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OK then I will acomplish the wizard's death using actual spells: Fighter(with a high UMD) contacts the planes after you do. Finds out you know the fight is coming. Finds out you have a demiplane. Finds out you have a pile of explosive runes. Finds out when you are going to be next to the pile. Teleports in. Dispell. Wizard dead.
There doesn't need to be. I'm using abilities that a 20th level Wizard has. You are not using abilities that a 20th level Fighter mythic or otherwise has. Thus fiat.And I use the same abilities each time I discuss this. So they are known.
Knowledge: Local + Knowledge: Arcane or Knowledge: Planes.
You don't need magic to discover the wizards tactics or base of operations. Mind Blank blocks scrying, not knowledge checks.

kikidmonkey |
Anzyr wrote:Seannoss wrote:52 is nothing though. I'm at +43 before Moment of Prescience.Once again.... when does the wizard (or especially the minion) get to act? The fighter just posted can go on 52... mythics can go faster than that.
Explosive ruins is tricky, but that relies on a minion that won't compare to either of the characters mentioned here. And, if the wizard has a minion, does the fighter get one too?
And I'm undetectable.
Stand around rolling initiative all day. When are you acting?
The wizard is just as undetectable. If not more so, what with mind blank, invisibility, and demi-planes.

Anzyr |

Anzyr wrote:OK then I will acomplish the wizard's death using actual spells: Fighter(with a high UMD) contacts the planes after you do. Finds out you know the fight is coming. Finds out you have a demiplane. Finds out you have a pile of explosive runes. Finds out when you are going to be next to the pile. Teleports in. Dispell. Wizard dead.Shadowkire wrote:Shadowkire wrote:BTW Anzyr, I thought that was how we are fighting, with fiats. Because there are certainly no numbers or stats here.Anzyr wrote:Its a spell, one you use.Shadowkire wrote:That is fiat. Having a god help you is not an ability or magic item.Anzyr wrote:The god that owes the fighter a favor, and whom you have been contacting, teleports the fighter into your demiplane while you are standing next to your stockpile. Fighter hits the stockpile with dispel. Wizard dies.Shadowkire wrote:Or is the wizard coming back with those 1000s of explosive runes. Does that mean all the fighter has to do is ready an action to dispel them all and then the wizard takes 9k?I use free days on the fast time plane to stockpile them. I don't need to prepare some for a given fight.There doesn't need to be. I'm using abilities that a 20th level Wizard has. You are not using abilities that a 20th level Fighter mythic or otherwise has. Thus fiat.
And I use the same abilities each time I discuss this. So they are known.
Doing so will blow most of your WBL. And the Wizard is only next to the pile while time is stopped, which is unhelpful for your tactic. If you mean while the Wizard is preparing them on their demiplane, you are out of luck as the area is hallowed to prevent teleportation. This of course costs the Wizard nothing out of their WBL.

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Artanthos wrote:The wizard is just as undetectable. If not more so, what with mind blank, invisibility, and demi-planes.Anzyr wrote:Seannoss wrote:52 is nothing though. I'm at +43 before Moment of Prescience.Once again.... when does the wizard (or especially the minion) get to act? The fighter just posted can go on 52... mythics can go faster than that.
Explosive ruins is tricky, but that relies on a minion that won't compare to either of the characters mentioned here. And, if the wizard has a minion, does the fighter get one too?
And I'm undetectable.
Stand around rolling initiative all day. When are you acting?
The Demi-Plane is the weakness in that argument. I can use skills to find that. Now I know where you live, the rest is patience.

Anzyr |

kikidmonkey wrote:The Demi-Plane is the weakness in that argument. I can use skills to find that. Now I know where you live, the rest is patience.Artanthos wrote:The wizard is just as undetectable. If not more so, what with mind blank, invisibility, and demi-planes.Anzyr wrote:Seannoss wrote:52 is nothing though. I'm at +43 before Moment of Prescience.Once again.... when does the wizard (or especially the minion) get to act? The fighter just posted can go on 52... mythics can go faster than that.
Explosive ruins is tricky, but that relies on a minion that won't compare to either of the characters mentioned here. And, if the wizard has a minion, does the fighter get one too?
And I'm undetectable.
Stand around rolling initiative all day. When are you acting?
Ok. But you know.... the demiplane isn't just like an open field right? It has all the spare Simulacrums on top of more magic traps then you can shake a stick at.

