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Thanks for the feedback on Mythic, magnuskn. Obviously, Mythic and WotR were written long before I got here, but it's still useful to me moving forward. Interestingly, your review, particularly with respect to the Mythic martial buffs causing the most havoc at lower levels, also provides an extremely good counterpoint to calls to give non-Mythic access to such abilities to martials. We have the playtest data now from people playing WotR about what that would do, and it sounds like it ain't pretty!
Mark, anyone who is calling for a damage buff for martials isn't right in the head to begin with.
The need for buffs for martials is in defenses (for Rogues and Fighters in particular) and out of combat versatility.
If they are looking for more damage...yeah, Mythic is a pretty clear case that it's not necessary.
==Aelryinth
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Not saying that playing without XP is a bad thing, mind you! If that works better for you, then by all means do so! Whatever is most fun for you and your group, I say go for it! However, I don't believe for a second that it's an issue of pointing the finger at the XP system and saying, "It's all your fault," is accurate.
While what you say is true, Mythic did break the Pathfinder XP system. By giving players ways to gain power that was separate from levels, and having XP only go into levels, characters quickly got to a power level where the things that would challenge them have them level up too much.
A level 12 / tier 4 character is nominally (according to the incorrect guidelines in the rules) equivalent to a level 14 character, and in reality equivalent to a level 16 character. However, their rate of levelling up is still just what you'd get at level 12. An "at level" challenge encounter is supposed to get a character only something like 1/14 of the way to the next level; an "epic" encounter (APL+4) only about 1/4 of the way to the next level.
However, an encounter that's the right challenge level to be "at APL" for a level 12 / tier 4 party is going to be 1/4 of the way to the next level, and an "epic" encounter will get them almost all the way.
There is a real problem in game design here. The experience award tables for CR and APL are designed to more or less match appropriate challenges to appropriate rate of level increase. Mythic tiers increase APL (although not enough, we've seen, but still) when it comes to appropriate challenges, but not for the rate of level increase. So you're faced with a choice: either you start lowballing the challenge of encounters, or characters are going to go up in level too fast.
There are lots of flaws in Mythic, as has been documented. This is just one of them. And, yeah, you can work around it, but it sounds like the design of Wrath of the Righteous did not, and was hamstrung by wanting to stick to RAW and the wrench that Mythic threw into how experience works. So, while pointing the finger at the XP system and saying "It's all your fault" may not be accurate, it's partially accurate in this case.
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If it came down to the XP budget than they should have switched to medium or even slow XP rates. I know that people will complain about getting levels to late or what not but it would have accounted for all the extra fights that took place that weren't necessary.
I am just going into the dungeon in Dreznan and I feel like I need to get rid of some of the encounters that don't really make sense. The Vampire Orc in the basement to me just doesn't fit with the whole theme of the story. Maybe a throw in a corrupt Aasimar who fell from the light and is now the head interrogator for the demons would be more along the lines.
also the 4 Salamanders by the forge just feel under powered, put in an Efreeti and 3 salamanders who try to throw the PCs in to the forge or over the edge of the pit would be more interesting.
I agree with more story and less fights " just because," this is the first AP I have ever run and I have changed a few things. I want my PCs to feel epic, I know curb stomping baddies at times does help but not all the time. I want them to feel like they are going to need to blow all their "cool downs" to survive.
I wanted to offer my own input on this excellent thread, both as feedback to the designers and to offer up a viable option that I've mentioned before and has worked very well for us. The group included four very well-made and well-played characters using a 20 point buy.
First of all, we ditched Mythic rules entirely. Instead, the characters gained additional levels at what would have been Mythic tiers 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 10, meaning they finished at 26th level. We found that the earlier access to spells and the increased BAB went a long way towards balancing the campaign.
Secondly, at higher levels we instituted our own 'Epic rules' which were pretty simple. X times per day you could add X to any d20 roll after the roll was made, where X equaled the number of epic levels they had achieved. Epic levels were anything over 20, meaning at 23rd level one could add +3 to any d20 roll 3/day as a free action. It made for a nice bit of 'destiny-making'.
