gut, natch'
I have YET to see anyone use Spellblane, Blood Money, or Sacred Geometry at a PFS table, even those at 12th level.Pretty sure that is because none of them are PFS legal.
I don't know about Spellbane, but Blood Money is PFS legal. I even have the book.
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builds don't teach a thing about the class, what they really show is the merits of the builder. the fact i use 3.5 material and haven't played pathfinder in years, puts me in a bit of a disadvantage when playing pathfinder and designing builds now that my favorite easily accessible online 3.5 edition resource is shut down.
builds don't teach a thing about the class, what they really show is the merits of the builder. the fact i use 3.5 material and haven't played pathfinder in years, puts me in a bit of a disadvantage when playing pathfinder and designing builds now that my favorite easily accessible online 3.5 edition resource is shut down.
Amen. Builds are a lot of nonsense for class discussion.
Is that the Moment of Prescience that doesn't likely work for initiative? Or if it does, then a mythic character can have an xtra +20 to initiative as well. Which may not be bad as it would add 20 more to stealth.
builds don't teach a thing about the class, what they really show is the merits of the builder. the fact i use 3.5 material and haven't played pathfinder in years, puts me in a bit of a disadvantage when playing pathfinder and designing builds now that my favorite easily accessible online 3.5 edition resource is shut down.Amen. Builds are a lot of nonsense for class discussion.
Says the person who will not bother to post an air-tight Geas command.
People are fighting super hard for the Fighter to have build dependent features to take on a wizard that can literally change their build by the day, as well as can stockpile resources for days/weeks/years.The problem is that the people fighting super hard to say the wizurd ALWAYS wins don't change their build by the day, they change their build from moment to moment. And that build that they change includes things like stats, feats, active contingencies, etc. IE, stuff that they DON'T actually get to change.
So far, Anzyr didn't change any of that, though. All he mentioned are spells that any Wizard is capable of having. Feats barely matter for Wizards, and I've never seen anyone change the Wizards stats... It's always the same obvious High Iny, good Dex & Con, decent Wis.
Asking for details of such a command before allowing it to work is in my opinion the same as asking for the exact wording of a speech or the exact mechanics of a sword exchange.If the wizard can hand-wave the command, then my lawyer can hand-wave the loophole for it.
In PF legalese is WIS based. Int does not help you at all.
(No craft skill helps you speak, since it is not making 'something' as assumed to be defined in the rules)
I submit the following assertions.
*Profession (Barrister) is used to operate as a legal professional and is based on precedent and legal system understanding and not is required or desired in the making of commands and geases, as many activities and skillsets require exacting language.PRD Link
*Intelligence is directly correlated to how well your character reasons. PRD Link
*This would mean you could of course try to find a loophole in any geas generated, which would simply be a contested intelligence check.
*With a 36 Int (+13) wizard and a perhaps 20 Int (+5) fighter even assuming the wizard takes no extra precautions the fighter only has around an 18% chance of beating him.
The above is just my interpretation of the rules, however I would love your take on my entire statement, rather than just cherry picking and calling it hand-waving.
Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is only 30k. And thats +43 without Moment of Prescience.
Initiative isn't an opposed check.
now that my favorite easily accessible online 3.5 edition resource is shut down.
Is that the Moment of Prescience that doesn't likely work for initiative? Or if it does, then a mythic character can have an xtra +20 to initiative as well. Which may not be bad as it would add 20 more to stealth.
The caster gets +25 from it.
I'm not typing it out Marroar Gellantara, mostly because I would define each word of it. And also because it's not the method I would use to defeat a Fighter. But if you don't believe I can come up with an airtight Command, no problem. Can you get back to me on how your Fighter can win?
Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is only 30k. And thats +43 without Moment of Prescience.Initiate isn't an opposed check.
It most certainly is. Someone is going to win it.
Asking for details of such a command before allowing it to work is in my opinion the same as asking for the exact wording of a speech or the exact mechanics of a sword exchange.If the wizard can hand-wave the command, then my lawyer can hand-wave the loophole for it.
In PF legalese is WIS based. Int does not help you at all.
(No craft skill helps you speak, since it is not making 'something' as assumed to be defined in the rules)I submit the following assertions.
