why are slings so bad?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Flinging alchemical items at -4 penalty is fun. If completely asymmetrical rocks you find anywhere is allowed, and nonproficiency penalty is only -4, lobbing an alchemist fire from across the field at -4 penalty is not unreasonable...and since you're targeting touch, it's not unviable, either!


kestral287 wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
Clubs are free, and they are not that much worse than swords.

Compared to the longsword: A die smaller and half as likely to crit.

Compared to the scimitar: a third as likely to crit.

Pretty big differences there, honestly.

They are not comparable to the longsword or scimitar though, as those are slashing weapons and bludgeoning is generally considered a better damage type (and valued higher by the system).

The martial variant of a club is the warhammer, which deals an average of one more damage per regular hit and deals +50% damage on a crit.

A martial character with a bunch of melee feats that left her warhammer at the inn and picks up a club will still be very much a viable combatant, they'll lose perhaps 10% of their damage. Relevant but not key. Melee characters tend to rely on large damage bonuses on a quite limited amount of hits (basically their iteratives). Losing 1 dmg and half their crit bonus hurts them, but doesn't cripple them.

A martial character with a bunch of ranged feats that left her composite longbow at home and picks up a sling will lose maybe 50% if not more of her damage. Ranged characters tend to rely on getting a multitude of attacks in (rapid shot, multishot etc) and going from maybe 5 attacks per round to a single attack, and also dropping more than the warhammer>club in single attack damage (1d8x3>1d6x2 vs 1d8x3>1d4x2), is at best crippling.


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Also, for comparison, here are the slings we use in our game:

Martial weapon, 1d4+Str bludgeoning damage, x3 crit. Can be shot with one hand, requires the use of a second hand to reload but can be reloaded while wielding a light shield or buckler (without losing AC bonus). Reloading is a free action. Same range as before. Gets a +8 bonus to hide the weapon.
If someone has simple weapon proficiency, they can use the sling as a simple weapon. When using as a simple weapon, you may not add Str to damage and reloading is a move action.

So far, it has only been used as a backup weapon, but one person has shown interest in playing a slinger.

Compared to bows, it has lower base damage, no manyshot, and lower range but can be used with a shield. It can also be used as a simple weapon, but so can short bows in our games (with the same limitation of no mighty and move action to reload).

Dark Archive

Slings are amazing for a high-Str character. They're the go-to cheap weapon; bows do eventually get better, but at level 1 it's nice to be able to pull rocks and get your full strength to damage right off the bat. Compare a sling (almost free) to a Strength +4 bow (475 GP)... you get a 2 hp difference. Most melees will be saving up for upgrades to save items, weapon buffs, and armor buffs; so the sling tends to last until they finally have 1K to spare for an adaptable bow (to take care of any str-buff bonuses they get along the way).


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It is tough for me get on board with the idea that "slings are amazing" when they require two hands to operate and do less damage than javelins. I'd be more willing to accept a statements like:
- slings are good enough for low levels
- slings are better than javelins if your enemies are really far away
- slings are better than atatls if you don't know about atatls or you're fighting skeletal archers

I mean, slings aren't useless, but they fail to amaze me. Most ranged weapons which aren't bows are pretty depressing when compared to bows though.


boring7 wrote:
And I don't think my last post hammered it enough, slings were *slow* compared to a longbow. It took time to spin up and release a sling shot compared to the Mongolian psychopath shooting 60 arrows from his 40-pound draw bow in two or three minutes.

Mongolian psychopath's bow would have a tremendous draw strength. Like 200+ pounds. They were known to hit targets at over 500 meters. (There's several historical accounts of this).

They had composite bows that far outranged longbows, until the invention of the compound bow, they had the most powerful bows in history(and even with compound bows, few could match them because of the draw strength).

Dark Archive

Slings are better than throwing weapons because of free-action reload; Quick Draw pending.

It's not that "Slings are amazing"; it's that for a non-range person who does not want to spend 1000 GP on an adaptable bow it is a bow less 2 points average damage.


