I love the guide Angry Wiggles! Minor quibble with the above post... you have the cleric spellcasting gaining 7th level spells at character level 15 (1 cleric level after it gained level 6 spells) An adjusted end progression would be
** spoiler omitted **
This gives effective spellcaster level: 14 wizard, 16 cleric. Assuming that character has 35 Fame in a magic guild, Esoteric Training would give +3/+1 to the effective level, or 17 wizard 17 cleric... just squeaking in for level 9 spells in each class.
Of course, if available at a particular table, Esoteric training would likely kick in earlier than level 20 (but likely no earlier than character level 6 or 7, depending on how the willing DM handles guilds) ... but arguments about that are probably better off in other places.
Bah! You are absolutely correct. That's what I get for filling that out at dinner. It still works, just slightly less effectively.
^Where do you find Eclectic Training and Esoteric Training? I cannot find them in d20pfsrd, Archives of Nethys, or the Paizo PRD.
As Adept_Woodwright has already stated, it is in Inner Sea Magic in the Magic Schools section. If your GM uses the optional ruleset, it's something that every caster has access to if they belong to the organization. It doesn't cost feats or skill ranks or anything.
I haven't forgotten about it, it's just in a particularly odd location, so finding a place to fit it in the guide is tricky. I've been debating adding yet another section to the guide to include shenanigans that are theurge exclusive, or at least nearly so, and that may be included there. I know I want to include it, just not where it will fit best.
Purely hypothetical, and barring alignment issues...
How early could you theurge for a Bloodrager/Paladin build?
I thought it would be like level 15. At that point you could have some spells, and a good BAB.
And raging and smiting.... At the same time....
If you focused on CHA as the primary stat it might not actually be terrible!Maybe the alignment thing would be better if it as an antipaladin instead... Conductive weapons anyone?
Dragonchess Player put together a thread on using Mystic Theurge for martial classes here that you may be interested in. That being said, assuming you use both racial early entry, and Believer's boon for divine early entry, you can enter mystic theurge as soon as you have a caster level in Bloodrager and Paladin to progress, allowing you to take your first theurge level at level 9.
Just looked at the section on what comes after Mystic Theurge, and I am trying to come up with some more Prestige Classes to go to.
Core (all progressing arcane except as noted)
Arcane Archer: This is probably something due for an Errata, but technically the Imbue Arrow ability doesn't require that the spell you put on an arrow be arcane, just that it be an area spell: "At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted." Assuming no Errata to stop it, this means that you could potentially have some fun with imbuing arrows with divine spells, which might be fun even if you don't have the brokenly overpowered Anti-Magic Field available. Due to levels without spellcasting progression, you probably don't want more than 4 levels of this, and it would be best if you managed your early entry so that you only lost 1 level of arcane spellcasting in the process of entry into Mystic Theurge (so that what's left of your Magical Knack can at least compensate for caster level loss).
Eldritch Knight: This advances your arcane casting at 9/10 of full speed and makes you noticeably less squishy. If you are doing some kind of weird arcane full caster + martial divine caster mixture, it might even get this feature online in a reasonable amount of time.
Arcane Trickster: This has the same problem as for a normal Arcane Trickster build: You have to go to some trouble to get Sneak Attack +2d6, and the ways of doing this (including being Sandman Bard for enough levels) hinder your spellcasting/caster level progression, and you probably already had to use up your full Magical Knack allowance just to make up for caster level losses incurred getting into Mystic Theurge. On the other hand, if you did manage to pull it off, both your arcane and divine spells could benefit from another technicality that is probably due for an Errata (this time, in the Tricky Spells ability): "Starting at 5th level, an arcane trickster can cast her spells without their somatic or verbal components, as if using the Still Spell and Silent Spell feats. Spells cast using this ability do not increase in spell level or casting time. She can use this ability 3 times per day at 5th level and one additional time per every two levels thereafter, to a maximum of 5 times per day at 9th level. The arcane trickster decides to use this ability at the time of casting." If you get into levels epic enough to finish out Arcane Trickster, the same thing applies to Surprise Spells.
Loremaster (arcane or divine): You already got this one. I'll just add that Loremaster seemed like a really good Prestige Class in D&D 3.5, but in Pathfinder it seems at best just okay -- not because it got worse, but because other stuff (including Mystic Theurge itself) got better, while Loremaster stayed the same.
Dragon Disciple (arcane except for a certain set of Kobold builds, although now I can't find where Kobolds keep the exception): Thematically cool for a Sorcerous Mystic Theurge, but apart from advancing your Bloodline, it doesn't seem like it would synergize very well with the rest of what you are doing. Although this might need a rethink if you are doing some kind of weird martial Mystic Theurge mixture and the game goes into levels epic enough for you actually finish Mystic Theurge on one of these.
Extended (all progressing arcane or divine except as noted)
Agent of the Grave: You're probably not going to want this as a player character, but it would be an awesomely evil capstone for a Mystic Theurge master villain making the transition into unliving immortality, and with some builds can even complete before getting into epic levels.
Arcane Savant (originally Pathfinder Savant): You don't need this -- Mystic Theurge already gave you spells from multiple lists, and this Prestige Class just does a worse job of giving you a bit more of that.
Bloodmage (originally Bloatmage) (arcane): This is dangerous to the user regardless of whether or not you are a Mystic Theurge.
Collegiate Arcanist (originally Magambyan Arcanist) (arcane): Full speed spellcasting progression, but you already mix arcane and divine better than this Prestige Class does.
Cyphermage (arcane): You already got this covered.
Daivrat: You don't need Spell Fetch -- as a Mystic Theurge, you ARE the Spell Fetcher. And you lose a level of spellcasting/caster level progression while staying as squishy as you already are.
