Hey guys,
I've been reading up on Clerics recently, various Class Guides and threads on the Advice message boards, and while there are various types of Cleric to create, I have come across two different schools of thought on building Clerics: High Mobility vs. High Armour Class.
High Mobility Clerics focus on using plenty of movement on the battlefield, most notably by having a higher DEX, sticking to lighter armours and, perhaps, building up the Acrobatics skill. These Clerics typically affect combat at a distance.
High Armour Class Clerics expect to get hit, and prepare themselves with a Feat investment in Heavy Armour Proficiency, Combat Casting, Dodge, and Toughness, while having great STR and CON stats as well. These Clerics typically wade into the melee.
I know character preferences very much depend on the player, but I'm creating my first Cleric and wanted to hear from players regarding their experience playing the above two styles of Cleric: what you loved or hated; what to anticipate; various techniques for overcoming short-falls, etc.
I appreciate any and all input,
:Byronus
Both go high AC with the travel domain.
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There really isn't that much difference in AC between Heavy Armor and Light Armor + High Dex. Heavy armor has better flatfooted AC and Light Armor has better Touch AC, so that's a wash.
The only real difference between the two is that the light armor wearer will have better initiative, reflex saves, and will be 10' or 15' faster unless you're a dwarf, while the heavy armor wearer will be able to afford a higher STR for an extra feat or two over finesse, more encumbrance, and better damage.
If you're going to be healing and casting and not wading into combat, I like high AC. You're not proficient with heavy armor or tower shields? The penalties only apply to attack rolls, so let your summons do the work for you while you tank around in full plate with a door strapped to your arm.
If you'll be wading into combat, or you want to take archery feats and hammer on people at range, the higher mobility approach is probably a better option.
What role do you see yourself filling?
I had very good success with a mobile strength-based charisma-to-AC lore oracle. I played him out to be like the Doctor from a certain BBC tv show so being able to run was a big deal for me. I knew grace spell to get past AoO's and reach, liberating command to help out with grapples (party wizard kept extolling the virtues of black tentacles that I knew I'd never wanna get stuck in it), wore feather-step slippers to run past through difficult terrain: steep stairse, bushes, the aftereffects of stone call, etc. This was a few years ago so there wasn't yet that many options for a character like mine to do that much damage, even when I was Strength based, compared to my optimized party members. However I proved essential with my tactics. When I get to paralyzed party members, I'd use the drag maneuver to pull them away to relative safetly; knowing breath of life is great and all, but have to get to a party member in ONE move action in order to benefit, so I and the freshly-dead-party-member can't afford for me to be slowed down by difficult terrain, armor/encumbrance, and enemies in the way.
Granted, clerics require different tactics. Especially with the whole prepared spells versus spontaneous spells being an issue. Helped build out a cleric of Cayden before once. Dex based (get Reckless trait for Acrobatics) with the travel domain for +10 ft movement and all the mobility powers that come with it ensures your cleric gets from point A to point B to really affect the tide of battle. With new Fencing Grace feat available, it's even easier to build a proper Cayden cleric wielding a rapier and contribute to damage. To get Fencing Grace ASAP without multiclassing, I'd suggest being a Human cleric with Adopted Parentage (tengu) in order to get Weapon Focus (rapier) at level 1. Can afford Fencing Grace by level 3. Or as someone would undoubtedly suggest, level dip as inspired blade swashbuckler at level 1.
All the well-built mobile finessing clerics/oracles/healers I've played personally or seen stuck with melee. Ranged feats are too harsh to get around with average BAB and require too many right at the beginning in order for the character to be any use. Plus as I've always argued, if at range sniping at bad guys with for example at a 1d8+2 Str composite bow and whatever enhancements it may have, how is the sniping cleric really helping out the party? Some spells like bless have great range, but a lot of buffs are touch-based and almost all the healing is; and frankly average BAB ranged attacks are not that accurate at higher levels. More opportunities to do whatever is needed or whatever you'd want with your character magic or combat-wise when in melee with the party, or at very least, short-range sniping (within move action range away from party).