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Thalin wrote:

Slings are better than throwing weapons because of free-action reload; Quick Draw pending.

It's not that "Slings are amazing"; it's that for a non-range person who does not want to spend 1000 GP on an adaptable bow it is a bow less 2 points average damage.

Uhm, what? Free action reload with a sling costs two feats. With throwing weapons it only costs one feat, and that feat is also generally useful outside of shooting fast.

The only reasons why slings would be preferable to throwing weapons is range (which I'll admit is relevant) and being cheaper when you have to get magic ones (but at that point a mightly longbow is a relatively minor expenditure).


Gaberlunzie wrote:
The only reasons why slings would be preferable to throwing weapons is range (which I'll admit is relevant) and being cheaper when you have to get magic ones (but at that point a mightly longbow is a relatively minor expenditure).

That last point is what really kills slings for me. Ultimately, the only real niche for the sling is "Your character wants a ranged weapon, and can't afford a good bow yet."


What bothers me is the Stonebow has the exact same range as a sling...that seems wrong to me. Also, I think a size M stonebow should have 1d8 Dam and a S one should have 1d6.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Slings are not bad in reality.
Slings are not bad in Pathfinder either.
The pros have been pointed out.

Now in terms of Pathfinder mechanics they are inferior only because the game system makes them that way. But even with that slings still have a niche as other folks have pointed out.

There's nothing stopping you from making a house rule that grants sling a free action to reload, have it work with the archery feat lines (manyshot, clustered shots) and so forth.

Heck, just say "it works that way" and call it a sling shot.


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My main issue with slings (or thrown weapons or crossbows, for that matter) isn't so much that they're inferior than bows by default but rather that they never manage to catch up. No matter how many resources you invest into making slings or crossbows a viable ranged combat weapon, you're very likely to be better off if you simply spend the same amount of resources towards archery.

I wish there were more options in place to make slings, thrown weapons and crossbows viable alternatives to archery while also making them feel distinct. Bolt Ace from the ACG is a great step in the right direction here for crossbows, I'd love to see some similar options available for slings and thrown weapons.

Maybe feat options for slings that lets your first attack ricochet to hit a secondary target (think Manyshot, but the extra attack is aimed at someone else) and/or use shields in your off-hand for a more "defensive" ranged combatant than the crossbowman and archer, and a feat chain that lets you use strength in place of dexterity for ranged attacks with a specific thrown weapon?


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To be fair, bolt ace catches up crossbows quite nicely. Being a SAD ranged character without all the BS gun users need to put up with is quite nice.


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Rerednaw wrote:

Slings are not bad in reality.

Slings are not bad in Pathfinder either.
The pros have been pointed out.

Now in terms of Pathfinder mechanics they are inferior only because the game system makes them that way. But even with that slings still have a niche as other folks have pointed out.

There's nothing stopping you from making a house rule that grants sling a free action to reload, have it work with the archery feat lines (manyshot, clustered shots) and so forth.

Heck, just say "it works that way" and call it a sling shot.

If you have to houserule it to make it good, it's probably bad.

Grand Lodge

Kudaku wrote:

My main issue with slings (or thrown weapons or crossbows, for that matter) isn't so much that they're inferior than bows by default but rather that they never manage to catch up. No matter how many resources you invest into making slings or crossbows a viable ranged combat weapon, you're very likely to be better off if you simply spend the same amount of resources towards archery.

I wish there were more options in place to make slings, thrown weapons and crossbows viable alternatives to archery while also making them feel distinct. Bolt Ace from the ACG is a great step in the right direction here for crossbows, I'd love to see some similar options available for slings and thrown weapons.

Maybe feat options for slings that lets your first attack ricochet to hit a secondary target (think Manyshot, but the extra attack is aimed at someone else) and/or use shields in your off-hand for a more "defensive" ranged combatant than the crossbowman and archer, and a feat chain that lets you use strength in place of dexterity for ranged attacks with a specific thrown weapon?