Darkfire Adept (orignally Blackfire Adept): This loses multiple levels of spellcasting/caster level progression while leaving you as squishy as you already are. That said, it does give you some nasty blasting capability, and eventually a way to break into Anti-Magic Fields and Dead Magic areas . . . but you are going to be well into epic levels before all this comes online. Plus, you literally cannot be Good. So this is probably best used as an extended capstone for a master villain who is going to be Mythic without using Mythic Rules.
Demoniac, Mystery Cultist, Evangelist, and Exalted: Part of the benefits of these Prestige Classes are getting early Boons for your Obedience; as somebody who has finished Mystic Theurge, if you got the qualifying Obedience feat, you have already gootten more than half way to getting all your Boons anyway, thus making these Prestige Classes less attractive.
Diabolist: Full speed spellcasting progression, but after you've come all this way without doing so, do you really want to pledge your soul to Hell?
Dissident of Dawn (originally Dawnflower Dissident) (divine): The abilities are spread a bit thin, but the good stuff is concentrated in the first 2 (for some purposes, 3 or 4) levels, and you get full speed spellcasting/caster level progression while getting to be slightly less squishy than before, so a dip in here is not a bad idea.
Divine Assessor (originally Balanced Scale of Abadar) (divine): By the time you have gotten this far, you can probably at least wing almost everything this does for you, and you don't need the extra level of lost spellcasting/caster level progression.
Divine Scion (divine): The abilities are spread a bit thin, but they are nice, and you get full speed spellcasting/caster level progression and get to be slightly less squishy than you were.
False Priest (originally Razmiran Priest) (arcane): Why would you want to fake divine casting when you can do the real thing?
Envoy of Balnace: Full-speed spellcasting progression and some pretty good abilities. If you are committed to being Neutral, this can work well.
Genie Binder: By the time you finished Mystic Theurge, you probably don't need anything that this Prestige Class gives you, and it also requires that you be not Good. At least it doesn't lose any spellcasting/caster level progression.
Gray Warden (originally Gray Gardener) (divine): Lost spellcasting/caster level progression. But it could serve as a thematically appropriate extended capstone for certain types of master villain.
Green Faith Acolyte (divine): The thematic idea is cool, but the implementation is a bomb, regardless of whether or not you are a Mystic Theurge, since you have slowed Animal Companion progression (even if you went with Domains as a Druid) and slowed Wildshape progression. If your primary class was Druid, better to just take more Druid levels. If the game actually goes epic enough for you to finish Mystic Theurge AND your Druid levels and still not be finished, you might as well start advancing your arcane levels.
Harrower: I really want to like this Prestige Class, because the idea is cool thematically, but the implementation is kludgey, regardless of whether or not you are a Mystic Theurge. At least it does not have any levels of lost spellcasting/caster level progression.
Hell Knight Enforcer (originally Hellknight Signifer): Some of the abilities are nice, although possibly redundant by the time you are getting them; you also get full speed spellcasting/caster level progression while becoming slightly less squishy. Nothing to write home about, but not too shabby either, if you have the personality to match the relevant organization. This would be a good extended capstone for a boss (probably master villain) of the Order of the Gate.
Holy Vindicator (divine): You already got this.
Inheritor's Crusader (divine, specifically Cleric or Paladin, although future updates might add Warpriest): Just about the only Prestige Class that offers spellcasting/caster level progression without hosing base classes that have inherently slower progression. It is very short, so you'll probably finish it before getting into epic levels. The capstone ability sure is cheesy, though.
Mage of the Third Eye (formerly Arclord of Nex) (arcane, specifically Wizard, or Arcanist with Arcane School ability): Full-speed spellcasting progression, and the other abilities are not terrible -- in fact, if you want to poach an Arcane School 1st level ability that is really nice but that you don't already have, such as Versatile Evocation from the Admixture sub-school of Evocation, this is quite gooda, although keep in mind that using a poached Arcane School ability requires extra uses of your native Arcane School ability, and this is worse if you started out as anything other than a Universalist Wizard (which is normally a disadvantage, but is made less disadvantageous by both this Prestige Class and Mystic Theurge itself). Some of the other abilities might be redundant by this time, though.
Nature Warden (divine): The extra abilities are not going to be enough to make up for lost spellcasting/caster level progression.
Planes Walker (formerly Riftwarden): The abilities this offers may be starting to get redundant by the time you get them, and are not going to be enough to make up for lost spellcasting/caster level progression.
Rage Prophet (divine, specifically Oracle): Barbarian levels aren't going to fit into a Mystic Theurge build; you COULD use Skald instead, but you probably wouldn't want to. And even if you did either of these, this Prestige Class gives additional lost spellcasting/caster level progression, and regardless of whether or not you are a Mystic Theurge, it DOESN'T progress your rounds of Rage per day, so it doesn't work very well (in fact, it seems in need of Errata).
Soul Warden (divine): Full-speed spellcasting progression, but heavily built upon Channeling, which you're already behind on, if you have any at all (although unlike most added Channeling, it does stack with any anti-Undead Channeling that you already have, so that's something).
Souleater (originally Souldrinker): Abilities spread a bit thin, and 2 levels of lost spellcasting/caster level progression; also, the abilities are partly geared for recharging your spellcasting, which is going to be less necessary for a Mystic Theurge; finally, after you've come all this way without doing so, do you really want to pledge your soul to Abbadon? Might be a decent extended capstone for a master villain that is Mythic without using Mythic rules, though.
Spherewalker: The abilities this offers will be largely redundant with what you already have by the time you get to this.
