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So say there's a typical lvl 20 wizard (or cleric), and a typical lvl 20 fighter. If they fought to the death, I think we all know who would win (spoiler alert: it's not the fighter). So my question is: how many mythic levels do you think the fighter would need before you considered it a fair fight? And what if they're both, say, 16th level? 12th? Discuss!
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More mythic levels then presently exist. That have abilities that would actually change the dimension of the fight. Which will never be printed for Fighters ever, especially if things like Crane Wing get nerfed.
I'm completely serious about this. Casters don't even roll dice at the highest level of play.
More mythic levels then presently exist. That have abilities that would actually change the dimension of the fight. Which will never be printed for Fighters ever, especially if things like Crane Wing get nerfed.
I'm completely serious about this. Casters don't even roll dice at the highest level of play.
Oh my. Do you think that still applies to 16th and 12th levels?
Oh my. Do you think that still applies to 16th and 12th levels?More mythic levels then presently exist. That have abilities that would actually change the dimension of the fight. Which will never be printed for Fighters ever, especially if things like Crane Wing get nerfed.
I'm completely serious about this. Casters don't even roll dice at the highest level of play.
Yes, though 12th level would require some of the meaner caster tactics like Planar Binding and Explosive Rune abuse.
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lvl 20 Mythic Fighter for argument
Not immune to mind-affecting. Auto-lose. You could go as a 13th level caster against this build easily.
lvl 20 Mythic Fighter for argumentNot immune to mind-affecting. Auto-lose. You could go as a 13th level caster against this build easily.
Nope. It is not a win.
You can force -12 penalty to all ability score until the spell runs out of duration.
That is just a minus 6 penalty all around, which is nothing.
Even if you kill him, he is immortal, you need an artifact sword.
You can tell him to do something that is very likely to get him killed. I mean you literally can command that character for 14+ days even at level 13. If you can't win in that time frame while controlling your opposition, that's a personal problem.
For example: Challenge Baal to a duel is neither "kill itself" or "perform acts that would result in certain death".
Regarding Immortality; if dying doesn't count as losing, beating caster becomes literally impossible. Though I'm sure I can figure out a quest to send you on that could get you killed by an artifact, or other trick.
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You can tell him to do something that is very likely to get him killed. I mean you literally can command that character for 14+ days even at level 13. If you can't win in that time frame while controlling your opposition, that's a personal problem.
You can't win without an artifact weapon.
And you can't command them for 14 days. You can give them one command to follow for 13 days. Which depending on the command can end very badly for the wizard.
He does have ranks in lawyer-ing
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For example: Challenge Baal to a duel is neither "kill itself" or "perform acts that would result in certain death".
Ranks in Lawyer-ing
He calls you Baal and challenges you.
You can tell him to do something that is very likely to get him killed. I mean you literally can command that character for 14+ days even at level 13. If you can't win in that time frame while controlling your opposition, that's a personal problem.You can't win without an artifact weapon.
And you can't command them for 14 days. You can give them one command to follow for 13 days. Which depending on the command can end very badly for the wizard.
He does have ranks in lawyer-ing
To quote the above: If dying doesn't count as losing it becomes completely impossible the Fighter to ever win.
Sure you can come back, but you'll keep being sent on a quest to kill someone with an artifact that will kill you eventually. At no point can you "win".
lvl 20 Mythic Fighter for argumentNot immune to mind-affecting. Auto-lose. You could go as a 13th level caster against this build easily.
A +32 vs mind-affecting Will saves isn't good enough?
For example: Challenge Baal to a duel is neither "kill itself" or "perform acts that would result in certain death".Ranks in Lawyer-ing
He calls you Baal and challenges you.
The Geas I would give would be airtight. Either way, you still haven't a presented a way you can win. You'll just keep getting controlled until the Caster is successful in killing you. And saying that "Dying doesn't mean you lose", is gonna make it real hard beat a caster, since they'll just keep coming back.
A +32 vs mind-affecting Will saves isn't good enough?lvl 20 Mythic Fighter for argumentNot immune to mind-affecting. Auto-lose. You could go as a 13th level caster against this build easily.
Getting Geas'd is rough.
A +32 vs mind-affecting Will saves isn't good enough?lvl 20 Mythic Fighter for argumentNot immune to mind-affecting. Auto-lose. You could go as a 13th level caster against this build easily.
Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest has no save. So no. It also can't be spell parried for the same reason. Saves don't matter against high level casters. Just immunities.
Edit: Slayer'd by Scavion.
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A +32 vs mind-affecting Will saves isn't good enough?lvl 20 Mythic Fighter for argumentNot immune to mind-affecting. Auto-lose. You could go as a 13th level caster against this build easily.Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest has no save. So no. It also can't be spell parried for the same reason. Saves don't matter against high level casters. Just immunities.
Edit: Slayer'd by Scavion.