This isn't even for heal-bot play. I'd never advocate that unless you'd want it. But for versatility in action, mobility is important. If doing the High AC build with heavy armor, travel domain would still allow you to move as fast as light armor rogue, and the stated previous tactics with spells and actions can still benefit the tanky-cleric. A cleric can be a monster when fully prepped to full-attack (haste, righteous might, etc) so it pays off to worry about mobility for flanking and whatnot with options to do so (spells and domains) that even the regular full-attacking party members have access to.
My first Cleric will be for a one-off introductory session that'll give some curious people their first taste of Pen & Paper RPGing. I'm a more experienced player and decided on making a Cleric just to help keep the rookies alive. I expect the other TWO players will probably have martial characters: Fighters and/or Rogues.
I suspect there will only be THREE players and the GM. We will be using the Core Rulebook ONLY, and characters will be at level FIVE.
The plot, as I understand it through a brief discussion with the GM, will be simple: the players have successfully escorted a trade caravan to a town in a hostile area, and are hanging out in a tavern after getting paid, when the nearby Goblin(?) hordes will storm the city in an night-time raid. Our mission would be to help escort a local sailing merchant at the tavern with us to the docks so we can sail away to safety on his ship, while the town burns to the ground around us.
I've really enjoyed reading Brewer's Guide to Reach Clerics and was thinking along those lines, though I do find his build to be particular Attribute intensive. Perhaps a Reach Battle Cleric build would be better overall, focusing on STR and WIS without any dump stats. I don't know...
What I HAVE decided is the following:
Class/Level: Cleric 5;
Race: Varisian Human;
Alignment/Deity: Chaotic Good worshipper of Cayden Cailean;
Domains: Good & Travel
Preferred Weapon: Longspear;
Feats: Power Attack + 3 others.
Good choices but don't forget you can be a cleric of a "concept" that worships several gods. Once I made a cleric of "the traveling light" I chose the travel and the healing domains. The Traveling light as I put it were traveling healers.
edit or was it the "wandering Light" and they were wandering healers....same difference. Best healing cleric I have ever made in my opinion.
Even though it's going to be a one-off session, I still want to hint to the rookies about the continuous, story-telling element of RPGs.
Despite the short game-life of my Cleric, I have written a fairly elaborate back-story for him I will elude to the players during our session. Cayden Cailean, the deity, is very important to this back-story, so worshipping a concept is not in the cards for him.
Concept worship is a killer option, but not to be explored here. :) Thanks, axatillian.
Both!!.... Take a 1 lvl monk dip and watch your AC go skywards as your Wis improves and with acrobatics as a class skill and some skill point investment have excellent mobility too.... Travel domain with +10 speed combined with expeditious retreat (+30 speed) and you will be able to escape just about any tricky situation!.....a 70ft base speed = +16 modifier on acrobatics checks!!! You should easily be able to achieve with some skill points +25 on Acrobatics checks....
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@OP - I like the Reach Cleric guide, too, and play several reach clerics. That said, Brewer goes in for more attribute dumping than I'm typically OK with. I've found that the reach cleric approach works fine as long as STR is at least 14. At 5th level there will be about a 20% combat difference between STR14 and STR18. Similarly, Combat Reflexes and Power Attack each seem to increase combat power by about 20%. So no need to dump CHA and INT down to 7, as Brewer does in his examples. Only do that if you wish to optimize combat ability at the expense of social competence.
Saving throws, not Armor Class, is your most important defense. Also, there's not really a big AC difference between heavy armor and dextrous medium armor. I've found that a much bigger defensive measure is avoiding full attacks. I.e. smart tactics and effective use of reach can provide far more protection than a little extra armor. Spending a feat on heavy armor is rarely worthwhile for such a feat-starved build.
Your suggested reach cleric of Cayden Cailean looks very solid. Those are effective choices that should stand you in good stead vs a horde of goblins or whatever else may come. Remember the Nine Cleric Commandments.
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After years of playing a cleric in both 3.5 & Pathfinder this is my jaded view of clerics.
Summon & caster clerics > reach melee >melee > bad touch > channel clerics.
For the past year I have utterly hated all melee and channel clerics....as well as most "full support" builds. Typically they are played with less imagination and terrible strategies that end up looking at a cleric as a heal bot.