Sun Seeker (originally Brightness Seeker): Again, by the time you get this, the abilities seem like they would be partially redundant. Some of the abilities have a martial bent (which goes with the d10 HD with full BAB of this Prestige Class), which would not be useful to most Mystic Theurges, but might be useful to one of the weird martial Mystic Theurge mixtures. This Prestige Class also has slowed spellcasting/caster level progression, although at least it makes you noticeably less squishy.
Tattoed Mystic: Slowed spellcasting/caster level progression and leaving you as squishy as you were before? Pass.
Technomancer: Just 1 level of lost spellcasting/caster level progression in exchange for picking up technology that you don't already have? If you are in a position to take advantage of this, this could be awesome, but it will be very campaign-specific.
Umbral Agent (originally Umbral Court Agent): The multiple levels of lost spellcasting/caster level progression and the situational nature of the abilities offered by this Prestige Class make it less desirable. Still, it would be a decent extended capstone for the right type of master villain.
Veiled Illusionist (originally Mage of the Veil): Full-speed spellcasting/caster level progression, and some decent Illusion powers. If Illusion is your focus, this could be good.
Winter Witch (arcane, specifically Winter Witch archetype of Witch): If your primary class is the one that can be advanced by this, don't walk but run to get this, especially if you managed to enter Mystic Theurge with only 1 lost level of Witch spellcasting/caster level progression. It's that good. And keep in mind that none of the abilities of this Prestige Class state that they can only tie into your arcane spells of class abilities.
A very great deal that I have snipped to avoid wall of texting.
My apologies for the exceedingly long response time, but the holidays and RPG Superstar have kept my attention out of the discussion thread for some time. I'm afraid I'm not going to respond to all of the prestige classes you've referenced individually, for fear of wall of texting the thread even more than usual, but I have taken note of your thoughts, and I do intend on including most, if not all of them when I get to the relevant books.
I note that you reference several of these as originally having been named something else. I can assure you that they still have the 'original names' in the paizo publications. I think it is more accurate to say that they are referred to as something else on the d20pfsrd and elsewhere on the internet due to legality reasons involving the OGL, but the Bloatmage is still a Bloatmage in the pathfinder publications. That being said, I'll be referring to everything by the names they appear as in the books, rather than by their names on the pfsrd, as I'm working out of the pdfs and hardcovers directly.
I agree with a fair portion of what you said, particularly with your notes about the arcane archer. Despite the fact that we won't be taking levels of the arcane archer until fairly late in the game, it makes for a fairly competent theurge, and I intent to make a sample build dedicated to the concept. It is intriguing to see the sheer number of ways that it can play out and still excel.
I'd be interested to see the kobold exception where dragon disciple's are allowed to progress divine. I've been looking and have not seen something to that note, but it seems like a fascinating little quirk.
Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts and help out with the project. With such an option heavy class, I'm occasionally buried under what there is to cover, and every little bit of thought and input helps. I genuinely appreciate the effort.
As usual, I feel the need to apologize to those who were actively reading the guide at the time it was updated. The sudden reloading may have been problematic for some.
The holidays and RPG Superstar have kept me from focusing wholly on the sample builds, as I should have been. Progress has been made there, and I have one build completed in it's entirety. I don't want to post a single build alone, so I will hold off until there are more to provide greater context.
That being said, in the gaps between incessant voting and merriment, I have managed to cover a great deal of further material. This update includes all relevant material from an astonishing 27 books, including Andoran, Spirit of Liberty, Animal Archive, Bastards of Golarion, Blood of Angels, Blood of Fiends, Blood of the Elements, Blood of the Moon, Blood of the Night, Champions of Balance, Champions of Corruption, Champions of Purity, Dwarves of Golarion, Gnomes of Golarion, Humans of Golarion, Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea World Guide, Magical Marketplace, Orcs of Golarion, Paths of Prestige, People of the North, People of the River, People of the Sands, People of the Stars, Quests & Campaigns, Taldor, Echoes of Glory, The Undead Slayer's Handbook, and Varisia, Birthplace of Legends. Thanks to all who helped me wrangle them for perusing.
This has been a good update, it includes several new early entry tricks, like the Unusual Origin Feat for Gillmen from Bastards of Golarion, and two races that I was previously unaware of allowing early entry, which include Werecrocodile-kin Skinwalkers from Blood of the Moon and Lashunta from People of the Stars. The guide swells again to a mind-boggling 269 pages, showing just how long winded I can be about something I can enjoy. I do so hope it's all helpful.
Like it, hate it, or just tired of hearing me talk about it? I do enjoy feedback in all of it's forms. Especially if you disagree with me, and that even more so if you'd like to articulate why.
No sweat on the class names -- I just wasn't sure which source people would be looking at more when trying to cross-reference from your guide, so I thought I had better include both names for renamed Prestige Classes. I missed that Natural Alchemist is actually Thuvian Alchemist, though.
But I would bump Arcane Archer up to Green as long as you take no more than 4 levels and didn't lose more than 1 Arcane Caster Level when you were preparing for Mystic Theurge. (So make it Yellow/Green.)
* * * * * * * *
Here is a thread about an interesting distance support Witch build that doesn't currently have Mystic Theurge in it, but I think with a bit of tweaking (including switching out Scarred Witch Doctor + Hedge Witch for just Hedge Witch) could make good use of late entry Mystic Theurge levels (late entry required due to needing to get 8 and preferably 10 Hedge Witch levels; obviously not for PFS . . .).
Omg! such a big wall of text! but truly a wonderful thing to have at hand. Still feels a bit overwhelming tho. Which is why I would like to see the build section. especially interested in Arcanist + Cleric combos and how it would work VS Wizard + Cleric etc. Empyreal sorcerer + Cleric as SAD combo could also work wonders.
