Mythic Fighter vs Wizard!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Anzyr wrote:
I added nothing to Contact other Plane. I will concede that Initiative is not an opposed Dexterity check. However, I did not add anything to Moment of Prescience's language to make that claim. I have also never mentioned casting spells at time that I couldn't. Those are some pretty false claims there, please be more careful in the future.

I should have included more quotes.

You used Contact other plane to determine the future. I do not see that listed. Or the answer could always be 'maybe'.
You cited using emergency shield to avoid being attacked. With my thought that you'd be flat footed; you cannot use immediate actions while being flat footed.

So my claims are not false.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Well, the clone / simulacrum horde has the much larger issue of requiring infinite wealth being given via a spell that doesn't show up on the PRD. Which, unless I'm mistaken in how this kind of thing works, means its not PFS legal, so it's not something any wizard can just pick up when they want. Probably intended that way.

Well, Blood money actually IS PFS-legal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Seannoss wrote:
Another poster added rules to Gate
Eh. You can hold the gate open. It seems to imply unrestricted travel in both directions.

It does for creatures. Gate refers to plane shift which mentions nothing about objects.

Believable, maybe realistic too, but not mentioned in the gate spell.


Shisumo wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
On the other hand, I don't think I'd allow the wizard to arbitrarily switch between considering the item(s) with the runes to be one object or several from one instant to the next, based on which ever one is most helpful either.
Good thing he's placing the runes while is time is stopped in a Maximized Time Stop then hey?
Yep. For five rounds. One of which is spent teleporting and another is spent summoning a nalfeshnee, leaving three left. By my count, that leaves you with three move actions to grab and item and three standard actions to place it. Are three runes really going to kill the fighter? I rather doubt it.

Drop an Item is a free action. So you can retrieve a stack as a move action, move your speed as a standard action and drop the stack as a free action. You are not dropping an individual rune, you are dropping a stack of them bundled together. Considering they can be paper thin, a stack is going to hold quite a few. And that's assuming a Swift Action Spell isn't used to move in which case you can drop 2 stacks around for 6 stacks in 3 turns.


Avh wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Well, the clone / simulacrum horde has the much larger issue of requiring infinite wealth being given via a spell that doesn't show up on the PRD. Which, unless I'm mistaken in how this kind of thing works, means its not PFS legal, so it's not something any wizard can just pick up when they want. Probably intended that way.
Well, Blood money actually IS PFS-legal.

Who needs blood money or non PRD sources?

Simulacrum yourself for 5K in actual gold. You actually know RAW what that snowcone will have and do not need to request that the GM create a monster for you. 50 of them cost 250K which is a good chunk of your wealth but does fit.


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As a 20th level wizard, the following would be true for me (other people may have other tactics). I would have a clone in wait which is like having an extra life stockpiled, which means that if we started three feet from each other and the Fighter won initiative then he would kill the first me. At which point I would wake up having seen where the Fighter was, proceed to buff, then greater teleport back to the fight where the asswhupping could begin proper. This is in addition to my contingency to greater teleport to safety (thanks Summoner) with the trigger of "If an attack would kill me" which would most likely remove the need for me to waste my respawn on losing initiative.

As for fighting said mythic warrior-guy, I'd initially begin with a Knowledge check to identify any special defenses inherent to his statblock. Afterwhich, I'd use disjunction to ensure any buffs were removed and I'd be able to see and identify which magic items took the plunge thanks to arcane sight. Once I was certain irritations were eliminated (such as death ward, mind blank, or even spell turning) I'd then begin with a few different approaches depending on how much of a threat I viewed my opponent as.

If threat level was low, I would probably just play tag with him using a wand of enervation and pop him with negative levels. If threat level was a little higher, I might drop some cloudkill spells in the area (assuming any protective items he was wearing were disjoined) and wait him out. If his threat level increased to "irritation" which is pretty high really, then I'd probably use a limited wish to drop a -7 on his save against my next spell, cast persistent flesh to stone, and then cast fabricate to turn his remains into a coffee table to put in my study.