You want the most powerful cleric look to the evangelist archetype and focus on either summoning or casting. First purchuse is a wand of cure light wounds.
With the evangelist if I have a anvil in the group I go for the enchantment route and abuse command spell. If I need to move about the battlefield I do so via sanctuary or grace. I use spiritual weapon and divine trident spells "if" I need damage. Swinging a weapon or channeling is wasting action economy for standard action. Reach clerics at least take AoO instead of dedicating to standard attacks.
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Hah funny! Fruian and I posted, separately, within 1 minute. We have very similar perspectives, and have even discussed writing an evangelist cleric guide.
I agree with his rating system, except I see no reason why a summoning cleric should not also get in some AoO melee attacks with reach. Clerics can be martially competent, there's no reason they should hide in the back.
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You can hybrid with combat reflexes, power attack, and sacred summons. Grab ferocity, heroism, or travel domains. Its totally doable.
But being that hybrid your not going to have the save DC to spells like command. And your summons wont have that extra ooomph from augmented summons. But when playing un-optimized and blind group make ups like in PFS the hybrid really shines since it can move from front to back lines easily without feeling useless in any situation.
But for sheer power a specialized cleric is stronger in the end game. But that hybrid isn't far off. Early game tho the hybrid tends to look alot stronger. But that is pathfinder...it favors martial characters the first 9 levels. Then casters come into thier own and become God like.
Thanks for all the input, guys. Keep it coming. :)
A mithral breastplate will let you keep your full move speed with very respectable AC. It came in handy for my casting cleric when I needed to run around the battlefield to deliver a breath of life.
And keep in mind that without a shield, you won't have a great AC anyway. But you can make up for that a bit with the defending bone spell to get DR 5/bludgeoning.
Skip Acrobatics for getting around the battlefield. Grace is a 2nd-level swift action spell that's like auto-succeeding at Acrobatics.
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Reach and casting is really good, but there are other ways to be an effective Cleric. My Cleric of Erastil is an archer who can switch hit mostly due to the Growth subdomain. The armor he is aiming to get is mithral Hellknight Plate and a buckler. Nobody has questioned his effectiveness. Not all Clerics are gonna be the same, but it is a powerful class with lots of room for variance.
Summon & caster clerics > reach melee >melee > bad touch > channel clerics.
I agree mostly, although a half elf cleric with favoured class option and some (negative) channel feats can be terrifying
x2 (Quickened) 20D6 selective nukes per round is nothing to be sneezed at..... possibly the best AOE spell in the game
After years of playing a cleric in both 3.5 & Pathfinder this is my jaded view of clerics.
Summon & caster clerics > reach melee >melee > bad touch > channel clerics.
What's the advantage of going with a summoning cleric vs a plain old summoner?
My favorite channel cleric build was a friend who built an Aasimar debuff/battlefield control cleric around the Channel Force feat tree. At lower levels, pushing or pulling people around the battlefield was very handy. At higher levels, the flying enemies were quite distressed when the cleric channeled at them and dragged them to the ground to get beaten up. There was really only one way to make that build, though.
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What's the advantage of going with a summoning cleric vs a plain old summoner?
9th level divine spells. The ability to prepare spells for the day.
But summoner is a different class altogether. They both have advantages over each other but at the end of the day if you have a group that needs a Arm a cleric is one of the most perfect fits.
I really like the Evangelist Cleric with Heroism Domain for a summon specialist. SM 4 becomes brutal. Performance + Heroism with the Lantern Archon is just a beautiful and scary thing. Adding in sacred summons for standard action summoning makes them above Wizards in the summoning department.
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I feel that channel clerics have their places, esp with the dazing channel variant. Comeon, if you're summoning or buffing you don't need more then 14 wis, so what if you didnt want to melee like all the other clerics do? You channel, and possibly summon. I'm still trying to find opportunities to playtest the concept, but the mad of it all makes you want to use an aasimar.
And yes, you're stuck with very specific gods, like ra, horus or dispater.
I'm thinking, say with the following stat lineup (aasimar)
10 str, 14 dex, 14 con 10 int, 14 wis, 18 cha
cleric archtype: evangelist
traits: reactionary, sacred conduit
alignment: ln
domain: leadership (or feather if you went horus).
