I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm just trying to bring this argument back 'round. :P
And why does the wizard have such a great bluff? Sure, he has more skill points, but Wisdom is a way more common ability score to invest in than Charisma, so I'd think odds would still be in the fighter's favor. But you're right, it's a moot point.
I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm just trying to bring this argument back 'round. :P
And why does the wizard have such a great bluff? Sure, he has more skill points, but Wisdom is a way more common ability score to invest in than Charisma, so I'd think odds would still be in the fighter's favor. But you're right, it's a moot point.
Much of a muchness there, but I think we agree in the context of the initial debate, geas is going to run into trouble with the 'certain death' clause.
As for the bluff, UMD Glibness, presumably. If the wizard would expect to use this tactic with any frequency that is a relatively minor investment, but yeah we're kinda debating nothing at this point.
Now, if the wizard just needs to get away, geas is great. Though I think this fight is going to be a bit too rocket taggy for either side to have much chance to contemplate flight. :P
'cannot perform a violent action'
Your body kills cancer cells daily
Killing is violent
You commanded me to develop cancer and die, the command fails.
Without a GM or tongues up, using Geas is very hard.
'cannot perform a violent action'Your body kills cancer cells daily
Killing is violent
You commanded me to develop cancer and die, the command fails.
Without a GM or tongues up, using Geas is very hard.
Killing and killing cells are not the same thing.
Geas:
Beginning now, sit down. Until further notice you may maintain all necessary autonomic, metabolic, and chemical processes required to sustain your well being. Beyond that all of your mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual effort will be spent in advancing my goals for myself in the manner which I prescribe, as I prescribe it. This will include standing from your current position and possibly tasks beyond that. For now, remain seated.
Too many words; all fighters are stupid and therefore are unable to comprehend.
'cannot perform a violent action'Your body kills cancer cells daily
Killing is violent
You commanded me to develop cancer and die, the command fails.
Without a GM or tongues up, using Geas is very hard.
Killing and killing cells are not the same thing.
Geas:
Beginning now, sit down. Until further notice you may maintain all necessary autonomic, metabolic, and chemical processes required to sustain your well being. Beyond that all of your mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual effort will be spent in advancing my goals for myself in the manner which I prescribe, as I prescribe it. This will include standing from your current position and possibly tasks beyond that. For now, remain seated.
sit
sit/Submitverb
1.
adopt or be in a position in which one's weight is supported by one's buttocks rather than one's feet and one's back is upright.
"you'd better sit down"
synonyms: take a seat, seat oneself, be seated, perch, ensconce oneself, plump oneself, flop; More
antonyms: stand
cause (someone) to sit.
"sit yourself down and I'll bring you some coffee"
synonyms: put (down), place, set (down), lay, deposit, rest, stand; More
(of an animal) rest with the hind legs bent and the body close to the ground.
"it is important for a dog to sit when instructed"
(of a bird) rest on a branch; perch.
(of a bird) remain on its nest to incubate its egg.
"a sitting hen"
ride or keep one's seat on (a horse).
NORTH AMERICAN
not use (a player) in a game.
"the manager must decide who to sit in the World Series"
(of a table, room, or building) be large enough for (a specified number of seated people).
"the cathedral sat about 3,000 people"
synonyms: hold, seat, have seats for, have space/room for, accommodate
"the church sat about 3,000 people"
pose, typically in a seated position, for (an artist or photographer).
"Walter Deverell asked her to sit for him"
synonyms: pose, model
"she sat for Picasso"
be or remain in a particular position or state.
"the fridge was sitting in a pool of water"
synonyms: be situated, be located, be sited, stand
"a hotel sitting on the mountain"
(of an item of clothing) fit a person well or badly as specified.
"the blue uniform sat well on his big frame"
be harmonious with.
"his shyness doesn't sit easily with Hollywood tradition"
synonyms: be harmonious, go, fit in, harmonize
"his shyness doesn't sit easily with Hollywood tradition"
2.
(of a legislature, committee, court of law, etc.) be engaged in its business."Congress continued sitting until March 16"
synonyms: be in session, meet, be convened
"the committee sits on Saturday"
down1
doun/Submit
adverb
1.
toward or in a lower place or position, especially to or on the ground or another surface.
"she looked down"
synonyms: toward a lower position, downward, downstairs More
antonyms: up
at or to a specified distance below.
"you can plainly see the bottom 35 feet down"
downstairs.
"I went down to put the kettle on"
expressing movement or position away from the north.