And THAT just solidifies my belief that spells which don't allow saving throws at all are BS.
So say there's a typical lvl 20 wizard (or cleric), and a typical lvl 20 fighter. If they fought to the death, I think we all know who would win (spoiler alert: it's not the fighter). So my question is: how many mythic levels do you think the fighter would need before you considered it a fair fight? And what if they're both, say, 16th level? 12th? Discuss!As in all 20th level standoffs, it depends on who goes first, how they're geared, and whether that person plays with his smart chops on. Because I'm pretty sure that if said fighter has survived to 20th level, he did it by battling a few wizards along the way.
If you're assuming a straight off standoff, with no prebuffs, the person going first is going to be the only person going at all..
And I'm not even assuming mythic.
No prebuffs? Casters can literally ask the universe if they are going to be in a fight today. Also, unlike Fighters, Casters have multiple ways to pump their initiative. And failing that Contingencies to fall back on.
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The Geas I would give would be airtight. Either way, you still haven't a presented a way you can win. You'll just keep getting controlled until the Caster is successful in killing you. And saying that "Dying doesn't mean you lose", is gonna make it real hard beat a caster, since they'll just keep coming back.For example: Challenge Baal to a duel is neither "kill itself" or "perform acts that would result in certain death".Ranks in Lawyer-ing
He calls you Baal and challenges you.
You have to out lawyer him, and he is better at that than your caster.
You are also doing that at close range. One mistake and you are dead.
My money would be on the super mythic fighter as to who can make the other stay dead. However unlikely it is for the fighter to win, the caster has no chance without a mcguffin quest item.
When it comes to who could make the other run away first (death is a form of running away), my money would also be on the fighter.
Could you soul bind the fighter after you killed him to keep him from coming back? Or plane shift him to lucifer or something?
Any targeted spell with a DC gets parried.
The Geas I would give would be airtight. Either way, you still haven't a presented a way you can win. You'll just keep getting controlled until the Caster is successful in killing you. And saying that "Dying doesn't mean you lose", is gonna make it real hard beat a caster, since they'll just keep coming back.For example: Challenge Baal to a duel is neither "kill itself" or "perform acts that would result in certain death".Ranks in Lawyer-ing
He calls you Baal and challenges you.
You have to out lawyer him, and he is better at that than your caster.
You are also doing that at close range. One mistake and you are dead.
My money would be on the super mythic fighter as to who can make the other stay dead. However unlikely it is for the fighter to win, the caster has no chance without a mcguffin quest item.
When it comes to who could make the other run away first (death is a form of running away), my money would also be on the fighter.
Couldn't the Wizard just do something like Geas him then order him to stand still while he casts Imprisonment and then force him to voluntarily fail the save through Geas?
An Imprisoned Fighter is more or less not a problem anymore too...
Or the tier 3 ability to be immune to compulsions?
So my question is: how many mythic levels do you think the fighter would need before you considered it a fair fight?
It never becomes a fair fight.
Gear is just as important as mythic tiers for the fighter, and he got that from a caster. If the fighter could ever win, it is because he got caster help.
The fighter and wizard are also playing different games. The wizards game is just better.
The Geas I would give would be airtight. Either way, you still haven't a presented a way you can win. You'll just keep getting controlled until the Caster is successful in killing you. And saying that "Dying doesn't mean you lose", is gonna make it real hard beat a caster, since they'll just keep coming back.For example: Challenge Baal to a duel is neither "kill itself" or "perform acts that would result in certain death".Ranks in Lawyer-ing
He calls you Baal and challenges you.
You have to out lawyer him, and he is better at that than your caster.
You are also doing that at close range. One mistake and you are dead.
My money would be on the super mythic fighter as to who can make the other stay dead. However unlikely it is for the fighter to win, the caster has no chance without a mcguffin quest item.
When it comes to who could make the other run away first (death is a form of running away), my money would also be on the fighter.
My high level casters consider dying 8 times before Breakfast an inconvenience. No to mention if only "dying permanently" counts as losing, they have vastly superior means of escape. Hell they could just teleport every other day and the Fighter would never even be able to get close to catching them.
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Couldn't the Wizard just do something like Geas him then order him to stand still while he casts Imprisonment and then force him to voluntarily fail the save through Geas?
An Imprisoned Fighter is more or less not a problem anymore too...
Lawyer-ing
Standing completely still requires stopping your heartbeat which equals death. Your spell fails and you are in close range.
Or the tier 3 ability to be immune to compulsions?
Fighter in question does not have it.
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My high level casters consider dying 8 times before Breakfast an inconvenience. No to mention if only "dying permanently" counts as losing, they have vastly superior means of escape. Hell they could just teleport every other day and the Fighter would never even be able to get close to catching them.
If this fighter gets next to you, you could not teleport away.
Or the tier 3 ability to be immune to compulsions?Fighter in question does not have it.
The caster in question could just get the feat to count as a mythic source.