For leadership domain, you can tag that +2 insight to atk, acs, cmd to anyone within 30 ft.
lv 1: anything you like
lv 3: selective channel
lv 5: versatile channel /boon companion.
maybe retrain your lv 1 feat.
Maybe its just theorycraft but Im going to look for opportunities to playtest the idea.
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I've played the above super-mobile offensive channeling evangelist cleric build. It's absurdly effective. I don't recommend this approach unless you're joining a highly optimized party. Using a build like this with a less-optimized team will create a lot of 'always in the spotlight' problems. I created this character to fit in with an ultra-optimized group. Please only use this approach with a super-optimized group, else it will be overpowered and will reduce the fun of others. Against such a group the GM will need to double or treble every encounter, and at high levels just throw up her arms in despair.
Here's one way (see spoiler at bottom) to build an overpowered offensive-channeling evangelist cleric. This particular approach has multiple schticks:
1. High DC dazing channel to harm. It's not mind-influencing. Is anything in-game immune to this?
2. Flagbearer stacked with inspire courage stacked with Banner of the Ancient Kings (at level 8+) gives huge Bard Song bonus: +5/+5 to hit/damage at 8th level. +2/+2 of that is always-on. At 5th level you still pull +3/+3.
3. You and your mount put that bardsong to work in melee. At 8th level you and your mount together can get up to 12 attacks per round, all potentially 1.5x STR and 1.5x Power Attack. Assuming you play down melee ability, this PC can easily inflict 150+ HP per round in melee. Emphasize melee combat, buff up, and that number becomes 300+ HP per round. For a cleric.
4. With minor investment you can be just as good a healer as a vanilla cleric of the same level.
5. You remain a full 9th level spellcaster. No dips. WIS is low, so never cast a spell offensively. Summoning is a very powerful option. E.g. Your inspired lantern archons inflict about 17 HP per round, up from 7 HP per round.
Another reason to play this type of cleric is if you face a group that views clerics as healbots. One of these clerics in that game will utterly banish the notion that 'clerics are healbots'. In that context I might play this character with a less-optimized group until they all 'got it'. Once they understood the dis-service they'd done to clerics, and had atoned for their sins, I'd switch to something less optimal.
Right now I'm playing a dwarf cleric of Abadar 8/Holy Vindicator 1 in a RotR campaign. With the travel domain and Longstrider as my level 1 domain spell (lasts the entire adventuring day) I have 40ft. movement in full plate, so I'm very mobile. My AC is 37 (41 against giants) with a couple of self buffs plus my Vindicator's shield. So far it's worked out very well; we're just finishing up book three and the majority of the monsters we fight - giants - need a natural 20 to hit me. My AC would be even higher if not for the fact that at level 9 I only have +1 armor and a non-magical shield.
So, to answer your question, I chose both =)
I appreciate all the replies; you guys are awesome. :)
I guess I may have, in my attempt to catch your attention, written a misleading thread title, as I wouldn't necessarily considering having a higher-than-average movement rate as being mobile per se. :(
The dilemma I'm having is whether it's wise to have Cleric who uses Acrobatics, as the ability to successfully utilize Acrobatics means Armour Class has to be sacrificed somewhat.
The Mithral Breastplate suggestion is brilliant, as it provides a solid Armour Class while only penalizing Acrobatics checks with 1 point of Armour Check Penalty.
Since Mithral Breastplate acts as Light Armour for the purposes of movement, a Cleric of the Travel Domain, with Longstrider cast, is looking at 50 feet of movement per round. This translates into 25 feet of Acrobatic movement through threatened squares while avoiding the +10 penalty to the Dice Check against the opponent's Combat Manoeuver Defence. ;) This is killer for a Reach Cleric.
That being settled, I have a question: Why is it recommended NOT to enhance the Armour? Yes, there are spells that can provide excellent bonuses to buff the Cleric's defences, but doesn't a heavily enhanced armour free up a Cleric's spell-casting slot to cast something else?