"they're living down south"
to or at a place perceived as lower (often expressing casualness or lack of hurry).
"I'd rather be down at the villa"
BRITISH
away from the capital or major city.
"there are eight trains a day, four up and four down"
BRITISH
away from a university, especially Oxford or Cambridge.
(with reference to food or drink swallowed) in or into the stomach.
"she couldn't keep anything down"
so as to lie or be fixed flush or flat.
"she stuck down a Christmas label"
used as a command to a person or animal to sit or lie down.
exclamation: down
"down, boy!"
a crossword answer that reads vertically.
"how many letters in fifteen down?"
2.
to or at a lower level of intensity, volume, or activity.
"keep the noise down"
I Lower the intensity of my business, which is still killing you at only slightly less volume. Everything beyond that* is devoted to your goals, but my business takes all my energy, thus none left to serve your needs.
*'That' grammatically includes both sitting and the life sustaining functions
Too many words; all fighters are stupid and therefore are unable to comprehend.
My first goal was stated, my first goal is for you to remain seated. All of you physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual effort should be consumed by this task. Therefore, you have no available thought process to determine, "I should now get up and kill this guy using a loophole." Because by expending the mental effort to have that thought, you are breaking the geas.
'cannot perform a violent action'Your body kills cancer cells daily
Killing is violent
You commanded me to develop cancer and die, the command fails.
Without a GM or tongues up, using Geas is very hard.
Killing and killing cells are not the same thing.
Geas:
Beginning now, sit down. Until further notice you may maintain all necessary autonomic, metabolic, and chemical processes required to sustain your well being. Beyond that all of your mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual effort will be spent in advancing my goals for myself in the manner which I prescribe, as I prescribe it. This will include standing from your current position and possibly tasks beyond that. For now, remain seated.
sit
sit/Submit
verb
1.
adopt or be in a position in which one's weight is supported by one's buttocks rather than one's feet and one's back is upright.
"you'd better sit down"
synonyms: take a seat, seat oneself, be seated, perch, ensconce oneself, plump oneself, flop; More
antonyms: stand
cause (someone) to sit.
"sit yourself down and I'll bring you some coffee"
synonyms: put (down), place, set (down), lay, deposit, rest, stand; More
(of an animal) rest with the hind legs bent and the body close to the ground.
"it is important for a dog to sit when instructed"
(of a bird) rest on a branch; perch.
(of a bird) remain on its nest to incubate its egg.
"a sitting hen"
ride or keep one's seat on (a horse).
NORTH AMERICAN
not use (a player) in a game.
"the manager must decide who to sit in the World Series"
(of a table, room, or building) be large enough for (a specified number of seated people).
"the cathedral sat about 3,000 people"
synonyms: hold, seat, have seats for, have space/room for, accommodate
"the church sat about 3,000 people"
pose, typically in a seated position, for (an artist or photographer).
"Walter Deverell asked her to sit for him"
synonyms: pose, model
"she sat for
...
Only one of those is a verb, and command form conjugation was used.
Too many words; all fighters are stupid and therefore are unable to comprehend.
I do wonder why people are trying so hard.
Cast tongues then limited wish -> geas
BAM! Your command is given via intent instead of words.
Only one of those is a verb, and command form conjugation was used.
Read better, I used an adverb definition for down and verb for sit.
EDIT: I don't even have to use standard English definitions for words, since this is a legalese battle with no Judge or legal precedence to fall back to for meaning. You can't make an air-tight command without defining an entire language in your command.
Only one of those is a verb, and command form conjugation was used.Read better, I used an adverb definition for down and verb for sit.
:-/ format your posts better. Wall of text sux.
My first goal was stated, my first goal is for you to remain seated. All of you physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual effort should be consumed by this task. Therefore, you have no available thought process to determine, "I should now get up and kill this guy using a loophole." Because by expending the mental effort to have that thought, you are breaking the geas.Too many words; all fighters are stupid and therefore are unable to comprehend.
By the same token, you are not capable of applying conjecture and interpreting what the mage said correctly. All you are capable of doing is putting all your thought process into applying the interpretation you form in that split-second. Once the task is deemed completed, their thoughts are free. So it's a crapshoot.
Moreover, using geas to effectively lower someone's mental scores and keep them from thinking is definitely flagrant abuse of the intended application of the spell. And while I hate to get into this debate, turning someone into a vegetable by literally banning them from thinking should definitely be considered threatening their life.
:-/ format your posts better. Wall of text sux.Only one of those is a verb, and command form conjugation was used.Read better, I used an adverb definition for down and verb for sit.
