Goblin Squad Member
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This thread is about cross-over. Some of you might be aware that I'm quite active on the Pathfinder Online parts of these message boards. I'm less often here - but don't worry - I'm still a PFS GM and I still have my weekly group - albeit we moved from PFS to Rise of the Runelords Anniversary edition - running it using PFS rules but in campaign mode.
Paizo tapped into their fanbase during the Kickstarter. So it was to be expected that you would have quite a percentage of PFS players and GMs also taking part in the Kickstarter - especially as it was the only way to get the special edition of the Emerald Spire book.
But where are all these PFS players and GMs now? If you don't have the time to follow this board and the PFO board then let me give you a quick summary of the state of the game with a special nod towards the Pathfinder Society in PFO.
With the war of towers starting today there is an added incentive to join a settlement now. But is PFO right for you or do you rather want to wait longer?
First let me start - the online game and Pathfinder tabletop are two very different beasts. The PFO games uses the lore of Golarion - but the rules and classes are build up to fit a computer game and are not based on the Pathfinder rules. So the lore is a crossover - especially if you did a Kingmaker campaign - or if you play the Emerald Spire in PFS mode - thanks to the Kickstarter which made the book a reality. But don't expect the feel of the tabletop game.
In PFO you have to craft your own goods. This is anathema to PFS. In PFO you also have to align yourself with a settlement to allow to enjoy the game fully.
Both of this - as well as sometimes heated discussion - might have kept a lot of casual players away. There are option to 'play on your own' or if you prefer more PFE than PvP. You can read these treaties on the PFO threads somewhere buried or on our webpage where I collated them Playing on your own parts 1 to 4 in the news section. There is a lot of fun you can have and a warning - it can be addictive if you get fully in to it.
At the moment there is a new community being build up there with other dominant people - but also some familiar faces.
So if you are from a PFS background - where to go?
Most of the large groups like the Everbloom Alliance of the Empire of Xelias have some PFS members already. These groups are dominated by computer players but they tend to be welcoming to everyone new. After all - at the moment everyone needs more manpower.
During the landrush there also have been two PFS rooted settlements. The Open Road was formed by a US group with some PFS venture captains included (Kyle and Nani Pratt). Umfortunately while I'm writing this I haven't seen them or their comrades in the game yet. Give me a shoutout if you are active.
And then there is the Emerald Lodge. I tried to give the settlement a background as a lodge for the Pathfinder Society. It was formed by Venture Captain Theodum (he gained this title in the Eye of the 10 in PFS) and he is supported my several other PFS players. So far 80% are European - but that is mainly because it was easier to arm twist them to join me.
We have established the Emerald Lodge as a group that from it's background is there to explore the Emerald Spire for the Pathfinder Society. Don't get your hopes up - the Emerald Spire is in the game - but it is an empty shell right now and might take years to be added into the proper game. But we secured a place for the Pathfinder Society just at the doorstop. Paizo is aware of us and we had Lisa Stevens visiting us in the first two hours of game start (you need 30 minutes walking to get there from any of the starting points minimum) and maybe she is still around with her non-cheat character. Bit what I really wanted to offer is a place where PFS players can meet up in character.
My dream is that some day all of this maybe comes around full circle. I started the lodge with Theodum - who was is my very first PFS character and is currently level 14. He is the acting Venture captain there. The Emerald Spire is currently way ahead as a tabletop - so some day I hope Theodum will be the first to go down into it in PFO.
And maybe if Mike Brock or some of the writers for Paizo are reading this - there was the plan by Paizo to ensure that PFO also can feed back into their other lines and that they have the rights to character names and settlement names. So maybe, just maybe - the Emerald Lodge will feature one day in a Pathfinder Tales story or in a PFS scenario.
Hey - I had to add this here. Which PFS gamer wouldn't dream of having something related to his character immortalized in a scenario.
If you are a PFO Kickstarter backer and are in a different settlement - let me know or visit the Lodge or the Spire. If you are still looking for a place - the Emerald Lodge needs more Pathfinder Society Field Agents right now. Now was this last sentence IC or OOC?
PS: Oh and you can now collect as random drop various short pieces of Golarion lore. Theodum is collecting them to build a library in this uneducated backwater.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I guess I can only speak for myself. A couple of years ago I backed the Kick starter. I was excited about the game. I was also playing lots of World of Warcraft at that point of time as well.
Also I made contact with a few friends who were joining and were planning to form a guild group.....settlement? I seem to remember the name Hammer fall was mentioned.
