Why is magical flight so terrible?


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You might not be a wizard. Sorcerers, for example, don't usually have skill points to spare.

(Though usually someone who can fly and puts in no skill ranks does so because they assume their GM won't bother going through the hassle of using the flying rules.)


Ckorik wrote:
Undone wrote:

Can I just point out something.

Quote:
Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:
Which is +4 for "Fly" the spell so at 5th level it is impossible to fall without a -2 or -3 dexterity modifier when added to the half caster level bonus. With a good dex you can eventually reach auto success rates.

For an alchemist +7 - if he puts a point int the fly skill that's +4.

We will assume his dex is horrible and his net (for 1 skill point) is a +8 (-3 dex)

That still puts him at needing to only roll a 2 or better to move less than 1/2 speed (5 foot step anyone?) and only needing a 7 or better to hover.

That's from a single skill point.

If he put 4-5 skill points in it he'd be in the 'only fail on a 1' for hover and 5 or better for a straight up.

At some point he could realistically say 'why am I rolling' with a few more skill points - you can't fail a skill check on a 1 - so once he has a high enough skill that a 1 will bring him over the check needed he can stop making those rolls.

The point being that it shouldn't be really that difficult.

First, you don't fail on a 1.

Then, even if you fail by 5 or more, you don't fall when flying with Magic.

Let's take a 7th basic alchemist with 8 dex (it is way lower than it should, but whatever). The alchemist has +6 in Fly. It allows her to move less than half speed 85% of the time (100% out of combat), Hover or turn greater than 45° 60% of the time (100% out of combat), and turn 180° or fly upward 35% of the time.

With a single rank, she attains +10 in Fly. It would allow her to move less than half speed 100% of the time, Hover or turn greater than 45° 80% of the time (100% out of combat), and Turn 180° or fly upward 55% of the time (100% out of combat).

With max ranks, she attains +16 in Fly, which would allow her to turn 180+ or fly upward 85% of the time in combat, and to do whatever else she would wants to do without even doing a check.

If this alchemist fail at one of those check, the only thing that she would have to do is fly more than half her speed, without turning more than 45° or flying upward more than 45°. She wouldn't ever risk falling without huge winds or collision.


It's magical flight, or the ability to fly without wings. Older and I assume even current editions of D&D had the fly spell allow you to hover in place. I get why the RAW states you need a fly skill or the Hover feat to hover in place for those creatures using winged flight (of whatever means,) but the idea behind the fly spell is similar to Superman. It's silly to assume that with such flight you need to make a skill check to simply hover. Making greater then 45 degree turns, etc, makes sense. I would house rule this one. Otherwise any wizard or spellcaster that doesn't take any ranks in the fly skill is going to fall to his death the minute he has to stop for any reason at lower levels.

Scarab Sages

stormcrow27 wrote:
It's magical flight, or the ability to fly without wings. Older and I assume even current editions of D&D had the fly spell allow you to hover in place. I get why the RAW states you need a fly skill or the Hover feat to hover in place for those creatures using winged flight (of whatever means,) but the idea behind the fly spell is similar to Superman. It's silly to assume that with such flight you need to make a skill check to simply hover. Making greater then 45 degree turns, etc, makes sense. I would house rule this one. Otherwise any wizard or spellcaster that doesn't take any ranks in the fly skill is going to fall to his death the minute he has to stop for any reason at lower levels.

This your not flapping your wings or trying to balance aerodynamics you magically sustaining yourself in the air. It takes more effort for me to walk than to stand in one spot (not much but some) and I always saw magical flight as the same thing.

@Undone
As for skillpoints 7 a level is nowhere near enough. At least I always find myself coming up short (spellcraft, knowledge skills, craft skills, profession skills, healing, perception, flight, survival) so much to buy, so few points. At a bare minimum I need (spellcraft, knowledge arcana, knowledge the planes, perception) that's four right there, I want at least one point in all the knowledge skills to use them, I like taking perception, profession cooking, craft drawing and that's 7 then there's swim, stealth, craft weapons etc, etc.


Avh wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
Undone wrote:

Can I just point out something.

Quote:
Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:
Which is +4 for "Fly" the spell so at 5th level it is impossible to fall without a -2 or -3 dexterity modifier when added to the half caster level bonus. With a good dex you can eventually reach auto success rates.

