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I'm gonna try to make this as brief as possible. I have a history of long intro posts.
Playing in a game. One is super-new to PF. He already made a rogue in our last game, and boy-oh-boy did it suck. GM asked me to help him boost it up, I turned it into a scout-knife archetype combo, dipped fighter, helped pick his gear, now he's awesome (comparatively speaking).
New game coming up! I'm the new GM. Super-new-to-PF player decides on Barbarian. Good choice, no?
Just told me he changed his mind, wants to play a fighter, has "a better idea", and won't give me more info.
Okay, cool, play what you want, right?
Except there's gonna be a pally in the party, and if my previous experience is any indication, a pally can do everything a fighter can do, and more, and I'm worried he's gonna get outshined. I mean, a barbarian and a paladin fighting side by side can really compliment one another, but a fighter will just look like a paladin's sidekick in comparison, no?
He only has the CRB, and is very VERY (extremely!) hesitant to incorporate outside books, by the way. The other players are not the same. Even our second-newest player is the former GM's girlfriend, and he's a hardcore min-maxer, so she's gonna be coming ready to kill with a vengeance.
Do I shut up, let him learn his lesson, but probably look like a gimp in comparison to most of the rest of the party?
Do I point out that's just a bad idea, and look kind of like a dick 'cause I already told him how to make a rogue not suck? (He was really grateful for that by the way, but he wants to make his own character this time. I feel like a dad watching his son ride his bike for the first time without training wheels...and I know by his stance he's wobbling and probably gonna fall.)
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Well, I was going to say you can make some somewhat interesting Fighters (Unbreakable, Mutation Warrior, Lore Warden), but if he's going CRB only...I see him being a very sad panda.
Well, I was going to say you can make some somewhat interesting Fighters (Unbreakable, Mutation Warrior, Lore Warden), but if he's going CRB only...I see him being a very sad panda.
I know, right? I did link him to d20pfsrd, and I really, REALLY hope that's what inspired him to change classes...like he found an archetype he likes, or something, but if it's just "I want to be a hardened mercenary, not an angry guy" or something like that, I feel for him.
Suggest he try an archer, assuming the pally is a melee build? It's common enough to try to avoid stepping on toes, and you don't have to specify whose.
A well designed fighter is just fine as far as DPR. They are also excellent for either having a variety of combat modes that the feat poor Paladin and Barbarian can't match or going into combat maneuvers. Usually the complaint about fighters compared to the other martials is saves and skill points, not DPR.
If I were you I would let him make his character as he wants, but arrange to go over it with him after. Don't just remake it for him, but if you have some ideas of what would be better offer those specific ideas and explain why, then let him choose what he wants to do.
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Not much to say now without knowing more about what they are doing with the character. Archetypes do a lot for the class, but CRB only is rather... meh.
And hey, there is one thing the CRB fighter does better than Paladins, and that's kick babies. If you need someone to be more practical and less righteous, fighter is your guy.
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Thing is, when you watch your kid ride the bike that first time, you don't want them to fall - but you also don't want to reach out and hold them up before they really need it.
Time to let go.
Tell the player you support his choice to make his own character. Maybe tell him that since he's newer to the game than others, you're okay with him tinkering with the character a bit more than usual until he likes it. But he can only learn by doing it himself, so if that's what he wants to do, you really need to let him.
Then wait and see how he does. If he does reasonably okay, you won't have quashed him for no reason. If he's having fun, he's good enough. If he's not, you can offer the most minimal amount of advice possible to help him.
Another thought - There are a lot of way besides absolute damage output etc. to win spotlight time, by the way. Depending on the campaign you're planning to run, make sure you collect good PC backgrounds that connect to your story, then make sure you work this particular player's background into your campaign story a bit more than the others. If he gets plenty of spotlight time from the story elements, it won't matter as much if his combat effectiveness is below average for the group.
Fighters make excellent archers, as Ipslore points out. Though Paladins can be DISGUSTING with a bow, as long as your Pally is going the usual 2H or Sword/Board route, an archery specced Fighter would probably be quite good. It's the one fighting style they REALLY excel at, handily beating all comers in damage (besides the aforementioned "AHAHAHAHAHA EAT MY EVERYTHING THE FIGHTER HAS PLUS LEVEL DAMAGE, SUCKA!").
Though, pointing him toward a Swashbuckler or Slayer might be more to his liking as well, especially Slayer if he wants the "Hardened mercenary" flavor baked right in.