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Doing so will blow most of your WBL. And the Wizard is only next to the pile while time is stopped, which is unhelpful for your tactic. If you mean while the Wizard is preparing them on their demiplane, you are out of luck as the area is hallowed to prevent teleportation. This of course costs the Wizard nothing out of their WBL.
While costing far less than all those wishes you've been tossing around to bypass the casting time of Geas. Or spending to make that demi-plane permanent.

Seannoss |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |

Moment of Prescience : This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, combat maneuver check, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw.
I've never heard of initiative as an opposed ability check. And if it is... then mythics have a way to add 20 more to their initiative roll.
And Anzyr... thanks for all this (seriously!) I do not play high levels much and after this discussion have zero interest in it ever. And if I run something at higher levels, this will give me a list of things to ban/nerf.

Shadowkire |
Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.
How did you get a spell lost over 10k years ago? By by WBL/soul. Fighter wins with assistance from debt collectors.

kikidmonkey |
Anzyr wrote:How did you get a spell lost over 10k years ago? By by WBL/soul. Fighter wins with assistance from debt collectors.Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.
legend lore.

Bradley Mickle |

My fighter I'd take to this fight...
Unnamed Hero
Human fighter (unbreakable) 20/Champion 10 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 49)
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +20; Senses blindsense 30 ft.; Perception +26
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Defense
--------------------
AC 32, touch 16, flat-footed 26 (+11 armor, +6 Dex, +5 natural)
hp 450 (20d10+250)
Fort +29, Ref +21, Will +19 (+5 vs. mind-affecting effects)
Defensive Abilities evasion, hard to kill, mythic saving throws, stalwart, unflinching +5, unstoppable; DR 5/—; Immune mind-affecting effects; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5; SR 13
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 70 ft.
Melee +5 corrosive burst ghost touch lifesurge legendary adamantine elven curve blade +44/+39/+34/+29 (1d10+31/15-20/×3 plus 1d6 acid)
Special Attacks mythic power (23/day, surge +1d12)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 40, Dex 23, Con 31, Int 15, Wis 22, Cha 10
Base Atk +20; CMB +35 (+39 grapple); CMD 51
Feats Blind-fight[M], Blinding Critical, Critical Focus, Critical Mastery, Deafening Critical, Defiant Luck[ARG], Diehard, Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven curve blade), Extra Path Ability[M], Great Fortitude, Greater Weapon Focus (elven curve blade), Greater Weapon Specialization (elven curve blade), Heroic Defiance[APG], Heroic Recovery[APG], Improved Critical[M], Improved Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack[M], Strong Comeback[UC], Weapon Focus (elven curve blade)[M], Weapon Specialization (elven curve blade)
Traits deft dodger
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+11 to jump, +22 to jump), Fly +26, Handle Animal +23, Intimidate +23, Perception +26, Survival +29, Use Magic Device +20
Languages Common
SQ amazing initiative, armor mastery, armor training 2, everlasting, foe-biting, force of will, immortal, legendary champion, legendary hero, legendary power, legendary surge, miraculous recovery, mythic bond, quick recovery, recuperation, rejuvenating, undetectable, unlimited endurance, unstoppable strike, unyielding
Combat Gear black feather fan, bracers of sworn vengeance, spectral shroud, truesight goggles; Other Gear +5 expeditious mirrored spell dodging spell resistance (13) mithral chainmail, +5 corrosive burst ghost touch lifesurge legendary adamantine elven curve blade, amulet of natural armor +5, belt of physical perfection +6, blind helm, cloak of quick reflexes +5/+6, headband of aerial agility (wis +6), inescapable gloves, manual of bodily health +5, manual of gainful exercise +5, manual of quickness of action +5, ring of energy dampening, ring of evasion, seven-league boots, tome of clear thought +5, tome of understanding +5, 852,266 pp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Amazing Initiative (1/round) (Ex) As a free action, use 1 power to gain an extra standard action (can't be used to cast a spell).
Blind-Fight [Mythic] As a swift action, use 1 power to ignore concealment miss chance for 10 rds.
Blinding Critical (DC 30) Critical hit blinds or dazzles target.
Blindsense (30 feet) (Ex) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Bracers of sworn vengeance (1/day) +1 to attack and +2d6 damage vs. sworn target, -2 versus other enemies.
Cloak of quick reflexes +5/+6 Spend 1 power as immediate action to reroll failed Reflex save.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Critical Master (Mythic) (Ex) Automatically confirm critical hits and do maximum damage.
Critical Mastery (2 Critical feats) Apply extra Critical feats to a critical hit rather than one.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Deafening Critical (DC 30) Critical hit deafens target.
Defiant Luck (1/day) Reroll a natural 1 on a save, or force a reroll of a critical hit confirmation roll.
Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at negative Hp.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Everlasting This ability grants its bearer limited immortality. While in contact with this item, the bonded creature doesn't age; doesn't need to eat, drink, or breathe; and doesn't suffer any ill effects from extreme heat or extreme cold.