The one who wins is the one who sees that no one will concede victory (ever) and leaves to do something productive. ;)

Scarab Sages

Anzyr wrote:
Each Explosive Rune is a separate souse so Absorb Blow will not help. Also Explosive Runes does Force damage, so I have no idea what Fire resistance is supposed to do.
Absorb Blow (Su): wrote:
As an immediate action, whenever you take hit point damage from a single source (such as a dragon's breath, a spell, or a weapon), you can expend one use of mythic power to reduce the damage you take from that source by 5 per tier (to a minimum of 0 points of damage taken). If you have another ability or effect that reduces damage (such as protection from energy), reduce the damage with the absorb blow ability before applying any other damage-reducing effects. For every 10 points of damage that this ability prevents, for 1 minute you gain DR 1/epic and 5 points of resistance against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. The DR and resistances stack with any other DR and resistances that you have.

Emphasis Mine.

After you absorb the first attack, fire resistance blocks all damage from each subsequent rune.


Roxx wrote:
The one who wins is the one who sees that no one will concede victory (ever) and leaves to do something productive. ;)

Hey now! Some of us are using this time to read the Overlord Light Novel translations.


@Ashiel
Your plan requires losing the duel
Many of your tactics would fail
You do not permanently end the fighter.
You even lose the first to die measure.

You would need to provide stats to prove that your buffs would ever come close to mine or any mythic fighter's stats.

Liberty's Edge

Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
On the other hand, I don't think I'd allow the wizard to arbitrarily switch between considering the item(s) with the runes to be one object or several from one instant to the next, based on which ever one is most helpful either.
Good thing he's placing the runes while is time is stopped in a Maximized Time Stop then hey?
Yep. For five rounds. One of which is spent teleporting and another is spent summoning a nalfeshnee, leaving three left. By my count, that leaves you with three move actions to grab and item and three standard actions to place it. Are three runes really going to kill the fighter? I rather doubt it.
Drop an Item is a free action. So you can retrieve a stack as a move action, move your speed as a standard action and drop the stack as a free action. You are not dropping an individual rune, you are dropping a stack of them bundled together. Considering they can be paper thin, a stack is going to hold quite a few. And that's assuming a Swift Action Spell isn't used to move in which case you can drop 2 stacks around for 6 stacks in 3 turns.

Like I said, you want to make it one object or several whichever is better for you. I wouldn't allow it - treating thr stack as one item means there's only o ne set of runes.

I also wouldn't allow you to violate the line of effect rules to dispel runes that are covered.


Artanthos wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Each Explosive Rune is a separate souse so Absorb Blow will not help. Also Explosive Runes does Force damage, so I have no idea what Fire resistance is supposed to do.
Absorb Blow (Su): wrote:
As an immediate action, whenever you take hit point damage from a single source (such as a dragon's breath, a spell, or a weapon), you can expend one use of mythic power to reduce the damage you take from that source by 5 per tier (to a minimum of 0 points of damage taken). If you have another ability or effect that reduces damage (such as protection from energy), reduce the damage with the absorb blow ability before applying any other damage-reducing effects. For every 10 points of damage that this ability prevents, for 1 minute you gain DR 1/epic and 5 points of resistance against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. The DR and resistances stack with any other DR and resistances that you have.

Emphasis Mine.

After you absorb the first attack, fire resistance blocks all damage from each subsequent rune.

While they both begin with "F", Fire and Force are different damage types and Fire Resistance will not help you against Force damage.


Artanthos wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Each Explosive Rune is a separate souse so Absorb Blow will not help. Also Explosive Runes does Force damage, so I have no idea what Fire resistance is supposed to do.
Absorb Blow (Su): wrote:
As an immediate action, whenever you take hit point damage from a single source (such as a dragon's breath, a spell, or a weapon), you can expend one use of mythic power to reduce the damage you take from that source by 5 per tier (to a minimum of 0 points of damage taken). If you have another ability or effect that reduces damage (such as protection from energy), reduce the damage with the absorb blow ability before applying any other damage-reducing effects. For every 10 points of damage that this ability prevents, for 1 minute you gain DR 1/epic and 5 points of resistance against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. The DR and resistances stack with any other DR and resistances that you have.

Emphasis Mine.

After you absorb the first attack, fire resistance blocks all damage from each subsequent rune.

Except they don't do Fire damage. So you can only reduce the damage from 1 rune, and then take the damage from every single other runes without a way to ignore them.

"You trace mystic runes upon a book, map, scroll, or similar object bearing written information. The explosive runes detonate when read, dealing 6d6 points of force damage. "


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I believe Shisumo's hang up is that you had mentioned all of these 1000s of runes were in a handy haversack. That item mentions that you may remove one object as a move action, not a stack of similar objects.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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No, each subsequent rune is still dealing force damage. You'd get no free resist. You'd have to find a way to gain force resistance.

