Has anyone ever run a campaign through the Test of the Starstone? What led the party to it? What level were you? What happened? What did you face? Did anyone emerge a God?
Can you tell us which scenario that is or would that spoil it? I'd like more material on the test myself.
To my knowledge, the test of the starstone has not been elaborated on, except that it might be tailored to each individual.
How the party gets there is pretty easy? Anyone can take the test, so anyone that wants to chance deification at the cost of death can do so (lazarx's post seems to indicate failure does not always end in death). Usually the chance to become a deity is enticing enough on its own for many people. I would expect you wouldn't try before level 20 and having some mythic teirs.
Honestly, as a GM I would probably just tell you outright that any attempt would result in failure, and that attempts would mark the end campaign (at least for that character). Coming up with what is an appropriate challenge to transform someone from a mortal to a deity...I just can't do it.
If a player was really interested in having a spark of divinity though, I would allow them to end a campaign by being granted some power and being made a herald of their patron deity. Probably gaining a template for the appropriate kind of outsider or something. The mechanics don't really matter that much since that would still see the character being retired from actual play.
LazarX, which scenario is this? I would like to read it. Or can you describe in spoiler tags?
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The only content I know of that directly addresses the Test of the Starstone's contents is Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Mythic Realms, which provides some guidance about what might appear in such a test but reinforces that the test is different for each person/group that enters. The entry also describes mythic path abilities that might be available to someone as a result of passing the test.
Thanks, John Compton!
It would probably make for a great capstone to a mythic campaign like Wrath of the Righteous, with one or more players attempting to ascend to godhood now that they've completed all sorts of mythic trials, much like the eleven Acts of Iomedae which culminated in her taking the Test of the Starstone. Especially fitting if...
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Honestly, were it me. I would just take some infamous Megadungeon (Such as Rappan Athuk or the like) and use that as the test of the Starstone.
See Dungeon magazine's "The 30 Greatest D&D Adventures of All Time" (purchase here). Personally, I like threatening my players with Tomb of Horrors whenever they start waxing poetic about the Starstone Cathedral.
Can you tell us which scenario that is or would that spoil it? I'd like more material on the test myself.1, It would spoiler it.
2. One might say that part of the test is getting to it. :)
If it's the scenario I think you're talking about I don't think it's that much of a spoiler. It pretty much brought up within the first 30 minutes of play and isn't much more than a recurring plot point. I have to admit I was disappointed that they didn't talk more about the test in the scenario. Though I suppose it makes sense, I imagine the only ones that can properly tell people about the test are those who have taken it, which means speaking to the spirit world or a god and seeing how much they are willing to tell you. Both are possible in Pathfinder but that doesn't necessarily make it easy.
It's tomb of horrors so evil? i never played it D:
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It's early Gygax...everything is more or less "Save Or Die".
Tomb of Horrors is exactly what it says on the tin. Every gamer should have to play it at least once. It's an RPG rite of passage.
Except that it's a little bit different since the Test of the Starstone is, traditionally at least, a solo affair. Can you imagine running Tomb of Horrors all by yourself?
Even better! (Sort of.)
It's early Gygax...everything is more or less "Save Or Die".
Actually, I was under the impression that it was a tournament module (which could still mean it's early Gygax...but a specific type of module meant for high death counts in tournament mode).
Gygax himself ran dungeons outside of tournament which had a much higher viability for character survival from what I understand, even occasionally bending rules for younger players in order for their characters to survive.
However, for tournament modules. The intent was a high death rate with low survival...which is what Tomb of Horrors is...if I have heard correctly.
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If you're interested in some of the fluf surrounding the Starstone Cathedral, you might enjoy The Wounded Wisp, the newest replayable PFS Scenario. I played it a week ago and then ran it yesterday. Climax takes place during an aspirant's attempt to take the Test of the Starstone.
So is it pretty much assumed that to be deity you just have mythic ranks? I like the mythic rules, but they seem rather weak, to be deities. I don't mind deities having mythic ranks, they should, but to just be mythic is a shame. Id love to see deities and demigod rules added to pathfinder to get some actual deity stats. Ive done some conversion myself, but I always like official stuff better.
My campaigns usually involve at some point the players wanting to take on the gods. My last Forgotten realms game in 3.5 ran all the way to 54th level. And im planning another adventure for those characters some time in the future.