An item must be a m
Fleet Charge (Ex) As a swift action, use 1 power to move speed & attack (+10 bonus, bypass all DR).
Fleet Warrior (Ex) You may move up to your full speed before or after making a full attack.
Foe-Biting When this item deals damage, its user can use mythic power to double the total amount of damage it deals. If the attack is a normal attack, the bearer can expend one use of legendary power to double the total amount of damage. If the attack is a conf
Force of Will (Ex) As an immediate action, use 1 power to reroll any d20, or force non-mythic to reroll.
Hard to Kill (Ex) Automatically stabilize when dying, and only die at neg Con x 2.
Headband of aerial agility (Wis +6) +1 CL for spells/extracts that grant flight.
Heroic Defiance (3/day) Delay the onset of a harmful affliction or condition until the end of your next turn.
Heroic Recovery (4/day) Can attempt an extra Fort save against a harmful condition or affliction.
Immortal (Su) Ressurrect next day, unless killed by an artifact's crit.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting effects You are immune to Mind-Affecting effects.
Impossible Speed (+100 feet) (Ex) Spend 1 power to increase speed by 10 ft/tier for 1 hour.
Improved Great Fortitude (1/day) Can re-roll a Fort save, but must take the second result.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Improved Lightning Reflexes (1/day) Can re-roll a Ref save, but must take the second result.
Legendary Champion (Ex) On a miss against a non-mythic foe, reroll and take 2nd result. Activate when roll 20 to regain 1 power.
Legendary Hero (Su) One use of mythic power is regained each hr.
Legendary Power (8/day) All legendary items contain a pool of power - at least two uses that recharge each day. This power is called legendary power, and it works differently than mythic power. Any creature bearing the item can expend the items uses of legendary power, whet
Legendary Surge (+1d6 to Attack Rolls - All, Combat Maneuver Checks) All legendary items have a legendary surge ability, similar to a mythic character's surge ability (see page 170). It can be used only on specific rolls or checks based on the nature or purpose of the legendary item - see the Legendary Surge sidebar o
Miraculous Recovery When making save vs ongoing effect, may roll twice and choose better roll.
Mythic Bond A legendary item is typically bonded to a single mythic creature. Others can pick up and use a legendary item for its basic functions (like hitting a foe with a legendary mace), but only the creature bonded to the item can utilize it fully.
A myth
Mythic Power (23/day, Surge +1d12) Use this power to perform your mythic abilities.
Mythic Saving Throws (Ex) A successful save negates all effects from a non-mythic source.
Mythic Sight (Sp) See illusions and magical deceptions for what they truly are, as if using true seeing.
Power Attack [Mythic] Use 1 power to eliminate attack penalties of Power attack for 1 min.
Quick Recovery (Ex) At 11th level, an unbreakable needs only 15 minutes of rest or to be subject to a healing spell or effect to recover from the fatigued condition. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Recuperation (Ex) Fully heal after 8 hrs rest, use 1 power and 1 hr to heal half and restore all non-mythic abilities.
Rejuvenating (100 hp) The bearer of this item can expend uses of legendary power to rejuvenate her body. As a standard action, she can expend one use of legendary power to heal herself of 10 points of damage per mythic tier she possesses. Alternatively, as a standard acti
Ring of energy dampening (1/day) Spend 1 power to be immune to one enrgy attack. Grant resist 5 vs. type affecting you to allies.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Seven-league boots (10 rounds/day) Act as boots of haste. Spend 1 power for a 7-league step.
Spectral shroud (1/day) Become incorporeal for 10 rounds and gain fly speed equal to half base speed.
Spell Resistance (13) You have Spell Resistance.
Spellscarred (SR 41) (Su) Call upon your mythic power to gain spell resistance, spending 1 power if it protects you.
Stalwart (Ex) If you succeed at a Fort or Will save for reduced effect, you take none instead.
Strong Comeback Add a +2 bonus on all rerolls
Surge (1d12) (Su) Use 1 power to increase any d20 roll by the listed amount.
Titan's Rage (10 rounds) (Su) Spend 1 power to increase by one size category.
Undetectable This grants its bonded user the ability to become utterly undetectable while invisible. While invisible and in physical contact with this item, the bonded creature can't be detected or scryed by any method.
Unflinching +5 (Ex) Gain +5 bonus to Will saves vs. mind-affecting effects
Unlimited Endurance (Ex) When exhausted, only suffer the effects of fatigued.
Unstoppable (Ex) As a free action, use 1 power to end one listed condition on yourself.
Unstoppable Strike This weapon bypasses all armor. The wielder can expend one use of legendary power when attacking to make the attack against touch AC. If she instead expends two uses of legendary power, the weapon also bypasses any deflection bonus to AC the target h
Unyielding A legendary item with this ability has double the hardness of a typical item of its type and triple the hit points. Furthermore, it's immune to all attempts to sunder it made by non-mythic creatures. This is a persistent ability.
Weapon Focus [Mythic, Elven curve blade] As a swift action, use 1 power to add half tier to attack with selected weapon.