Contingency does not have divinatory abilities attached to it. It has no way of determining if an attack is lethal before it lands.
So a Greater Teleport 'if an attack is going to kill me' is going to fail. 1,, we can assume the fighter is mind blanked and any divinatory info gathering like that will fail and 2, there's nothing in the spell that says it can actually DO that.

Now, you could word it so that if you DO take lethal damage, you get Teleported (that is something that happens to you, not something that MIGHT happen)...except you're now dead, and can't determine where the Greater Teleport will take you, you need Word of Recall or something to do that.

Furthermore, popping into a Clone is completely ambiguous as to how long it's going to take to 'wake up'. You also won't have any of your gear on you, since it's on your dead self. It also doesn't take into account the various soul-trapping weapons out there designed to stop exactly these kind of body-hopping shenanigans.

The whole geas thing is a cop-out...in earlier editions, you could resist the spell at cost of the penalty. They also redid Scarabs of Protection, which gave you a save against no-save spells at base 20, modifiers from there. So yeah, it reminds me of that 9th level 'dagger of something' spell from FR where you basically turned somebody, anywhere, into your puppet or killed them from afar.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Seannoss wrote:
I believe Shisumo's hang up is that you had mentioned all of these 1000s of runes were in a handy haversack. That item mentions that you may remove one object as a move action, not a stack of similar objects.

Now, now, a bundle of papers can indeed be treated as one object.

==Aelryinth


I kind of assumed a mundane sachel charge style myself.


Aelryinth wrote:
Seannoss wrote:
I believe Shisumo's hang up is that you had mentioned all of these 1000s of runes were in a handy haversack. That item mentions that you may remove one object as a move action, not a stack of similar objects.

Now, now, a bundle of papers can indeed be treated as one object.

==Aelryinth

This, but as Trogdar puts it, you can have a separate Sack filled just with bundles of Explosive Runes.

Liberty's Edge

Which still doesn't address the line of effect problem.


Shisumo wrote:
Which still doesn't address the line of effect problem.

What line of effect problem? Think bundle of printer paper, not rolled up parchments. Each paper has all 4 sides exposed.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Technically, it's not a problem, as the first rune going off would destroy/disturb the one underneath it, which would also detonate, etc. Instead of one big explosion, you'd get a chain so fast it would amount to the same thing.

==Aelryinth


That awkward moment when no one is countering your snowcone + magic missile strat with all stats, spells prepared, and gear spelled out.


Aelryinth wrote:
Technically, it's not a problem, as the first rune going off would destroy/disturb the one underneath it, which would also detonate, etc. Instead of one big explosion, you'd get a chain so fast it would amount to the same thing.

Runes do not explode under that condition. As per spell.

No boom chain.

Liberty's Edge

Anzyr wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Which still doesn't address the line of effect problem.
What line of effect problem? Think bundle of printer paper, not rolled up parchments. Each paper has all 4 sides exposed.

Sorry, no. The spell effect is the runes themselves, not the paper they're on. The papers are not magic items. If the runes are not exposed, the dispel can't hit them.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Technically, it's not a problem, as the first rune going off would destroy/disturb the one underneath it, which would also detonate, etc. Instead of one big explosion, you'd get a chain so fast it would amount to the same thing.

Runes do not explode under that condition. As per spell.

No boom chain.

Each page has all 4 sides exposed and thus will be affected by the area version of Greater Dispel.

This is not true. Greater Dispel doesn't affect the runes, it affects the objects.

Greater Dispel Magic wrote:
When greater dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot-radius burst. Roll one dispel check and apply that check to each creature in the area, as if targeted by dispel magic. For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, apply the dispel check as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sorry, I was going off of what you said earlier about the haversack. And no, by English definitions a bundle or a stack is not an object. Those would be more than one object.

Liberty's Edge

Marroar Gellantara wrote:
That awkward moment when no one is countering your snowcone + magic missile strat with all stats, spells prepared, and gear spelled out.

That's because it's an incomplete proposal. The previously-offered fighter has true seeing, so just saying "my wizard is invisible" doesn't keep him from being rather thoroughly dead.


Anzyr wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Technically, it's not a problem, as the first rune going off would destroy/disturb the one underneath it, which would also detonate, etc. Instead of one big explosion, you'd get a chain so fast it would amount to the same thing.