For an alchemist +7 - if he puts a point int the fly skill that's +4.

We will assume his dex is horrible and his net (for 1 skill point) is a +8 (-3 dex)

That still puts him at needing to only roll a 2 or better to move less than 1/2 speed (5 foot step anyone?) and only needing a 7 or better to hover.

That's from a single skill point.

If he put 4-5 skill points in it he'd be in the 'only fail on a 1' for hover and 5 or better for a straight up.

At some point he could realistically say 'why am I rolling' with a few more skill points - you can't fail a skill check on a 1 - so once he has a high enough skill that a 1 will bring him over the check needed he can stop making those rolls.

The point being that it shouldn't be really that difficult.

First, you don't fail on a 1.

Then, even if you fail by 5 or more, you don't fall when flying with Magic.

Let's take a 7th basic alchemist with 8 dex (it is way lower than it should, but whatever). The alchemist has +6 in Fly. It allows her to move less than half speed 85% of the time (100% out of combat), Hover or turn greater than 45° 60% of the time (100% out of combat), and turn 180° or fly upward 35% of the time.

With a single rank, she attains +10 in Fly. It would allow her to move less than half speed 100% of the time, Hover or turn greater than 45° 80% of the time (100% out of combat), and Turn 180° or fly upward 55% of the time (100% out of combat).

With max ranks, she attains +16 in Fly, which would allow her to turn 180+ or fly upward 85% of the time in combat, and to do whatever else she...

I'm not arguing with you - I am thinking you may have misread my post (I bolded the part where I noted you can't fail on a one).

We (at our table) only worry about fly checks when there is something major going on (grapple in the air, being shot at while flying perhaps, a dragon breathing at you ... ) we never worry about it for just moving - not for the fly *spell* - now wings on the other hand... that's a different story.


Senko wrote:
This your not flapping your wings or trying to balance aerodynamics you magically sustaining yourself in the air. It takes more effort for me to walk than to stand in one spot (not much but some) and I always saw magical flight as the same thing.

Well, that's not how magical flight is intended to work in Pathfinder. It's a difficult skill that involves agility. I imagine that your body becomes lighter and you gain the ability to manipulate currents of air around you to propel yourself around.


Matthew Downie wrote:

You might not be a wizard. Sorcerers, for example, don't usually have skill points to spare.

(Though usually someone who can fly and puts in no skill ranks does so because they assume their GM won't bother going through the hassle of using the flying rules.)

Sage Sorcerers will likely have more Skill Points then a Rogue. Other Sorcerers will struggle though ya.


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Avh wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
You can take 10 on this check - so if you don't put any points into the skill at all you have a +17 unless you are trying something really tricky or there is a hurricane.

If what he was saying about there being hostile forces nearby was true, that should definitely count as 'immediate danger/distracted'. Ergo, not in combat he wouldn't be able take 10 in that particular situation. Otherwise though, yeah that'd work.

Derklord wrote:
I don't think you can ever fall using magical flight. Failing a fly check (by 5 or more) only has an effect if you use wings to fly. RAW you need to make checks for moving less then half your speed or hovering, but the result has absolutly no effect whatsoever.
If you don't fall or descend in some way, then why even require a check to hover? Pass the check = you hover; don't pass the check = you also hover? Seems like a common sense conclusion that those two checks apply equally to winged/wingless flight.
If you fail the Hover check (or the less than half your speed check), you MUST move at least half your speed.

Yeeeaaah, I don't think that's right. Let's look at the skill again:

"Fly wrote:
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.

So, in the scenario we're in, the alchemist or wizard or whatever elects to not move 50+% of their flight speed in a turn. That means a check is needed to remain flying. What's it called when you're in mid-air and not flying because of, among other things, a failed skill check? Yep, falling.

Then there's the obvious scenario of, "I just used a full-rounds worth of actions and can't take a move action". It's a very obvious way for someone to gain an extra move action every turn, maybe even one that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity since it's FORCED movement due to a failed check. I can't see anyone in their right mind arguing that's how it would work in the game.

