DR isn't supposed to make an opponent invulnerable: it is supposed to mitigate a percentage of damage in order to force the party to consume more resources in order to defeat said opponent.
They reduced the numbers from 3.0 deliberately because it was causing issues and people were complaining. Some encounters became almost certain TPKs if you didn't happen to have a good enough magic weapon (2e was the same in this regard).
By forcing very high DR values you just enforce high enhancement magic weapons on all martials, rather than create any interesting interaction. You just reduce the number of viable options.
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The problem is that "turning tail and running" is practically impossible at most levels.
At low levels, the monsters move just as fast as you (or faster), and can Charge and attack once while you're running away (if you Withdraw), or get an Attack of Opportunity vs your Flatfooted AC if you try to Run whittling you down as you futilely try to flee.
At mid-high levels, everything moves faster than you, flies, and/or has Greater Teleport at will.
So until really high levels when your caster can whip out a Teleport that can take the whole party along, running away isn't an option. And by that level, you can overcome DR anyway.
DR isn't supposed to make an opponent invulnerable: it is supposed to mitigate a percentage of damage in order to force the party to consume more resources in order to defeat said opponent.
They reduced the numbers from 3.0 deliberately because it was causing issues and people were complaining. Some encounters became almost certain TPKs if you didn't happen to have a good enough magic weapon (2e was the same in this regard).
By forcing very high DR values you just enforce high enhancement magic weapons on all martials, rather than create any interesting interaction. You just reduce the number of viable options.
Yes I know what DR is intended for. The problem is that it really doesn't make the party consume more resources. With the wealth of options availible for martial characters, including but not limited to vital strike (and its entire tree), power attack, multiple ways to boost damage (weapon training, favored enemy, weapon specialization, studied target, etc, there might as well not be DR at all.
But perhaps I'm just of the old school mindset: I frankly don't see the problem with an ill-prepared party having to turn tail and run because they lack the proper weapons to take down a monster.
Thanks for your response!
No worries! Yeah, the main issue here is that having higher DR still doesn't consume more party resources, it just forces your melee to have +x weapons on them. It basically throws the magic weapon section out the door as your players can no longer afford to invest in altenative magic weapon properties.
Have you considered just going back to 2e? It does that kind of 'oh **** we have to run' mentality a lot better than pathfinder, which isn't really built to accomodate that (there's a general expectation encounters can be defeated that is built in to the ruleset and running is often impractical or impossible).
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Shaving 5-15 points off each hit isn't useless.
DR can really f%~& up characters who aren't primary combatants, or use multiple small hits (such as TWFers, or archers without Clustered Shots).
Your primary combatants shouldn't be shut down by every Outsider out there.
Investing in Vital Strike to mitigate DR somewhat is enough of a punishment already, since 90% of the time it's worthless.
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DR is a grave threat where it counts: To low level characters.
A Werewolf eating a quarter of your main fighter's damage is scary at level 5. It's not at level 10, nor should it be,
If you want to increase the threat of DR without major changes though, I'd suggest a few options:
1.) Increase all DR by 1 step (5 becomes 10, 10 becomes 15, and 15 becomes 20).
Plus either:
2.) Give all creatures with DR Fast Healing or Regeneration in addition to that. So, your Werewolf now eats 10 damage off every hit, and heals an additional 5-10 every round, making him highly resistant, if not immune to low level non-Silver attacks, but less resistant to high level character's damage output (merely healing that 5-10, unless the weapon is actually silver).
Or:
3.) Make monster DR more varied and weird. DR is mostly standardized in PF, with a few exceptions. Nosferatu DR of Wood and Piercing, for example, or Grendel's DR/Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack.
DR is actually pretty effective when it works. The problem is that it is often pretty easy to overcome. If you house rule away the ability to beat DR using just enhancement bonuses and perhaps make special materials a little harder to come by that could go a long way towards making DR stand out in your games.
If you want the monsters to be very tough to kill without the right weapon perhaps regeneration would work well.
@TriOmegaZero - What sort of attacks did the eidolon use which couldn't cause bludgeoning damage?
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I've houseruled the 3.5 version of DR back into my game, so the characters have to look for/buy weapons made of special materials (or get some weapon blanches, although they don't cover all possibilities as far as I know). Just having X number of enhancement bonuses on a weapon will not guarantee complete DR penetration.
However, I do like the "mithril = Silver" rule, so that's still in the game.
