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A good tank idea:
Dex based Kensai with Bodyguard and Gloves of Arcane Striking.
You can match the AC of any monk or fighter, self buff, and get an obscene number of AoO's for the Bodyguard feat.
Most opponents cannot simply ignore you in favor of attacking your teammates - you are preventing those attacks from being effective.
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For going raw tankiness - I like inquisitors. Other classes can be harder to kill - but an inquistor can generally focus on it more than pure martials. Plus can get his intimidate score into the stratosphere pretty easily, so he can use Antagonize multiple times on the same opponent. Not to mention spellcasting and skills.
A bard is a good choice as well. Again - he can focus his resources on defense (not to mention case mirror image etc). My PFS bard always has the highest AC in the party. Is his damage great? No. But that's not his job. Being a buffer and a speed bump is. Plus - it's funny in PFS with new GMs all the time. Every time I spend my 1st round's standard action starting Inspire Courage, and my 2nd walking straight at the BBEG, the GM gets this glint in his eye. He thinks I'm being a stupid bard... until he misses me for the third time in a row. :P (I've had to explain where his AC came from a couple times.)
Plus can get his intimidate score into the stratosphere pretty easily, so he can use Antagonize multiple times on the same opponent.
Antagonize only works once on any given opponent.
Once you have targeted a creature with this ability, you cannot target it again for 1 day.
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Plus can get his intimidate score into the stratosphere pretty easily, so he can use Antagonize multiple times on the same opponent.Antagonize only works once on any given opponent.
Once you have targeted a creature with this ability, you cannot target it again for 1 day.
Oops - I knew there was a reason I'd never tried it more than once per opponent. Been awhile since I've used it.
Well - the point still remains to some degree. You can both antagonize and use intimidate to apply shaken to the same opponent.
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I'm having a hard time choosing between inquisitor and war priest, especially because I know that the inquisitor might have more out-of-combat abilities. I was thinking of a Erastil following Warpriest, with community and law/good blessings.
I'm not too sure what to do with an inquisitor, but I want to look into it, because it's a very thematic character, with some great art.
EDIT: After briefly checking out the inquisitor, I'm not a real fan. They don't get the kinds of skills I thought it would, and they don't have the same armor or weapons available to war priests.
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I'm having a hard time choosing between inquisitor and war priest, especially because I know that the inquisitor might have more out-of-combat abilities. I was thinking of a Erastil following Warpriest, with community and law/good blessings.
I'm not too sure what to do with an inquisitor, but I want to look into it, because it's a very thematic character, with some great art.EDIT: After briefly checking out the inquisitor, I'm not a real fan. They don't get the kinds of skills I thought it would, and they don't have the same armor or weapons available to war priests.
I love inquisitor but it is a fail as a tank. The best tanks are... In rough order cleric, paladin, warpriest, well made oracle, invernable rager barb. Heavy armor with a big shield is nearly a must at low levels and then you need spells or healing to stay relevant. Paladin, cleric, warpriest have all that and more is why they stay top tier. The rager is t a great tank but it does make up for a relative lack in martial area by bein the best anti-caster there is while being very effective in martial battle,plus of course the DR.
Warpriest is a good choice if you want to go that route. Can offer assist on that if u want it.
Actually, i would love assistance. My main character is a cavalier, so I know quite a bit about making a heavier character, but tanking was never my focus. I would love some advice on my blessings. I was thinking either good/law, and community, considering my friend is a very skill heavy bard. what do you think?
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What kind of tank do you want to be? Here are three options:
* Heavily armored and shielded, solid defenses. You can weather most any attack. You are a rock against which incoming waves break. Strong defense, moderate offense. E.g. Dwarven Shield Specialist Paladin or Fighter.
* Mobile with reach. Not as personally tough, but much better at protecting allies and controlling the battle field. Best versus multiple foes, especially for players who like tactical play. Moderate defense, strong offense. E.g. Reach Cleric or Reach Oradin.
* Very mobile and nigh on impossible to catch or hurt. Strong defense, moderate offense. Great at shutting down a single foe. E.g. Tetori monk grappler.
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I love inquisitor but it is a fail as a tank...Heavy armor with a big shield is nearly a must at low levels and then you need spells or healing to stay relevant.
I agree with heavy armor/shield for lower levels. In what way does that disqualify the inquisitor? How hard is it to burn a feat on heavy armor at level 1? (The way a good chunk of clerics, inquisitors, and druids do.) Though they might wait until level 3 to take the feat, and just stick with four mirror armor until they can afford full plate anyway.
20pt buy Tanky Inquisitor: Level 1 Dwarf Inquisitor (make sure to take the Heresy Inquisition to get Wisdom instead of Charisma to Bluff/Intimidate)
Str:16
Dex:12
Con:16
Int:12
Wis:16
Cha:5
AC: 19 (Four Mirror armor/Heavy shield/dex mod)
HP:11
Saves: Will=5 Fort=5 Reflex=1 with an extra +3 vs spells/poison
Pretty beefy for level 1 - and he'll keep up well if you take heavy armor at either 1 or 3. (I'd suggest Antagonize at 1 to be more useful at range than chucking a javilin.)