Just cast tongues instead of messing with this nonsense!
My first goal was stated, my first goal is for you to remain seated. All of you physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual effort should be consumed by this task. Therefore, you have no available thought process to determine, "I should now get up and kill this guy using a loophole." Because by expending the mental effort to have that thought, you are breaking the geas.Too many words; all fighters are stupid and therefore are unable to comprehend.
By the same token, you are not capable of applying conjecture and interpreting what the mage said correctly. All you are capable of doing is putting all your thought process into applying the interpretation you form in that split-second. Once the task is deemed completed, their thoughts are free. So it's a crapshoot.
Moreover, using geas to effectively lower someone's mental scores and keep them from thinking is definitely flagrant abuse of the intended application of the spell. And while I hate to get into this debate, turning someone into a vegetable by literally banning them from thinking should definitely be considered threatening their life.
Are you saying that it is simultaneously too vague AND too restrictive?
Just cast tongues instead of messing with this nonsense!:-/ format your posts better. Wall of text sux.Only one of those is a verb, and command form conjugation was used.Read better, I used an adverb definition for down and verb for sit.
Permanent Tongues (along with all the other permanent personal buffs,) should be presumed on the caster. I've been assuming that was known. And before someone says something like "Unknown spell list rabble rabble" remember that Limited Wish/Wish can Duplicate these (and Permanency) and there's nothing that can't be covered under Wish's 25,000 GP cap.
Are you saying that it is simultaneously too vague AND too restrictive?My first goal was stated, my first goal is for you to remain seated. All of you physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual effort should be consumed by this task. Therefore, you have no available thought process to determine, "I should now get up and kill this guy using a loophole." Because by expending the mental effort to have that thought, you are breaking the geas.Too many words; all fighters are stupid and therefore are unable to comprehend.
By the same token, you are not capable of applying conjecture and interpreting what the mage said correctly. All you are capable of doing is putting all your thought process into applying the interpretation you form in that split-second. Once the task is deemed completed, their thoughts are free. So it's a crapshoot.
Moreover, using geas to effectively lower someone's mental scores and keep them from thinking is definitely flagrant abuse of the intended application of the spell. And while I hate to get into this debate, turning someone into a vegetable by literally banning them from thinking should definitely be considered threatening their life.
By the way, this nonsense is why I would have provided definitions for every word of the command.
Permanent Tongues (along with all the other permanent personal buffs,) should be presumed on the caster. I've been assuming that was known. And before someone says something like "Unknown spell list rabble rabble" remember that Limited Wish/Wish can Duplicate these (and Permanency) and there's nothing that can't be covered under Wish's 25,000 GP cap.Just cast tongues instead of messing with this nonsense!:-/ format your posts better. Wall of text sux.Only one of those is a verb, and command form conjugation was used.Read better, I used an adverb definition for down and verb for sit.
It really isn't that hard to list out your spells.
It is what I did for my wizard vs fighter. The only counters I have seen to the second tactic were being undetectable/forfeiting the duel.
Geas fails multiple ways on my lich, not the least of which is that he is immune to mind-affecting.
By the way, this nonsense is why I would have provided definitions for every word of the command.
You do realize that you would have also defined the words in your definitions?
Tongues gets around all that because you can just say intents and tongues transmits the meaning to the target in their understanding of language.
Permanent Tongues (along with all the other permanent personal buffs,) should be presumed on the caster. I've been assuming that was known. And before someone says something like "Unknown spell list rabble rabble" remember that Limited Wish/Wish can Duplicate these (and Permanency) and there's nothing that can't be covered under Wish's 25,000 GP cap.Just cast tongues instead of messing with this nonsense!:-/ format your posts better. Wall of text sux.Only one of those is a verb, and command form conjugation was used.Read better, I used an adverb definition for down and verb for sit.It really isn't that hard to list out your spells.
It is what I did for my wizard vs fighter. The only counters I have seen to the second tactic were being undetectable/forfeiting the duel.
Geas fails multiple ways on my lich, not the least of which is that he is immune to mind-affecting.
Genuinely curious how you became a lich as I can't think of any RAW way of doing it, since "The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion". Not that any caster I would present would become a Lich because that denies you Blood Money.
As far as actions are concerned, the proposed method casts Geas as a spell-like ability from the Nobility Domain with Divine Source. These are standard actions unless otherwise specified.
For clarity, to anyone who is trying to remember what Tongues does without needing to look it up:
This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don't speak. The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries. This spell does not predispose any creature addressed toward the subject in any way.