*Profession (Barrister) is used to operate as a legal professional and is based on precedent and legal system understanding and not is required or desired in the making of commands and geases, as many activities and skillsets require exacting language.PRD Link
*Intelligence is directly correlated to how well your character reasons. PRD Link
*This would mean you could of course try to find a loophole in any geas generated, which would simply be a contested intelligence check.
*With a 36 Int (+13) wizard and a perhaps 20 Int (+5) fighter even assuming the wizard takes no extra precautions the fighter only has around an 18% chance of beating him.
The above is just my interpretation of the rules, however I would love your take on my entire statement, rather than just cherry picking and calling it hand-waving.
1. You said my lawyer couldn't lawyer. It may not be "needed" but it is an answer
2. Posted fighter has an INT of 27
It most certainly is. Someone is going to win it.Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is only 30k. And thats +43 without Moment of Prescience.Initiate isn't an opposed check.
No, you don't "succeed" on initiative checks. Your "win" doesn't mean the other person "fails" initiative. It isn't an opposed check.
Is that the Moment of Prescience that doesn't likely work for initiative? Or if it does, then a mythic character can have an xtra +20 to initiative as well. Which may not be bad as it would add 20 more to stealth.The caster gets +25 from it.
I'm not typing it out Marroar Gellantara, mostly because I would define each word of it. And also because it's not the method I would use to defeat a Fighter. But if you don't believe I can come up with an airtight Command, no problem. Can you get back to me on how your Fighter can win?
I shoot the wizard with arrows! I told you. Now, what are you doing with the rest of your turn after you cast disjunction 75 ft away from me?
Is that the Moment of Prescience that doesn't likely work for initiative? Or if it does, then a mythic character can have an xtra +20 to initiative as well. Which may not be bad as it would add 20 more to stealth.The caster gets +25 from it.
I'm not typing it out Marroar Gellantara, mostly because I would define each word of it. And also because it's not the method I would use to defeat a Fighter. But if you don't believe I can come up with an airtight Command, no problem. Can you get back to me on how your Fighter can win?
At some point in this multi million year struggle, your caster will be in melee range and will lose. Your clones will die. Your phylactery will break. Your demiplane will crumble. You are fighting entropy.
The wizard can't win.
When it comes to who has to retreat first, nearly every tactic you have listed involves retreating.
You argue that the fighter may be the one to die first over the course of a few weeks of combat. This might be true? I don't see what the point of arguing that is. You didn't show that the wizard could drive off the fighter nor did you show that you could permanently kill the fighter.
EDIT: If you have no air-tight command then the trick fails. So much for limited wish Geas auto-win.
It most certainly is. Someone is going to win it.Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is only 30k. And thats +43 without Moment of Prescience.Initiate isn't an opposed check.
I will respectfully disagree.
Initiative is a sorting mechanism and does not reference opposed checks, winning or loosing in anyway.
This defines opposed checks.
You are opposed in determining who acts first. The result that exceeds the other is the successful one.
It most certainly is. Someone is going to win it.Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is only 30k. And thats +43 without Moment of Prescience.Initiate isn't an opposed check.I will respectfully disagree.
Initiative is a sorting mechanism and does not reference opposed checks, winning or loosing in anyway.
This defines opposed checks.
That only defines opposing skill checks. We are talking about opposing ability checks.
I don't need to win initiative. There is nothing the caster can do that matters.
As I mentioned, another probable hole in the invincible wizard. I don't even believe that RAI or RAW would call init an opposed ability check. If so, as you've said before... cite it.
And seriously, geas is easy to get around. So that isn't a point. Actually there are other language dependent spells that are nasty too. Deafening yourself before fighting a caster is a pretty good idea.
That only defines opposing skill checks. We are talking about opposing ability checks.It most certainly is. Someone is going to win it.Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is only 30k. And thats +43 without Moment of Prescience.Initiate isn't an opposed check.I will respectfully disagree.
Initiative is a sorting mechanism and does not reference opposed checks, winning or loosing in anyway.
This defines opposed checks.
You're equivocating, I have granted you the initiative win. You cast a quickened disjunction 75 ft away using your ungodly inexpensive staff. You have a standard and move action remaining. How do you use them?
I don't need to win initiative. There is nothing the caster can do that matters.
Other then keep defeating you until they can get their hands on an artifact, I guess not.