Also, regarding Feat selections, and considering the CORE RULEBOOK ONLY limitation, I have the following choices in mind: Power Attack, Toughness, Skill Focus (Acrobatics), and Scribe Scroll. I'm not sure if Scribe Scroll is a good choice, since this is planned as a one-shot session. Thoughts?
Thanks again for everything,
Byronus
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The dilemma I'm having is whether it's wise to have Cleric who uses Acrobatics, as the ability to successfully utilize Acrobatics means Armour Class has to be sacrificed somewhat.
I've played a few of acrobatic clerics. Magda is a 10th level acrobatic reach cleric. I find acrobatics works great up to about level 5, but later begins to fail more and more. Clerics have no way to boost acrobatics skill to keep up with high CMD foes.
Also, clerics have a few tricky ways to accomplish the same effect (move while avoiding AoOs, set up for AoOs) that are more reliable and don't rely on acrobatics. E.g. Grace spell, Plant (growth) subdomain. If you can move without taking AoOs you will rarely take a Full Attack, which is a much better defense than extra AC. So mobility > AC, unless your plan is to deliberately stand up front and take hits.
I really enjoy using acrobatics, and it often comes in handy, but you can't count on it working versus really tough foes. From mid-levels on acrobatics becomes useful mostly for 'environment' things, like moving through grease. By the time you can Fly (5th level for Animal(Feather) domain ) Acrobatics ceases to matter as much.
That being settled, I have a question: Why is it recommended NOT to enhance the Armour? Yes, there are spells that can provide excellent bonuses to buff the Cleric's defences, but doesn't a heavily enhanced armour free up a Cleric's spell-casting slot to cast something else?
Sure, put +1 enchant on your armor. It's cheap and always there.
the advice to eschew armor enhancement really only applies to high level characters. The point is that a high level ( 12th+) divine caster can enhance armor and weapons ALL DAY without burning a spell slot. Here's how: own a Lesser Rod of Extend; keep an open 3rd level spell slot; before sleeping prepare Magic Vestment in that open spell slot; cast extended magic vestment; in the morning prepare an open 3rd level spell slot. The armor is now enchanted to +3, for 24 hours, and you still have your open spell slot for your day of adventure. This saves considerable gold over buying +3 armor enchant. An arcane caster, or a divine caster with a Normal Extend Rod, can do a similar trick with Greater Magic Weapon, for double the gold savings.
This trick is most useful once one approaches 12th level, for the 24 hour duration. It works for Endure Elements at first level, though! At lower levels you will need to burn the spell the same day to have it active.
Also, regarding Feat selections, and considering the CORE RULEBOOK ONLY limitation, I have the following choices in mind: Power Attack, Toughness, Skill Focus (Acrobatics), and Scribe Scroll. I'm not sure if Scribe Scroll is a good choice, since this is planned as a one-shot session. Thoughts?
Usually offense is more important than defense. So Power Attack. If, in this case, you feel more defense is in order, choose Toughness instead. Skill Focus (Acrobatics) might be nice, but is unlikely to make the difference between failure and success against a CMD 32 foe. Scribe Scroll won't get you anything in a one-shot session.
The dilemma I'm having is whether it's wise to have Cleric who uses Acrobatics, as the ability to successfully utilize Acrobatics means Armour Class has to be sacrificed somewhat.I've played a few of acrobatic clerics. Magda is a 10th level acrobatic reach cleric. I find acrobatics works great up to about level 5, but later begins to fail more and more. Clerics have no way to boost acrobatics skill to keep up with high CMD foes.
Perhaps if Acrobatics were a Class skill for Clerics, it would be a different story. :(
Also, clerics have a few tricky ways to accomplish the same effect (move while avoiding AoOs, set up for AoOs) that are more reliable and don't rely on acrobatics. E.g. Grace spell, Plant (growth) subdomain. If you can move without taking AoOs you will rarely take a Full Attack, which is a much better defense than extra AC. So mobility > AC, unless your plan is to deliberately stand up front and take hits.
Perhaps it's better, and more economical, to grab the "Dodge" and "Mobility" Feats, instead of "Skill Focus: Acrobatics", the "Acrobatic" Feat AND build up your Acrobatics skill. At the very least, you'll save the skill points.