With Tongues up, you can feasibly speak the specific dialect of the wizard that we are trying to geas.
Still, having access to a person's dialect and having a language that does not brook alternate interpretation are different matters. (-see this discussion. None of the arguments you have countered with have depended on a difference in our dialect)
So, lacking this, you claim it is down to a GM. I counter-claim that it is sufficient to keep refining the language used until nobody on this forum is capable of finding fault. I am fully prepared to keep iterating in that process. The GM is only needed if there is room for interpretation.
...
To the crowd saying that the geas fails if certain death is implied: you are right. If loss results only in death, then the Geas is more difficult to stick (probably not impossible with the right wording)
It has been mentioned, midway in this thread, that killing the wizard is actually more of a kindness because of clones. So, to really remove the threat of the wizard, keeping him alive in a nearly vegetative state is more useful. This is why I'm leaning toward the Geas method.
If killing is the only thing that is important, then the same undetectable/invisible/flying scenario works, with Blindsense to track down and Echolocation (spell) when you get a ping. Smack with the hardest full action attack a fighter can muster.
If not killing is allowed (and known to be preferred - as divination would no doubt inform the wizard), Geas is strictly better.
If killing is the answer... then kill.
...
So, the answer to undetectable is to figure out where he is? Rather than argue semantics, the tactic is to have 6 Tiers (baseline anyway for blindsense) and mythic paragon, and the Protection Domain as the second domain. You get Mind Blank as your 8th slot. Every day, you cast this spell. You have no need to ever interact with anybody until the duel is over. (I suppose we can fill the other ring slot with a ring of sustenance.)
If you really want to be picky, we can be wearing the Headband of Sealed thoughts, to protect against any divination barring wish/limited wish during the few seconds where Mind Blank suddenly flips from on, to off, to back on again. I don't think this is necessary, however because...
Time Stop gives you 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. These pass as the caster sees rounds, regardless of the planar traits. No infinite time for you.
...
The set up at the moment
Abilities: Legendary Item: Undetectable + 2xIntelligent(Feeblemind 1/day)
Commune with Power - to have a divination tool
Divine Source (Nobility = Geas / Protection = Mind Blank)
Longevity (to not lose to the Immortal wizard who might also be hiding)
Sleepless (to be able to keep activating a use item)
Mythic Sight (Blindsense to do an eternal random search pattern until wizard is found)
Items: Ring of Invisibility, Wings of Flying, Ring of Sustenance (66500 GP)
Headband of Sealed thoughts adds 150000 to this, if needed. Still, lots of room for the sword and armor, and scrolls (Echolocation scroll would cost 2250 GP)
Genuinely curious how you became a lich as I can't think of any RAW way of doing it, since "The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion". Not that any caster I would present would become a Lich because that denies you Blood Money.
No GM.
No exact methods.
Craft phylactery.
Done.
Not sure how your wizard is undefeatable without being a lich. Clone slowly eats away at your WBL. Of course you are still using non-PRD sources. Care to mention why your wizard isn't using sacred geometry?
As far as actions are concerned, the proposed method casts Geas as a spell-like ability from the Nobility Domain with Divine Source. These are standard actions unless otherwise specified.
For clarity, to anyone who is trying to remember what Tongues does without needing to look it up:
This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don't speak. The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries. This spell does not predispose any creature addressed toward the subject in any way.With Tongues up, you can feasibly speak the specific dialect of the wizard that we are trying to geas.
Still, having access to a person's dialect and having a language that does not brook alternate interpretation are different matters. (-see this discussion. None of the arguments you have countered with have depended on a difference in our dialect)
Much of these counters are english specific. The grammar/similar names/overlapping meanings would not be the same in celestial/french/draconic. Tongues is also free from translation issues which means it can translate idioms and other such things perfectly. Thus you are only really sending out an intended meaning, tongues takes care of the rest. The subject of the geas cannot misinterpret you, since there is no interpretation.
This is easy.
The Spellcaster (Anzyr) tries casting a spell he didn't memorize.
I already know he didn't memorize it that day. Fighter gets initiative on unbuffed spellcaster and kills spellcaster (Fighter might not even need mythic spell levels to do this).
This is the most likely end.
alternate end...
Spellcaster (Anzyr) actually casts the spell...but thinks arrogantly that the GM is going to handwave things like they normally do when facing REAL enemies of a party that should work like a TEAM...instead of causing interparty conflict.