Runes do not explode under that condition. As per spell.

No boom chain.

Each page has all 4 sides exposed and thus will be affected by the area version of Greater Dispel.

He was saying that one rune exploding would cause another rune to explode.

Which it does not.

Also, how does a page have 4 sides? They have either 2 or 6 sides.


Seannoss wrote:
Sorry, I was going off of what you said earlier about the haversack. And no, by English definitions a bundle or a stack is not an object. Those would be more than one object.

I would argue it is. Since a book is effectively a stack of papers bound together. However, if you don't feel this way as stated above, there are other options.


Shisumo wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
That awkward moment when no one is countering your snowcone + magic missile strat with all stats, spells prepared, and gear spelled out.
That's because it's an incomplete proposal. The previously-offered fighter has true seeing, so just saying "my wizard is invisible" doesn't keep him from being rather thoroughly dead.

True seeing has a very limited range.

A range the main wizard is outside of.

He also has mind blank up which blocks true-sight.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Technically, it's not a problem, as the first rune going off would destroy/disturb the one underneath it, which would also detonate, etc. Instead of one big explosion, you'd get a chain so fast it would amount to the same thing.

Runes do not explode under that condition. As per spell.

No boom chain.

Each page has all 4 sides exposed and thus will be affected by the area version of Greater Dispel.

He was saying that one rune exploding would cause another rune to explode.

Which it does not.

Also, how does a page have 4 sides? They have either 2 or 6 sides.

I am not saying that though. I am saying that if you stack a piece of paper on top of another, that does not grant complete cover as each side (edge) of the paper of the paper is still exposed. If you have one person lay on top of another person, that will likewise not grant full cover. Thus Greater Dispel Magic's Area version will affect each object (paper).


Anzyr wrote:
I am not saying that though. I am saying that if you stack a piece of paper on top of another, that does not grant complete cover as each side (edge) of the paper of the paper is still exposed. If you have one person lay on top of another person, that will likewise not grant full cover. Thus Greater Dispel Magic's Area version will affect each object (paper).

I wasn't talking about that though.

You still never found a good way for your minion to survive long enough to cast greater dispel magic.


I can just summon it while Time is Stopped. It acts on my turn once the Time Stop ends.

Problem solved.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
I am not saying that though. I am saying that if you stack a piece of paper on top of another, that does not grant complete cover as each side (edge) of the paper of the paper is still exposed. If you have one person lay on top of another person, that will likewise not grant full cover. Thus Greater Dispel Magic's Area version will affect each object (paper).

I wasn't talking about that though.

You still never found a good way for your minion to survive long enough to cast greater dispel magic.

I think having more than one would be pretty feasible, not to mention that the fighter now has to make a choice between killing the monsters or attacking the wizard. Its a dilemma.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
I am not saying that though. I am saying that if you stack a piece of paper on top of another, that does not grant complete cover as each side (edge) of the paper of the paper is still exposed. If you have one person lay on top of another person, that will likewise not grant full cover. Thus Greater Dispel Magic's Area version will affect each object (paper).

I wasn't talking about that though.

You still never found a good way for your minion to survive long enough to cast greater dispel magic.

You don't even need the minion, I think that minion is here for safety measure.

For example : you can stick a lot of papers on a board, teleport it at the feet of the fighter during a Time stop, and then prepare your own Dispel greater to dispel your own runes while using a lower CL (11).
This trick would work for 95% of your runes at CL 20 and 100% of the time if you have an item that boost your CL by 1 (such as the ioun stone).

I believe 40-50 runes should be enough to kill the fighter.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Except that, once again, there are ways around taking damage from explosive runes.

Although, after dying several times, I think this trick may start to work. Utter fromage with explosive runes but legal at least.

Which is why the better option, like most rocket tag, is making sure the wizard never goes. Probably not that hard.


The Wizard is very likely to go first even with all the advantages that Mythic provides. And even then a contingency is likely to ensure survival. Of course that's assuming its actually the Wizard in the first place and not a Projected Image or the Wizard using Astral Projection.

Shadow Lodge

I like how Anzyr's ultimate answer to everything is that his wizurd constantly walks around with hundreds upon hundreds of explosive runes. I sure hope nobody ever cast a weak Dispel Magic at him while he's pulling them out of his ass/backpack/spell component pouch/fanny pack.