I don't think he will be outright out shined. I mean a fighter will never match the damage output of a ranger against their favored enemy, or a rogue with sequential sneak attacks, or a paladin against something evil ...
However, he will be consistently useful across the board. I will do damage to everything and land most if not all his hits with his amazing BAB and fighter only feats.
I mean sure he will take a back seat in certain fights when there is a specialized class in the party facing a specific enemy, but he will be by far the most consistent and useful damage dealer your party has.
*If he dives into fighter only feats.
**Fighters used to be bland in other editions, lacking flavor and fun factor that other more interesting classes had, but I find they really have their place in Pathfinder. They are by far the best suited at combat, period.
***I apologize for my biased post. Just don't get why people choose to rag on a class because of it's history of being bland.
The sad part is, they actually are NOT the best combat class.
I did a by-the-numbers analysis a while back, and at every level except 20th, the Fighter loses to the Barbarian on damage.
That's not counting the non damage related boosts the Barbarian has over him.
Likewise a Slayer. A few points of damage behind, perhaps, but far more versatile and flexible.
We already have a ranger archer. I should've pointed that out.
In addition to those guys and the paladin, there's a potential bard-or-skald being played by a player who doesn't traditionally make combat-effective people BUT she doesn't give a crap as long as she can contribute out-of-combat. There's a paragon-surge obsessed schrodinger's sorcerer, and a probably-going-to-be-a-scarred witch doctor.
Plus, this player, no matter the situation, inevitably just charges crap and stabs it. Even with me playing a wizard who NOTORIOUSLY throws a LOT of fireballs, he jumps into the middle of a group of enemies, right after I said "I will fireball the crap out of those guys". (Then fails his saves. Then says it's somehow my fault...)
I doubt that will change from a rogue with a fighter dip to a fighter.
And hey, there is one thing the CRB fighter does better than Paladins, and that's kick babies.
This sentence made my day. I will forever remember it.
Seriously, though, I don't think with 2+Int skill points he will have many opportunities to subtly act without being caught.
Let the guy play what he wants as long as he's having fun leave him be
Just because he's not playing a super character doesn't mean he can't be a useful party member
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That is the most natural-born Gendarme Cavalier I've ever laid eyes on.
You would be doing the world a disservice by not putting that boy on a horse.
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Important note ... not everybody objects to being 'outshined'. Some people just like playin' their dudes the way they want to play their dudes. If it turns out to be bugging him later, offer him an easy restat or replacement.
And anyway there is only one way to play this game wrong and that's to not have fun if he's enjoying playing his fighter then that's fine not everyone wants or needs a super min/max character to have fun if
Will everyone be just core? because corebarbarian are not impresives at all.
No, but he's not only new, English is not his first language, so he doesn't want to research all the stuff out there.
If d20pfsrd were available in Portuguese, this would not be an issue.
The other players are, in order of optimization-skill from greatest to least (IMO)
The paragon surge sorcerer. He's our former GM. He's using racial heritage to squeeze into getting his hand on that spell, just so he can get the human favored class bonus for sorcerers. He fully plans to abuse expanded arcana to get a floating spell known per day. He's aware of boon companion, and is a sylvan sorcerer. He's a man after my own heart, dangit, and I really look forward to the challenge he's bringing. (I warned all of them I'm a notoriously difficult GM per my previous players.)
The scarred witch dr. Also squeezing in with racial heritage. He usually makes extremely good characters, although weird choices mid combat...like having his shaman stab stuff instead of cast when he has a ton of spells left...but he is good enough that the previous GM is left shaking his head a lot.
The paladin. She has access to herolab and a bunch of books, and is moderately knowledgeable. She has made very solid characters in the past. Nothing game breaking, but definitely able to keep up with almost anyone.
The archer ranger. She's the sorcerer player's girlfriend, and he always helps her make characters, but due to her newness to the game, he keeps them simple, so they're solid but powerful. Archery is pretty dang easy to optimize, so she'll stand out a lot I think.
The skald/bard. She...bless her heart, she doesn't seem to care about fighting at all. She seems to absolutely LOVE being in the background, buffing, helping, and coming up with knowledge checks, and other useful stuff that I personally as a player almost always ignore. I would've mentioned her, but like I said, unlike the player in question, she doesn't care about fighting.