GM does NOT handwave...and though spellcaster thinks they can word something perfectly. Spellcaster does NOT realize how close GM and Asmodeous are...and that they can twist ANYTHING...GM causes spell to be worded in such a way and interprets it so terribly...that spellcaster ends up killing themselves with their own spell instead of fighter.
The end.
AS someone stated before...handwaving in favor of spellcasters happens WAAAAY to often in these threads...and when you are relying ON WORDING to try to win a fight...that's ignoring how peeved off your GM is going to be at you for picking fight with the other players at the table.
NOW...Final alternative...
FIGHTER picks the fight with Anzyr/spellcaster.
At this point...Anzyr could cast charm person and the GM may even let him reroll because the "dice were interfered with by someone breathing wrong) and the fighter has to keep rerolling because the "GM thinks the player is trying to cheat by rolling wrong"....type stuff.
Fighter fails every save...Spellcaster can't say anything badly and every wish is fulfilled greater than expected...even charm person is going to end up with the Fighter killing himself or worse.
The End.
Point...inter party conflict in a team game peeves off the GM...you don't want to peeve off the GM.
Not sure how your wizard is undefeatable without being a lich. Clone slowly eats away at your WBL.
[complete an utter bullshit]
Fighter takes Leadership, takes on a 1st-level druid, and gives the druid a few dozen reincarnate scrolls he bought during character creation. Alternatively, he gets some of that super expensive immortality lily stuff in Golarion—he's Mythic, who the hell's gonna stop him? Every time he's about to die, he applies the lily stuff/has the druid reincarnate him.The lich will eventually become listless. Remember, we're assuming a closed system, so the fighter can't get allies that aren't inherently part of his character—and the lich can't get anyone to fight him except summoned creatures, which, yeah, ain't gonna work (or will potentially get the lich killed by mistake, at which point the fighter skips over and smashes a phylactery).
After a few centuries of boredom, the lich degrades and turns into a demilich. When this has happened, the kobold fighter (look, he doesn't want to talk about it) walks over, pummels that a%!!*!$ demilich, and claims glorious victory.
And how, you may ask, does the fighter stay informed about these goings-on so he can take advantage of smashed phylacteries? Well, there's a very simple answer to that. A simple, clear, and logical answer that takes every possible anti-detection trick in the book into account.
[/complete and utter bullshit]
Genuinely curious how you became a lich as I can't think of any RAW way of doing it, since "The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion". Not that any caster I would present would become a Lich because that denies you Blood Money.No GM.
No exact methods.
Craft phylactery.
Done.
Not sure how your wizard is undefeatable without being a lich. Clone slowly eats away at your WBL. Of course you are still using non-PRD sources. Care to mention why your wizard isn't using sacred geometry?
Crafting the phylactery alone RAW, is not enough to become a lich. And what does being a lich have to do with being unbeatable?
Clone doesn't eat away at my WBL, since I can cast it with Blood Money of course. So... Plenty of Clones. And my Wizard absolutely will be using Sacred Geometry. Because Seriously... why not?
This is easy.
The Spellcaster (Anzyr) tries casting a spell he didn't memorize.
I already know he didn't memorize it that day. Fighter gets initiative on unbuffed spellcaster and kills spellcaster (Fighter might not even need mythic spell levels to do this).
This is the most likely end.
alternate end...
Spellcaster (Anzyr) actually casts the spell...but thinks arrogantly that the GM is going to handwave things like they normally do when facing REAL enemies of a party that should work like a TEAM...instead of causing interparty conflict.
GM does NOT handwave...and though spellcaster thinks they can word something perfectly. Spellcaster does NOT realize how close GM and Asmodeous are...and that they can twist ANYTHING...GM causes spell to be worded in such a way and interprets it so terribly...that spellcaster ends up killing themselves with their own spell instead of fighter.
The end.
AS someone stated before...handwaving in favor of spellcasters happens WAAAAY to often in these threads...and when you are relying ON WORDING to try to win a fight...that's ignoring how peeved off your GM is going to be at you for picking fight with the other players at the table.
NOW...Final alternative...
FIGHTER picks the fight with Anzyr/spellcaster.
At this point...Anzyr could cast charm person and the GM may even let him reroll because the "dice were interfered with by someone breathing wrong) and the fighter has to keep rerolling because the "GM thinks the player is trying to cheat by rolling wrong"....type stuff.
Fighter fails every save...Spellcaster can't say anything badly and every wish is fulfilled greater than expected...even charm person is going to end up with the Fighter killing himself or worse.
The End.