I don't need to win initiative. There is nothing the caster can do that matters.Other then keep defeating you until they can get their hands on an artifact, I guess not.
You haven't shown how the wizards can even harm my fighter, much less kill him.
Even your explosive runes trick is full of holes.
You're equivocating, I have granted you the initiative win. You cast a quickened disjunction using your ungodly inexpensive staff. You have a standard and move action remaining. How do you use it?That only defines opposing skill checks. We are talking about opposing ability checks.It most certainly is. Someone is going to win it.Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is only 30k. And thats +43 without Moment of Prescience.Initiate isn't an opposed check.I will respectfully disagree.
Initiative is a sorting mechanism and does not reference opposed checks, winning or loosing in anyway.
This defines opposed checks.
Cast Maximized Time Stop. Move next to you. (If needed) Place shrunken Acid package (move action to retrieve from Handy Haversack, free action to drop. - 1 Round apparent time. Cast an Extended Mage's Magnificent Enclosure (presently suppressed by my Spellbane) on your area. Move away. (Thus trapping you in the MME and the Acid will revert to normal size and fill it) - 2 Rounds apparent time.
Cackle manically - 3 Rounds apparent time.
Ponder Breakfast - 4 Rounds apparent time.
Find cover - 5 Rounds apparent time.
Apparent Time ends and you are stuck in an Antimagic Field taking 10d6 acid a turn. I'll probably stick around to watch from a Projected Image on my second round of non-apparent time.
Edit @ Shisumo: Without any Magic Items, Spells, or Supernatural Abilities... I think the Fighter is going to die. 40 Hardness and 440 hit points is going to take awhile.
I don't need to win initiative. There is nothing the caster can do that matters.Other then keep defeating you until they can get their hands on an artifact, I guess not.You haven't shown how the wizards can even harm my fighter, much less kill him.
Even your explosive runes trick is full of holes.
People have been trying to find a hole in my Explosive Runes stacks for a long time. Maybe today will be the day. What holes?
Wow... do not pay attention to what other people type? Anything that provides unbeatable SR or immunity to 3rd lvl spells will get past explosive runes. Which was stated as your actual first actions.
And a wall is your defense? Lol. Hardness 40 and 200 hp. Lets go find someone from the mythic threads that can beat that down with a fraction of an attack. They should be on you while you're cackling, in the AMF.
And yet another spell from an unusual, not used book. Maybe wizards aren't all that powerful.
You're equivocating, I have granted you the initiative win. You cast a quickened disjunction using your ungodly inexpensive staff. You have a standard and move action remaining. How do you use it?That only defines opposing skill checks. We are talking about opposing ability checks.It most certainly is. Someone is going to win it.Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is only 30k. And thats +43 without Moment of Prescience.Initiate isn't an opposed check.I will respectfully disagree.
Initiative is a sorting mechanism and does not reference opposed checks, winning or loosing in anyway.
This defines opposed checks.
Cast Maximized Time Stop. Move next to you. (If needed) Place shrunken Acid package (move action to retrieve from Handy Haversack, free action to drop. - 1 Round apparent time. Cast an Extended Mage's Magnificent Enclosure (presently suppressed by my Spellbane) on your area. Move away. (Thus trapping you in the MME and the Acid will revert to normal size and fill it) - 2 Rounds apparent time.
Cackle manically - 3 Rounds apparent time.
Ponder Breakfast - 4 Rounds apparent time.
Find cover - 5 Rounds apparent time.
Apparent Time ends and you are stuck in an Antimagic Field taking 10d6 acid a turn. I'll probably stick around to watch from a Projected Image on my second round of non-apparent time.
Edit @ Shisumo: Without any Magic Items, Spells, or Supernatural Abilities... I think the Fighter is going to die.
You have to score a touch attack for the enclosure which you cannot do in a time stop. Also, you cannot cast a spell that you have spellbane selected for.
People have been trying to find a hole in my Explosive Runes stacks for a long time. Maybe today will be the day. What holes?I don't need to win initiative. There is nothing the caster can do that matters.Other then keep defeating you until they can get their hands on an artifact, I guess not.You haven't shown how the wizards can even harm my fighter, much less kill him.
Even your explosive runes trick is full of holes.
Dude, already in the thread. Contingency to activate lesser globe of invulnerability.