Goblin Squad Member
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Got into a nice fight again tonight with TEO and TSV. Traded oen tower for another. Lessons learned, Defense is impossible even when the defender outnumbers the attacker. That or TSV/TEO didn't quite outnumber us enough to stop us.
It was a lot of fun. It was my first PvP for EE and I learned a lot of stuff. And you are right about it being impossible to defend. For the first Tower, we did have more defenders within the circle but it didn't slow down your point acquisition at all.
Happy to say though I went from Player Killer L0 to L5 with those two Tower battles and only lost 11 points on my Bow due to deaths. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Got into a nice fight again tonight with TEO and TSV. Traded oen tower for another. Lessons learned, Defense is impossible even when the defender outnumbers the attacker. That or TSV/TEO didn't quite outnumber us enough to stop us.
I hope they implement the attackers taking more time to spawn soon. That'll make a huge difference.
I think the most people we had at one time defending was 8. I didn't get an accurate count of you guys but it seemed like a little more than that. That was only on the defense, though. When we counter attacked I think 3 from TEO joined us, along with another one of our guys so I think at that point we were at 12. These numbers could be off by 1-2, of course.
It was a good fight. I'm glad we got into PvP tonight, a lot of us felt left out yesterday when we saw no action at all.
Targeting is still kind of an issue, though I only had problems a couple of times. I was able to recognize most of your names, and a lot of our TeamSpeak was spent asking if so-and-so was friendly, so we were able to cope that way. Not being able to heal people in your own party who are red in the group battles led to a bunch of our deaths. I don't think any of us lost armor (but I could be wrong), but we did have one guy go from 20 to 1 durability on the new armor he got like an hour before the fighting began.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry to disappoint you, Guildenstern, but there was no cowardice involved. I was just passing through the area with a load of trade goods, and noticed you standing there listlessly, so fired a single test shot from my short bow with my unarmoured 1000 XP gatherer to see if you were awake. I then said "Good Luck" and continued on in the same direction I'd been traveling.
Ozem's Vigil has no need, or use, for a tower half way across the map that we can't defend. Even if you'd been away, I might not have fired another shot. If I did, I certainly wouldn't have hung around to capture the tower.
I'm guessing I didn't notice your wave because I generally watch help, not hex.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Got into a nice fight again tonight with TEO and TSV. Traded oen tower for another. Lessons learned, Defense is impossible even when the defender outnumbers the attacker. That or TSV/TEO didn't quite outnumber us enough to stop us.
Video editing in progress.
EDIT: On review, the saved quality is adequate neither for dissemination nor After-Action reports. I might refer to it for the most basic of stats, but even that will be rough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm glad you are alert. I approve of people who have the stamina to stay alert for 5000 seconds on such a tedious task. It would be nice if they ran the occasional goblins or bandit at us when we are in a tower, just to help keep us awake. Capturing a tower ought to attract at least a few mobs per hour. They could either get beaten, or get bored and wander off after a few minutes if you flee and leave the place to them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Got into a nice fight again tonight with TEO and TSV. Traded oen tower for another. Lessons learned, Defense is impossible even when the defender outnumbers the attacker. That or TSV/TEO didn't quite outnumber us enough to stop us.Video editing in progress.
EDIT: On review, the saved quality is adequate neither for dissemination nor After-Action reports. I might refer to it for the most basic of stats, but even that will be rough.
Would have liked to see the video. It stinks that its low quality.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Would have liked to see the video. It stinks that its low quality.Got into a nice fight again tonight with TEO and TSV. Traded oen tower for another. Lessons learned, Defense is impossible even when the defender outnumbers the attacker. That or TSV/TEO didn't quite outnumber us enough to stop us.Video editing in progress.
EDIT: On review, the saved quality is adequate neither for dissemination nor After-Action reports. I might refer to it for the most basic of stats, but even that will be rough.
It's 50 minutes long and only 145 MB. My screen resolution is HD.
I've fixed my encoding bitrate. Going forward, I should have some better stuff.
Vital stats: It looks like I started it when The Bloody Hand had about 300 points on a tower; at 16:40 the tower is fully captured. I estimate that to be just under 20 minutes from first point to captured (and when the first point was scored, our forces were a hex and a half out, tackling an escalation).
Phaeros takes their first point on the counterattack at 26:40, and finishes the capture at 40:06, just under 14 minutes later. When the first point was scored, the Golgotha attack force was present in the hex.
Worth noting: Running around the inside of the tower wall spamming heals, resistance, fast healing, and speed on oneself is super-effective at being in a position to score points and deny the defense the ability to reduce your score. I suspect that improved targeting would make that a tactic used only by characters that needed to spend as little XP preparing for the attack as possible (perhaps because they are primarily gatherers). As it is, if you can them brutally (cleave, whirlwind), you first have to target them, which is nearly impossible, then get into a position where you will attack AND hit, which means right on them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I look forward to watching your future videos! What Decius says is true running around spamming heals is very effective when you are attacking. It is also hard to identify if the guy spamming heals and running around like an idiot is on your team or not until you manage to click on him.