Over the past year and a half or so, my interest in MMOs has diminished. I have also moved, and in my new home there are many more Pathfinder Society games to be involved in. In this area, (Raleigh-Durham NC) there are games in game stores offered every day of the week except Saturdays. Thankfully I have been invited into a couple of home games.
While talking to my group of five friends (I'm one of the five) who have been planning on giving Pathfinder Online a try, three of them mentioned that they have never played an MMO before. My other friend and I have some experience with MMOs, His experience with playing Lord of the Rings Online, and Knights of the Old Republic, and I have played World of Warcraft. We decided that sending completely fresh players into a PVP online MMo was somewhat like dumping creatures that did not know how to swim into a river infested with hungry piranhas.
So my friend has introduced them to Lord of the Rings Online, and my friends have been having a lovely time. they have a house, and another likes fishing..... they have commented on the beautiful graphics in the game the story lines etc....
By contrast they have been a bit frustrated with PFO. They mentioned going into a dungeon and having a good time killing monsters. But they were a bit irritated when their characters, weakened after fighting in the dungeon were ambushed by someone who was playing an assassin class and waiting to rob them at the mouth of the dungeon when they came out. They commented what was the point of having some sort of flagging system to discourage pointless PVP, if they had an assassin class who didn't suffer any consequences for killing other PCs.....one of my friends said if they continue to have a frustrating time on PFO, they can always go back to fishing on Lord of the Rings online.....It may be PFO is not for them.
That I guess has brought me around to my main reservation about PFO. Its the PVP aspect.
The Pathfinder RPG is fundamentally a cooperative game. You and your friends work together with your characters to over come and solve the challenges your GM puts before you. You "win" by working together as a team towards a common goal. In my opinion the PVP aspect of PFO fundamentally makes the game a competitive game. I am going to guess that the PVP nature of the game has made many people very hesitant to join PFO.
I may be wrong about this.
In short, at the moment. I am much less interested in MMOs. And because of my friends expressing their frustrations about PFO, I think i will give the game a pass for the present.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah as a kickstarter backer, I have tried PFO a couple of times, but is seems currently rather unpolished.
The fact, that I have only recently started to play PFS is a factor, it tends to give me what I want.
Of course the PFO client sometimes dies, and I have to install it again , that really motivates me.
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Wait are you saying that PFO is available now.
For a long time I kept checking but it was always in closed alpha/beta. I eventually stopped bothering to look. I will have to go check some stuff out.
Hmm...
But the PvP comments make me less enthusiastic. For me about 90% of the draw of an RPG is playing a cooperative game with other people. I really don't have nearly as much interest in yet another antagonistic game against other people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
By contrast they have been a bit frustrated with PFO. They mentioned going into a dungeon and having a good time killing monsters. But they were a bit irritated when their characters, weakened after fighting in the dungeon were ambushed by someone who was playing an assassin class and waiting to rob them at the mouth of the dungeon when they came out.
Are you sure they are playing Pathfinder Online? Currently there are no dungeons in PFO.
For me about 90% of the draw of an RPG is playing a cooperative game with other people.
PFO is totally about cooperative play with other people. I'd say it is the norm. Sometimes it is against NPC mobs, and other times it is against other players or player groups.
I think the real distinction to be made is whether or not somebody is up for playing/fighting against a thinking opponent.
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Closest PFS table is an hour away (once a month), but I could play MTG this afternoon at a half a dozen places right in town... *heavy sigh*
I could see how a little campaign crossover would be fun, but I don't think my Battletech players would be into it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One the one hand, Table Top RPG rules make questionable CRPG rules and terrible MMORPG rules. So I don't have any expectation of that type of translation.
As for what makes PFO "Pathfinder" is still minimal. In the starter towns there are a few priests of some of the Gods. The bank does mention Abadar, and if you look at the Cleric domains they mention their associated Gods.
Both Thornkeep and the Emerald Spire are detailed in table top books.
And the Goblins are Pathfinder Goblins.
But at this point it seems mostly like a cosmetic homage.
Outside of Emerald Lodge's player created charter, there isn't any other reference to The Pathfinder Society.
A few things that would help the the Pathfinder Immersion.
* Have formal places of worship for various gods. Even allow player settlements to dedicate themselves is they so choose.
* More outside regional influences. But this is mostly allowing more cosmetic changes to player characters. I would like to see Ulfin, Gurundi, and other nationalities.
* More variety of monsters. Ghouls (and other fleshy undead) and elementals would be my choice for next set of models. Maybe some orcs as well as Lions, Tigers, and Bears!
I don't know how much of these are "in the works" but I don't think you will pull "The Pathfinder Crowd" until there is more Pathfinder to be had.