These two changes collectively added a lot to mechanical gameplay but ensured that encounters remained a challenge.They were very, very simple to make using the existing rules as is.
A couple of caveats: I always tailor magical treasure to balance the PC's (up or down) and tend to customize most of it. We also had a number of side-quests added and some tweaks to the side-plots, but almost all were inspired by material in the AP itself or in the Worldwound campaign setting. NPC's were often radically altered or outright replaced.
As to the story, we thought the AP was magnificently set-up and unlike some others, we found it engaging throughout. Extremely satisfying once the Mythic elements were removed.
@Wiggz:
This sounds like an interesting solution! But I have a few questions ...
Did you remove the Mythic elements from the monsters/NPC foes too?
Were the NPCs changed to suit personal taste/play style, or did you need to give them a substantial "power-up"?
Were the extra side-quests there for XP purposes, or simply to expand the story/setting?
Did you find any of the treasure to be over-powered for this (adjusted) style of campaign?
If a PC hit L 20 in a class, was the next level in some other class or did you allow some form of L 21+ in a single class?
Did you use/allow anything from the PF "epic" rules in the CRB or from the Epic Level Handbook (originally 3.0, then updated per PDF to 3.5)?
Do you think that the same thing could be done with 15-point build characters in a group of four or five members?
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Yeah, I'm in Book 4 now and I hate running this AP. I'm basically only continuing to run it as a favor, because the players will probably never get to use the mythic rules set again.
It start out very strong, IMHO. The loss of a city and the PCs set up for a mythic destiny. Then the PCs hit Tier 3 and everything goes sideways.
Mythic PCs with high initiative scores can end the encounters before most of the party goes, much less the monsters. You get an initiative bonus equal to your tier. Even a cleric can manage an initiative score that keeps her ahead of most monsters. We've gone through lots of fights with 2 PCs acting. Not fun.
Once the PCs hit Tier 6, they get get the functional equivalent of evasion against all non-mythic enemies. If they save, no damage. Which means for most fights, there is no threat. Not even to bleed them of resources.
Automatic no-save hexes against non-mythic enemies. Massive static damage and full attacks after a move. Incredible DCs. Even the mythic critters can't keep up with the power curve. And in Relentless Healing and Faith's Reach and the healer never has to spend actions healing. She just lets you die, then spends 1 MP with a free action to cast any healing spell she has ready.
A huge part of the problem was that I bought the AP as it was being released, so I'm getting the mythic rules in drips. You can't see the big picture until 3rd tier and by then you're already committed. So, just in the first module, the PCs not only become mythic (less of an issue in the module because it's at the end) but they also get a subset of Devotion Points, which can get them free feats and even a +2 stat mod. This is before mythic, so they stack. And you get a bonus to your campaign trait. This becomes a mythic trait, so you get the mythic system and a trait that immediately breaks the trait rules (1/2 value of a feat). Exposed to Awfulness gives +3 HP/level. That's just a trait.
Yeah, the developers went all out on giving goodies to the players. As usual, a lack of playtesting due to development crunch time leads to them only eyeballing balance and getting it, it seems every more often nowadays, wrong.
I do wonder if the cashflow at the company is so precarious that they never are able to take a step back and think about changing up this process to deliver less flawed products.
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Probably due to them wanting to get 2 different APs out each year,
why not do one book every 2 months, 1 a year instead of 2,
plus the fluff books monthly
a campaign setting book (whenever they are released in a year)
plus a hard cover one?
From what I get Paizo isn't a massive company seems to me that they are stretched to their limits but have committed to this years ago.
Most people don't finish an entire AP in a year but they put out 2 (12 books) in one year just seems overly ambitious to me.
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Here's another complaint - alignment and succession. The PCs get their mythic powers through a sacrificial act. If they die, the next mythic guy from the village down the road just shows up to take their place, because it is inherently unfair to have some mythic and some non-mythic PCs.