Sdie note: I'm joining a new game soon that will start from level 1 and go all the way up to 20. its going to be 2 player game (+DM). As the other player is playing Two-handed fighter I'm looking for build that fills up the holes in party and Mystic Theurge might be the best thing for it. (Arcanist with White Mage archetype was my other consideration)
No sweat on the class names -- I just wasn't sure which source people would be looking at more when trying to cross-reference from your guide, so I thought I had better include both names for renamed Prestige Classes. I missed that Natural Alchemist is actually Thuvian Alchemist, though.
But I would bump Arcane Archer up to Green as long as you take no more than 4 levels and didn't lose more than 1 Arcane Caster Level when you were preparing for Mystic Theurge. (So make it Yellow/Green.)
* * * * * * * *
Here is a thread about an interesting distance support Witch build that doesn't currently have Mystic Theurge in it, but I think with a bit of tweaking (including switching out Scarred Witch Doctor + Hedge Witch for just Hedge Witch) could make good use of late entry Mystic Theurge levels (late entry required due to needing to get 8 and preferably 10 Hedge Witch levels; obviously not for PFS . . .).
I very much like arcane archer, it's just rather difficult to build and play. I'm enjoying the sample build that I'm working on, though. It is an astonishingly capable counter-spellcaster, and looks to be capable of shutting down a wide variety of opponents with little risk of failure. It is, however, very difficult to build and play. Granted, we knew what we were getting into with the mystic theurge to begin with. I do agree with that change, though and I'll adjust that in the next edit. I have to admit that it was amusing to theorycraft using spell synthesis to fire a truestriked antimagic field at someone in one round, embed it in their leg, and reduce the level twenty wizard to a level twenty commoner.
That is a rather unique idea, and yet another place where they could benefit from familiar spell and some carefully aligned theurgery. If I find time between scheming sample builds, I may spend some time over there.
Omg! such a big wall of text! but truly a wonderful thing to have at hand. Still feels a bit overwhelming tho. Which is why I would like to see the build section. especially interested in Arcanist + Cleric combos and how it would work VS Wizard + Cleric etc. Empyreal sorcerer + Cleric as SAD combo could also work wonders.
Sdie note: I'm joining a new game soon that will start from level 1 and go all the way up to 20. its going to be 2 player game (+DM). As the other player is playing Two-handed fighter I'm looking for build that fills up the holes in party and Mystic Theurge might be the best thing for it. (Arcanist with White Mage archetype was my other consideration)
I'm hoping to get the first few sample builds online relatively soon. Starting with a few of the more straightforward and simple ones, with a few of the more technical ones included just to show what can shine. I'm hesitant to post them until I have at five or so done at all levels, simply so there is a clear variety visible. They should help reduce the wall of text mentality of the guide, as people can see just how capable they can be at each level, when compared to pure class casters of the same level.
Mystic Theurge may very well fill the gaps in that small party. High level games always present a unique challenge to prepare for, as you never know quite what will be coming down the line as you progress. If you know more precisely what you want, or have any specific questions, I'd be happy to help iron out details.
Well, knowing the DM and that he just finished DM'ing game of GURPS that lasted for 10 years (!!) Im in for a long and epic game. (in the end of the GURPS game the main character, along with his 200 demi-god allies, saved the universe from evil supreme god that was trying to destroy it to save it from even greater evil..) :D So its going to be epicsome game for sure.
But I also know that its not going by the book. not even close. pathfinder and its features are just the basics for the game. everything else is homebrew. Roleplaying will be big or even the biggest part of it. Everything in your character must make sense. no level dipping or strange half-dragon half-celestial tieflings with some 3rd party feat that makes him able to cast Heal on level 3.
Well, knowing the DM and that he just finished DM'ing game of GURPS that lasted for 10 years (!!) Im in for a long and epic game. (in the end of the GURPS game the main character, along with his 200 demi-god allies, saved the universe from evil supreme god that was trying to destroy it to save it from even greater evil..) :D So its going to be epicsome game for sure.
But I also know that its not going by the book. not even close. pathfinder and its features are just the basics for the game. everything else is homebrew. Roleplaying will be big or even the biggest part of it. Everything in your character must make sense. no level dipping or strange half-dragon half-celestial tieflings with some 3rd party feat that makes him able to cast Heal on level 3.
That sounds splendid! I would communicate the basic ideas of the character to your GM, see what he recommends, and then fit your character to his rules. Open communication is always the best route, especially for a game that looks to be as lovely as this one. If he allows it, I've known several players that qualified by adjusting the default races using the race builder rules in the Advanced Race Guide, and there is a third party theurge base class from Kobold Press that is much more straightforward than some of these. It will certainly fly over better if he discourages level dipping very strongly. I differ slightly from him in attitude, I believe. I tend to maintain a motto that the rules should never get in the way of your character's story, and encourage all manner of seemingly blasphemous level dipping if it gets the player's the mechanics they need to fit the rules to the character that they wanted. Granted, without that mindset, I likely wouldn't have enjoyed writing a guide for such an option laden class as the theurge.
Knowing the other GURPS games I've run/played in, and the people involved in them, you're in for one heck of a ride.
Yeah. I thought about the 3rd party theurge too. Might be the simplest answer. But as you said, I gotta ask from the DM. And before that I gotta come up with a idea of WHY I wanna play theurge and what kind of personality (s)he will have etc. or the DM might just ditch the idea.
(ugh, too tired. gotta think about all this tomorrow and on the weekend)
Great work on the guide, and very timely, since I've just started playing a Mystic Theurge in Rise of the Runelords.
Just a couple of comments.