It seems people are ascribing a little too much awesomeness to magical flight. You should be able to fall using that skill if the magical power helping you stay aloft is at bare minimum strength and you're neither skilled at it nor agile enough to take on the task intuitively. Will you fall as easily or under as many circumstances as with winged flight? No, but then that's the balancing factor: dispel magic won't knock the dragon out of the sky like it might the wizard.

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Even if I only get 2 skills per level on a sorcerer...I would still put points in flight as soon as I'm able. There aren't many skills that you need to max out all the time, frankly the only one that is worth maxing out in the game is perception, the rest can be many ranks behind.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
If you don't fall or descend in some way, then why even require a check to hover? Pass the check = you hover; don't pass the check = you also hover? Seems like a common sense conclusion that those two checks apply equally to winged/wingless flight.

The fly skill is designed for winged flight. The rules explicitly state a negative result for a failed check only for winged flight.

I strongly disagree with your common sense conclusion - levitation is normaly the very first thing a character new to magical flight can do in pretty much any fantasy setting, like monks hovering while meditating in a lotus seat position.
Also, the Fly spell states "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking (...)" - which would make hovering akin to standing.
Winged flight is aerodynamic flight - that's what birds and airplanes do. Magical flight would be aerostatic flight, that's what balloons and zeppelins do.

Basically, with magical flight, you are weightless. You can't fall because the spell cancels out the gravity!

Avh wrote:
If you fail the Hover check (or the less than half your speed check), you MUST move at least half your speed.

No, not per the rules. The rules say that for winged flight, on a failed check you fall; on magical flight, there is no negative effect in the rules, therefore none exist.

Senko wrote:
Wait it's harder to float in one spot than to move?

Are you serious? Hovering (with winged flight) is way harder! If anything, the DC for hovering should be much harder - for instance, there are only very few kinds of birds capable of hovering (the most known is the hummingbird which is named after the noises it's very uncommon kind of flight produces). There are basically two kinds of hovering, the extremly rapid wing movement of bees, hummingbirds etc. (which also allows flying sideways and backwards) and an highly energy consuming kind a flight some predatory birds can do, where the animal makes swift powerful downward wingstrokes.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Well, that's not how magical flight is intended to work in Pathfinder. It's a difficult skill that involves agility.

As I quoted above, magical flight is as easy as walking - see CRB p.284.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
Nah, Dr. Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme. ;)

He was... Brother Voodoo is now.

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Derklord wrote:
No, not per the rules. The rules say that for winged flight, on a failed check you fall; on magical flight, there is no negative effect in the rules, therefore none exist.

Not directly. However, since with flight - staying in the air requires moving at at least half speed, and not doing so successfully requires a successful skill check... it doesn't take a genius to figure that you'll fall if you fail said skill check.

And you're right - levitating is the 1st thing fantasy characters learn. (Not that it has any impact on a RAW argument.) That's why levitate is a 2nd level spell while fly is a 3rd level spell. If you want to levitate - pick the right spell for it.

Derklord wrote:
As I quoted above, magical flight is as easy as walking - see CRB p.284.

If you mean the fly spell - "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally." you're wrong. It's only referring to the concentration required, not the difficulty. Walking isn't hard either - unless you try to limbo/walk on ice etc. Those require checks. So does doing more than basic flying.

If flying with the spell required no fly checks - why in the world would they even mention the bonus to fly checks that the spell gives you?


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Not directly. However, since with flight - staying in the air requires moving at at least half speed, and not doing so successfully requires a successful skill check... it doesn't take a genius to figure that you'll fall if you fail said skill check.

The rules make absolutly no mention of falling while using magical flight.

"If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage."
That's the only thing in the rules that says what happens if you fail the Fly check and it explicitly only applies if using wings to fly.
Yes, it's stupid that they didn't actually wrote down how magical flight works nowadays. Welcome to Pathfinder! 90% of all the rule questions could be prevented with clear wording, valuing precision over flavor when it comes to language, and a better quality control.
The Fly skill rules are badly written - the Maneuver table gets no explanation whatsoever and the high winds table is only explained in the "environment" 342 pages later.