Couldn't the Wizard just do something like Geas him then order him to stand still while he casts Imprisonment and then force him to voluntarily fail the save through Geas?
An Imprisoned Fighter is more or less not a problem anymore too...
Lawyer-ing
I imagine the wizard with 20 more Int than you is better at Lawyering.
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I imagine the wizard with 20 more Int than you is better at Lawyering.Lawyer-ing
Wisdom based skill, and this fighter has +28
My high level casters consider dying 8 times before Breakfast an inconvenience. No to mention if only "dying permanently" counts as losing, they have vastly superior means of escape. Hell they could just teleport every other day and the Fighter would never even be able to get close to catching them.If this fighter gets next to you, you could not teleport away.
That'll sure help him with the weeks of travel he'll need. And before he can even get there the caster doesn't have to be there, they can be another weeks journey away. Every day. Multiple times a day if desired.
Wisdom based skill, and this fighter has +28I imagine the wizard with 20 more Int than you is better at Lawyering.Lawyer-ing
Moment of Prescience? Just needs +8 more...
That'll sure help him with the weeks of travel he'll need. And before he can even get there the caster doesn't have to be there, they can be another weeks journey away. Every day. Multiple times a day if desired.My high level casters consider dying 8 times before Breakfast an inconvenience. No to mention if only "dying permanently" counts as losing, they have vastly superior means of escape. Hell they could just teleport every other day and the Fighter would never even be able to get close to catching them.If this fighter gets next to you, you could not teleport away.
I think this fighter would just run around with his social skills and leadership to rally the world and heavens against the caster.
Lawyering (as in giving airtight commands) is a player skill. The character's ranks in whatever are completely irrelevant. I can give an airtight command with 0 ranks.
Moment of Prescience? Just needs +8 more...Wisdom based skill, and this fighter has +28I imagine the wizard with 20 more Int than you is better at Lawyering.Lawyer-ing
Any wizard actually bothers with that though?
Would the wizard think they would need that for a lawyer-ing skill check?
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Lawyering (as in giving airtight commands) is a player skill. The character's ranks in whatever are completely irrelevant. I can give an airtight command with 0 ranks.
Prove it.
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Moment of Prescience? Just needs +8 more...Wisdom based skill, and this fighter has +28I imagine the wizard with 20 more Int than you is better at Lawyering.Lawyer-ing
Quick, roll common sense checks to realize standing still doesn't mean your heart stops beating no matter how hard you try. DC is in then negatives. Geas still works. :)
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Quick, roll common sense checks to realize standing still doesn't mean your heart stops beating no matter how hard you try. DC is in then negatives. Geas still works. :)
He did not define what exactly standing still meant.
The subject of the spell only has to follow the letter of the command.
What you are describing is GM input in interpreting both the spell and the command instead of letting the RAW sort itself out.
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Gear is just as important as mythic tiers for the fighter, and he got that from a caster. If the fighter could ever win, it is because he got caster help.
I've heard that argument before - and I have to say - it's a bad argument. By that logic - wizards are weak because they can only do anything if they have a spellbook, and spellbooks are created by bookbinders. So bookbinders are in fact more powerful than wizards. And papermakers are more powerful than bookbinders... lumberjacks are more powerful than papermakers... etc. It's a flawed argument.
Gear is just as important as mythic tiers for the fighter, and he got that from a caster. If the fighter could ever win, it is because he got caster help.I've heard that argument before - and I have to say - it's a bad argument. By that logic - wizards are weak because they can only do anything if they have a spellbook, and spellbooks are created by bookbinders. So bookbinders are in fact more powerful than wizards. And papermakers are more powerful than bookbinders... lumberjacks are more powerful than papermakers... etc. It's a flawed argument.
Wizards can be book binders. It is an int based skill.
I still haven't seen a means this Fighter has of actually winning. A lot of is just "I can delay losing for a potentially lengthy period of time."
Start off by making him an Unbreakable variant of fighter. He gains immunity to mind-affecting effects.
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Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest has no save. So no. It also can't be spell parried for the same reason. Saves don't matter against high level casters. Just immunities.
Uh... I think you've been misreading Limited Wish.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell.
Not to say I think the Fighter is gonna win this fight, I don't, I just think we need to make sure we're not making the Wizard better than he should be.
It all depends on the caster too. I know even a non-mythic Wizard would give that guy a hard time, especially a Diviner. You can't catch a Diviner unaware of you if your Init is only 20.
While your fighter is formidable in a face-to-face standoff, no respectable caster would stand face-to-face with a fighter.
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If you actually require the wizard to have his spells memorized list spelled out, the conditions of his contingency, etc, it becomes closer to even. If you allow them to make up all that stuff on the fly, they auto-win by using their most powerful ability: Handwavium.
Seriously, commoners would be overpowered if they got as much handwaving as some people here give spellcasters.