Sure although disjunction has a chance of breaking it.
Yeah, but not having Disjunction = All of your items, ever, gone in a flash for the duration of the spell. That is, of course, if the opponent tries the tactic. At this point, unless you can feasibly control action economy, I don't think anyone will assume that is a viable method.
20pb is part of the rules. As I said feel free to not take part if you don't like it.You want to GM this yet you ignore the rules. Have fun with that.Those are the rules I am setting. Feel free not to participate if you prefer. Gives martial characters tend to be more MAD it actually favours the fighter.
For those interested in submitting a character please post questions here
And first contender spot get!
Andreww- I think it should be clear that at the beginning of the week that absolutely no prior preps can be used. All permanent spells, simulacra, planar bound allies, controlled undead, and dominated buddies, etc must be raised, bound, or created in the one week period. This includes all crafting of simulacra, and consumable magic items if purchased at a discount, and purchased spellcasting services.
Spellbook spells, full priced consumables, and permanent magic items are excluded from that rule.
5 points in the point buy wont change all that much. But you're right, Uwotm8.
To be clear, it is in the first chapter of the CRB. 15 points is: Standard Fantasy. 20 is Heroic Fantasy.
Idk about you, but most of my PCs are heroic.
Andreww- I think it should be clear that at the beginning of the week that absolutely no prior preps can be used. All permanent spells, simulacra, planar bound allies, controlled undead, and dominated buddies, etc must be raised, bound, or created in the one week period. This includes all crafting of simulacra, and consumable magic items if purchased at a discount, and purchased spellcasting services.
Spellbook spells, full priced consumables, and permanent magic items are excluded from that rule.
I would be OK with this. Though I'd have to work out an optimal schedule.
Oh, and if you don't remember, the original idea behind this thread was to come up with a way for fighters to close the gap to defeating Level 20 wizards.
That you are so adamantly against explaining your tactics is at least telling that, on some level, you are aware that they might be defeated.
Oh, and Greater Spell Immunity against Greater Dispel Magic. Who's going to target the spell on the undetectable fighter to strip the protection?
You want to GM this yet you ignore the rules. Have fun with that.Those are the rules I am setting. Feel free not to participate if you prefer. Gives martial characters tend to be more MAD it actually favours the fighter.
For those interested in submitting a character please post questions here
At this point the debate is becoming childish. Obviously you aren't going to get an interpretation that suits you for every rule, but andreww is about as good as you are going to get for impartiality. You are going to suffer from much bigger problems if 20 vs 15 PB already sets you off. Go ahead and concede already if all you are going to do is filibuster: it is becoming clear both sides of the debate are just as obnoxious as each other.
At this point the debate is becoming childish. Obviously you aren't going to get an interpretation that suits you for every rule, but andreww is about as good as you are going to get for impartiality. You are going to suffer from much bigger problems if 20 vs 15 PB already sets you off. Go ahead and concede already if all you are going to do is filibuster: it is becoming clear both sides of the debate are just as obnoxious as each other.Oh, b&%+&~$%. andreww has already agreed with Anzyr across several posts. He wins by default. The mere premise biases the outcome.
I have been right quite a lot in this thread, so that shouldn't be that surprising...
Ah. Thank you. That's what I get for trying to remember off the top of my head. I'm glad at least someone can be helpful instead of combative.
I suppose I'll just add it to my Spellbane. Oh well. What's a few thousand more gold, anyway?
wow... quickest growing thread i've ever seen.
running a 1 week game prep time will require way too much adjudication in my opinion and doesn't prevent simulacrum abuse once the wizard begins living inside a maximized timestop all the live long day on some obscure demiplane that is timeless.
just remember, for any true comparative results we would need to compare two perfect player's fighting to see who comes out on top most often. such that, like chess the first player has an advantage that can push perfect play into someones victory.
I'm pretty sure that would be a wizard, as they simply have more tools available to them.
since time immemorial, magic's status as champion has been proclaimed across the cosmos, but it's actual attendance to any challenges is worryingly low (to the challenger's chagrin). this is to be rectified.
as such, an exemplary fighter and exemplary wizard have been chosen among their peers by the gods to face off and determine if steel can triumph over spell.
-level 20 / mythic 10 for both sides
-20 point-buy
-races: keep it simple stupid--no templates, drow nobles, or other obviously unbalanced races
-880,000g: standard WBL (+25% if you have a crafting feat, an additional +25% if you have 2 or more crafting feats)
PREPTIME
-both players have THAT DAY (from 12:01am until 6pm) to prepare for the battle--any buffs that are 24+ hours in duration are assumed aways on.