For advancing past Mystic Theurge, Exalted is excellent, given that (unlike evangelist) it doesn't lose another casting level. I don't think you can use it to advance MT past level 10 - after all, it's a 10 level class: what's to advance? You could, of course, use it on your original class. But one other trick you might like to consider is using it (or similar prestige classes) to advance MT itself. The level 10 MT capstone is very, very nice, but the only other thing you get (Combined spell) is kind of underwhelming. There are times when it will be very useful, but most of the time, you're likely to just use your spells as-is. Using - say - Exalted to advance MT gives you several great class powers, a better BAB and hit dice ... and RAW still advances your dual casting progression.
The other thing is that your guide is very focused on being the ultimate caster, which means getting casting on both arcane and divine sides as high as possible. But another option is to use MT as an augment to one class. By using the SLA method of entry, you essentially qualify for the cost of 1 level. Sure, you'll never excel in your second class, if you focus on the primary one, but it opens up a bunch of options.
My current build is a combat MT with Magus/Cleric. The focus is on Magus, so the build stub is Magus 7/ Cleric 1/MT4/Exalted5 (the GM has already informed us that we will be finishing the adventure path at lvl 17). This build includes most of the good things about Magus - armoured casting, spell strike, arcana - but also shores up some weaknesses (limited number of spells, low HP for a front liner) with 6th level spells on both divine and arcane sides. Not as powerful as a full caster agreed, but just as viable - and more fun, I think - than a straight magus. The additional number of spells more than makes up for the loss of things like greater spell recall, and...
That is very true, I have been exceptionally biased in that role, although there have been others discussing using it for more specific side roles, such as DragonChess Player's Bloodrager/Paladin/theurge builds. If you wouldn't mind, could you send me some more specifics of the build you're using. I'd be very interested in seeing it, and I may include a variation on it as one of the sample builds as an option for those who aren't looking for just casting the highest spells as often as possible. Thanks for the feedback.
It is also amusingly timely that I just finished GMing Rise of the Runelords. I promise there will be no spoilers forthcoming here.
{. . .}
I'd be interested to see the kobold exception where dragon disciple's are allowed to progress divine. I've been looking and have not seen something to that note, but it seems like a fascinating little quirk. {. . .}
Found it: Kobold racial feat Scaled Disciple.
Prerequisite(s): Ability to spontaneously cast divine spells, kobold.Benefit(s): You gain a +1 bonus to your caster level when casting spells included in the dragon domain* or subdomains. Your spontaneous divine spellcasting qualifies in place of arcane casting for the dragon disciple prestige class, and you may increase spellcasting in your spontaneous divine class as you progress in dragon disciple levels. Add the bonus spells gained from the blood of dragons ability to those you can cast as divine spells.
(I didn't include the corresponding Errata, although if you find a way to get the Domain and Spontaneous Domain Casting, it could actually apply.)
Eldritch scion 20/ paladin 20
eldritch scion 20/ dual blooded sorcerer(orc, dragon)1 paladin 19
zen monk 20/ ranger 20
master summoner 20/ bard 20
Wrong thread :| sorry
dum da di da dam. so waiting for updates :)
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Here's a whacky Mystic Theurge inspired by this guide. 'Thunderstomp' Ben ignores half the advice in the guide by going in an unexpected direction, yet does so within the context of the guide. The OP and guide author suggested I post it here. I'll eschew posting the detailed character history.
'Thunderstomp' Ben's life goal is to infiltrate 'civilization' for neutral nature goddess Fandarra, study it, and discover weaknesses that can eventually destroy civilization and restore a state of nature. A sort of 'Deep Green Resistance'. He never tells anyone this, of course. Thus the unconventional Trickery domain.
'Thunderstomp' Ben is a Strength-based Mystic Theurge (laugh now and get it out of your system!) for PFS who specializes in elemental battlefield control. Using the Forge of Combat metaphor Ben is a primary Anvil. Ben locks down enemies by catching them within multiple no-save areas of effect. His trick is to reliably cast three Area of Effect (AoE) spells per round: one as a Standard, one as a Move, and one as a Swift Action. No single spell is especially powerful, but they have terrific synergy and DC barely matters. Ben is most effective at low and mid levels, before most foes can fly. As is, Ben requires quite a few Paizo books for PFS play.
Ben's 'Thunderstomp' ability is why he distributes Featherstep Slippers and a Wand of Featherstep to his allies. It's really just a Cleric's negative variant channel (Earth) that creates difficult terrain, fluffed as a stomp.
'Thunderstomp' Ben is a Human Seperatist Cleric-1 of Fandarra/Witch-3/Theurge-X
ST14+2 DEX14 CON12 INT13(+1 at 4th) WIS13(+1 at 8th) CHA12
Domains: Plant(Growth) and Trickery (gives Mystic Theurge divine early entry)
Feats: Combat Reflexes (Human), Two Traits? (1st), Rime Spell (3rd), Quick Channel (5th), Toughness? (7th), Superior Summons? (9th), Divine Interference (11th)
Traits: Heirloom weapon for polearm proficiency and an actual Masterwork Transformation heirloom weapon, Fate's Favored because luck, the Two Traits feat gives Magical Lineage (Ice Slick) & Temple Guard for +1 to hit on AoOs with a polearm
Hexes: Slumber is capped at low DC 14, but still useful (Witch-1), Swamp's Grasp (capped at three 10'x10' squares) (Witch-2) is an important primary means to make muddy Difficult Terrain.
Witch's Familiar: Compsagnathus gives +4 initiative and never shows itself in a dangerous situation
At 10th level Ben will cast spells as a 9th level Witch and a 7th level Cleric. INT and WIS will be sufficient until 10th level, at which point a +2 INT headband suffices through PFS retirement. Perhaps try to get a combined INT & WIS headband.
On a good combat round Ben casts three area effect spells, personally takes several 20' reach AoOs at prone, entangled targets, and feeds multiple AoOs to allies.