It would also be nice if the towers blocked LOS.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would also be nice if the towers blocked LOS.This, for sure. It would make combat a lot more tactical in terms of switching targets. That said, it needs to be much easier to select enemies before this gets added.
+1 for LOS. And how about harder to select friends too ? Maybe a toggle to give group mates a 'tab target' exclusion.
ps
I had to run 10 hexes and missed the first tower, glad I persevered. Every fight is a lesson learned.
What Decius says is true running around spamming heals is very effective when you are attacking. It is also hard to identify if the guy spamming heals and running around like an idiot is on your team or not until you manage to click on him.
For me, the strategy was an example of instinctive "emergent gameplay" from noticing the tower defenders being hard to target as they ran around (especially after they changed their armor color to ours).
As you're aware, no one ordered me to start running like an idiot, I just got frustrated with the defenders exploiting every weak game mechanic and wondered if they would have as hard a time targeting me as I had targeting them.
Though it meant I stopped getting kills, I also went to very long streaks of being unharmed or suffering minimal damage while racking up tower points.
What we did last night is NOT the sort of "combat" that I would want to spend my evenings doing for the next 10 years, nor will anyone else.
We really need to crowdforge something smarter than this.
Though perhaps there will be emergent tactics to deal with that emergent tactic.
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I miss things from WoW like "Target the target of my target."
An assist command would be very powerful in both PvE and PvP.
However, I worry if it will be FUN in PvP. If a leader targets you and an entire party opens up on you, as things are now, you'll die in an instant.
The alpha damage in this game seems too high to allow an assist command.
Maybe that changes as people gain xp (to improve HP, stats and skills) and craft better gear, though. But if OFFENSE goes up as much as defense, then it would STILL be too powerful to be fun.
Hey - credit where credit is due.
We invented the tactic at Baron's Folly. Zaar Frozen Blade targeted in his battle frency Baron. Not to be killed by his own party member Baron started to run cirlces around the tower.
Youtube or it didn't happen. :-)
Just kidding. It's a natural response to targeting frustrations, so I'm not at all surprised it would emerge in the very first tower battle of the game.
All of this stuff was known in Alpha by people who were trying to do PvP and tower capture testing (my perception was the majority of other people were just crafting and doing escalations).
I captured my first contested tower in WoT Alpha using these exact same tactics of self healing and running around in a circle.
sads for facepalm
:(
Oh well, I guess now that it is realized again by more people maybe the issues will get more attention.
I've got to think that with proper friend or foe visibility, a more forgiving targeting system, and proper functioning of crowd control feats that the tactic would become a non-issue.
But until then...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last night was fun but also very frustrating. The lag within the game for me was pretty terrible and I have a fairly powerful machine (3 gb video and 12 gb memory). The lag got progressively worse until the game basically became a slideshow for me. I had to restart the game in order to respawn after death before the end. I could target people but attacks weren't launching.
I won't beat the targeting dead horse too much but it needs work. I'd like an option for nameplates as well. There aren't really enough character or armor customizations in the game, in my opinion, that having to use target recognition is a valid defense of not having nameplates. Names also don't appear for a target until much too close, again in my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've never liked click targeting. I have found though that in PFO the click only counts if it's on the head, which makes something fairly hard, even harder. Definitely hope targeting options get some love soon.
Agreed, when someone is running around like a headless chicken, it is hard to hit their head. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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There aren't really enough character or armor customizations in the game, in my opinion, that having to use target recognition is a valid defense of not having nameplates.
It might be too early in the game's cycle for you to enjoy. They have said ad nauseum that this stage is (what they consider) minimum viable product. It is not ready for all users.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually the comment wasn't about a lack of customization, it was about a lack of nameplates. I want names and company affiliation hovering over people's heads. I know there's not a lot of support for that but it's something I throw my full support behind.
Actually the comment wasn't about a lack of customization, it was about a lack of nameplates. I want names and company affiliation hovering over people's heads. I know there's not a lot of support for that but it's something I throw my full support behind.
In PvP this is important to me.
But I completely understand players not wanting their immersion ruined, which means we should be able to toggle it on and off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually the comment wasn't about a lack of customization, it was about a lack of nameplates. I want names and company affiliation hovering over people's heads. I know there's not a lot of support for that but it's something I throw my full support behind.In PvP this is important to me.
But I completely understand players not wanting their immersion ruined, which means we should be able to toggle it on and off.
Agreed. A Toggle command would be nice. Toggle it on for things like Towers and other large combat scenarios. Toggle it off when I want to slip into hostile territory alone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want purple. Targets who are on your side who become "red" for other reasons shouldn't show up in the same color as others. When friendly fire or low rep hit company/party/alliance members, they should go purple not red.
In the heat of battle that would be even more useful than nametags.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want names and company affiliation hovering over people's heads. I know there's not a lot of support for that but it's something I throw my full support behind.
I've thought about this a lot.