-both players recieve ONE ROUND before the fight to buff up or activate items. they must announce the free, swift/immediate, standard, and move actions used in this round.
-leadership/squire/torchbearer/'leadership-clone' feats are banned.
-if using contact other plane/commune/'play-20-questions-with-god' via scroll, spell, or magic item, list the questions asked (none of this 'i'm automatically perfectly prepared' stuff). this applies to both the fighter and wizard.
-if using blood money (via scroll/spell/etc.), list your exact method of obtaining 'infinite money', and why/how you purchase/create any specific items for the encounter (please remember to note crafting times if any).
-spell list for the day must be at least 90% assigned (2 unassigned spells/level at MOST)--you've had a morning/afternoon to prepare, your choices should be already tailored to the enemy by now already--i want to see what spells you have prepped and how MANY of each spell you have prepped.
BATTLE SCENARIO
-the arena is a 300x300x300 area, which is a grassy plain speckled with occaisional shrubbbery and trees, the setting sun hangs low in the arena's cloudless sky.
-both players are only allowed to bring themselves to the fight initially--no cohorts, armies, no minions besides those granted by class features or feats (such as animal ally), summoning spells and similar after the fight begins are fine.
-leaving the arena of your own volition for more than three rounds (even time-stopped rounds) counts as a loss. these rounds do not need to be consecutive.
-players forcibly removed from the arena will be in their new location for three rounds (suffering any native effects of that location) before being automatically placed back in the arena.
-initiative starts when they enter the arena.
-since both players are informed of the battle beforehand there will be no surprise round.
-both players must announce the free, swift/immediate, standard, and move actions of each of their turns. no edits, no take-backs, no retcons.
-the battle will continue until one side is dead, indefinitely incapacitated, or surrenders.
.
(to the wizards: preferably i'd like to see each and every spell you've got via levels and any purchased as scrolls/whatnot to scribe as coming out of WBL, since that is literally how you would obtain them in a proper game; got blood money? you'd better have taken a legend lore scroll out of your WBL or as one of your level-up spells, etc. but that seems a lot of time-investment to ask for a simple pissing contest)
thoughts so far? i feel i'm being a bit too strict here. i'd like some input from whoever's submitting a wizard and whoever's submitting a fighter on any changes they'd like.
note that this isnt limited to just anzyr, btw--anyone can submit a build they think would win in a fight.
.
EDIT: it appears andreww has taken the reins of the competition while i was typing this.
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Btw
My opinion is that 20 point buy is the one true way to play the game and I have never even seen a PFS table.
15 point buy is for groups that want dump stats.
#badwrongfun
I'm wholly expecting this to be incredibly hush hush. There will be no independent review. None of the builds will be released. A victor will simply be named which will only result in a lot more chest thumping.just remember, for any true comparative results we would need to compare two perfect player's fighting to see who comes out on top most often. such that, like chess the first player has an advantage that can push perfect play into someones victory.
I'm pretty sure that would be a wizard, as they simply have more tools available to them.
I think the benefit of using roll20 is that spectators can be present and I would fully intend to post my character after. I would actually expect Andreww to require build posting after the contest as part of the game rules.
I think the benefit of using roll20 is that spectators can be present and I would fully intend to post my character after. I would actually expect Andreww to require build posting after the contest as part of the game rules.I'm wholly expecting this to be incredibly hush hush. There will be no independent review. None of the builds will be released. A victor will simply be named which will only result in a lot more chest thumping.just remember, for any true comparative results we would need to compare two perfect player's fighting to see who comes out on top most often. such that, like chess the first player has an advantage that can push perfect play into someones victory.
I'm pretty sure that would be a wizard, as they simply have more tools available to them.
I won't be releasing my build. Though the match should let you guess at some stuff.
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This is NOT criticism nor joining back into the discussion, it is merely an observation.
What I have noticed is it seems that it is Anzyr and his interpretations of rules vs. almost the entirety of everyone else in the thread?
It really is kind of funny...at some points it really is only Anzyr arguing for a point. I think it is obvious that Anzyr will NOT be swayed by ANY argument at this point...the mind is made up. However, perhaps it's the intellectual stimulation, rather than the debate, that keeps people discussing it. At which point one wonders in regards to the ongoing discussion, since there has to be SOMEONE to discuss the side that the rest of the forum really doesn't agree with...
Does this mean he is the foil of the discussion, or merely keeping the discussion going?