Point...inter party conflict in a team game peeves off the GM...you don't want to peeve off the GM.
I only cast spells I've memorized. And nothing is being handwaved for the Wizard. And nothing I'd actually use in a fight requires any wording. And why are you talking about Fighters failing saves? Have you read the thread? There won't be any saves. So this is a lot of nonsense.
Yes, most of the counters used in this situation are English specific. I am thoroughly unsurprised, however, because we are speaking English.
Other languages also suffer from similar issues, to greater or lesser extents than English. For instance, double meanings in certain regards are so classically French we have used their word for certain situations (double entendres)
Tongues only makes you understandable. The effort you go through in English to make a water tight command is translated by the spell, and we have to assume, lacking any guidance whatsoever, that a watertight command in one language is equally watertight in another. But you still need to be able to phrase it right, or you attribute more to Tongues than actually exists in its language.
...
As for the fighter staying aware, I figured it was pretty clear why I was taking commune with power. Every day, the fighter uses that power to see if the powers that be can answer questions about his opponent.
i know you can take a feat (celestial obediance to someone or other) that if you die you have an infinite gentle repose--and a free contact other plane when you get resurrected.
would that affect clones?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty sure that while the fighter might have a hard-to-impossible time killing the wizard, the wizard CANNOT kill a mythic fighter.
Why?
Because Undetectable, RAW, is such a completely bull!@#$ broken ability that it makes Sacred Geometry look as intimidating as Elephant Stomp.
Here is the wording of Undetectable:
"This grants its bonded user the ability to become utterly undetectable while invisible. While invisible and in physical contact with this item, the bonded creature can't be detected or scryed by any method."
Emphasis mine. So let's talk about this for a moment.
You have a contingency that triggers whenever someone attacks you, and plane shifts you to your demiplane. Fair enough. The contingency doesn't trigger. Why? Because the fighter "cannot be detected[...]by any method". The contingency does not detect someone attacking you, and does not trigger.
You ask questions of the gods to get some idea of where the fighter is. This fails. Why? Because the fighter "cannot be detected[...]by any method". THE GODS do not know where he is. They can't tell you. No divination can tell you, in fact. No ANYTHING can tell you.
Throwing flour at the fighter fails to detect him. How? No idea, but RAW, no method can succeed in detecting the fighter. He lays his hand on you. You don't notice he's there. He sticks his sword into your chest. You don't notice he's there (by now he's use Divine Source for greater invisibility, so he doesn't lose it for attacking you). You try to walk through him and run into him, causing you to stumble and fall. You. Don't. Notice. That. He's. There.
If you ask me, Undetectable definitely deserves a place next to Sacred Geometry and Blood Money on the altar of "this destroys games".
Anzyr, can I get your agreement on this? I'm certainly with you on the level of breaking the game Wizards are capable of, but this particular Mythic power boggled my mind when I read it. Certainly I don't think it allows the fighter to kill the wizard (clones, clones, clones...at the very least), but I'm not sure I can think of a way the wizard can kill the fighter.
|
Your body kills cancer cells daily
Killing is violent
You commanded me to develop cancer and die, the command fails.
Without a GM or tongues up, using Geas is very hard.
Does a fighter (or anyone in pathfinder) know what a cell is? Does anyone in pathfinder know what cancer is? A lot of your arguments are dealing with modern concepts that even a fighter with 100+ intelligence probably wouldn't be aware of. Also couldn't telepathy work for intent too?
|
Not sure how your wizard is undefeatable without being a lich. Clone slowly eats away at your WBL. Of course you are still using non-PRD sources. Care to mention why your wizard isn't using sacred geometry?
Lich does not make you unkillable, just more difficult to kill.
There are at least two mythic abilities that would allow a character to track down a lich's phylactery.
Those same abilities would allow a mythic character to track down clones.
Not sure how your wizard is undefeatable without being a lich. Clone slowly eats away at your WBL. Of course you are still using non-PRD sources. Care to mention why your wizard isn't using sacred geometry?Lich does not make you unkillable, just more difficult to kill.
There are at least two mythic abilities that would allow a character to track down a lich's phylactery.
Those same abilities would allow a mythic character to track down clones.
I would encourage this. No need to worry about finding the Fighter if they are willing to march to their doom.
|
Permanent Tongues (along with all the other permanent personal buffs,) should be presumed on the caster. I've been assuming that was known. And before someone says something like "Unknown spell list rabble rabble" remember that Limited Wish/Wish can Duplicate these (and Permanency) and there's nothing that can't be covered under Wish's 25,000 GP cap.Just cast tongues instead of messing with this nonsense!:-/ format your posts better. Wall of text sux.Only one of those is a verb, and command form conjugation was used.Read better, I used an adverb definition for down and verb for sit.