Kthulhu wrote:
I like how Anzyr's ultimate answer to everything is that his wizurd constantly walks around with hundreds upon hundreds of explosive runes. I sure hope nobody ever cast a weak Dispel Magic at him while he's pulling them out of his ass/backpack/spell component pouch/fanny pack.

For like the 9th time; They are pulled out when Time is Stopped.


Anzyr wrote:

I can just summon it while Time is Stopped. It acts on my turn once the Time Stop ends.

Problem solved.

When time stop ends so does your turn. Now it is the fighter's turn.

Either you or the minion are now dead.


I find it astounding that this thread has gotten to 500+ posts so rapidly considering it's a hypothetical situation that will literally never happen in an actual game.


Avh wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
I am not saying that though. I am saying that if you stack a piece of paper on top of another, that does not grant complete cover as each side (edge) of the paper of the paper is still exposed. If you have one person lay on top of another person, that will likewise not grant full cover. Thus Greater Dispel Magic's Area version will affect each object (paper).

I wasn't talking about that though.

You still never found a good way for your minion to survive long enough to cast greater dispel magic.

You don't even need the minion, I think that minion is here for safety measure.

For example : you can stick a lot of papers on a board, teleport it at the feet of the fighter during a Time stop, and then prepare your own Dispel greater to dispel your own runes while using a lower CL (11).
This trick would work for 95% of your runes at CL 20 and 100% of the time if you have an item that boost your CL by 1 (such as the ioun stone).

I believe 40-50 runes should be enough to kill the fighter.

Nope

Because your dispel succeeds and thus the runes do not explode.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

We....or I have shown examples of how the wizard is not likely to go first. My first attack would not be harmful, so not likely to trigger a contingency. If I hit, them AMF field would slam into place.

While I admit to not knowing high level wizard tricks, you do not realize how much mythic characters can do. We haven't even brought up legendary items yet which would enable the fighter to do anything and everything the wizard can do w/o outside help or spending a copper.

And funny point by Kthulhu.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

I can just summon it while Time is Stopped. It acts on my turn once the Time Stop ends.

Problem solved.

When time stop ends so does your turn. Now it is the fighter's turn.

Either you or the minion are now dead.

I only used my Swift and Standard. I still have a move and my minion would get to act regardless.


Saldiven wrote:
I find it astounding that this thread has gotten to 500+ posts so rapidly considering it's a hypothetical situation that will literally never happen in an actual game.

Griffith is a LG demi-God who made a name for himself via adventuring.

My nameless lich wizard is CE and is challenging to the fighter to a duel to stave off demi-lichdom through action.


spell immunity explosive ruins also shuts down that combo.


Seannoss wrote:

We....or I have shown examples of how the wizard is not likely to go first. My first attack would not be harmful, so not likely to trigger a contingency. If I hit, them AMF field would slam into place.

While I admit to not knowing high level wizard tricks, you do not realize how much mythic characters can do. We haven't even brought up legendary items yet which would enable the fighter to do anything and everything the wizard can do w/o outside help or spending a copper.

And funny point by Kthulhu.

We already covered that high level Casters are immune to AMF.


Anzyr wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

I can just summon it while Time is Stopped. It acts on my turn once the Time Stop ends.

Problem solved.

When time stop ends so does your turn. Now it is the fighter's turn.

Either you or the minion are now dead.

I only used my Swift and Standard. I still have a move and my minion would get to act regardless.

No that is not how time stop works. It does not stop your time.

After timestop your turn ends.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

I can just summon it while Time is Stopped. It acts on my turn once the Time Stop ends.

Problem solved.

When time stop ends so does your turn. Now it is the fighter's turn.

Either you or the minion are now dead.

I only used my Swift and Standard. I still have a move and my minion would get to act regardless.

No that is not how time stop works. It does not stop your time.

After timestop your turn ends.

Citation needed. It says nothing of the sort in the spell. I will absolutely still have my move action, thank you very much.


Seannoss wrote:

We....or I have shown examples of how the wizard is not likely to go first. My first attack would not be harmful, so not likely to trigger a contingency. If I hit, them AMF field would slam into place.

While I admit to not knowing high level wizard tricks, you do not realize how much mythic characters can do. We haven't even brought up legendary items yet which would enable the fighter to do anything and everything the wizard can do w/o outside help or spending a copper.

And funny point by Kthulhu.

That last wizard tactic I posted remains uncountered.

Legendary items have already been mentioned. That is how my first wizard tactic was countered.

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