Mathius |
I will try and build a wizard that can beat any mythic fighter out there.
What are the rules of engagement for the dual.
I propose standard WBL for both sides. The wizard has no idea at all that the fighter wants to kill him or even exists until the fighter attacks. The wizard spends 1 hour per day in a mage academy lecturing. The rest of the time he spends in a personal demiplane. He knows that he is exposed when teaching so protects himself accordingly. Spells a duration of 24 hours or more can be assumed to be always on.
I also assume a undetectable does not prevent me from know what square you are in once you attack.
Victory is incapacitation for more then a year or permanent death.

Shadowkire |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Shadowkire wrote:legend lore.Anzyr wrote:How did you get a spell lost over 10k years ago? By by WBL/soul. Fighter wins with assistance from debt collectors.Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.
Requires someone to know such a spell even existed at one point to even try and find it/piece it together.

Shadowkire |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will try and build a wizard that can beat any mythic fighter out there.
What are the rules of engagement for the dual.
I propose standard WBL for both sides. The wizard has no idea at all that the fighter wants to kill him or even exists until the fighter attacks. The wizard spends 1 hour per day in a mage academy lecturing. The rest of the time he spends in a personal demiplane. He knows that he is exposed when teaching so protects himself accordingly. Spells a duration of 24 hours or more can be assumed to be always on.
I also assume a undetectable does not prevent me from know what square you are in once you attack.
Victory is incapacitation for more then a year or permanent death.
Thanks Matius, I look forward to this.

Anzyr |

Shadowkire wrote:legend lore.Anzyr wrote:How did you get a spell lost over 10k years ago? By by WBL/soul. Fighter wins with assistance from debt collectors.Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.
I picked it as one of my spells during level up. It's really that simple. As per the rules, my research on my new spells per level happened off screen.