There is a lot of cooperative play in PFO.
But a lot of that cooperation is in preparation for PvP wars.
What will be interesting to see is whether there's a meaningful place for players (not just alts) who are civilians.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All of the escalation mobs and quest flavor text is solidly rooted in Golarion lore.
The social dynamics between the settlements and companies is pretty much identical to those described in the Guide to the River Kingdoms.
I think my issue right now is the level of Sameness around the map.
* All settlements are the same layout
* Limited character models.
* limited monster models.
Though it might be good for me to pick up my copy of the Guide to the River Kingdoms and give it a read.
On the other side it is really cool to see half a dozen goblins die in unison!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think my issue right now is the level of Sameness around the map.
No one wants dwarven buildings and dwarven guards more than Forgeholm. Everytime I see a thornguard in my settlement, I wish for the day we don't have to rely on humans to guard our buildings.
But additional art assets are in a far backseat to bug fixes and gameplay improvements.|
Goblin Squad Member
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I think my issue right now is the level of Sameness around the map.No one wants dwarven buildings and dwarven guards more than Forgeholm. Everytime I see a thornguard in my settlement, I wish for the day we don't have to rely on humans to guard our buildings.
But additional art assets are in a far backseat to bug fixes and gameplay improvements.
I doubt that. GW has 21 staff, a bunch of them have to be artists. Most artists can't program worth jack, so they will be working on art assets while the programmers fix bugs.
Once the programmers have time from bug fixes, then all of the artists completed art upgrades can be added to the game with (hopefully) little hassle.
Personally, I would like to see guild cloaks (with guilds able to create or send to GW their own emblems) as the next large art project.
CEO
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By contrast they have been a bit frustrated with PFO. They mentioned going into a dungeon and having a good time killing monsters. But they were a bit irritated when their characters, weakened after fighting in the dungeon were ambushed by someone who was playing an assassin class and waiting to rob them at the mouth of the dungeon when they came out.Are you sure they are playing Pathfinder Online? Currently there are no dungeons in PFO.
Yeah, I have to agree. What your friends are describing can NOT be PFO because they are describing something that isn't in the game yet.
-Lisa
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CEO
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Yeah as a kickstarter backer, I have tried PFO a couple of times, but is seems currently rather unpolished.
The fact, that I have only recently started to play PFS is a factor, it tends to give me what I want.
Of course the PFO client sometimes dies, and I have to install it again , that really motivates me.
Sebastian:
The game gets better and better every couple of weeks. That is how fast we are upgrading the game with new features, bug fixing, and polishing the game.
Just a few months ago in Alpha there was a lot of crashing and slow play, but the team has really done a good job of fixing all those issues. I haven't had a crash since the start of Early Enrollment and I have been playing almost every day.
Remember, this game is a work in progress. It progresses fast and is evolving rapidly. Don't judge it based on your experience from even a month ago. It has gotten that much better.
-Lisa
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CEO
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A few things that would help the the Pathfinder Immersion.
* Have formal places of worship for various gods. Even allow player settlements to dedicate themselves is they so choose.
* More outside regional influences. But this is mostly allowing more cosmetic changes to player characters. I would like to see Ulfin, Gurundi, and other nationalities.
* More variety of monsters. Ghouls (and other fleshy undead) and elementals would be my choice for next set of models. Maybe some orcs as well as Lions, Tigers, and Bears!
We plan to eventually have temples for each of the core gods (heck, even more if the game proves super popular). The gods will play a big role in the game. Right now, there are a lot of art assets to create to make this happen and that is the blocker. But eventually, you will see different temples based on which god was chosen for a settlement. Remember, we are two years into a 5 year cycle.
One of the things that is going into the game sooner rather than later is the Faction system. This will bring in a lot of regional influences, giving you various groups that you can become affiliated with. Also, many of the escalations have regional influences. There are Mordant Spire elves and Ustalavian invaders.
We are working on more models for monsters. We already have goblin ghouls and ghoul dogs in the game. As for elementals, I may have seen something on Zeke's computer recently...
-Lisa
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Goblin Squad Member
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We had an instance of falling through the world as well--a character was running through a Phaeros tower hex to another adjacent hex for the Keepers to claim and fell through on reaching the target hex. I actually forgot to get that one reported in as a bug...
But to the topic of PFS folks in PFO, I'd encourage you to give it a go! There are folks like me that have been on the TT side for years and are very much into the RP aspects and potential. The more, then merrier (and less time I have to talk to silent hexes full of confused MMO folks...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Heh, yes I've taken to always using Hex unfortunately, as so many people seem to ignore Local entirely. I'd spout off all sorts of things, only to find nobody was listening until I switched over. But then I'm broadcasting my RP to the entire Hex which can be irritating. I look forward to some refinement in the chat options.