Ben's self-appointed role is to configure the battlefield and debuff enemies so his side dominates from the start. He routinely casts three spells on important combat rounds. Which particular three spells may vary. His preferred way to debuff a single powerful foe is to catch it in multiple overlapping no-save area effect spells.
Targets caught in all three overlapping Areas of Effect take a little [negative] & a little [Cold] damage, are entangled for 2 rounds & thus move at half speed, difficult terrain costs double movement, are on a patch of slippery icy grease, possibly prone (only outcome affected by Reflex save), and find themselves menaced by a giant with a polearm.
Ben controls the battlefield several different ways: he makes difficult terrain two different complementary ways, he no-save entangles foes with rime metamagic, and he threatens a huge zone with his polearm. Foes must move slowly and are denied the 5' step in difficult terrain, while Ben and his allies move freely with Featherstep. Ben uses his superior 25' reach to threaten immobilized foes with a polearm, then whack them when they inevitably provoke AoOs. Ben prefers targets unable to strike back at all. Ben also casts a variety of Arcane and Divine offensive, defensive, support, and utility spells.
Ben has these spell options:
Standard Action: Whatever spell or action seems appropriate. Ben's specialty spell is 2nd level Rimed Ice Slick. Rimed Ice Slick works mechanically just like Grease with the addition of a little damage and two rounds of no-save entanglement. Both Ben's methods of making difficult terrain, 'Thunderstomp' and Swamp's Grasp, can fill a Standard Action.
Move Action: The Copycat ability, from the Trickery domain, provides a nice one-round defensive option thrice per day. At 5th level Quick Channel 'Thunderstomp' comes on line as a move action twice per day, allowing Ben to thoroughly configure and debuff an important battlefield on Round One.
Swift Action: Enlarge Person via the Plant(Growth) subdomain. This gives 20' reach, or 25' reach if Longarm is active. Ben uses this spell when he is most likely to get AoOs, which is usually Round One. Prone, entangled foes stuck on an ice slick in difficult terrain are quite likely to provoke AoOs! This spell, combined with Longarm, helps Ben threaten a 60' diameter area of effect.
At 5th level he'll be able to do this Round One battlefield control opening sequence:
* take a 5' step to within 25' of the target(s) (30' if buffed with Longarm)
Ben casts his favorite second level spell, Rimed Ice Slick. A sudden spray of water mist instantly hardens into a 5' radius icy burst that freezes solid. Affected targets take [1D6+3] HP cold damage and must make a DC 14 Reflex save for half damage and to avoid falling prone. If an affected target took any cold damage it is also Entangled for two rounds by the rime effect. The ice slick naturally persists for minutes, is mechanically just like a grease spell, and can not be dispelled.
* [Spell the First] as a Standard Action, cast Rimed Ice Slick (2nd level spell via Magical Lineage) under the target(s). It's mechanically just like Grease, but with the addition of a little [cold] damage and two rounds of no-save entanglement. It really doesn't matter much whether or not the foe saves. The target is quite likely to provoke an AoO from anyone who threatens it, can only attack someone stupid enough to go near, and isn't moving far any time soon.
'Thunderstomp' Ben invokes the stone giant earth mother, Fandarra, and stomps the ground. A shock wave of earth-charged negative energy harms everyone in 30' for about 1D3 HP, no save. Rocky spikes and jagged fissures fill the area affected, making everything difficult terrain. Difficult terrain fades after one minute.
* ['Spell' the Second] 'thunderstomp' as a Move action, Quick Channel negative variant channel earth (from neutral earth goddess Fandarra) to create 1 minute of difficult terrain within 30', and incidentally inflict about 1D3 HP damage to friend and foe alike. Equip allies with a combination of Featherstep Slippers & Wand of Featherstep. Movement cost is doubled, and the 5' step forbidden, for anyone without Featherstep. Apologize to allies injured by 'incidental' damage.
Ben invokes Fandarra's power to elicit new Growth and swiftly becomes Large. He stands nearly 13' tall and his longarmed polearm threatens a 60' diameter. Ends at the start of Ben's next turn.
* [Spell the Third] Swift Action enlarge person, possibly growing 5' toward the target, to threaten the [possibly prone] entangled target stuck in difficult terrain 15-25' away. Even a Mystic Theurge can hit a prone, entangled target.
* Ben's AoOs are pretty good for a squishy wannabe Mystic Theurge caster, striking for about 17 HP at 4th level. He gets three AoOs, or only two when large. A Fortuitous Weapon is in his future, for a free extra AoO. By the time Ben's melee ability is obsolete he will be a capable full caster nearing PFS retirement.
Buffed fourth level large Ben strikes at the foe with his large heirloom masterwork cold iron lucerne hammer [D20+7] for [3D6+8]. [+1 to hit if it's an AoO, foe may be prone and/or entangled] Active buffs: Divine Favor
* If a target slipped on the ice it draws a prone, entangled AoO when it stands up.
* If a target moves at all it draws an entangled AoO, since several different effects block the 5' step.
* Ben hopes others will pile on this AoO bandwagon, but that will vary between tables. Allies who can fish for AoOs will clean up.
Targets caught in all three overlapping Areas of Effect take a little [negative] & a little [Cold] damage, are entangled for 2 rounds & thus move at half speed, difficult terrain costs double movement, are on a patch of slippery icy grease, possibly prone (only outcome affected by Reflex save), and find themselves menaced by a giant with a polearm.
Ben is built to fit his character history, so some things are non-optimal.
* If his STR drops from 16 to 12 he is still 70% as effective with a polearm. Average damage per hit drops from 17 HP to 14 HP, and hitting at all becomes more difficult. This let's you pump INT to 18, for better spell DCs. This would probably be the stronger build. I just like the idea of playing a Mystic Theurge who starts with two 13s in casting prime requisites.