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I picked it as one of my spells during level up. It's really that simple. As per the rules, my research on my new spells per level happened off screen.
He also spent several hundred thousand of his unlimited WBL on strength enhancing items, so he could actually use it without killing himself.

Shadowkire |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
kikidmonkey wrote:I picked it as one of my spells during level up. It's really that simple.Shadowkire wrote:legend lore.Anzyr wrote:How did you get a spell lost over 10k years ago? By by WBL/soul. Fighter wins with assistance from debt collectors.Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.
Which would be acceptable if you were a sorcerer. But Blood Money is a Thassilonian spell, lost 10k years ago. The big bad of Rise of the Runelords doesn't even have it prepared, its just a wand. You have to come up with at least a decent reason why the wizard has it or I get to say the Fight just happened to pick up an army of Golems. Both things have the same amount of reason and chance.

Anzyr |

Anzyr wrote:I picked it as one of my spells during level up. It's really that simple. As per the rules, my research on my new spells per level happened off screen.He also spent several hundred thousand of his unlimited WBL on strength enhancing items, so he could actually use it without killing himself.
No, no. I only use those to show it can be done (Though I do craft myself the belt of physical perfection regardless as well as get the +5 inherent bonus). Normally I use Marionette Possession/Magic Jar on a high STR target like any sensible person.

kikidmonkey |
Anzyr wrote:I picked it as one of my spells during level up. It's really that simple. As per the rules, my research on my new spells per level happened off screen.He also spent several hundred thousand of his unlimited WBL on strength enhancing items, so he could actually use it without killing himself.
you say that like boosting or recovering from strength damage is difficult

BigDTBone |

Anzyr wrote:I picked it as one of my spells during level up. It's really that simple. As per the rules, my research on my new spells per level happened off screen.He also spent several hundred thousand of his unlimited WBL on strength enhancing items, so he could actually use it without killing himself.
Or magic jar'd a frost gaint...

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Shadowkire wrote:legend lore.Anzyr wrote:How did you get a spell lost over 10k years ago? By by WBL/soul. Fighter wins with assistance from debt collectors.Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.
But you'd have to KNOW about the spell first before asking about it. It's not like Blood Money is a standard spell.
You're also trumped on that strategy if the GM doesn't allow it.

kikidmonkey |
Anzyr wrote:Which would be acceptable if you were a sorcerer. But Blood Money is a Thassilonian spell, lost 10k years ago. The big bad of Rise of the Runelords doesn't even have it prepared, its just a wand. You have to come up with at least a decent reason why the wizard has it or I get to say the Fight just happened to pick up an army of Golems. Both things have the same amount of reason and chance.kikidmonkey wrote:I picked it as one of my spells during level up. It's really that simple.Shadowkire wrote:legend lore.Anzyr wrote:How did you get a spell lost over 10k years ago? By by WBL/soul. Fighter wins with assistance from debt collectors.Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.
My wizard was in that fight, recovered the wand, reverse engineered it.
I mean, he IS a level 20 wizard.

Anzyr |

Anzyr wrote:Which would be acceptable if you were a sorcerer. But Blood Money is a Thassilonian spell, lost 10k years ago. The big bad of Rise of the Runelords doesn't even have it prepared, its just a wand. You have to come up with at least a decent reason why the wizard has it or I get to say the Fight just happened to pick up an army of Golems. Both things have the same amount of reason and chance.kikidmonkey wrote:I picked it as one of my spells during level up. It's really that simple.Shadowkire wrote:legend lore.Anzyr wrote:How did you get a spell lost over 10k years ago? By by WBL/soul. Fighter wins with assistance from debt collectors.Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.
I'm going to need a citation on that. Because I'm pretty sure my Wizard researched/developed it while I was generating my character at level 1.