I'd accept a definition of "local".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe Local chat extends as far as the character draw distance. If you can see them, they can hear you in Local. This could be a faulty impression, though.
It would interesting to see if this is affected by zoom level on the minimap?
I kinda thought it was basically the same radius in which you can see another players marker on the minimap.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Zoom level doesn't change the distance at which you can view characters. It only change the scale.
Perception skill does though I think.
As far as PvP goes I think its going to end up like EVE.
The reputation of EVE is a very dangerous PVP focused game however I have multiple trade/industrial alts (including some based in losec which is actually more dangerous than null) and they happily go about their business with no great risk of loss from PvP. Its actually rare to lose a Jump Freighter and most are probably lost to corp infiltration and betrayal or sheer stupidity.
PFO will likely be the same, have a harsh PvP rep but in reality crafters and traders that take sensible precautions will be able to conduct business relatively unmolested.
Certainly the current PvP focus in the forums is quite at odds with what actually happens in game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A few things that would help the the Pathfinder Immersion.
* Have formal places of worship for various gods. Even allow player settlements to dedicate themselves is they so choose.
* More outside regional influences. But this is mostly allowing more cosmetic changes to player characters. I would like to see Ulfin, Gurundi, and other nationalities.
* More variety of monsters. Ghouls (and other fleshy undead) and elementals would be my choice for next set of models. Maybe some orcs as well as Lions, Tigers, and Bears!We plan to eventually have temples for each of the core gods (heck, even more if the game proves super popular). The gods will play a big role in the game. Right now, there are a lot of art assets to create to make this happen and that is the blocker. But eventually, you will see different temples based on which god was chosen for a settlement. Remember, we are two years into a 5 year cycle.
One of the things that is going into the game sooner rather than later is the Faction system. This will bring in a lot of regional influences, giving you various groups that you can become affiliated with. Also, many of the escalations have regional influences. There are Mordant Spire elves and Ustalavian invaders.
We are working on more models for monsters. We already have goblin ghouls and ghoul dogs in the game. As for elementals, I may have seen something on Zeke's computer recently...
-Lisa
I am aware of the long plan. Hence why I started now.
I am enjoying the game, but it isn't "Pathfindery" yet :)|
Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah as a kickstarter backer, I have tried PFO a couple of times, but is seems currently rather unpolished.
The fact, that I have only recently started to play PFS is a factor, it tends to give me what I want.
Of course the PFO client sometimes dies, and I have to install it again , that really motivates me.
Sebastian:
The game gets better and better every couple of weeks. That is how fast we are upgrading the game with new features, bug fixing, and polishing the game.
Just a few months ago in Alpha there was a lot of crashing and slow play, but the team has really done a good job of fixing all those issues. I haven't had a crash since the start of Early Enrollment and I have been playing almost every day.
Remember, this game is a work in progress. It progresses fast and is evolving rapidly. Don't judge it based on your experience from even a month ago. It has gotten that much better.
-Lisa
I re installed it after my post and will give it a try, once I have some time.
I never under stood the TCG crowd when they force you to rebuy almost your entire deck every year to keep playing formally. No thanks.
Not to defend this, because I don't fully either, but I'd assume the same reason I have to purchase a new $15-30 book just so I can remain legal when I use a single feat or monster stat/etc. on a character. Being strictly honest, most of us know that nobody cares whether someone owns the manual when we're playing in a homebrew/between friends game of PF. It doesn't matter if you looked up a feat online to use, or pulled it from a buddy's book.
Being a bit of a newb, and not really having much experience with PFS, I have to say based on the posts here on the forum, seems kinda like raid mode on any MMO to me... At least in terms of 'You have to step up your game, be legal, know what you're doing, and in some cases depending on the crowd, have the right build (here's looking at you, WoW Elitists). Given, I assume less of that last goes on.. at least I hope.
I'm not sure if it's a good or bad thing considering a lot of new players to PF come through this way at the conventions/etc.. On one hand, great that they maybe have to learn it the right way first, like most of us learned math longhand first, then were given calculators. On the other.. well.. You try telling the sixth dude in a row that he can't use the build he'd actually ENJOY, because he hasn't spent the $150 in manuals he needs to back it up with another GM that might be picky as hell about him having them.