The Ranged Tactics Toolbox has some nice things for thrown weapon builds.


LoneKnave wrote:
To be fair, bolt ace catches up crossbows quite nicely. Being a SAD ranged character without all the BS gun users need to put up with is quite nice.

Agreed, that's why I called out Bolt Ace in my post. :)

I'd still like to see more crossbow options that help make crossbows viable and are not gunslinger-specific though.

Ms. Pleiades wrote:
The Ranged Tactics Toolbox has some nice things for thrown weapon builds.

Nice! Haven't had a chance to read the toolbox yet, crazy days at work lately. The reviews/product discussion didn't seem particularly enthused about the non-bow options. I'll give it a look!


Brom the Obnoxiously Awesome wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
Brom the Obnoxiously Awesome wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
Brom the Obnoxiously Awesome wrote:
They aren't great, unless your a halfling with martial weapon proficiency and high strength. Then, you get a sling staff, which is the darn-tootinest weapon this side of the Okay Coral. Like if you were a halfling cavalier, per-say...

Sling staff is actually a trap option. The sling-specific feat/traits do not apply to it, meaning you can never bring the reload time down below a move action. I guess the slightly improved damage might be worthwhile until you get rapid shot?

*edit*

With warslinger you could be picking up rapid shot at level 1 as a halfling, and even without it you're losing your move action for an extra 1.5 points of damage. There's basically no reason to use the sling staff at all.

Yeah, I was mostly joking, it's not THAT great. However, you do apply your strength instead of DEX, which is good for martial characters, such as my cavalier. I think the best part about it, though, is that I always picture it being a big lacrosse stick, with which you huck little lead balls at people on wolf back. When you think of it like that, it's pretty darn hilarious.

Sling also applies STR to damage, so the staff has no advantage there.

The idea of a lacrosse stick is amusing though :-).

Oh. i did not know that. Well, I guess it does sort of stink. It's a sling and a club, but it's very expensive, whereas both of those items are normally free...

Oh well, I'm still using mine. Halfling pride!

Oh, you kender and your hoopaks.....


Kudaku wrote:
My main issue with slings (or thrown weapons or crossbows, for that matter) isn't so much that they're inferior than bows by default but rather that they never manage to catch up. No matter how many resources you invest into making slings or crossbows a viable ranged combat weapon, you're very likely to be better off if you simply spend the same amount of resources towards archery.

Have to disagree regarding crossbows.

Yes you will be a feat behind the comp bow archer and they will get their strength bonus to damage HOWEVER a Crossbow Archer is more S.A.D. (so higher dex = hit more often especially at low levels) and the crossbow has a higher crit range so a viable critical focused archer can be built - perhaps slightly less DPR but with crit feats to throw into the equation. Completely viable.

Back to slings, the need to have specialist training was their historical downfall however the game could reflect the sling/staff-sling/mini-siege weapon aspect of the sling better. I'm sure there would be players out there who would love to play an oversized staff sling/mini siege weapon (next step up a small trebuchet).

Likewise the armour defeating properties of blunt damage are not realistically reflected in the game - should that be a development of their mechanics? If so why not ALL blunt weapons?


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Rerednaw wrote:

Slings are not bad in reality.

Slings are not bad in Pathfinder either.

They ARE bad in PF.

They combine the range of a shortsling with the accuracy and the complexity of shooting of a longsling.

There should be two weapons:
- Shortsling: Range as is but free action reload
- longsling: Range of a bow and action economy as is.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Crossposting this here.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder/comments/2tvktr/halfling_alternate_racia l_trait_warslinger_vs_the/


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strayshift wrote:


Yes you will be a feat behind the comp bow archer and they will get their strength bonus to damage HOWEVER a Crossbow Archer is more S.A.D. (so higher dex = hit more often especially at low levels) and the crossbow has a higher crit range so a viable critical focused archer can be built - perhaps slightly less DPR but with crit feats to throw into the equation. Completely viable.