Marroar Gellantara |

Marroar Gellantara wrote:Anzyr wrote:Seannoss wrote:Or the tier 3 ability to be immune to compulsions?Fighter in question does not have it.The caster in question could just get the feat to count as a mythic source.
Don't see that feat listed in the PRD.
And if you want to kill a wizard just have an item of anti magic zone as long as we're lawyering. Don't even need mythic.
"MYTHIC COMPANION
Despite your non-mythic nature, you're a vital part of the greater mythic world.Prerequisite: You must be non-mythic.
Benefit: You're considered a mythic creature for the purposes of determining how mythic spells and effects affect you. If you ever become mythic, you gain a +1 bonus on all saves against mythic spells and effects."
Link URL won't take you too the feat, so scroll or crtl+F

Marroar Gellantara |

Marroar Gellantara wrote:Yes - but unless a single wizard learns how to be a bookbinder/papermaker/inkmaker/lumberjack/blacksmith/woodworker/miner etc - he'd still be in the theoretical power of someone. My logic stands.Charon's Little Helper wrote:Wizards can be book binders. It is an int based skill.Marroar Gellantara wrote:Gear is just as important as mythic tiers for the fighter, and he got that from a caster. If the fighter could ever win, it is because he got caster help.I've heard that argument before - and I have to say - it's a bad argument. By that logic - wizards are weak because they can only do anything if they have a spellbook, and spellbooks are created by bookbinders. So bookbinders are in fact more powerful than wizards. And papermakers are more powerful than bookbinders... lumberjacks are more powerful than papermakers... etc. It's a flawed argument.
That is not how crafting works in PF. You take craft(books) to be both an author, textbook writer, or a binder of books. And you can do it with X gold in raw material, no pre-processing needed.
There is a fixed amount of craft skills and they encompass all possible mundane items baring GM fiat.

Shadowkire |
Look up blood money, look at the source: Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition.
Then take kikidmonkey's word for it, above your post.
Like I said you can get it, you just need a decent reason explaining how your wizard came to know an ancient spell lost for 10k years.
Otherwise the fighter will just happen to know the exact moment you will try to cast time stop and drop a rock with Silence cast on it into the wizards square.

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:Marroar Gellantara wrote:Yes - but unless a single wizard learns how to be a bookbinder/papermaker/inkmaker/lumberjack/blacksmith/woodworker/miner etc - he'd still be in the theoretical power of someone. My logic stands.Charon's Little Helper wrote:Wizards can be book binders. It is an int based skill.Marroar Gellantara wrote:Gear is just as important as mythic tiers for the fighter, and he got that from a caster. If the fighter could ever win, it is because he got caster help.I've heard that argument before - and I have to say - it's a bad argument. By that logic - wizards are weak because they can only do anything if they have a spellbook, and spellbooks are created by bookbinders. So bookbinders are in fact more powerful than wizards. And papermakers are more powerful than bookbinders... lumberjacks are more powerful than papermakers... etc. It's a flawed argument.That is not how crafting works in PF. You take craft(books) to be both an author, textbook writer, or a binder of books. And you can do it with X gold in raw material, no pre-processing needed.
There is a fixed amount of craft skills and they encompass all possible mundane items baring GM fiat.
In Pathfinder - yes. However, in Pathfinder it's also assumed that all fighters can get a hold of magic gear equal to their WBL ignoring the help or hinderment of any spellcasters. I assumed that you were talking about if Pathfinder were a 'real world' issue.

Anzyr |

Look up blood money, look at the source: Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition.
Then take kikidmonkey's word for it, above your post.
Like I said you can get it, you just need a decent reason explaining how your wizard came to know an ancient spell lost for 10k years.
Otherwise the fighter will just happen to know the exact moment you will try to cast time stop and drop a rock with Silence cast on it into the wizards square.
Rules:
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice.
Blood Money is a 1st level spell. I choose it. There is no rule that prevents this. And as someone who has Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition I can assure you that there is no restriction in the spell itself. By the way, am I the only one who wishes Paizo would publish more hardcover adventure path collections?