Are there characters who are harder to kill? Yes. But most who are too much harder to kill aren't very useful. The inquisitor has spellcasting, skills, and some social abilities. Plus Intimidate out the wazoo to make Antagonize work.
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What kind of tank do you want to be? Here are three options:
* Heavily armored and shielded, solid defenses. You can weather most any attack. You are a rock against which incoming waves break. Strong defense, moderate offense. E.g. Dwarven Shield Specialist Paladin or Fighter.
* Mobile with reach. Not as personally tough, but much better at protecting allies and controlling the battle field. Best versus multiple foes, especially for players who like tactical play. Moderate defense, strong offense. E.g. Reach Cleric or Reach Oradin.
* Very mobile and nigh on impossible to catch or hurt. Strong defense, moderate offense. Great at shutting down a single foe. E.g. Tetori monk grappler.
I would have to say I wanna be the first one. My friend is playing a prankster bard who's tricksy and childish, while I'm the rather gruff, but surprisingly warm half orc that has sworn to protect his little friend at all costs. It's an oldy, but a goody, and I think the dynamic will be fun to play.
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I love inquisitor but it is a fail as a tank...Heavy armor with a big shield is nearly a must at low levels and then you need spells or healing to stay relevant.I agree with heavy armor/shield for lower levels. In what way does that disqualify the inquisitor? How hard is it to burn a feat on heavy armor at level 1? (The way a good chunk of clerics, inquisitors, and druids do.) Though they might wait until level 3 to take the feat, and just stick with four mirror armor until they can afford full plate anyway.
20pt buy Tanky Inquisitor: Level 1 Dwarf Inquisitor (make sure to take the Heresy Inquisition to get Wisdom instead of Charisma to Bluff/Intimidate)
Str:16
Dex:12
Con:16
Int:12
Wis:16
Cha:5AC: 19 (Four Mirror armor/Heavy shield/dex mod)
HP:11
Saves: Will=5 Fort=5 Reflex=1 with an extra +3 vs spells/poisonPretty beefy for level 1 - and he'll keep up well if you take heavy armor at either 1 or 3. (I'd suggest Antagonize at 1 to be more useful at range than chucking a javilin.)
Are there characters who are harder to kill? Yes. But most who are too much harder to kill aren't very useful. The inquisitor has spellcasting, skills, and some social abilities. Plus Intimidate out the wazoo to make Antagonize work.
Wow, this is really good, and has great synergy with my prankster bard friend. I'm going to go double check with the inquisitor again. She deserves a second look.
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To those tht ask why not inquisitor?
An inquisitor is a fail because it lacks key features/options that others have or have as good. None of these are deal breakers but when added up collectively make a less than top tier choice.
1) no heavy armor prof.
2) no tower shield prof
3) upon gaining heavy armor prof stalwart class feature becomes useless.
4) inferior spells and spell quantity when compared to even paladin or warpriest as it relates to being a tank. The difference is t huge but it is there and when compared to a cleric or oracle its horrible.
5) judgement bonuses to AC don't come into play until at least the second power at level 8 and even then. As such a warpriest blessing or a clerics domain bonuses usually overshadow judgement.
6) inquisitor doesn't have swift heals of self or any mass heal of party on its own.
7) antangonize is not unique to in its quality to inquisitor as a charisma based cleric could do it almost as good.
8) cunning initiative is great but also overshadowed by a cleric who wants to do the same thing. And a tank needs to be high on the order.Other misc reasons but that's enough to bury the poor inquisitor.
Yeah, I've been reading up, but it's not as good as warpriest. I'll be sticking to my initial character concept. Thanks guys.
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Play what you want! Sounds like a good plan :-)
@OP: Some time in the future, not this character, I encourage you to play a character with reach and learn reach tactics. This so you learn that portion of how to be highly effective in combat.
P.s. I hope we've all expanded our concept of what is a 'tanky' character. Heavy armor and a shield is only one way to fill that role. People provided lots of good examples of unusual 'tanks'. I especially liked the Bard example.
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Play what you want! Sounds like a good plan :-)
@OP: Some time in the future, not this character, I encourage you to play a character with reach and learn reach tactics. This so you learn that portion of how to be highly effective in combat.
P.s. I hope we've all expanded our concept of what is a 'tanky' character. Heavy armor and a shield is only one way to fill that role. People provided lots of good examples of unusual 'tanks'. I especially liked the Bard example.
Actually, my other character is mounted, but when he gets off his mount, he has multiple reach weapons at his disposal, and when he is on his mount, he racks up kills like a DOTA hero with a divine rapier.