Not counting the ace bolt, crossbow are horrible. It is not slightly less DPR. but a lot less. A specialized crossbowman do less damage than switch hitter archer.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:

Slings are not bad in reality.

Slings are not bad in Pathfinder either.
The pros have been pointed out.

Now in terms of Pathfinder mechanics they are inferior only because the game system makes them that way. But even with that slings still have a niche as other folks have pointed out.

There's nothing stopping you from making a house rule that grants sling a free action to reload, have it work with the archery feat lines (manyshot, clustered shots) and so forth.

Heck, just say "it works that way" and call it a sling shot.

If you have to houserule it to make it good, it's probably bad.

Exactly. You don't have to house-rule it to make the sling good.

You certainly could house-rule it if you want to keep up with min-maxing/optimization though if that is how someone defines "good".


meeko wrote:

Crossposting this here.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder/comments/2tvktr/halfling_alternate_racia l_trait_warslinger_vs_the/

That's already been FAQed.

Rerednaw wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:

Slings are not bad in reality.

Slings are not bad in Pathfinder either.
The pros have been pointed out.

Now in terms of Pathfinder mechanics they are inferior only because the game system makes them that way. But even with that slings still have a niche as other folks have pointed out.

There's nothing stopping you from making a house rule that grants sling a free action to reload, have it work with the archery feat lines (manyshot, clustered shots) and so forth.

Heck, just say "it works that way" and call it a sling shot.

If you have to houserule it to make it good, it's probably bad.

Exactly. You don't have to house-rule it to make the sling good.

You certainly could house-rule it if you want to keep up with min-maxing/optimization though if that is how someone defines "good".

I'm curious: since you conceded that slings are mechanically inferior to longbows in every way, then what exactly makes them "good?" Because so far, it seems like the only niche the occupy is "Your character can't have a composite longbow, but still needs a ranged weapon."


They're free, with essentially limitless free ammunition, ridiculously easy to hide, and you can add your strength to the ranged attack bludgeoning damage(a rare combination) they offer without spending money. This can cause chaos in games not prepared for them.


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Everything you have said is true about using rocks as improvised throwing weapons.

So I guess rocks are also good?


A thrown rock, as an improvised throwing weapon, has a range increment of 10 feet and a maximum of 5 range increments. A sling, even using rocks as ammo, has a range increment of 50 feet and a maximum of 10 range increments. The difference between them is -10 to hit at 50 feet and impossible to use beyond that. So no, rocks aren't that good.


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Oh so I guess there ARE standards for weapons being good beyond, and I quote, "free, with essentially limitless free ammunition, ridiculously easy to hide, and you can add your strength to the ranged attack bludgeoning damage(a rare combination) they offer without spending money" to be considered good?

Amazing. We are making such progress here!


Slings adding Str to damage is just ignorant design. Sling, the weapon With which a peasant defeated a giant, surely did not rely on the peasant's strength score to deal damage. Point of a sling is to use rotation. How far\fast the missile travels is a function of the rotation speed and length of the sling.

/realism over, continue thread


Freehold DM wrote:
They're free, with essentially limitless free ammunition, ridiculously easy to hide, and you can add your strength to the ranged attack bludgeoning damage(a rare combination) they offer without spending money. This can cause chaos in games not prepared for them.

If 1d4+str (or 1d3+str with a -1 to attack rolls if you use that "unlimited free" ammo) once per round without spending two feats or being a race with a strength penaly can cause "chaos" in a game, then I really wonder what kind of game is being played.

So playing to the sling's "strengths" we're looking at a halfling using a non-magic sling and rocks off the ground (because how else can it be cheap?): So 1d2+strength mod (yay -2 racial to strength) to hit with a -1 attack roll penalty... oh man, if you have two attacks from BAB that's getting broken. It's like you're going Ray of Frost, Quickened Ray of Frost, but with with arguably less actual DPR due to accuracy issues.