I've also nerfed the Paladin's smite evil ability so that it doesn't penetrate absolutely everything. It's still good against DR x/Good, Lawful, and Magic, because the Paladin is a representative of LG and his attack is a magical ability. But the Paladin is not a representative of Slashing, Piercing, or Bludgeoning (or Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack, etc.), nor of Silver, Cold Iron, or Adamantium (or Wood, etc.), nor of Epic or Vorpal, and particularly not Chaos/Chaotic.
I like DR because it makes the Kali eidolon with a bunch of arms have fits.
Outside society play, a level 3 Eidolon might look something like this:
Biped
Feats: EWP: Wakizashi, Multiweapon Fighting
Evolutions: Lims (arms)*3 (+limbs, limbs, claws) (assumes 1*Extra Evolution)
Str 17, Dex 13, etc.
Full attack: Wakizashi +4/1d6+3/18-20, Wakizashi +4/+4/+4/4/+4/+4/+4, 1d6+1/18-20. That's 8 attacks. And this is just level 3, off the top of my head
It was the lack of an amulet of mighty fists or greater magic fang that dropped his total damage.
They are to the point where they are facing DR/15 and the summoner can't even be bothered to throw one greater magic fang to cover stuff like that? Heck, they didn't even bother to go for the magic attacks evo (1 point evo mind you) that lets them get through DR/magic, and eventually get their attacks treated as your alignment?
I guess they deserve to be shut down then. Well, probably not shut down, but drawing the fight out of the first turn. I mean, along with using SLA's to grab arcane strike (that sweet, sweet 1-5 on 11 attacks), I know of 3 different ways to avoid that problem that each bring some other boost your combat performance to at least some extent, all without using the amulet.
EDIT- wait...11 attacks? Oh, this is a kali build. Never mind, summoners don't have greater magic weapon, so this remains a problem. Still, there are ways to avoid such problems.
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In retrospect, I do think that the PF rule that Magic Weapon Enhancement Bonuses overcome different DR's was a terrible idea, and I do agree that DR has become less and less purposeful since 3.0.
I can really only think of 2 cases where DR even really mattered when playing PF, and honestly, both where not even DR but Hardness on a creature, and both nearly lead to TPK's as Adamantine was outside of our price range yet, and we lacked a true dedicated tank (he went defense so was useless).
I think I would like DR to range from 1-20 normally, and rarely 30 with a few things. But more importantly the +1-+5 Weapon Enhancements to matter again, and also increase the amount of DR that requires both a special metal and also a type of weapon Damage (Bludg., Piercing, or Slashing). Maybe ditch DR/Magic entirely?
Beckett, you can do that if you start introducing Magic-Immune/Spells level x.
Forcing weapon enhancements on melees, while not doing the same to spellcasters, is pretty bad. Spellcasters generally don't care about DR. Unless you start giving monsters more magic immunities to balance things out, all you are doing is making it harder for the non-casters.
==Aelryinth
@DM Beckett - How high was the hardness which gave your party problems?
@GM Tribute - That's a lot of attacks. The Golden Voyage of Sinbad clearly shows scimitars rather than wakizashi though.
@TriOmegaZero - If the Summoner didn't have Greater Magic Fang or any of the Evolution Surge spells it is tough to feel bad for him. It sounds like he's doing just fine anyhow.
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Beckett, you can do that if you start introducing Magic-Immune/Spells level x.
Forcing weapon enhancements on melees, while not doing the same to spellcasters, is pretty bad. Spellcasters generally don't care about DR. Unless you start giving monsters more magic immunities to balance things out, all you are doing is making it harder for the non-casters.
==Aelryinth
While I do not like how easy it is to bypass DR (from a GM's perspective), making it harder will tip balance of casters being versatile when they can bypass DR. And I think we all can agree the spell power > martial power after 10th level.
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DR is so worthless that it completely nerfs eidolons through the early levels.
DR is so worthless it stops TWF in its tracks.
DR is so worthless that specific feats have been developed to allow players to overcome it.
Hm, maybe it's not that worthless after all. Maybe it just seems that way compared to the highest damage melee fighting style in the entire game, and when compared to abilities designed to counter it.
What's the point buy of this game? Wealth level? Specialization/optimization of the party? These things can make quite a difference as to how much DR matters.
I agree that it's often a bit low, but DR isn't designed to nullify attacks. That's better solved by a combination of DR and regeneration. I generally give horror movie monsters with specific weaknesses that combo to better support that flavor (e.g., a greater werewolf might have DR 5/silver and regeneration 5 (silver or wolfsbane))--but only when it's thematically appropriate. You obviously can't go giving regen to every monster with DR and expect the players to enjoy that level of golfbagging.