And while the AP is made for good characters, there's nothing to stop PCs from being neutral except DM fiat. So if you do questionable things, you don't really run the risk of losing the mythic buffs because fairness. And there are several times when PCs can take boons from demons that should have serious in-AP repercussions. Nope. Neither the mythic power source nor the demons providing the boon are taking it back.
I know we shouldn't delve into an alignment discussion but...
I don't believe that there was anything good or holy called out by the PCs ascension. I remember that they were more at the right place at the right time. Also if PCs are consistently more evil, then they could or should be corruptible by the demons here and fail.
But I also told my PCs to be good.
Probably due to them wanting to get 2 different APs out each year,
why not do one book every 2 months, 1 a year instead of 2,
plus the fluff books monthly
a campaign setting book (whenever they are released in a year)
plus a hard cover one?From what I get Paizo isn't a massive company seems to me that they are stretched to their limits but have committed to this years ago.
Most people don't finish an entire AP in a year but they put out 2 (12 books) in one year just seems overly ambitious to me.
Won't happen... Pathfinder Adventure Path is their flagship and biggest cash cow. They'd dump the ancillary world books and offshoots long before they cut the AP to 6 issues a year.
Of course, I speak in no official capacity, but I've seen similar statements from the staff in the past. =)
By and large, the APs have been very high quality. Even WotR's problem seem to lie more with MA than its own design/story (of course, they're conjoined twins, in a sense). I see no reason that trend won't continue...
IMO, after stumbles like MA and ACG, I think I'd be happy if they tone back the innovations a tad and instead focus on solidifying the core.
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While some of the issues are unconnected (ridiculously under-CRed fights, etc), the Path was developed alongside Mythic Adventures rather than afterwards, which... is not a method I would have recommended. :)
Probably why there not doing an Occult advture themed path to accompany the book release (Give themselves more time to get a feel for the new rules and all that.) May have the odd class or two though.
Well, they didn't do an ACG AP, either.
A lot of NPC warrior groups will get a big boost from the Skald. That's pretty much all the class is good for, though. :p
Yeah, the developers went all out on giving goodies to the players. As usual, a lack of playtesting due to development crunch time leads to them only eyeballing balance and getting it, it seems every more often nowadays, wrong.
I do wonder if the cashflow at the company is so precarious that they never are able to take a step back and think about changing up this process to deliver less flawed products.
Unfortunately, in corporate culture more generally, even when cash flow isn't technically that precarious, somehow it is that precarious in practice. Not at all unique to any particular gaming company . . . Makes me want another AP that revisits the concept of Thassilonian Sin Magic.
Well, they didn't do an ACG AP, either.
{. . .}
See? Their judgment hasn't become permanently impaired after all . . . .
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Damage goes up by a factor of 10. Hit points go up by a factor of 2. Somehow, that leads to everything dying in a single round. Go figure.
This is lies and balderdash. I don't know how you can end up getting a PC's hit points to go up by a factor of two with Mythic, and what sort of PCs are you running with that only multiply their damage output by ten?
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Are there any 'Making Mythic Actually Mythic' projects around? Shouldn't there be?
The first two books are at the printer now, the third is almost done in layout. That book, the Mythic Hero's Handbook, also includes a section on the Challenges of Mythic Play, including subsections discussing rules issues with alternative solutions for:
Action Economy
The Nova Problem
Stacking Multipliers
Single Ability Focus
Rapid Recovery
Bypassing Immunity and Resistance
Unlimited Caster Versatility,
Rocket Tag, or There Is No Kill Like Overkill
If you check out our listings of already published mythic products, especially in the Mythic Paths section, you'll find a generally cinematic and dynamic approach to making mythic things FEEL different from just regular stuff with slightly boosted numbers.
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welcome to my review of Wrath of the Righteous and the applicable parts of Mythic Adventures.
I've read this post several times. I greatly appreciate the comments that magnuskn has written regarding Mythic play and the Wrath of the Righteous AP both here and elsewhere.
I'm curious about any thoughts on the Mythic Solutions material from Legendary Games and if those rules adjustments work. Thank you!