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Rules:
CRB wrote:Blood Money is a 1st level spell. I choose it. There is no rule that prevents this.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice.
GM not allowing can do so. GM's are not required to accept avery spell in all of Paizo's non-core books. He can especially argue that his games are not set on Golarion and that spell IS setting-specific. He can also specify that the only strength a caster can burn for that spell is his own non-augmented total.

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True, there is no rule saying the wizard can't know a spell that he/she has no logical way of knowing. Just like there is no rule against the fighter knowing everything you will ever try in the fight despite having no logical way of knowing any of it.
Rules aren't about "can'ts" but "cans".

Anzyr |

Anzyr wrote:GM not allowing can do so. GM's are not required to accept avery spell in all of Paizo's non-core books. He can especially argue that his games are not set on Golarion and that spell IS setting-specific.Rules:
CRB wrote:Blood Money is a 1st level spell. I choose it. There is no rule that prevents this.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice.
This is would be fiat. "The GM can..." is an empty argument in a rules discussion. Whether it is setting specific is irrelevant as we are talking about all the Pathfinder rules not a particular subset.

Seannoss |
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Seannoss wrote:Marroar Gellantara wrote:Anzyr wrote:Seannoss wrote:Or the tier 3 ability to be immune to compulsions?Fighter in question does not have it.The caster in question could just get the feat to count as a mythic source.
Don't see that feat listed in the PRD.
And if you want to kill a wizard just have an item of anti magic zone as long as we're lawyering. Don't even need mythic."MYTHIC COMPANION
Despite your non-mythic nature, you're a vital part of the greater mythic world.
Prerequisite: You must be non-mythic.
Benefit: You're considered a mythic creature for the purposes of determining how mythic spells and effects affect you. If you ever become mythic, you gain a +1 bonus on all saves against mythic spells and effects."Link URL won't take you too the feat, so scroll or crtl+F
I bolded the relevant part. Being a mythic companion does not allow you to become a mythic source.

Anzyr |

True, there is no rule saying the wizard can't know a spell that he/she has no logical way of knowing. Just like there is no rule against the fighter knowing everything you will ever try in the fight despite having no logical way of knowing any of it.
I just showed you the rule that says I can. You may find it illogical but that's the rules. Please show me the rule that says the Fighter can know everything I will try in a fight. If you can I will happily accept it even if it is illogical to me.

Chengar Qordath |

Anzyr wrote:GM not allowing can do so. GM's are not required to accept avery spell in all of Paizo's non-core books. He can especially argue that his games are not set on Golarion and that spell IS setting-specific. He can also specify that the only strength a caster can burn for that spell is his own non-augmented total.Rules:
CRB wrote:Blood Money is a 1st level spell. I choose it. There is no rule that prevents this.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice.
True, but by the same token the GM could just bad the wizard class, then declare the fighter winner by default. Or vice-versa.

Marroar Gellantara |

Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.
Should I mention that the posted fighter was PRD only?
The WBL chart also does not account for mythics. You can safely assume the fighter has 14 times wealth than the wizard somewhere. The listed fighter's total falls far shorter.
If you want to see level 20 WBL gear then This fighter has that. You would need to add mythic tiers.

Anzyr |

Anzyr wrote:Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.Should I mention that the posted fighter was PRD only?
The WBL chart also does not account for mythics. You can safely assume the fighter has 14 times wealth than the wizard somewhere. The listed fighter's total falls far shorter.
If you want to see level 20 WBL gear then This fighter has that. You would need to add mythic tiers.
I'm going to need a citation that Mythics get 14x the WBL.

Marroar Gellantara |

... Has the argument in favor of the Fighter really descended so far down that it's reached "Well the GM won't let you have that spell!"
I mean, of all the points to attack here... that one? Really?
Sacred Geometry, Blood Money, Dervish Dance, Cornugon smash
All non PRD sources. At my table we considered such things as basically homebrew and are allowed only through great caution.