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Beckett, you can do that if you start introducing Magic-Immune/Spells level x.
Forcing weapon enhancements on melees, while not doing the same to spellcasters, is pretty bad. Spellcasters generally don't care about DR. Unless you start giving monsters more magic immunities to balance things out, all you are doing is making it harder for the non-casters.
==Aelryinth
Plenty of monsters have immunities to particular types of magic, and a few have near-blanket immunity to spells. Wizards golf bag, too; they just keep their clubs in their heads instead of on their backs.
One of my first Pathfinder experiences was meeting a Rakshasa as a level 7 sword-and-shield-using Fighter. DR 15 Good & Piercing is not easy to overcome.
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@DM Beckett - How high was the hardness which gave your party problems?
Off the top of my head, one was 10 and the other 15. In one case, though, it was severely compounded by the fact that the creature had specific weaknesses, but Hardness applied even to those, and some issues with the Tech Guide's new rules involved.
Beckett, you can do that if you start introducing Magic-Immune/Spells level x.
Forcing weapon enhancements on melees, while not doing the same to spellcasters, is pretty bad. Spellcasters generally don't care about DR. Unless you start giving monsters more magic immunities to balance things out, all you are doing is making it harder for the non-casters.
==Aelryinth
I'm not sure I agree with that, as generally speaking, spellcasters have even more things to worry about from monsters than non-casters do, between energy resistance, SR, and the many ways through magic, items, racial abilities, etc. . . to be immune to spells. Also, what I'm more talking about is instead of having DR/ Magic, it returns to DR 5/+1, or DR 20/+4. (A +3 Flaming sword doesn't help, but a +4 sword does).
DR is so worthless that it completely nerfs eidolons through the early levels.
DR is so worthless it stops TWF in its tracks.
DR is so worthless that specific feats have been developed to allow players to overcome it.
Hm, maybe it's not that worthless after all. Maybe it just seems that way compared to the highest damage melee fighting style in the entire game, and when compared to abilities designed to counter it.
Not really. For Eidolons, and moreso with most Animal Companions, it really only applies a lot of times if they focus on going for multiple attacks that deal low damage over less attacks that are stronger. Not really sure that's a bad thing.
TWF not so much. It actually rewards them a bit more than others if they play smart and diversify, making them more likely to be able to overcome DR with at least one of their weapons, than the Sword and Board or Single Weapon types who it's generally all or nothing. They both take a hit if they don't have the right tool for the job, but the TWF has a better chance of having that tool in most cases, and also tend to take less of a hit if they opt to fight at less than there max, (so just using that one weapon that works, for example).
As title says, really.
DR numbers are so low as to be basically worthless. I really enjoyed the change in the way you bypass DR (having to use a silver weapon, holy weapon, slashing, etc.), but the DR itself (basically anywhere from 5-15) is so easily surpassed by melee characters that it doesn't really matter if you used the proper weapon or not, which IMO defeats the purpose.
So, has anyone experimented with using the higher DR numbers of 3.0 while using the bypass conditions of 3.5/PF?
Our game has actually gone the opposite route of late, keeping the numbers lower but making it harder to completely bypass DR.
DR is basically non-existent in PF. . . DR/- or just gtfo
You could give a monster DR 1Million/(Anything and everything) and PF rules says that +5 sword gets through no matter what. . .
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DR is basically non-existent in PF. . . DR/- or just gtfo
You could give a monster DR 1Million/(Anything and everything) and PF rules says that +5 sword gets through no matter what. . .
No it can't. +5 swords can only get through DR/magic, alignment-based, adamantine, cold iron, and silver.
It wouldn't be able to get through any other material-based DR (should one exist). +5 weapons won't get through DR/piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning (unless the base weapon was one of those, of course). DR/Epic also can't be overcome by a +5 weapon.
+5 weapons don't automatically overcome all forms of damage reduction. Just most of them.
DR is basically non-existent in PF. . . DR/- or just gtfo
You could give a monster DR 1Million/(Anything and everything) and PF rules says that +5 sword gets through no matter what. . .
No it can't. +5 swords can only get through DR/magic, alignment-based, adamantine, cold iron, and silver.
It wouldn't be able to get through any other material-based DR (should one exist). +5 weapons won't get through DR/piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning (unless the base weapon was one of those, of course). DR/Epic also can't be overcome by a +5 weapon.
+5 weapons don't automatically overcome all forms of damage reduction. Just most of them.
You're right, you need a +6 to get through Epic, and Piercing/slashing/bludgeoning still work.