The Fly skill is a PF invention. In 3.5 it was enough to have good maneuverability, such as from the Fly spell, to have no minimum forward speed to stay airborne, and to hover.
(Note: Everything that requires a Fly check in PF was possible with good/perfect maneuverability and most of it impossible at worse maneuverability, so this is no argument for "it should be effortless".)

The Fly spell explicitly states that it makes flying as easy as walking (just because it's followed by a dependent clause doesn't make it any less true). Moving upwards or under bad condition requires a check - for both. Yet, for both, ordinary stuff is supposed to be easy.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
If flying with the spell required no fly checks - why in the world would they even mention the bonus to fly checks that the spell gives you?

Ascending at more then 45°, sharp turns and flying/not getting blown away in high winds all have negative results if you fail the respective Fly check while using magic to fly.

To put it more simple: To help with what the OP was trying to do.


Derklord wrote:
The rules say that for winged flight, on a failed check you fall; on magical flight, there is no negative effect in the rules, therefore none exist.

The rules say that for winged flight, you fall if you fail by 5. You don't fall if you fail by 1-4, but you don't get to 'Hover' or 'Fly up at greater than 45° angle' either. In which case, the only effect I can think of that could possibly be RAI is that you have to revert to the default action of flying in a straight line, the only thing you can do without making a skill check.

Magical flight is the same, except that you don't fall if you fail by 5+.

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Undone wrote:

Can I just point out something.

Quote:
Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:
Which is +4 for "Fly" the spell so at 5th level it is impossible to fall without a -2 or -3 dexterity modifier when added to the half caster level bonus. With a good dex you can eventually reach auto success rates.

You left out a word:

PRD, Fly skill wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8

Emphasis mine. Your good maneuverability from the fly spell doesn't help your checks. I'm pretty sure the level-based bonus is supposed to represent that.

Actually I'm not sure what section you got your quote from - we may be reading different parts of the rules that say different things.


felinoel wrote:

I fly straight up and roll less than amazing and end up in the dirt right in front of the BBEG I was trying to fly away from.

Why was flight nerfed so hard? I just wanted to get away from the mind controller before I murdered my party as commanded by the BBEG...

x.x

Welcome to pathfinder.

Good luck :) after reading the rules, from front to back, over and over again, even now i still find little rules that trip me up.


ryric wrote:
PRD, Fly skill wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8
Your good maneuverability from the fly spell doesn't help your checks.

Very few people think that's RAI. Why would they mention good maneuverability if it didn't do anything?


Matthew Downie wrote:
ryric wrote:
PRD, Fly skill wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8
Your good maneuverability from the fly spell doesn't help your checks.
Very few people think that's RAI. Why would they mention good maneuverability if it didn't do anything?

Sometimes people can't read, so they will think that even though an ability gives you something, there is some reason you don't actually get it.


Derklord wrote:
The rules make absolutly no mention of falling while using magical flight.

It doesn't have to, it's very clear if you think about it. Not moving 50+% of your speed means a check is necessary to stay flying. If you're not flying (remember, hovering is considered a type of flying in this instance), there's really only one other thing that can happen, which is the gravity wins (for the moment anyways). This is actually really simple stuff.

Derklord wrote:
The Fly spell explicitly states that it makes flying as easy as walking (just because it's followed by a dependent clause doesn't make it any less true). Moving upwards or under bad condition requires a check - for both. Yet, for both, ordinary stuff is supposed to be easy.

The reason it has that second clause is so that we know you don't suffer due to the spell in combat. The prior level spell for wizards which helps you beat gravity, levitate, applies an increasingly steep penalty on attack rolls which never goes below -1. The portion of the sentence which you're insisting means auto-success is actually meant to indicate such problems that might occur under other means of magical levitation/flight do not apply to the fly spell. Context matters, dude.

Also, when did it start being the case that someone with no training in how to fly suddenly being lifted into the air under the effects of low-intensity magic (a third level spell at CL 5 or so) considers the experience in any way 'ordinary'? Walking is easy, that's why air walk doesn't require any special checks to move above the ground using that spell (also, you can run with it, not so with fly). If you practice flying every day for weeks on end, your skill ranks, the bonus from the spell, and other effects should allow it to work no matter what, yes. But when your check is +2 from nothing other than the spell's minimum bonus? Best to have a lot of pillows set down in that case.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You don't get a bonus for maneuverability unless it's a natural fly speed, as opposed to coming from a spell effect.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Not moving 50+% of your speed means a check is necessary to stay flying. If you're not flying (remember, hovering is considered a type of flying in this instance), there's really only one other thing that can happen, which is the gravity wins (for the moment anyways).