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When I read that slings can “cause chaos in games not prepared for them” I wonder if those slings launch their bullets with a hyperbolic trajectory.

Shadow Lodge

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LazarX wrote:
Gavmania wrote:
avr wrote:
Edit: or, if you're asking why d&d/successors made them bad, it's because they're a weapon associated more with peasants than heroes in shining armor.
Actually, the most famous sling user was King David, who slew the giant Goliath with one. A Hero if ever there was one.
That example is a reinforcement for the rules, because the only reason David actually prevailed in that fight, was major assistance from the Abrahamic OverGod. He wasn't expected to win with a weapon so trivial as a sling stone.

That's the conventional interpretation. Here's another one.

Sovereign Court

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Weirdo wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Gavmania wrote:
avr wrote:
Edit: or, if you're asking why d&d/successors made them bad, it's because they're a weapon associated more with peasants than heroes in shining armor.
Actually, the most famous sling user was King David, who slew the giant Goliath with one. A Hero if ever there was one.
That example is a reinforcement for the rules, because the only reason David actually prevailed in that fight, was major assistance from the Abrahamic OverGod. He wasn't expected to win with a weapon so trivial as a sling stone.
That's the conventional interpretation. Here's another one.

Yep - it's almost as if it was a case of rock/scissors/paper. :P


strayshift wrote:


Yes you will be a feat behind the comp bow archer and they will get their strength bonus to damage HOWEVER a Crossbow Archer is more S.A.D. (so higher dex = hit more often especially at low levels) and the crossbow has a higher crit range so a viable critical focused archer can be built - perhaps slightly less DPR but with crit feats to throw into the equation. Completely viable.

Actually, it is pretty trash.

Here is level 10:

Bobby Bowman:

Bobby Bowman
Human fighter 10
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +10; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+10 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 94 (10d10+30)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +8 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk longsword +17/+12 (1d8+6/19-20)
Ranged +3 adaptive composite longbow +21/+21/+16 (1d8+18/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (bows +4, heavy blades +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 23, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 29 (33 vs. disarm, 33 vs. sunder)
Feats Clustered Shots[UC], Deadly Aim, Greater Weapon Focus (longbow), Hammer The Gap[UC], Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Manyshot, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Climb +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +14, Stealth +13, Survival +5, Swim +4
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +1 full plate, +3 adaptive composite longbow, mwk longsword, belt of physical perfection +2, bracers of falcon's aim, cloak of resistance +2, gloves of dueling, 635 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Hammer the Gap With a full-attack action, each hit against the same opponent deals extra damage
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows


His DPR is roughly ~81.29 (hammer the gap adds slightly more, but hard to calculate)

Chris Crossbowman:

Bobby Bowman
Human fighter 10
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +10; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+10 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 94 (10d10+30)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +8 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk longsword +17/+12 (1d8+6/19-20)
Ranged +3 adaptive composite longbow +21/+21/+16 (1d8+18/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (bows +4, heavy blades +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 23, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 29 (33 vs. disarm, 33 vs. sunder)
Feats Clustered Shots[UC], Deadly Aim, Greater Weapon Focus (longbow), Hammer The Gap[UC], Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Manyshot, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Climb +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +14, Stealth +13, Survival +5, Swim +4
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +1 full plate, +3 adaptive composite longbow, mwk longsword, belt of physical perfection +2, bracers of falcon's aim, cloak of resistance +2, gloves of dueling, 635 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Hammer the Gap With a full-attack action, each hit against the same opponent deals extra damage
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows

--------------------

Chris Crossbowman
Human fighter 10
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +4
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+10 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 94 (10d10+30)
Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +8 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk spiked gauntlet +16/+11 (1d4+5)
Ranged +3 heavy crossbow +22/+22/+17 (1d10+13/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (crossbows +4, close +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 15, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 29 (33 vs. disarm, 33 vs. sunder)
Feats Clustered Shots[UC], Critical Focus, Crossbow Mastery[APG], Deadly Aim, Greater Weapon Focus (heavy crossbow), Hammer The Gap[UC], Iron Will, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (heavy crossbow)
Skills Perception +4
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +1 full plate, +3 heavy crossbow, mwk spiked gauntlet, belt of physical perfection +2, bracers of falcon's aim, cloak of resistance +2, gloves of dueling, masterwork backpack, 1,950 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Crossbow Mastery (Heavy crossbow) You can reload any crossbow as a free action. With your chosen crossbow type, this does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Hammer the Gap With a full-attack action, each hit against the same opponent deals extra damage
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Heavy crossbow) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Weapon Training (Close) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Weapon Training (Crossbows) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Crossbows


His DPR is 57.33. That is a very significant difference, especially when investing basically every feat into crossbowing.

While this is at level 10, there are jumps where the bow is much better, such as from 1-3 because of rapid shot, and 6 onward because of manyshot. The crossbow also does not have hammer the gap which is actually pretty significant especially when hasted


And the critical feats in few levels time? Which was the point of my argument - you do less damage but the build is viable as a crit fighter build (especially weapon master fighter).

Also you built the crossbowman with fifteen strength, my point was that you don't need a high strength and can pump dexterity thus having a better chance to hit (thus improving DPR slightly). This is significant at low levels where you will miss a lot firing into combat and for the initial levels of your iterative attacks. You are building a very different archer here.

However the thread is about slings, and I still think the staff-sling could be developed a lot more.


strayshift wrote:


Also you built the crossbowman with fifteen strength, my point was that you don't need a high strength and can pump dexterity thus having a better chance to hit (thus improving DPR slightly). This is significant at low levels where you will miss a lot firing into combat and for the initial levels of your iterative attacks. You are building a very different archer here.

How do you expect to wear full plate and carry it? I started with 13, 15 is from the belt.

Crit feats do NOT make up 30 dpr, not even close


CWheezy wrote:
strayshift wrote:


Also you built the crossbowman with fifteen strength, my point was that you don't need a high strength and can pump dexterity thus having a better chance to hit (thus improving DPR slightly). This is significant at low levels where you will miss a lot firing into combat and for the initial levels of your iterative attacks. You are building a very different archer here.

How do you expect to wear full plate and carry it? I started with 13, 15 is from the belt.

Crit feats do NOT make up 30 dpr, not even close

1. There's always Mithril full plate which would be a good investment on the merits of the max dex increase it gives in addition to reduced weight.

2. The fairly regularly occurring debuffs offered by the critical feats are arguably a fair trade for the lessened DPR, though the benefits aren't really tangible in calculations like this.


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"Why are slings so bad?"

I have a halfling rogue in my party who regularly dishes out 12d6+24 temporary damage with one shot from a sling. He's killed foes with one shot just from temporary damage. It's enough to make me shudder.


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Temporary damage?


Ammo Drop says you can load a sling with one hand... So, if your GM allows Ammo Drop, you can use your heavy shield (or even tower shield, I guess) constantly along with your sling. Pretty spiffy. It's like you took quick draw to throw stuff, but you have vastly superior range, slightly lower damage, and a nominally lower rate of fire (unless you take the second feat to reload as a free action). You also only have to enchant the one sling... Guess you can spend that extra gold enchanting your shield, eh?

Bucklers can't (by RAW, for some reason) be used with a bow (you can wear it, but it'll just net you -1 to hit), though I guess Crossbows could, if you don't mind firing one handed at huge penalties (unless I guess you have a hand crossbow, but why? They are even worse than slings...).

If your GM allows Drop Load, you can take that and the Warslinger trait, and then go to town, full attacking while wearing a heavy shield. If you want to get really silly, take Missile Shield and/or Spell Shield - now you're the ultimate mid-range skirmisher (until you get hit with a will save, but now we are talking magic/martial disparity, which is a whole different can of worms).