Solves the previous points
Human lvl 1 unbreakable fighter lvl 19 invulnerable rager 20 pt
Str 15+1@4,12,16
Dex 14
Con 17 +1@8
Cha 10
Int 10
Wis 11
Feats
1 h racial heritage halfling
1 f endurance
1 f diehard
1 g power attack
3 cautious fighter
RP superstitious
5 stalwart
RP reckless abandon
7 improved unarmed strike
RP guarded life
9 dodge
RP beast totem lesser
11 improved stalwart
RP beast totem
13 combat style
RP beast totem greater
15 crane style
RP increased dr
17 heroic defiance
RP increased dr
19 raging vitality
RP increased dr
Favored class 1/3 bonus to superstitious total bonus +6
Druid/Stalwart DefenderHow does druid work for tanking?
How?
By surrounding the battlefield with adequate to the fight summoned beast who can take damage without being healed.And then turning into one adequate to the fight beast itself if needed.
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How does body guard, toughness, and combat reflexes convince people to attack you?
If the enemy has any Intel on your group he will know to target people not in your sphere of Sid another. And if they have any AoE abilities your still gonna get pounded by it.
Magda Luckbender is right...the OP should pick whats fun for him and we hope we showed AC isn't the end all to front lining.
Personally im impressed by the bloodrager class as tanks. I have a build with a primalist spelleater arcane bloodrager that is downright mean on the front lines. Tons of fast healing(4-10) instead of DR and the ability to gain 50% miss chance from displacement. Playing it is like that old song: " i get knocked down but i get up again....your never gonna keep me down." At late levels outside PFS you can remove the level 12 bloodline ability to gain superstition and witch hunter rage powers to help be one of the most aggressive anti caster frontliners. Or you can get come and get me and 1 other rage power.
I think in Pathfinder, being a great tank is also being a great healer. People always want to go after the healer. So, I would recommend a gnome life oracle with maxed hp and armor. Note that you don't really need proficiency in armor if you don't plan to attack in it.
You will basically spend your rounds doing nothing but healing or buffing. If none of that is needed, just attack defensively. You weren't planning on hitting anyone anyway, so the +2 AC is a bonus. The enemy will be forced to consider taking you out to do any lasting damage to your teammates.
Somebody pointed out recently that if you're not proficient in wearing your armor you might take the ACP to other stuff like initiative rolls. I'm not 100% sure if that's the correct ruling, but if so then wearing full plate you're not proficient with might be a bad idea.
Having a great initiative can be important for "tanky" PCs anyhow, especially since at some point many DMs decide that the monsters are absolutely going to get a surprise round no matter what. Getting surprised (possibly regardless of your Perception check) and then losing initiative can be pretty dangerous.
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Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dex- and Str-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for non-proficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.
The thing about life oracle tank is that healing is reactive anyway. Going last in initiative just means that he is more likely to have someone to heal. Sure, going last in initiative isn't "good", but it's less bad for this build than for almost any other build. The build likely won't have a good dexterity anyway, because full plate has a +1 dex modifier allowance.
Being flatfooted in full plate is about the same as being not flatfooted. I guess you are more susceptible to sneak attack, but that's about it.
I'm surprised no one mentioned the Oradin (Oracle/paladin multi class) as a potential build for tanking. Looks like the OP has made their decision and hasn't been back for awhile too bad.
Warpriest lost BAB is also offset by the Sacred Weapon Bonus at those levels. That bonus is pretty time limited, but it should be there for all of the important fights. Especially in PFS.
Unfortunately, the Sacred Weapon Bonus becomes less of a factor once everyone can afford +4 weapons, but until then it should keep warpriest damage competitive with a full BAB class. Even after the +4 breakpoint, the warpriest will be able to modify his weapon in ways to work with the +5 enhancement cap, such as making his weapon keen.
Don't I count? :(
*pats poor link on the head*
Not having a build to actually compare/realize the intent, those classes could be meshed up to do a few things... Sorry I didn't realize off the bat that was your intent. It seemed the OP gravitated to the builds that were explained as opposed to looked into/figured out what they were regardless.
But don't worry, someone still cares about you little oradin!
*points to the "I <3 Oradins" bumper sticker on my wagon*
Ummm... I sat down to try to build the Huge earth elemental Fighter/Druid/Stalwart Defender in this thread... just wondering where Huge elemental form came from, given that 8th level druids just get medium elemental forms?
@Sissyl - I haven't gone through the effort of finding and studying the build in question, but there's a "Shaping Focus" feat which increases your effective Druid level for wildshape by +4 (up to your character level). I had a lot of fun in the past playing a Druid with a level of Monk, but with that feat available I might consider such a PC with more levels of Monk (but probably no summoning)
I'm partial to a Dwarf Stonelord with reach build for a pure tank. Being able to ignore crit damage is huge. Especially for PFS when you can't have some of the more exotic builds people throw up on the advise board.