That doesn't make sense in conjunction with the 'if you fail your check by 5 or more and are using wings then you fall' clause. What happens if you fail your check by 4 when using wings? Clearly, you don't fall. What does that leave? It makes more sense to say "A skill check is necessary to not move 50+% of your speed. If you fail the skill check you must move."


Ravingdork wrote:

The fly spell explicitly lets you fly up at half speed. No check is required in this case. Your GM messed up.

Fly Spell: [The subject of the spell] can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.

It doesn't say explicitly you can do that without making a Fly check. It says 'maneuverability is good' which implies getting +4 on the DC 20 skill check needed to fly up at a greater than 45 degree angle.

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Matthew Downie wrote:
ryric wrote:
PRD, Fly skill wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8
Your good maneuverability from the fly spell doesn't help your checks.
Very few people think that's RAI. Why would they mention good maneuverability if it didn't do anything?

I agree it's iffy. I considered the reference to be a copy/paste error from 3.5e where there was no Fly skill. But I admit I have only shaky ground to base that on.


A search of the rules forums tells me most of these issues have been debated and FAQed for the last five or six years without any official clarification.


I read it as if you don't make a check and don't move more than half your speed you don't remain flying at the end of your turn. Not flying while up in the air would lead to falling.

Quote:
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.

The penalties for failure on a fly check while using a fly spell seem to be not doing the action and not continuing to fly at the end of the turn if not moving half speed.

The part about failure with wings is for any check failed by five or more.

Quote:
If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage (see Environment).

So if you move more than half your speed and try a tricky maneuver requiring a check you can still fall if using wings but not if flying otherwise.


So what happens if you fail your check by 4 while using wings?


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Barathos wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?
People who want superhero characters should just play Mutants and Masterminds.

Yes, I certainly wouldn't want a warrior with a magic hammer, a guy who gets superstrong when mad, a genius archer, an acrobatic superspy, or a guy in magic armor in MY Pathfinder game.


Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?
People who want superhero characters should just play Mutants and Masterminds.
Yes, I certainly wouldn't want a warrior with a magic hammer, a guy who gets superstrong when mad, a genius archer, an acrobatic superspy, or a guy in magic armor in MY Pathfinder game.

If you would read my other comment, along with the other snide commenters, you would see I was merely recommending a system that handles that particular thing much better than Pathfinder, not a "lol your fun is bad fun lel".

Also, Hawkeye a genius? Kek.


Matthew Downie wrote:
So what happens if you fail your check by 4 while using wings?

You don't succeed at the maneuver you were attempting (hovering, spending movement to turn, flying up) or the specific rules for the situation apply (take damage, collision, avoid falling). If you don't move half your speed in that round you are no longer flying at the end of your round.

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Matthew Downie wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Not moving 50+% of your speed means a check is necessary to stay flying. If you're not flying (remember, hovering is considered a type of flying in this instance), there's really only one other thing that can happen, which is the gravity wins (for the moment anyways).
That doesn't make sense in conjunction with the 'if you fail your check by 5 or more and are using wings then you fall' clause. What happens if you fail your check by 4 when using wings? Clearly, you don't fall. What does that leave? It makes more sense to say "A skill check is necessary to not move 50+% of your speed. If you fail the skill check you must move."

For most manuvers you just fail. For traveling at under half speed - you'd fall.

You're going by a logical fallacy. That because it spells out that you would fall in one specific situation - that you can't fall in any other specific situation.


Where do you end up if you 'fail' to make a maneuver?


You know, Fly is a great skill for your Headband of Vast Intellect.

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Matthew Downie wrote:
Where do you end up if you 'fail' to make a maneuver?

In most cases - you would simply not do the manuever you failed at. Moving at half speed in the exception, as trying to do so without successfully passing the manuver inherently causes one to fall. After all - nothing in the rules says that turning quicking without perfect manuverability/passing a check makes you fall.