Finally, our formerly-was-gonna-be-a-barbarian-now-a-fighter. Brand-spanking new to the game. Only played in our previous game, as a rogue. (His original rogue build before i helped him had the feats run, stealthy, and, IIRC, skill focus acrobatics...str 8 and no weapon finesse, and the like)
Well, he sure wasn't enjoying his original rogue. He was making a lot of faces and stuff when he stabbed for next to nothing, couldn't get into flank, and the like, when someone else came up and two-handed power attack-furious-focused for like 38 damage. I'm not saying he won't enjoy this character, but I am saying based upon previous evidence, it's not likely. Meanwhile, once he got tweaked out, and could charging-sneak-attack for a good amount of damage while being more mobile than the other tank, he was enjoying himself a lot more...or so it appeared.
Serious side-note, though, if anyone knows an open SRD-style site in Portuguese, that would be awesome and super-useful!
Let the guy play something he's comfortable with first. Doesn't matter how optimized something is if the player's gotta look up 3 rulebooks during his turn because someone helped him with his build and he's hasn't gotten the hang of it yet. Think of someone who always gets someone else to help make their characters. Normal course of action, plays fine. Monkey wrench gets thrown at them with something they're unused to, or ask them for rules to back up abilities, and generally it can be a scramble of, "Hey guy, how did I get this bonus?"
People are always gonna learn more if they go through all the steps of learning/playing the game: build a character from ground up, play it, learn from it, and apply lessons in future.
As a GM maybe keep a plot-hook in mind to introduce a new character IF he does want to bring a new build/character in and if a simple retrain/rebuild doesn't work.
If you are saying this about a player, in a game, then you are doing something wrong. People don't play games to be punished. Maybe you guys need to evaluate how you play more than condemn how he wants to.Do I shut up, let him learn his lesson...
So you're saying I should play with kid gloves on, despite the fact the other five characters have told me repeatedly they're looking forward to a serious challenge?
I have no idea how accurate it, because I don't speak Portuguese... but you could try using Google Translate on the SRD.
The url is a bit of a mess but;
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=pt&js=y&prev= _t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.d20pfsrd.com%2F&edit-t ext=&act=url
Thanks Jon Hunt! I'm totally gonna link that to him.
You wouldn't happen to know if that's Portugal Portuguese or Brazillian, would you? Apparently there's a huge difference, like with Spain and Latin American Spanish or American and Ridiculous British which thinks cookies are biscuits (BUT DANGIT A BISCUIT IS NOT SWEET) English.
NOTE- I love my British compatriots. I have British In-laws. This is my way of showing my love. Fish and Chips is the greatest fast food ever, and I thank you for it, but you'll never convince me that beans on toast is good for breakfast, dangit.
If many enemies are not evil and/or there are more serious opponents than the paladin has smites, the fighter should do fine.
Also there is the melee, switch hitter, reach area denial, archer, mounted lance, grappler, tripper, etc... possibilities.
If he tries to make something just like the paladin? Yes, it will probably go poorly.
You could also suggest the paladin and the fighter take complementary teamwork feats. That will help them to work together more closely.
A serious challenge doesn't always mean loads of combat a tricky puzzle that requires good team week can prove a real challenge and maybe one there not set up for and so even more difficult
Unfortunately I have no idea, it is just listed as Portuguese!
Also have you considered running some one-on-one sessions with him? When I introduced my girlfriend to Pathfinder (she had never played any Pen and Paper RPG before, and wasn't a gamer really) I went through a module with her; Into the Haunted Forest
I made her character with her, and offered her set options. Most players are daunted by the sheer choice in this game, and with 100+ books available it is no surprise.
So let him be his fighter, but ask him to reveal his character idea, and work through the design process together. I would very much recommend not offering to make his character for him, or offering to "Help fix." his character as he will see that as you saying his build is rubbish. Work from the ground up - and tell him the truth as to why you are doing it. Don't pretend it is for party composition if it's not.
Make it a fun process, expand upon their ideas - don't dictate them. If they are looking to choose something suboptimal (Like picking up Blind-Fight as a first feat) remind them of their concept and how to build something both enjoyable to them and powerful at the same time.
A serious challenge doesn't always mean loads of combat a tricky puzzle that requires good team week can prove a real challenge and maybe one there not set up for and so even more difficult
As you can tell from the characters he listed, they are prepared for a very serious combat challenge, and that's obviously what they're talking about.
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If you are the GM, this is no problem at all. Let him build the character he wants, and then drop him extra loot to bring him up to snuff as necessary.
I feel like it's FAR better to give a player extra WBL until they don't feel useless, rather than restricting their character design because everyone else is an optimizer. If he has a concept, let him roll with it. If you want him to be balanced with the party, then drop him a fancy sword, and a nice set of armor. (And/or some cool items that give him a more versatile set of standard actions to choose from.)