I think there's a general expectation in Open World PvP games that there be no nameplates so that it's not easy to see other players unless you're paying attention. However, I think most of the players who would insist on no nameplates would also be horrified that they show up on other players' mini-maps. Since PFO shows other players on the mini-map, I don't see a good reason to not have the option to turn on nameplates too. If there are other reasons why it's important that someone else never be able to see your nameplate, I'd like to hear them.
TL;DR - I want nameplates too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm against nameplates. It's refreshing to have a system as different as PFO and once targeting is fixed, determining who is on what side is as simple as cycling targets (or tabbing through if tabbing only cycles through enemies). I find myself paying much more attention to how someone looks or acts in PFO than in games like WoW purely because of the lack of nameplates. I count this as a huge positive for PFO.
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Too cumbersome. Will lose more players to frustration than gain players for novelty, so net negative in my opinion.
They should add nameplates till there are more options for physical appearance and or gear that make it easier to identify who is on your team at a glance.
It's why armies in the real world wear uniforms.
Unfortunately, right now all we have is armor color (which is nice) but like has been done this week, you can change your armor color to match your enemy within seconds, and confuse the heck out of them.
A unique company tabard that you can wear that can't be mimicked would really help a lot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd be happy if I could just turn friendly nameplates on. Everyone not showing it is a valid target. (Yes, I do expect uninvolved bystanders to un-ass the area when a fight starts.)
Of course, smart Hostile flags might render it irrelevant. We could also use a :cower: pose and emote for the innocent bystanders.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Plenty of games exist that use nameplates. Think about why you are not playing those games, and stop trying to make PFO more like them.
Tailored Tabards make sense. They would involve the crafting chain, make it non-trivial to copy an enemies' colors, and targetting would still be up to player skill.
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Think about why you are not playing those games, and stop trying to make PFO more like them.
I don't think existence of nameplates ever crosses my mind as a reason.
This is a game not a simulation.
I think making company or (when in game) friends have their name tag or a friendly icon of sorts is a decent compromise.
Unknown people are unknown, so no nametag. Just kill them all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can accept the argument that nameplates should be avoided for purely aesthetic reasons. I'm not sure it's a compelling argument why other folks shouldn't be able to view the nameplates if they want.
I would prefer a solution that didn't rely on nameplates. But I would very much like a solution.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that company tabards would be really neat and useful to trying to figure out who's who. As to nameplates, at least having an option, would also help - but as long as there is a way to tell friend from foe, I don't have a preference as to how that is done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tailored Tabards make sense. They would involve the crafting chain, make it non-trivial to copy an enemies' colors, and targetting would still be up to player skill.
I think that knowing company membership is important, although some fog of war is actually cool for a fantasy game. We don't have AI. Tabard items might be a good thing; groups that want to use them can, those that don't or can't afford it, don't.
The tabard idea could also be implemented by having special palattes for armor colors, requiring some crafting to apply (even rudimentary crafting, say at the settlement keep. Coin sink!). The colors could be locked once applied, or at least locked for some period, or require crafting to remove the color.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I love the company or settlement tabard idea. I also agree with Decius that company/settlement name should appear under the player name when you target them. I think those two things together with making it easier to target people or cycle through non-allies would solve the problem, and without using nameplates.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What do you guys exactly mean by a nameplate? If you (finally) have someone targeted, you can see their name above their head, isn't that the nameplate? Or do you mean something that is more obvious from further away?
What definately is needed asap is keyboard targeting of players, *and* the name of their Company loud and clear below their characters name. Also Settlement should be checkable, though you could make a case of "people should learn where Companies belong to themselves, the game should not tell them this", I guess.
I can't believe keyboard targeting of players isn't in yet(exept party). This is something we asked for months now. I want to try some PvP but not if I have to play "chase the player-head with your cursor" first.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you (finally) have someone targeted, you can see their name above their head, isn't that the nameplate?
Two things.
1. Yes, that's a nameplate. The request is to have those showing even when that character is not targeted.
2. There's also a frequent request for a fixed UI element that's always in the same spot on the screen that displays the nameplate information for your target.
Also Settlement should be checkable, though you could make a case of "people should learn where Companies belong to themselves, the game should not tell them this", I guess.
For WoT, if you are in the hex you see which company owns the tower and which companies have points.
So as a combatant you only need to see the company, usually. There might be exceptions that I'm not thinking of, though.
And with complications like alliances and coalitions that aren't trackable by the game, even a settlement tag won't tell you everything you want to know if you aren't a freaking diplomat. :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually the comment wasn't about a lack of customization, it was about a lack of nameplates. I want names and company affiliation hovering over people's heads. I know there's not a lot of support for that but it's something I throw my full support behind.
I support it. If not names, then certainly companies or settlements.
Best case, make the display customizable. If you're an RP/immersion purist, turn off name, company and settlement displays. If you're more interested in IFF than knowing exactly who you've killed, turn off name and company. If you're gathering, and time is less critical, display all three.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. There's also a frequent request for a fixed UI element that's always in the same spot on the screen that displays the nameplate information for your target.
This! Becaus my weak eyes has sometimes problem with the small text.
And if there going to be more ID than just name, the Bluff skill should be implemented as a way to fake them... Because Rogue, y'now!