Frankly - anything which would inherently stop your movement would cause you to fall. For example - I suppose that if one had the Hover feat, grappling in mid-air with someone who didn't have Hover would be highly beneficial, as during your next turn you could simply let go - allowing them to fall to the ground and take falling damage.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
In most cases - you would simply not do the manuever you failed at.

But if you don't do what you were trying to do, you have to do something else instead - such as hover, fall, or fly in a straight line against your will. My take is that if you fail in any maneuver, including hover, you have to fly in a straight line unless the rules say you are forced you to fall.

Scarab Sages

Derklord wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
If you don't fall or descend in some way, then why even require a check to hover? Pass the check = you hover; don't pass the check = you also hover? Seems like a common sense conclusion that those two checks apply equally to winged/wingless flight.

The fly skill is designed for winged flight. The rules explicitly state a negative result for a failed check only for winged flight.

I strongly disagree with your common sense conclusion - levitation is normaly the very first thing a character new to magical flight can do in pretty much any fantasy setting, like monks hovering while meditating in a lotus seat position.
Also, the Fly spell states "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking (...)" - which would make hovering akin to standing.
Winged flight is aerodynamic flight - that's what birds and airplanes do. Magical flight would be aerostatic flight, that's what balloons and zeppelins do.

Basically, with magical flight, you are weightless. You can't fall because the spell cancels out the gravity!

Avh wrote:
If you fail the Hover check (or the less than half your speed check), you MUST move at least half your speed.

No, not per the rules. The rules say that for winged flight, on a failed check you fall; on magical flight, there is no negative effect in the rules, therefore none exist.

Senko wrote:
Wait it's harder to float in one spot than to move?
Are you serious? Hovering (with winged flight) is way harder! If anything, the DC for hovering should be much harder - for instance, there are only very few kinds of birds capable of hovering (the most known is the hummingbird which is named after the noises it's very uncommon kind of flight produces). There are basically two kinds of hovering, the extremly rapid wing movement of bees, hummingbirds etc. (which also allows flying sideways and backwards) and an highly energy consuming kind a flight some predatory birds can do, where the animal makes swift powerful...

I was talking in terms if magical flight not winged when I expressed that. Winged flight hovering would be hard, magical I'd really think moving is harder than hovering.

Scarab Sages

Derklord wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
If you don't fall or descend in some way, then why even require a check to hover? Pass the check = you hover; don't pass the check = you also hover? Seems like a common sense conclusion that those two checks apply equally to winged/wingless flight.

The fly skill is designed for winged flight. The rules explicitly state a negative result for a failed check only for winged flight.

I strongly disagree with your common sense conclusion - levitation is normaly the very first thing a character new to magical flight can do in pretty much any fantasy setting, like monks hovering while meditating in a lotus seat position.
Also, the Fly spell states "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking (...)" - which would make hovering akin to standing.
Winged flight is aerodynamic flight - that's what birds and airplanes do. Magical flight would be aerostatic flight, that's what balloons and zeppelins do.

Basically, with magical flight, you are weightless. You can't fall because the spell cancels out the gravity!

Avh wrote:
If you fail the Hover check (or the less than half your speed check), you MUST move at least half your speed.

No, not per the rules. The rules say that for winged flight, on a failed check you fall; on magical flight, there is no negative effect in the rules, therefore none exist.

Senko wrote:
Wait it's harder to float in one spot than to move?
Are you serious? Hovering (with winged flight) is way harder! If anything, the DC for hovering should be much harder - for instance, there are only very few kinds of birds capable of hovering (the most known is the hummingbird which is named after the noises it's very uncommon kind of flight produces). There are basically two kinds of hovering, the extremly rapid wing movement of bees, hummingbirds etc. (which also allows flying sideways and backwards) and an highly energy consuming kind a flight some predatory birds can do, where the animal makes swift powerful...

I was talking in terms of magical flight not winged when I expressed that. Winged flight hovering would be hard, magical I'd really think moving is harder than hovering.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
In most cases - you would simply not do the manuever you failed at.
But if you don't do what you were trying to do, you have to do something else instead - such as hover, fall, or fly in a straight line against your will. My take is that if you fail in any maneuver, including hover, you have to fly in a straight line unless the rules say you are forced you to fall.