I make the opposite assumption. Unless the wizurd tells me he has permanent buffs, he doesn't.
And my Wizard absolutely will be using Sacred Geometry. Because Seriously... why not?
OK (watch as I talk about a different fighter build for the first time), Fighter gets wish SLA.
Makes infinite Simulacrums of himself beforehand which all have 10 mythic tiers, since it is only HD that gets halved. All of which are immortal. He has unlimited demiplanes to store them in.
Now an unlimited size army with infinite free wishes per round go after your wizard. (EDIT: Each snowcone is once per day, but there is an unlimited amount of them)
Wizard loses.
Oh man, and that was still a PRD only strat.
And my Wizard absolutely will be using Sacred Geometry. Because Seriously... why not?OK (watch as I talk about a different fighter build for the first time), Fighter gets wish SLA.
Makes infinite Simulacrums of himself beforehand which all have 10 mythic tiers, since it is only HD that gets halved. All of which are immortal. He has unlimited demiplanes to store them in.
Now an unlimited size army with infinite free wishes per round go after your wizard. (EDIT: Each snowcone is once per day, but there is an unlimited amount of them)
Wizard loses.
Oh man, and that was still a PRD only strat.
Only 1 Wish per day? That's only 1 Simulacrum versus the 20(+/-) a day a Wizard can make for free. Thus the Wizards army will always be larger then yours. And using Wish SLA you have no way to make Fast Time Demiplanes. Or make them permanent. Color me unimpressed.
|
|
Just curious. What are they? I don't recall any mythic abilities that let you do this. They're probably just not coming to me.Lich does not make you unkillable, just more difficult to kill.
There are at least two mythic abilities that would allow a character to track down a lich's phylactery.
Those same abilities would allow a mythic character to track down clones.
Flash of Omniscience and Supreme Tracker both provide methods to locate an individual across the planes during the time their new body is forming/awakening.
Only 1 Wish per day? That's only 1 Simulacrum versus the 20(+/-) a day a Wizard can make for free. Thus the Wizards army will always be larger then yours. And using Wish SLA you have no way to make Fast Time Demiplanes? Or make them permanent? Color me unimpressed.
Flash of Omniscience: "Where can I find a Fast Time demi-plane with residents incapable of opposing my taking up residence?"
Flash of Omniscience and Supreme Tracker both provide methods to locate an individual across the planes during the time their new body is forming/awakening.Just curious. What are they? I don't recall any mythic abilities that let you do this. They're probably just not coming to me.Lich does not make you unkillable, just more difficult to kill.
There are at least two mythic abilities that would allow a character to track down a lich's phylactery.
Those same abilities would allow a mythic character to track down clones.
The clone awakening is essentially the instant you die. Sure you'll need to have one of your Simulacrums remove the negative levels, but no reason not to have one on standby for that. Though I'd be genuinely impressed if the Mythic Fighter could even properly kill the Wizard. More then likely all they'll get is a Projected Image or Astral Projection.
Only 1 Wish per day? That's only 1 Simulacrum versus the 20(+/-) a day a Wizard can make for free. Thus the Wizards army will always be larger then yours. And using Wish SLA you have no way to make Fast Time Demiplanes. Or make them permanent. Color me unimpressed.And my Wizard absolutely will be using Sacred Geometry. Because Seriously... why not?OK (watch as I talk about a different fighter build for the first time), Fighter gets wish SLA.
Makes infinite Simulacrums of himself beforehand which all have 10 mythic tiers, since it is only HD that gets halved. All of which are immortal. He has unlimited demiplanes to store them in.
Now an unlimited size army with infinite free wishes per round go after your wizard. (EDIT: Each snowcone is once per day, but there is an unlimited amount of them)
Wizard loses.
Oh man, and that was still a PRD only strat.
The simulacrum you* just made can cast wish.
In one round you have an unlimited size army, most of whom have fractional HD, but are still immortal and have HP from their mythic tiers.The next day you make another one.
You can have one snowcone maintain each demiplane.
*general you, in this case, meaning the fighter
The clone awakening is essentially the instant you die. Sure you'll need to have one of your Simulacrums remove the negative levels, but no reason not to have one on standby for that. Though I'd be genuinely impressed if the Mythic Fighter could even properly kill the Wizard. More then likely all they'll get is a Projected Image or Astral Projection.