* Ben has lots of room to shift around feats. Only Combat Reflexes and Rime Spell are needed for the basic concept. All the feats ending in a ? are not essential to the basic approach.
* Play around with different Witch Hexes. Avoid ones that must scale with class level. Ben's choices are perhaps not optimal. For example, Slumber Hex is an awful choice for a Mystic Theurge, but Ben wants it anyway as a way to conserve resources. A rational optimizer might go for the Fortune, Misfortune, and Cackle hexes as the best choices for a Mystic Theurge, but those are not for Ben.
*Ben's other hex, Swamp's Grasp, is an essential tool for creating Difficult Terrain. Note the 90' range. Note the unlimited use. Note that the three 10' squares need not be contiguous. This can even be used out of combat to prepare a possible battlefield. This is your tool to create multiple precise small patches of difficult terrain. Force foes to provoke AoOs, while your allies have firm footing from Featherstep.
* The stupid squishy caster is trying to hit things with a stick. What an idjut.
* Every foe with a missile weapon will target the spell casting giant with 25' reach.
* Armor Class is a problem. Wands seem to be the best option.
* Unbuffed defenses are weak
* The Wizard spell list probably offers a bit more to the Mystic Theurge than the Witch list.
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^I am totally stealing this idea (or at least a modified version thereof) when I get an opportunity.
Notes: Growth Subdomain also gives Enlarge Person if you want enlargement that lasts longer than the Subdomain's 1st level ability. Still, the Witch spell list also has it, so this isn't essential.
Outside PFS, if you were a Half-Orc, you could be a Scarred Witch Doctor to make Constitution your Witch spellcasting and Hex DC modifier, and then you wouldn't be so squishy. Put on the right headgear to go with your mask, and you could even look like a cross between a substitute for a WarCraft III Tauren Chieftain and a WarCraft III/TFT Shadow Hunter.
Rules As Written, Heirloom Weapon is a risky trait, because if you lose your weapon, you are permanently deprived of the benefits of this trait (and you even have to deduct the standard cost of the weapon from your starting wealth). Outside PFS (since you will have more level wiggle room), it might be not a bad idea to take a 1 level dip in Urban Barbarian (Controlled Rage to boost Constitution) or Unbreakable Fighter (2 free feats that you will probably want, of which Diehard makes you less squishy and even Endurance has potential use) to get your weapon proficiency. Alternatively, a Cleric of some other deity using a similar concept might have a polearm as favored weapon, although I can't think of one off the top of my head (for instance, Shelyn has the glaive, but won't let you channel negative energy).
With respect to the magical trait: Magical Knack would be a good alternative to Magical Lineage -- this would bump Rimed Ice Slick up to 3rd level, but then on the other hand you wouldn't be so dependent upon just 1 spell, and you would compensate for most of the Caster Level (unfortunately not spell progression) delay in your build, especially if doing the Barbarian or Fighter dip. I didn't have time to read the whole Forge of Combat that you linked, but I did notice that the early part of this warns against being a 1 trick pony.
Wizard doesn't give you Hexes. Not sure if some Shaman Spirit would give you the Swamp Grasp Hex while giving you the spells you need as a single-classed alternative to this build (I don't think any Shaman Spirit or Archetype give you Channel, though, so that probably hoses this variant).
(Also, assuming that this is the Long Arm you were referencing?)
I am building a Mystic Theurge for an upcoming campaign (Reign of Winter) that I will be playing in.
So far, Male aasimar (archon-blooded) Cleric 1.
Trickery domain, so other than the required Knowledge skills, both Arcane and Divine spell requirements are covered.
S:11, D:14, C:14, I:12, W:18, cH:10
Will take a 2nd level in Cleric, then Empryeal Sorcerer, then MT and finish off whatever levels are left with Cleric. So at 13th level for spells he is effectively cleric 12 / sorcerer 11 with a 21 or better wisdom via level bumps.
He will be a pure caster, ie. back line character.
Couple of questions and some advice seeking:
1) What should the 2nd domain be? (he worships the good pantheon)
2) What feats should he take and when? (think the spell penetration line, spell focus line, improved initiative, ????)
Also, I really don't want to get into summoning unless absolutely the only way to go.
thanks, -- david
Magda Luckbender: Interesting build! I like it. :)
Winter Witch (the PrC, not the Archetype) could offer some good abilities to the build. Its too bad that some of the better abilities don't come online until midway into the PrC but they are both thematic and help add to the schtick of the mechanics. Actually, the Archetype could be helpful as well with limited levels. Normally I wouldn't suggest putting too many levels into something other than Mystic Theurge once you qualify for it but this might be the exception that really makes me interested in it.
^Keep in mind that even though it isn't explicit, currently you need the Winter Witch archetype to get the Ice Magic class feature required to enter the Winter Witch prestige class. I thought that maybe they'd come out with a Sorcerer Bloodline that has Ice Magic as part of its Arcana (this would be cool, and for that matter I'd like to see a Sorcerous Witch archetype), but I have yet to see one.
You know, that is true. It kind of makes you wonder why they didn't just make it a full archetype rather than a PrC that you need to have one specific archetype for.
{. . .}
WITH that said, in 3.5, for EPIC Theurge the levels after 10 alternated between advancing Arcane and divine. As it was written Theurge sucked at epic.
{. . .}
I remember that too. Made Epic Mystic Theurge kind of pointless -- you could get the same result but somewhat better by just alternating Epic Cleric and Epic Wizard (or whatever) levels, and even that method wouldn't be the best way to go about it . . . .
I'm thinking about a "Lucky Theurge" build - witch for Fortune, Cackle, maybe Misfortune, and cleric for Bit of Luck and Fate inquisition.
Do witches make good theurges? I know their spell list isn't always considered their strong suit. And would Misfortune be worth it without the scaling DC?