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Except that it's a little bit different since the Test of the Starstone is, traditionally at least, a solo affair. Can you imagine running Tomb of Horrors all by yourself?
That's exactly how Rob Kuntz beat it with Robilar when Gygax ran the original Tomb of Horrors. To record, he might be the only guy to run it solo, though I do remember something about Morgan the Just. Hmmm.
Sounds Test worthy to me!
Except that it's a little bit different since the Test of the Starstone is, traditionally at least, a solo affair. Can you imagine running Tomb of Horrors all by yourself?That's exactly how Rob Kuntz beat it with Robilar when Gygax ran the original Tomb of Horrors. To record, he might be the only guy to run it solo, though I do remember something about Morgan the Just. Hmmm.
Sounds Test worthy to me!
My own opinion is that Gygax was VERY forgiving of mistakes as well as giving out MASSIVELY HUGE clues that could not be missed by most...which is how it was beaten. Obviously I could be wrong, but I think without a GM/DM who does that it would be nigh impossible to do so. That it was someone that Gygax actually gamed with, IMO, makes it doubly likely that's how it was passed.
From what I read of Gygax's recollection (so, this is a fuzzy second-hand account of a fuzzy first-hand account) "beating" it is a loosely defined term. He got to the [spoiler main bad guy], sniffed at some treasure on the [spoiler], grabbed loot not at the throne, sniffed the bait again, went, "nope" and left.
So yes, he beat it solo. By sacrificing his fives of Orc minions on traps in the first three rooms, and avoiding taking the final boss bait.
If I ever get the, I might look it up/link it here, but hopefully someone else will. You can find his first-hand account on one of the forums out there.
The Tomb of Horrors is not what most people think it is. As stated, there are very few monsters, a lot of traps which rewards you for taking months to complete the dungeon, and few situations you can't retreat from. It also goes in mostly pastel colours, and if properly used, one of the final traps is extremely effective in destroying the big bad. Running it is an exercise in boredom, just as I would expect it to be to play it.
It DOESN'T NEED rose tinted glasses. The sodding place is already pink and other pastel colours.
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I rather like imagining it as similar to the maze in the death stalker novels or the pattern in the novels of amber. Not massive battles against evil monsters or dastardly traps to kill the unwary. Instead it forces the person to confront who and what they are, all their strengths and weaknesses with any illusions stripped from them. Beating the test of the starstone means knowing yourself as you truly are.
Those who fail are those who can't handle this knowledge. It's one of those things that are a pain to run though. Still I'd have it as something themed around 4 parts.
1) Knowledge of yourself: The person must confront the choices they made in their life. What do you regret, what are you proud of, why did you really make that choice and review them stripped of any self delusion. Did you give the beggar money because you wanted to help them or just because it was expected. Designed to force them to confront just who and what they really are.
2) Knowledge of others: A continuation of part one but now your experiencing those decisions from the perspective of the others involved. Your good natured joking with someone is seen from their view as constant abuse that hurts them, your heroic deeds to impress a girl as seen from her view as idiotic actions that guys do, a casual work said to a passing stranger is seen from their view as a major defining moment in the darkest time of their life as something that gives them strength to go on even though to you it meant nothing and you don't even remember their name. Designed to show them how their view of the world can be very different to others and how even minor actions can cause ripples.
3) Knowledge of the world: A review of events throughout history designed to show the connections and how rarely an event truly is all or nothing good vs evil. They see the rise and fall of empires how things that spanned the world can fall and be forgotten and how the actions of one person can turn the tide of history only for them to be vilified and destroyed because of a minor event and good intentions. Designed to help shape their view from those of a mortal in the here and now into an immortal who sees a much bigger picture.
4) Knowledge of release: This steps the most vague but involves an understanding of all those undefined rules regarding gods what they can and can't do, how the pantheons interact. It's the final step in leaving their old lives behind as they move to become a member of the celestial hierarchy.