Uh he (and millions of others using the same DC effect) just wish for the end of your existence.
Any damage caused by perversions can be fixed with more wishes.
|
|
The clone awakening is essentially the instant you die. Sure you'll need to have one of your Simulacrums remove the negative levels, but no reason not to have one on standby for that.Flash of Omniscience and Supreme Tracker both provide methods to locate an individual across the planes during the time their new body is forming/awakening.Just curious. What are they? I don't recall any mythic abilities that let you do this. They're probably just not coming to me.Lich does not make you unkillable, just more difficult to kill.
There are at least two mythic abilities that would allow a character to track down a lich's phylactery.
Those same abilities would allow a mythic character to track down clones.
Ungeared with no buffs and no spells memorized.
Though I'd be genuinely impressed if the Mythic Fighter could even properly kill the Wizard. More then likely all they'll get is a Projected Image or Astral Projection.
With Project Image, you are standing within 300' of an illusion your Mind Blank won't protect. While still unaware of my presence. Astral Projection may allow you to enter the material plane, but again, how do you find me before I find you.
Only 1 Wish per day? That's only 1 Simulacrum versus the 20(+/-) a day a Wizard can make for free. Thus the Wizards army will always be larger then yours. And using Wish SLA you have no way to make Fast Time Demiplanes. Or make them permanent. Color me unimpressed.And my Wizard absolutely will be using Sacred Geometry. Because Seriously... why not?OK (watch as I talk about a different fighter build for the first time), Fighter gets wish SLA.
Makes infinite Simulacrums of himself beforehand which all have 10 mythic tiers, since it is only HD that gets halved. All of which are immortal. He has unlimited demiplanes to store them in.
Now an unlimited size army with infinite free wishes per round go after your wizard. (EDIT: Each snowcone is once per day, but there is an unlimited amount of them)
Wizard loses.
Oh man, and that was still a PRD only strat.
The simulacrum you* just made can cast wish.
In one round you have an unlimited size army, most of whom have fractional HD, but are still immortal and have HP from their mythic tiers.The next day you make another one.
You can have one snowcone maintain each demiplane.
*general you, in this case, meaning the fighter
Again, the Wizards Simulacrums can do this to. And there will always be more of them. So... I'm not sure what your point is here?
How is the fighter getting Wish as an SLA? If you're going to be dismissively sarcastic (were you? its hard to tell on the internet), then the least you could do is say that you're using Miracle, which is totally possible to get and then use on Simulacrum.
...
For the Lich, I'll go ahead and update my strategy to something that doesn't rely on Geas. The underlying elements are the same. In fact, Ill go ahead and make sure all the previous strategy is still valid.
Take 1 more Tier. (Up to 7 now) grab another Divine Source. Make sure you grab Mythic Spell Lore with one of your Mythic Feats. You will be taking at least Mythic Mage's Disjunction.
Abilities:
Longevity
Commune with Power
Divine Source x 2 (Magic Domain (Mage's Disjunction!), Construct Subdomain (Limited Wish), Glory Subdomain (Geas), Protection Domain (Mind Blank), Luck Domain (Miracle))
Sleepless
Legendary Item
Mythic Sight
Mythic Feats:
Mythic Paragon 1
Mythic Spell Lore 3
Mythic Feat ?
Mythic Feat ?
The essential strategy is the same: Always invisible/undetectable, randomly searching until the wizard is found. When the wizard is found, the fighter dumps a mythic Mage's Disjunction.
Regardless of Aroden's Spellbane, that is likely a 40% ish chance of completely negating all of the wizard's items/active effects (spellbane is still like antimagic field). If it fails, the still undetectable fighter flees until he regains use of Mage's Disjunction. He then restarts the random search pattern.
If it succeeds, the fighter needs to take some action that will prevent escape. Ill think about this harder if the strategy so far isn't shot down.
|
|
Pun-Pun required infinite stats for infinite DCs, sight range, etc. The self granting abilities were just a way to achieve that.
Thus the "not quite"
Feats and abilities already allow a character to act normally at negative hit points. Fleshcrafting provides a loophole to make characters immune to just about everything + tarasque regeneration.
Pun-Pun required infinite stats for infinite DCs, sight range, etc. The self granting abilities were just a way to achieve that.Thus the "not quite"
Fleshcrafting provides a loophole to make characters immune to just about everything + tarasque regeneration.
If you mean Fleshcrafting Poisons from Endless Night those are 3.5 rules.