But yeah. Having read a bit on here, GMs and players alike within PFS seem REALLY picky about having you come to the table with all your ducks in a row. While I to some degree applaud that for the sake of not getting bogged down, it does take a little out of the fun of being part of a game. Any thread about Hero Lab, some of the regularly trolled or flameragers about paper character sheets vs electronic... the list kinda goes on. People seem really picky.
Having GM'ed a few simple home-run games myself now, I gotta say that's sorta one of the things I hope doesn't completely translate over, is that anal attention to needless detail.
I'd rather have the same vibe of fun that my players do when they manage to hit that cyclops three levels higher than them in the eye and instantly kill him (because the ranger rolled a 20, and damn that his damage dice was 3 points short of a kill), because it was the right story/fun decision to make as the GM, than have it be a Pathfinder-themed WoW clone with people only there to cram their way to max level by day 5 and constantly rerun raids for gear.
That said, in PFS it kinda has its place when you're a GM trying to run 3 or 4 dozen people through a scheduled campaign 6 or 7 times through the course of a 3 day convention stay. I can understand it, even if I'm not terribly fond of it all. I do try to see both sides of the coin. Also, I can't fault Paizo for wanting to not go broke, after creating a pretty wonderful product for us, and a place to come together and enjoy it.
Also, sorry for the terrible formatting above. It's about 6:30am and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..............
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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By contrast they have been a bit frustrated with PFO. They mentioned going into a dungeon and having a good time killing monsters. But they were a bit irritated when their characters, weakened after fighting in the dungeon were ambushed by someone who was playing an assassin class and waiting to rob them at the mouth of the dungeon when they came out.Are you sure they are playing Pathfinder Online? Currently there are no dungeons in PFO.
Gaskon, the conversation is now well over a moth in the past. I think they mentioned a dungeon, but it may of just been monsters. At this point, I'm not really sure which.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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By contrast they have been a bit frustrated with PFO. They mentioned going into a dungeon and having a good time killing monsters. But they were a bit irritated when their characters, weakened after fighting in the dungeon were ambushed by someone who was playing an assassin class and waiting to rob them at the mouth of the dungeon when they came out.Are you sure they are playing Pathfinder Online? Currently there are no dungeons in PFO.Yeah, I have to agree. What your friends are describing can NOT be PFO because they are describing something that isn't in the game yet.
-Lisa
Lisa,
thank you for taking the time to answer. As I just said to Gaskon, this conversation is now over a month in the past. And I'm now not entirely sure if they mentioned dungeon or killing monsters. Now I'm not really sure which they said.
Again thank you for taking the time to answer,
Myles Crocker
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PFS stuff ...
I understand what you are saying and I agree with you to a certain extent. However
It is possible to play a perfectly capable and fun character with only the CRB. My first PFS character was CRB only and is just about ready to retire.
There is no point to supporting PFS if people refuse to buy any PF products. They are a company that has to stay profitable to stay in business and keep providing us nice things.
But even more important from the perspective of a PFS GM, I have several times had guys bring builds that don't work or at least not the way they think they do. A couple months ago there was a guy with a 3rd level archer that was doing close to 100 points of damage almost every round.
Usually I don't think they are actively trying to cheat. When they do have that mistaken build it is usually from a multitude of rarely chosen material, put together in some weird and incorrect fashion, not carefully read, and gleaned from half understood comments about some web build.
If they don't have the book, they often don't read into it carefully enough to understand it.
If I don't have that book, I can't check it and/or show him the issues.
At least twice, the d20 site has been terribly wrong.
Once they didn't realize the d20 site included home brew suggested stuff as well as 3rd party material.
I am not a build/rule disciplinarian. If it isn't affecting the game, I let the scenario play out, go check the sources, and then let them know what the problem is so they can correct if before the next time they play.
Only twice in several years has it been something extreme enough in its effect on the session that I had to stop mid scenario and say they had to stop using that power. One was the archer above and the other was a guy that had some bizarre combination of buffs that 'he had been told' stacked when they clearly didn't.
Note: More often the issue was not. They were doing something legal that I had not seen before. But again, without the book, I would have no way to know that and might be likely to say you can't use something that obviously overpowered that can't possibly work that way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gaskon, the conversation is now well over a moth in the past. I think they mentioned a dungeon, but it may of just been monsters. At this point, I'm not really sure which.
No problem. PFO in its current state is definitely not a game for everyone.
Player looting will be added soon, which will add the potential for even more unpleasant experiences.
But as of a month ago, or even yesterday, there were no dungeons, and no way for someone to "rob" your character in PFO. I just wanted to make sure your friends didn't have a bad experience in some other game, and then mistake that for Pathfinder by accident.