Even if you're not a Halfling, if you do spend the two feats, you can wear any shield and full attack with a sling. If you don't want to invest anything, you can still use a light shield or buckler with your sling - not bad for, say, a Paladin, who might already be wearing a light shield. Did you realize Smite Evil doesn't say "melee attacks?" Ouch...

It's niche and works much better if you're a halfling, but it's something.


Non-lethal, methinks.


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Are slings in pathfinder great weapons? No. Are they bad weapons? No.

Slings are cheap, simple weapons that almost any class can use. They wouldn't be the go-to main weapon of a martial class character, unless you revolved around a challenging or niche build (such as the Halfling slinger). Yet they would be a respectable backup weapon for the martial character on a budget.

Wizards don't get the use of all simple weapons automatically, otherwise I would say a good choice for a half BAB PC that can use all simple weapons.

It is one of the druid's selections.

The sling itself is free and weightless, so great choice for a backup weapon. The ammunition is heavy and no iterative attacks, so likely not a choice for main weapon or one that you would enchant.

In short, it's middle of the road. I wouldn't laugh at someone for using it, nor would it be my first choice of armaments. I've had PCs with slings before, yet usually as a backup. Against skeletal undead and oozes, they fall into the category of cheap weapons you were thankful to have (like clubs).


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Cyrus Lanthier wrote:
Ammo Drop says you can load a sling with one hand... So, if your GM allows Ammo Drop, you can use your heavy shield (or even tower shield, I guess) constantly along with your sling. Pretty spiffy. It's like you took quick draw to throw stuff, but you have vastly superior range, slightly lower damage, and a nominally lower rate of fire (unless you take the second feat to reload as a free action). You also only have to enchant the one sling... Guess you can spend that extra gold enchanting your shield, eh?

Though of course, quick draw is an excellent feat in general, and throwing weapons are not intended as a main weapon type but rather for "switch hitters" or melee characters that want to have something to do when the enemy's out of reach.

So what it comes down to is that with a larger investment (two feats vs one feat) the sling can be better at long-term ranged combat than a weapon not intended for long-term ranged combat.

Quote:


Bucklers can't (by RAW, for some reason) be used with a bow (you can wear it, but it'll just net you -1 to hit),

This is kind of an iffy part of the rules. A bow is neither an off-hand weapon* or a two-handed weapon, so from a strict RAW perspective I think you'd still get the bonus. But it is probably not intended, so one should expect table variance.

Unless there's some FAQ I'm not aware of.

*unless you somehow manage to two-weapon fight with it, like if you're a marilith

Cyrus Lanthier wrote:


If your GM allows Drop Load, you can take that and the Warslinger trait, and then go to town, full attacking while wearing a heavy shield. If you want to get really silly, take Missile Shield and/or Spell Shield - now you're the ultimate mid-range skirmisher (until you get hit with a will save, but now we are talking magic/martial disparity, which is a whole different can of worms).

Talking about only situations with no magics involved is useless in pathfinder. Being a mid-ranger means you're a lot more exposed to short-range spells; at 10th level, Dominate Person has a range of 50ft, which means a slinger is likely to be within that but someone with a composite longbow is likely not.

Quote:
Even if you're not a Halfling, if you do spend the two feats, you can wear any shield and full attack with a sling. If you don't want to invest anything, you can still use a light shield or buckler with your sling - not bad for, say, a Paladin, who might already be wearing a light shield. Did you realize Smite Evil doesn't say "melee attacks?" Ouch...

A paladin will always be better off with a bow.


Brom the Obnoxiously Awesome wrote:
They aren't great, unless your a halfling with martial weapon proficiency and high strength. Then, you get a sling staff, which is the darn-tootinest weapon this side of the Okay Coral. Like if you were a halfling cavalier, per-say...

Does the halfling ride into battle with a sling staff in one hand and a lance in the other?