It really should specify instead of leaving it undefined.

You can turn 45 degrees without a check so if you are trying to turn 90 or 180 and fail I'd probably go with 45 instead of straight as you can't turn enough.

I think hovering should be defined as a move action, I would expect it to be so for winged creatures.


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Senko wrote:
Winged flight hovering would be hard, magical I'd really think moving is harder than hovering.

Same DCs for both winged and non-winged. No check for moving forward or 45 degree turns. DC 15 for hovering.

Hovering is harder.


Voadam wrote:
I think hovering should be defined as a move action, I would expect it to be so for winged creatures.

It is intended that flying creatures can make full-attacks, provided they can make the DC 20 skill check.

Liberty's Edge

Cerberus Seven wrote:


First off, just in case you're missing something off your check: if you can use an extract of fly, you should have at least a +7 to the check from that alone (1/2 caster level [minimum 7th because alchemical] plus 4 for good maneuverability).

Good maneuverability applies only if you have a natural fly speed. It is in alternative to the spell bonus.

PRD - Fly skill wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8.
Ckorik wrote:


Right - +7 fly skill

You can take 10 on this check - so if you don't put any points into the skill at all you have a +17 unless you are trying something really tricky or there is a hurricane.

You should always be able to hover - you should always be able to move at a 45 degree angle (i.e. half speed up - note the 45 degree angle is a full speed move but you only move 1/2 the distance - it's 1/2 forward and 1/2 up)

If you put a *single* point into the fly skill you get a +4 (3 for class skill) to the check.

So lets assume you really dumped dex and it's a 4. That's a -3 on the check - so a 15 with take 10. That still lets you hover and move 1/2 speed without making a fly check. Is your Dex a 1?

Not when he is trying to flee the BEEG in the middle of combat.

PRD wrote:
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.

Liberty's Edge

Undone wrote:

Can I just point out something.

Quote:
Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:
Which is +4 for "Fly" the spell so at 5th level it is impossible to fall without a -2 or -3 dexterity modifier when added to the half caster level bonus. With a good dex you can eventually reach auto success rates.

You are missing a key word:

PRD wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8.

Where have you found that citation?

Edit: I see, D20PSRD, It is one of the points where they try to gather all the rules in a location he rules and get them wrong.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Undone wrote:

Can I just point out something.

Quote:
Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:
Which is +4 for "Fly" the spell so at 5th level it is impossible to fall without a -2 or -3 dexterity modifier when added to the half caster level bonus. With a good dex you can eventually reach auto success rates.

You are missing a key word:

PRD wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8.

Where have you found that citation?

fly skill in the prd under the special section at the bottom.

Liberty's Edge

Voadam wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Undone wrote:

Can I just point out something.

Quote:
Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:
Which is +4 for "Fly" the spell so at 5th level it is impossible to fall without a -2 or -3 dexterity modifier when added to the half caster level bonus. With a good dex you can eventually reach auto success rates.

You are missing a key word:

PRD wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8.

Where have you found that citation?

fly skill in the prd under the special section at the bottom.

No, not there, the citation there is the one I made, with natural fly speed in it. the bonus isn't applied if you fly with a supernatural ability or a spell.

Check what you linked and you will see it.

Liberty's Edge

Cerberus Seven wrote:
Avh wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
You can take 10 on this check - so if you don't put any points into the skill at all you have a +17 unless you are trying something really tricky or there is a hurricane.

If what he was saying about there being hostile forces nearby was true, that should definitely count as 'immediate danger/distracted'. Ergo, not in combat he wouldn't be able take 10 in that particular situation. Otherwise though, yeah that'd work.

Derklord wrote:
I don't think you can ever fall using magical flight. Failing a fly check (by 5 or more) only has an effect if you use wings to fly. RAW you need to make checks for moving less then half your speed or hovering, but the result has absolutly no effect whatsoever.
If you don't fall or descend in some way, then why even require a check to hover? Pass the check = you hover; don't pass the check = you also hover? Seems like a common sense conclusion that those two checks apply equally to winged/wingless flight.
If you fail the Hover check (or the less than half your speed check), you MUST move at least half your speed.

Yeeeaaah, I don't think that's right. Let's look at the skill again:

"Fly wrote:
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.