Contributor
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welcome to my review of Wrath of the Righteous and the applicable parts of Mythic Adventures.I've read this post several times. I greatly appreciate the comments that magnuskn has written regarding Mythic play and the Wrath of the Righteous AP both here and elsewhere.
I'm curious about any thoughts on the Mythic Solutions material from Legendary Games and if those rules adjustments work. Thank you!
I haven't put them into practice yet for continuity reasons; I want to see if I can hold out through the end of Book 3 by making adjustments.
That said, I think they'll tamp down some of the worst excesses of Mythic. You'll still want to look at what your players are taking, though; I'm lucky enough to have only 3 PCs (and no Archmage).
Feel free to PM me if you have questions. I assume you're planning to run WotR; have you started yt?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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welcome to my review of Wrath of the Righteous and the applicable parts of Mythic Adventures.I've read this post several times. I greatly appreciate the comments that magnuskn has written regarding Mythic play and the Wrath of the Righteous AP both here and elsewhere.
I'm curious about any thoughts on the Mythic Solutions material from Legendary Games and if those rules adjustments work. Thank you!
Here's Endzeitgeist's review of the book on his site.
You can read his full review there; his conclusion is copied below:
Conclusion:
Editing and formatting are top-notch. The pdf adheres to legendary Games’ 2-column full-color standard and the book sports numerous nice artworks in full-color. the pdf has no bookmarks, but you should print it out anyways and tape it into Mythic Adventures.
Damn, spoiler’d there, didn’t I? Jason Nelson’s mythic solutions are the single most required pdf any group utilizing mythic rules can buy. Period. This pdf should have been part of the original book. The design is cleaner and more concise, providing ways to deal with how some of the broken aspects of mythic gameplay can wreck your table. It is my firm belief, that, were this part of the default rules, more groups would be loving WotR. This is, pretty much, a non-optional survival kit, a true fix for some of the nastiest issues mythic gameplay provides…and even if you happen to like one of those broken components, the pdf doesn’t judge you for it and still has plenty of other fixes you WILL appreciate. In fact, even regarding non-mythic high-level gameplay, some fixes here can tremendously enrich your game and radically change the tone of your PFRPG-game. (*Cough* buff-limit */cough*)
This book, in fact, is in my opinion just as crucial to mythic gameplay as the core book (and a healthy dose of LG-books) – this is the non-optional fix for the issues, a superb little pdf…and for mythic games, definitely essential and non-optional. Hence, my final verdict will clock in at 5 stars + seal of approval and I will also add my EZG Essential-tag to this book. It makes mythic gameplay so much more rewarding, you’ll never want to miss this gem.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Actually looked again on the Mythic Solutions product page here at Paizo, and there are 3 reviews there (including Endzeitgeist's), so you could check their comments as well.
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I heavily agree with this review. I managed to make a few of the NPCs really interesting and the fights were horrible. Honestly I was really looking forward to book 5 before I ran it because the encounters were really cool and the atmosphere seemed really threatening and terrifying. Lots of potential. I however did not account for my players to be able to cast 8th level spells 20 something times a day and the paladin to have an ac of about 60. Book 3 was my favorite because the players had started to be powerful but we're not overly so. Xanthar vang was an interesting fight and I really enjoyed the players talking to him before the fight. Actually managed to kill the fighter with a mythic disentigrate spell. But overall the path was not very good.
I honestly love the story of Wrath of the Righteous, but were I to run it I'd probably use FATE rather than pathfinder to keep the focus on the awesome narrative rather than combat.
Did you ever get around to running the campaign using Fate? I have considered running a module or two using Fate Core and the Fate Freeport Companion.
I ran this in my tabletop group, and because of how flawed the Mythic system is I limited them to two uses of their mythic powers per day. That was for each one, but I got rid of the auto confirm and a lot of than as they had to chose to activate their mythic powers before making their action, and each thing was limited to twice a day. This lead to a greater challenge for them, though we managed to get through with only one PC death.