Essentially it's a journey from mortal to god. First your self deceptions are stripped away then your shown how others see what you've done as your viewpoint moves away from yourself. Once your views of yourself have been reshaped you can look at the vast sweep of history and how minor events or single people can shape it but in the end few things truly alter the world on a fundamental level to teach you to not think in terms of today or tomorrow but all the months and years that pass to know letting a child die now may save millions in the future because if they live they'll prevent a hero from rising by marrying them and tieing them to a small farm. Finally they need to learn how to be a god. It's also why so many fail they turn aside from the path because they can't handle having all their illusions stripped away. Whether that's because they have their noble leadership revealed as petty thuggery, because they realise that giant invasion they stopped was really a tribe struggling to survive who were just trying to scare off the invading humans and never intended to actually hurt anyone or because for the first time in their life they truly felt something for other people as they experienced the pain and despair of a father finding his family slaughtered for fun.
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Having given the matter a bit more thought, here's how I would run the Test of the Starstone:
- One character being tested at a time. You can bring along a familiar or animal companion, but no cohorts.
- Arbitrarily high number of challenges, perhaps numbering 20 (to match the number of major deities).
- No challenge can be completed purely through rolling the dice, and requires making a meaningful choice.
- The challenges are tailored specifically to the character taking the test, as they are generated by the Starstone, so even if the whole gaming group gets to sit in on a character taking the Test, their own will be quite different.
The challenges should fundamentally ask questions, and could even have infinite 'correct answers' while still resulting in failure for the unworthy. Imagine a challenge that consists of nothing more than a starving child. It might seem a simple challenge to overcome by simply feeding the child, but then there's nothing for the child to eat once you have continued on. Teaching the child to procure their own food is the next obvious choice, but not if there's no field to harvest from, no river to fish from, etc. One test-taker might even declare it a mercy to kill the child and spare them the pain of continuing to suffer, and that wouldn't necessarily be a wrong answer.
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From what I read of Gygax's recollection (so, this is a fuzzy second-hand account of a fuzzy first-hand account) "beating" it is a loosely defined term. He got to the [spoiler main bad guy], sniffed at some treasure on the [spoiler], grabbed loot not at the throne, sniffed the bait again, went, "nope" and left.
So yes, he beat it solo. By sacrificing his fives of Orc minions on traps in the first three rooms, and avoiding taking the final boss bait.
If I ever get the, I might look it up/link it here, but hopefully someone else will. You can find his first-hand account on one of the forums out there.
Found some sources.
So is it pretty much assumed that to be deity you just have mythic ranks? I like the mythic rules, but they seem rather weak, to be deities. I don't mind deities having mythic ranks, they should, but to just be mythic is a shame. Id love to see deities and demigod rules added to pathfinder to get some actual deity stats. Ive done some conversion myself, but I always like official stuff better.
My campaigns usually involve at some point the players wanting to take on the gods. My last Forgotten realms game in 3.5 ran all the way to 54th level. And im planning another adventure for those characters some time in the future.
Holy Hera. How do you keep it interesting? What are they possibly facing at that level that's still a challenge?
Holy Hera. How do you keep it interesting? What are they possibly facing at that level that's still a challenge?So is it pretty much assumed that to be deity you just have mythic ranks? I like the mythic rules, but they seem rather weak, to be deities. I don't mind deities having mythic ranks, they should, but to just be mythic is a shame. Id love to see deities and demigod rules added to pathfinder to get some actual deity stats. Ive done some conversion myself, but I always like official stuff better.
My campaigns usually involve at some point the players wanting to take on the gods. My last Forgotten realms game in 3.5 ran all the way to 54th level. And im planning another adventure for those characters some time in the future.
Elminister with all the settings get out of jail free cards tossed into the mix.
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Holy Hera. How do you keep it interesting? What are they possibly facing at that level that's still a challenge?
It can be a challenge.
But even dozens of the gods of Golarion had to band together to defeat Rovagug. Specifically, the NG Sarenrae had to offer an alliance to the LE Asmodeus, who had treacherously killed her mentor Ihys in front of her! Then Asmodeus had to put the prison together while the other gods fought to keep the Rough Beast from munching on pieces of reality.
Tell me there isn't a story worth telling hiding in that paragraph. Peter Jackson could probably turn it into a three-hour movie...
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ONE three-hour movie?
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Keep in mind that failing the test doesn't mean death, necessarily.