So, in the scenario we're in, the alchemist or wizard or whatever elects to not move 50+% of their flight speed in a turn. That means a check is needed to remain flying. What's it called when you're in mid-air and not flying because of, among other things, a failed skill check? Yep, falling.

Then there's the obvious scenario of, "I just used a full-rounds worth of actions and can't take a move action". It's a very obvious way for someone to gain an extra move action every turn, maybe even one that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity since it's FORCED movement due to a failed check. I can't see anyone in their right mind arguing...

It is a bit more complicated than that. There are 2 different effects:

PRD - fly skill wrote:
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.

and

PRD - fly skill wrote:
If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage (see Environment).

So a creature not flying with wings can't remain flying at the end of his turn if he fail a check, but don't plummet to the ground.

What is left? He is forced to land but don't take falling damage and so don't drop prone.
The same would happen to someone flying with wing and falling by 1-4.

Liberty's Edge

Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
ryric wrote:
PRD, Fly skill wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8
Your good maneuverability from the fly spell doesn't help your checks.
Very few people think that's RAI. Why would they mention good maneuverability if it didn't do anything?
Sometimes people can't read, so they will think that even though an ability gives you something, there is some reason you don't actually get it.

Or, more probably, people know that was the text of the fly spell before Pathfinder and the advent of the fly skill and realize that it is a leftover of the 3.x version, but that it has no effect in game.

RAW and RAI is that you now use the rules of the fly skill. The fly spell don't say that you get a bonus for the maneuverability, only that you have it. And it give a bonus to your checks, but in a diffferent way.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
ryric wrote:
PRD, Fly skill wrote:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8
Your good maneuverability from the fly spell doesn't help your checks.
Very few people think that's RAI. Why would they mention good maneuverability if it didn't do anything?
Sometimes people can't read, so they will think that even though an ability gives you something, there is some reason you don't actually get it.

Or, more probably, people know that was the text of the fly spell before Pathfinder and the advent of the fly skill and realize that it is a leftover of the 3.x version, but that it has no effect in game.

RAW and RAI is that you now use the rules of the fly skill. The fly spell don't say that you get a bonus for the maneuverability, only that you have it. And it give a bonus to your checks, but in a diffferent way.

You really could just pretend that words mean what they say they mean.

It's not hard. There is no actual rules debate here.


Diego Rossi wrote:

No, not there, the citation there is the one I made, with natural fly speed in it. the bonus isn't applied if you fly with a supernatural ability or a spell.
Check what you linked and you will see it.

Rob McCreary wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

Rob - regarding the ghost on page 43 - should they have an additional +8 on the flight skill for having (perfect) flight?

I'm unsure if the ghosts flight ability would be considered natural - based on the stat block it's not - but I was wondering if you would comment on that.

Her Fly skill does include the +8 bonus for her maneuverability, but it also includes the -5 armor check penalty for her armor.

I quote a Dev here for one reason - the ghost template doesn't give a 'natural' fly speed - it just gives fly (perfect).

Yet the devs add the bonus into the creatures stat blocks.

Apparently when a maneuverability rating is listed it is for a 'natural' fly speed.

At least that's how the Dev's do it.


Ckorik wrote:
At least that's how the Dev's do it.

I'm just shocked that when devs use words like, "this ability gives you x", you actually get x.

Who knew that words mean what they do?


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"Natural" has nothing to do with natural things in the real world. A natural fly speed is a fly speed that is an innate part of a creature and cannot be removed, dispelled, or otherwise taken away (without an anti-magic field, because some flight is SU). A ghost totally has a natural fly speed. A creature that casts overland flight/fly does not. A creature with an item that casts fly/overland flight does not. A creature with continuous fly does not.


Okay,

So fail a fly check for going straight up, fall at feet of bad guy...

Seems like the mechanic we really needed here was attack of opportunity, because it sounds like he started in a space next to the bad guy.

Just because you're leaving a threatened space going up doesn't mean you aren't leaving a threatened space.

Ya?

(PS Magical flight is awesome.)

(PS, I ignore fly checks unless the flier has taken damage or etc., that's because "it's not fun that for some reason you can fly but you are randomly bad at it").

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