You are also correct that if you were to house rule in a new kind of material (DR/ "Houserulium") then it wouldn't necessarily bypass it. . .
It just through basically every relevant DR currently in the game, and as long as you leave that rule alone changing anything else about DR won't have any measurable impact. DR 1000/silver is still effectively nothing.
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For all of you saying that DR is worthless, my samurai (Order of the Shield) in Jade Regent swears by his Resolute ability which acts much like DR 3/- if there is healing around. It just means he takes significantly less damage, even against big hitters like dragons and oni.
DR is basically non-existent in PF. . . DR/- or just gtfo
You could give a monster DR 1Million/(Anything and everything) and PF rules says that +5 sword gets through no matter what. . .
No it can't. +5 swords can only get through DR/magic, alignment-based, adamantine, cold iron, and silver.
It wouldn't be able to get through any other material-based DR (should one exist). +5 weapons won't get through DR/piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning (unless the base weapon was one of those, of course). DR/Epic also can't be overcome by a +5 weapon.
+5 weapons don't automatically overcome all forms of damage reduction. Just most of them.
You're right, you need a +6 to get through Epic, and Piercing/slashing/bludgeoning still work.
You are also correct that if you were to house rule in a new kind of material (DR/ "Houserulium") then it wouldn't necessarily bypass it. . .
It just through basically every relevant DR currently in the game, and as long as you leave that rule alone changing anything else about DR won't have any measurable impact. DR 1000/silver is still effectively nothing.
It's not really "Houserulium" considering there's already rules precedent. See the Nosferatu (DR 5/Wood and Piercing).
It's not really "Houserulium" considering there's already rules precedent. See the Nosferatu (DR 5/Wood and Piercing).
Other than Silver, Cold Iron, and Adamantine the rules don't have other metal DR types, so you would be house ruling in the DR for some kind of home-brewed monster.
And Wood is not a metal type DR?
Its also a single monster example out of hundreds?
And Wood is not a metal type DR?
Its also a single monster example out of hundreds?
The point is that it and monster like it, such as the Jabberwock (DR/Vorpal) and Grendel (DR/Unarmed Strikes or Natural Attacks) show clearly that while it may be "homebrew" in a specific case, the CONCEPT is not a wholesale fabrication; There are monsters in official Pathfinder products with nonstandard DR types.
Our game has actually gone the opposite route of late, keeping the numbers lower but making it harder to completely bypass DR.Would you mind elaborating on your game mechanics with DR?
I actually don't recall or have handy the exact details (it's largely implemented on the DM side), but I'll go looking.
I went way back to 1st edition...hardened gamers cut and ran from the iron golem that was only harmed by +3 weapons...they got it in the end, but their initial panic was very heart warming.
They were indeed safe from most 1st ed. critters with +2 weapons as they will hurt quite alot of my rank and file beasties...but not all of them...
Bwa! Ha! Ha!
I actually don't recall or have handy the exact details (it's largely implemented on the DM side), but I'll go looking.Our game has actually gone the opposite route of late, keeping the numbers lower but making it harder to completely bypass DR.Would you mind elaborating on your game mechanics with DR?
I have the following DR.
DR/magic (greater magic requires +3, high magic requires +5, epic requires +6)
DR/alignment (good, evil, chaotic, lawful)
DR/material (adamantine, cold iron, silver, etc)
DR/type (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing)
DR/-
A +5 club (for instance) doesn't penetrate anything other than high magic and lower. Not DR/evil, not DR/slashing.
And we don't use the nonsense "+6 total enhancement bonus" crap for DR/epic. If you don't have a +4 appropriate bane weapon, or a +6 actual enhancement bonus, you don't go through it.
A paladin's smite evil penetrates DR/good. Not all DR.
Mythic as well. Mythic abilities that allow you to 'ignore DR', allow you to 'penetrate epic DR'. Not holy or barbarian or such.
DR is useless?
Let's take DR 10/-.
Doesn't it follow that if that's inconsequential, you think that someone getting an additional +10 to damage on every attack is inconsequential? It's power attack for a fighter at level 12-ish with a two-handed weapon, without taking a to-hit penalty. It's that in reverse. What exactly are you looking for?
My take on this is, DR is not useless in general. My pet peeve with DR is that what really is useless is DR/magic. I mean, there are CR 20 creatures with DR 15/magic. What's that supposed to be good for?
I'm thinking of implementing a house rule that basically says "for each +1 enhancement bonus of the weapon (not counting bonuses from greater magic weapon), reduce the DR by 5 points." In this way, DR/magic can become meaningful again.