I keep thinking of the twilight zone episode "A game of pool" where the stakes were to be the best, win. To lose, you die. Most of the way through, it was revealed to the challenged that "I take them as I see them. For most, pool is a friendly game of billiards to be enjoyed. To you, it's a matter of dire consequences - hence the theatrics of the life or death bet". (The episode was remade - or rather continued in the 1980s reboot).
Anyway, point is, most fail, yet many come away with a reward other than divinity. Maybe a magical trinket, maybe an insight as to why divinity escapes them. Maybe just extra XP and a story to tell.
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I recently ended a five-year campaign that took my players' characters from 1st to 20th level. From level 17 on they played through a mega adventure I wrote.
The final chapter of that adventure was the Test of the Starstone. They didn't take it to become gods, though; they took it because they had discovered that something was wrong with the Starstone itself, something that was tearing reality apart, and they needed to get to the Starstone in order to save/fix both it and all of Golarion.
I don't plan to go into a lot of details of what happened during the Test. Needless to say, they had many harrowing encounters (literally--one encounter was with a Harrowed Deck of Many Things) on their way to the heart of Starstone Cathedral.
Once they made it there, they learned the answers to many mysteries--why Aroden died, why the Worldwound opened, why the Eye of Abendego exists, why prophecy has no meaning, and some others.
They also discovered that in order to save/fix the Starstone, one of them needed to become a god and then voluntarily die at the hands of the Unmaking ability of a Time Flayer (Tome of Horrors Complete, p. 603); this would erase that character from reality, all memory of their existence forgotten by everyone.
The catch, though, was this--only one of them would be granted godhood, and they all had to agree willingly and unanimously as to which one of them it would be. Five out of seven characters volunteered, and they agreed to draw straws to determine who it would be. The arcane trickster of the group, named Lel, used slight of hand to cheat (getting a result well north of 50), and ended up tricking the rest of the parting into choosing him.
So, Lel became a god for a few moments, long enough to save/fix the Starstone, shrink the Worldwound by a few miles, close the Eye of Abendego, return prophecy to the world, and save all of reality from unraveling.
Of course, Lel was forgotten. The rest of the party emerged into a changed world. Their efforts triggered the return of mythic power to the world (and a mythic tier for themselves), the birth of a new power called psionics (and the wild talent feat for themselves), and a lingering spark of divinity within themselves (with each of them earning a one-time miracle spell-like ability).
The adventure ended with everyone at 20th level with one mythic tier. We probably won't come back that campaign, but if we do we'll transition it to a mythic one, with their first adventure's goal being to bring Lel back into existence--a difficult task considering they aren't even aware he ever existed.
I recently ended a five-year campaign that took my players' characters from 1st to 20th level. From level 17 on they played through a mega adventure I wrote.
The final chapter of that adventure was the Test of the Starstone. They didn't take it to become gods, though; they took it because they had discovered that something was wrong with the Starstone itself, something that was tearing reality apart, and they needed to get to the Starstone in order to save/fix both it and all of Golarion.
I don't plan to go into a lot of details of what happened during the Test. Needless to say, they had many harrowing encounters (literally--one encounter was with a Harrowed Deck of Many Things) on their way to the heart of Starstone Cathedral.
Once they made it there, they learned the answers to many mysteries--why Aroden died, why the Worldwound opened, why the Eye of Abendego exists, why prophecy has no meaning, and some others.
They also discovered that in order to save/fix the Starstone, one of them needed to become a god and then voluntarily die at the hands of the Unmaking ability of a Time Flayer (Tome of Horrors Complete, p. 603); this would erase that character from reality, all memory of their existence forgotten by everyone.
The catch, though, was this--only one of them would be granted godhood, and they all had to agree willingly and unanimously as to which one of them it would be. Five out of seven characters volunteered, and they agreed to draw straws to determine who it would be. The arcane trickster of the group, named Lel, used slight of hand to cheat (getting a result well north of 50), and ended up tricking the rest of the parting into choosing him.
So, Lel became a god for a few moments, long enough to save/fix the Starstone, shrink the Worldwound by a few miles, close the Eye of Abendego, return prophecy to the world, and save all of reality from unraveling.
Of course, Lel was forgotten. The rest of the party emerged into a changed world. Their efforts triggered the return of...
That was awesome. Thanks for sharing.
*Casts True Resurrection on the thread*