Shadowkire |
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LazarX wrote:This is would be fiat. "The GM can..." is an empty argument in a rules discussion. Whether it is setting specific is irrelevant as we are talking about all the Pathfinder rules not a particular subset.Anzyr wrote:GM not allowing can do so. GM's are not required to accept avery spell in all of Paizo's non-core books. He can especially argue that his games are not set on Golarion and that spell IS setting-specific.Rules:
CRB wrote:Blood Money is a 1st level spell. I choose it. There is no rule that prevents this.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice.
Wait, we are using ALL Pathfinder rules? All of them? This is going to be a short fight:
While the wizard spends all his/her time building a demiplane and collecting all the spells in existence. The fighter buys some land, which is in the rules, you can buy stuff. Fighter declares his land a soveriegn kingdom, allowed in Ultimate Campaign. Fighter builds up his kingdom. Fighter brings an army to the fight against the wizard. The army consists of various classes and some monsters, allowing the fighter all the abilities and actions needed to wreck the wizard.
All rules legal.

Marroar Gellantara |

Marroar Gellantara wrote:I'm going to need a citation that Mythics get 14x the WBL.Anzyr wrote:Shadowkire wrote:Now who is blowing their WBL? A whole demiplane, hallowed vs TP, and every spell that ever was. The fighter beats the wizard by telling the debt collectors where they can find him/her.Two words. Blood. Money.Should I mention that the posted fighter was PRD only?
The WBL chart also does not account for mythics. You can safely assume the fighter has 14 times wealth than the wizard somewhere. The listed fighter's total falls far shorter.
If you want to see level 20 WBL gear then This fighter has that. You would need to add mythic tiers.
That was just rough math, because the original fighter was MAX. Max gear, max level, max tiers. It is well over level 20 WBL, as it should be if you are treating mythic progression as epics and adding them after 20 like I did.
The 14x was rough math comparing level 10 WBL to level 20. The actual fighter was no where near that on hand.

Anzyr |

Anzyr wrote:LazarX wrote:This is would be fiat. "The GM can..." is an empty argument in a rules discussion. Whether it is setting specific is irrelevant as we are talking about all the Pathfinder rules not a particular subset.Anzyr wrote:GM not allowing can do so. GM's are not required to accept avery spell in all of Paizo's non-core books. He can especially argue that his games are not set on Golarion and that spell IS setting-specific.Rules:
CRB wrote:Blood Money is a 1st level spell. I choose it. There is no rule that prevents this.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice.Wait, we are using ALL Pathfinder rules? All of them? This is going to be a short fight:
While the wizard spends all his/her time building a demiplane and collecting all the spells in existence. The fighter buys some land, which is in the rules, you can buy stuff. Fighter declares his land a soveriegn kingdom, allowed in Ultimate Campaign. Fighter builds up his kingdom. Fighter brings an army to the fight against the wizard. The army consists of various classes and some monsters, allowing the fighter all the abilities and actions needed to wreck the wizard.
All rules legal.
I can assure you that no kingdom's army is a threat to a Wizard who can bind outsiders to their will, let alone cast Simulacrum for free.

Avh |

True, there is no rule saying the wizard can't know a spell that he/she has no logical way of knowing. Just like there is no rule against the fighter knowing everything you will ever try in the fight despite having no logical way of knowing any of it.
Actually, there are many ways for a wizard to rediscover that spell.
Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), Divination spells, reinventing that spell, ... And she would have all the good reason to try to find/create such a spell. Every single one of those means are basics to the mid level wizards.
And it is actually a legal spell, so nothing prevents the wizard from selecting it at level 1 or at any level up for that matters.
The fighter given in example has no knowledge in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana). She has no chance at all to recognize what the caster is doing. She has no way to go in other planes.
The wizard has been knowing the fighter from a long time know (Knowledge local, which is standard for a wizard), including its key items and tactics, for example by knowing stories and whispers concerning the adventures of this fighter.
The fight is actually over and won by the wizard way before the fight begins. The fight would even have a very hard time to even start.
Moreover, RAW Mythic doesn't grant WBL on ranks or on adjusted CR of the character, but on level.
A mythic creature grants more XP (because it is higher CR) and grants more gold in the exact same proportions (because it is higher CR). That's it : you don't start having millions of golds just because or by extrapolation of the WBL formula.