Mr haunt makes a good point have a sit down with your friend and ask him his ideas for his character and what he wants to achieve ,then give some advice but leave all the choices up to him .
That way he gets the advantage of your game knowledge but the character concept is all his, and maybe a one on one mini adventure so he can better get to grips with the finer points of his fighter
And by the way beans on toast is not breakfast its just a snack now a full blown fry up that's breakfast eggs bacon sausage mushrooms black pudding beans fried slice and a mug of tea that's breakfast
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Except there's gonna be a pally in the party, and if my previous experience is any indication, a pally can do everything a fighter can do, and more...
Well, except evil acts.
Which are actually quite useful.
Yes but to a party geared for combat, a greater challenge may be found in other ways
Im not say no combat but having characters have to think outside the box can provide some memorable games
Problem with giving him extra loot is I can't make the party unfairly distribute drops. (On phone now, replies will be much more brief)
The sad part is, they actually are NOT the best combat class.
I did a by-the-numbers analysis a while back, and at every level except 20th, the Fighter loses to the Barbarian on damage.
There's been many DPR contests and the number range by quite a bit, depending on assumptions and biases.
Fighters do very well in the DPR dept.
And some Pally focus on healing more. Or the fighter can be a reach weapon or archer. Reach weapon fighter, behind a Sword & Board Pally can be really nasty. or the other way around.
if the pally is sword & board with a high CHA, the fighter can out do him easily with a high STR and a two handed weapon.
In our group, our Fighter was hands down the most dangerous PC, all the way thru 13th level. Beat out the Pally easily. Mind you, that pally had a really high CHA and several feats into healing.
Problem with giving him extra loot is I can't make the party unfairly distribute drops. (On phone now, replies will be much more brief)
If you drop a Gloves of Dueling, who else could even use it?
Plus, he's probably using a different weapon than the paladin. If he is is using a polearm and the paladin is using a great sword, drop an awesome polearm and it'll be clear who it's gonna go to.
If you really think the pally might grab his nice new sword, you could even put an evil inscription or an unholy symbol or something etched right onto the blade.
Problem with giving him extra loot is I can't make the party unfairly distribute drops. (On phone now, replies will be much more brief)
Of course you cant. But if the Pally is a longsword guy and the fighter a greatsword dude, who will get the really cool greatsword?
And likely only one of them will be a shield user. Etc.
Next- so there's two suits of plate-, one of them is rust proof, always clean, +1 and with the symbol of the paladins deity on it. The other is simply +3.
The fighter will NEED a resistance item, whilst the pally can laugh at saves.
Very easy to manipulate. But be fair.
Suggest he coordinate his character with the other warrior-types in the group. Offload some of the effort on the players so that they can mutually figure out how their characters can work together effectively.
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As a DM I think it is a poor idea to fix character build issues by throwing extra gear at them. I do not reward failure. I certainly do not reward failure more than success.
"Let him learn his lesson on his own" comes across as harsh but it is close to the concept I go with. I would not drop extra loot only one character could use in excess of what other characters have. This breeds jealousy among players. It is likely they would be concerned why one player is getting more loot than another and plead favoritism.
I would rather the game unfold naturally and if he discovers that his build has left him wanting to offer to help him. Perhaps along the way you could point out where some of his weak spots are if he has them and offer advice.
In the end, it really is the player's choice how they build their character. Right? I mean, it isn't like you are going to tell him he isn't allowed to build his character any certain way, are you? So what is the real question here, anyway?
Problem with giving him extra loot is I can't make the party unfairly distribute drops. (On phone now, replies will be much more brief)If you drop a Gloves of Dueling, who else could even use it?
Plus, he's probably using a different weapon than the paladin. If he is is using a polearm and the paladin is using a great sword, drop an awesome polearm and it'll be clear who it's gonna go to.
If you really think the pally might grab his nice new sword, you could even put an evil inscription or an unholy symbol or something etched right onto the blade.
Many/Some groups will just sell everything so that the loot can be divided evenly.
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I think it is strange how people are assuming that the fighter is not competitive.
It's a functional class, just not very good at utility. Yes, the paladin is probably better, but that shouldn't matter. Just throw more at the party than just the paladin can handle. The fighter will get his hands dirty and a good time will be had by all.
To repeat: I'm not saying the fighter is great or anything, but it's not SO bad that everyone needs to roll their eyes when a fighter is selected. There are classes that are MUCH worse in this regard than the fighter is.