I wasn't suggesting looking at a situation with no magic involved, just that we shouldn't be comparing the sling directly to a wizard/primary caster, because the warrior (almost) always will lose that fight regardless. It's about sling vs other weapons, and no weapon saves you from wizards, really (unless maybe it's by having a prepared action to hit them and try to disrupt their spell, which Ammo Drop puts you in a great position to do, actually).

My point about the Paladin is that he doesn't have to take off the shield to use the sling. He definitively isn't better off with the bow at lower levels, when he can't afford a composite bow appropriate to his strength even if he wanted to spend the action to take the thing off. Zero feat investment, he can just nail something with a sling (Only once per round, of course. Still, Smite Evil hurts).


CWheezy wrote:
strayshift wrote:


Also you built the crossbowman with fifteen strength, my point was that you don't need a high strength and can pump dexterity thus having a better chance to hit (thus improving DPR slightly). This is significant at low levels where you will miss a lot firing into combat and for the initial levels of your iterative attacks. You are building a very different archer here.

How do you expect to wear full plate and carry it? I started with 13, 15 is from the belt.

Crit feats do NOT make up 30 dpr, not even close

*Sigh*

You don't wear plate mail.

Anyhow this disagreement belongs on another thread.


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Why are they so bad? Because they will always do less damage than the crossbow and the bow. Period. Now they're not worthless and yes, they have many fringe benefits. But then so do bows, crossbows, thrown weapons, and most melee weapons.

The point is that, when all is said and done if, in your game the primary method of conflict resolution is dealing enough damage to render your conflict unconscious or dead, then the sling is inferior to other options long term. If however you have a game that places emphasis on other forms of conflict resolution and damage is not a priority, the sling is an excellent choice.

One of the things I've noticed is that lots of folks talk about how great it is that you add your Str bonus to damage. Well there are ways, with melee weapons to use Dex to hit, and further use Dex for damage, keeping the PC SAD long term. Any build however that takes the sling seriously is automatically dependent on 2 stats, forever. There's no way to make Str the determining factor of attack bonus with this weapon and if you go with a straight Dex build for attack bonus and some feats you're leaving one of the so-called "advantages" of the sling on the table.

So in order to take full advantage of the sling you have to be a martially-motivated ranged attacker with lots of disposable feats, not a lot of cash, willing to pump up Str and Dex, and also able to tank somehow despite the lack of cash. Also you've got to pump some of those disposable feats into Will saves and some of your tanking into saves since you'll be flagging at those.

So, a human fighter in a primitive setting maybe?


strayshift wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
strayshift wrote:


Also you built the crossbowman with fifteen strength, my point was that you don't need a high strength and can pump dexterity thus having a better chance to hit (thus improving DPR slightly). This is significant at low levels where you will miss a lot firing into combat and for the initial levels of your iterative attacks. You are building a very different archer here.

How do you expect to wear full plate and carry it? I started with 13, 15 is from the belt.

Crit feats do NOT make up 30 dpr, not even close

*Sigh*

You don't wear plate mail.

Anyhow this disagreement belongs on another thread.

The answer is that you make the crossbowman so make him as you want. You are right that that discussions belong to another thread...there was a thread like that last year, but I can not find it at the moment.


Mark Hoover wrote:


The point is that, when all is said and done if, in your game the primary method of conflict resolution is dealing enough damage to render your conflict unconscious or dead, then the sling is inferior to other options long term. If however you have a game that places emphasis on other forms of conflict resolution and damage is not a priority, the sling is an excellent choice.

Not sure what many other things the sling do besides doing damage to kill enemies in combat.


The main problem with the sling is not it's base stats but that it does not get any support in the form of meaningful feats or abilities at all.
Bows and, to a smaller extend, crossbows have tons of feats, magic items, spells and class abilities to support them.

And if the community asks for more sling stuff they get told that this will not happen because using slings in combat is like throwing water balloons.

If rapid reload, many-shot, bracers of falcons aim, the arcane archer archetype and similar things worked with slings they would still be worse than bows but they would not be a trap option for anything else than "I have a free backup weapon."

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