Unique...but the conversation has been more mental gymnastics over the past few pages than really anyone being convinced or swayed in anything from what I can see.
I won't be.Whoever GMs should post both builds. Would you withdraw if that were a condition?
No, but I'd probably only go with the Sorcerer, since it's super unfair and the way it wins has very little to do with my actual tactics.
I think the benefit of using roll20 is that spectators can be present and I would fully intend to post my character after. I would actually expect Andreww to require build posting after the contest as part of the game rules.Once I have some contestants I will set up a table. Roll20 creates a log of all chat entries and dice rolls which I am happy to make public. I will also make public any questions asked or rules queries about builds asked in private afterwards. My preference would be for any entrant to disclose their build but that is really up to them.
personally i'd like to see both builds kept secret from each other and posted in full at the time of the event--namely to prevent last-second build edits or suddenly having an extra time stop that day between when the match happens and a build is released.
So, we have three scenarios:
1) The contest takes place between two people, with no arena. The battle begins as soon as the opponent finds the other with some sort of Perception.
2) The contest takes place in an arena. Both people know about it before hand, so are prepared with as many consumable items as they deem necessary.
3) The contest takes place in an arena, though neither person is aware of when it would take place (though, presumably, are aware enough of their opponent to have divined information). This is like 1 (depending on the size of the arena and how random the starting positions are), but significantly faster.
The proposed (andreww) method sounds a lot like 2. Not that its a bad thing, but I don't think that consumables will weaken anyone's argument.
I wouldn't be popping a Spellbane against Greater Dispel in scenario 1, because their is no way the caster could possibly know when or where to use the spell.
In 2, presuming he had as many simulacra as he seemed to indicate, it is a necessity for the invisibility tactic to be at all viable.
Limiting to an arena is not only bad for the caster.
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Unless all builds are posted afterward I will withdrawal. Having a specific build to back up a claim is one of the most important parts of this discussion.
Also, Andreww will need to have complete and full access to all builds AHEAD of the game.
I say post them immediately prior to match start
Once I have some contestants I will set up a table. Roll20 creates a log of all chat entries and dice rolls which I am happy to make public. I will also make public any questions asked or rules queries about builds asked in private afterwards. My preference would be for any entrant to disclose their build but that is really up to them. Spectators are fine as well provide they don't disrupt things.If you don't enforce it, it loses almost all credibility.
1. How does a GM not know their player's build?
2. Why would a player not put out their build after the duel? Trade secrets? PF/D&D isn't a professional competitive sport, you have no reason for this unless you don't want people to call you out on flagrant cheating.
here's a outline for a document:
In the interest of speed let's just get a document together we can agree upon then finalize the rules, and get some builds up and going.
You know, if your strat is truly unbeatable God-mode, then it should not matter when the build is posted.
Hesitating to post a build only shows that you are not confident in your position.
It also shows that you are not interested in discussion, only winning imaginary internet points.
play by post tends to be a slow format, so posting them right as the match starts would probably encourage the play to go even slower... Builds could be posted after match, most high level combat tends not to last more then a round or two...
Yeah. The initial intent of this thread was to bridge the gap between Fighters and Wizards with Mythic Tiers. Not knowing why a particular strategy won't work beyond the information that a method exists -- but is too important to a person's secretive playstyle to talk about -- is counter productive for anyone trying to meet that intent.
So, while the rules for the battle are hashed out, I remember the last tactic had a bunch of extraplanar simulacra (at least, this is the worthless? tactic we were told about)
Fortunately, the character I have had Miracle as an SLA, so could use Holy Word / Blasphemy, and flee. Wait a day, then come back with the other, if necessary. Repeat as needed until infinite simulacra are not an issue?
EDIT: As long as the impartial GM has agreed to post, it shouldn't really matter that we don't have it before hand. I think andreww has already declared that he/she will. So I don't see any need to worry about it.
Posting prior gives too much information to the opponent. Posting afterwards is a reasonable compromise.I say post them immediately prior to match start
I'm good with this.
Its a fair point and I agree. I have asked for builds by Sunday, I wont be running until probably the week after to give time to review and check. I would expect them to be released afterwards. If that makes Anzyr withdraw people can draw their own conclusions.Unless all builds are posted afterward I will withdrawal. Having a specific build to back up a claim is one of the most important parts of this discussion.
Also, Andreww will need to have complete and full access to all builds AHEAD of the game.
I'll go with the Sorcerer build then if that is acceptable. I think most people can probably guess what trick I'll be using. Particularly since I'll be taking a 1 level dip.