Make sure you buy Headband of Fortune's Favor sooner rather than later.
Oh dang, this is a great item. I'd love to put it on an Archaeologist Bard in particular.
I don't know if this is the right place for this question. But I suspect its a place where there are knowledgeable creatures who will know the answer, which makes it the absolute right place in one sense.
The question is, is there an equivalent ruling to that allowing SLA to count for fulfilling the pre-reqs for Mystic Theurge for innate psionic powers and Cerebremancer.
And if the answer is no, do people agree with me that the same logic should apply?
If this works, or your GM says it can, there are two races in the Psionics unleashed book capable of manifesting a 2nd lvl power at lvl 1. Half Giants and [psionic] Duergar.
Now there is a trait allowing you to take a racial trait you are not. Can't recall its name at present. Most GMs I know won't allow it, but if your GM is more benign or you can convince your GM, bribery, sexual favours, threats, whatever it takes, to allow it you can fulfill the pre-reqs for both PCs by level 3.
You can come up with a mystic theurge idea on steroids like this.
You start as a [psionic] Duergar with the [say]Tiefling SLA. you pump your wis to the max, obviously.
You take your first lvls as-
1 Cleric, Trickery Domain
2 Vitalist
3 Empyreal Sorcerer
4-13 Cerebremancer
14-20 Mystic Theurge
At lvl 20 you have 18 caster lvls as sorcerer, 8 as cleric and 11 manifesting levels as a vitalist.
That is real good power as a sorcerer with tremendous depth, flexibility and efficiency for your main stat. You can reverse around the order of Cerebremancer and Mystic Theurge as desired, getting more and earlier divine spells. Also, you can use both divine and arcane items w/o a skill or roll.
You are, however, stuck with having sorcerer as the primary class.
Thoughts?
Since there are no psionic rules in Pathfinder, there are no rulings pertaining to them in the Pathfinder FAQs. If you are referring to the DreamScarred Press rules for psionics, those are the folks you would have to ask for anything "official" - which would still not be Pathfinder-official as it is all third-party.
As always, it would be up to your GM.
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I'm curious, do domain spells count as being able to cast a 2nd level arcane? Specifically if you take the Magic or Arcane domain?
Was thinking of doing a Kitsune enchant focused build, but it looks like normally the soonest you could get into this with a cleric/sorc build would be at level 6 (cleric 1/sorc 4/MT1). However if you can use the domain spell from magic or arcane as your 2nd level arcane spell you could get into it at level 5 (cleric 3, sorc 1, MT 1).
Then this also free's your feats up and an extra domain instead of having to take Fate inquisition (was planning to worship Nethys)
Although I am starting to wonder if the +1 DC for enchant is worth it or if I should just switch to Aasimar to get into MT at 4th. Any thoughts?
domain spells arent SLAs, though they might count if you leveled in the appropriate class (cleric im assuming) to have them granted to you (since at that point you could cast it, presumably).
some domains (such as trickery? and the fate inquisition) grant SLA's of the appropriate levels to qualify for early entry though.
also, iirc domain-granted arcane spells are still counted as divine, since they were given by a divine source.
Hey there !
I'm working on a MT build for PFS Core and I would have some questions and this seems to be the right place (plus it will bump the thread which it really deserves).
Half Elf, Cleric of Calistria 1/Fey Sorcerer 4 / MT X
STR 8 / DEX 14 / CON 13 +1@8 / INT 12 / WIS 14 / CHA 17 (15+2) +1@4
Domains: Trickery & either Charm or Luck
Feats: I guess combat casting & Improved Initiative are a must plus Spell Focus/Grater (Enchantment)
Traits: Magic Knack (Cleric), & either Reactionary or Charming
Basically the build revolves around Sorcerer for Save or Suck with enchantment & Cleric spells for utility.
I'm still working on the RP of the character, which I'd like more on the spy side of Calistria thant the Lust side :p
So my questions are :
-Does it really add much than going straight Fey Sorcerer ?
-Any recommended tweaks about the stats, feats, traits ?
-About skills, apart from Kn Arcana & Religion 3 what would you recommend ? I don't think UMD is required as I can cast both Cleric & Sorcerer spells ?
Well any hints & tips would be welcome !
It'd probably work as long as the class feature doesn't specify that it is only for arcane or divine spellcasting.
From a quick perusal of CRB, Loremaster and Arcane Trickster do not specify, while Arcane Archer, Dragon Disciple, and Eldritch Knight are specific.
It may be the case that the phrasing was simply omitted because the class requirements were indicative of the intent for the prestige class.
In essence, it is my opinion that you could be something along the lines of :
Arcane Class X/Divine Class Y/Mystic Theurge 1/Arcane Trickster 9
effectively being X+10 Arcane, and Y+10 Divine in terms of spellcasting.
Either way (for completeness in answer), acquiring 11+ advancement (or equivalent) in Mystic Theurge requires GM adjudication, and will not generally be a thing in PFS.
I cant think of anything broken about these options that would cause problems... but I haven't dug deep enough into the various additional references to be sure that no problems would crop up
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@ Kendaan: Looks like a fine start. The trade off is obvious, you lose a level of sorcerer progression for a significantly expanded utility list.
That means you'll start casting 2nd level spells while the straight wizard starts casting 3rd level spells.
While that is a hard trade, it's the only real drawback in the build you have shown... and it looks like its something you've come to accept as you posted on the MT thread.
I'd try to have some back up options for undead/plant types (or other things that ignore most mind-affecting effects) -- but that would be true for a straight sorcerer enchanter build.
Perception is pretty key, as are at least one talky skill (Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate) and Sense Motive. You'll probably want at least a grounding in Spellcraft/Knowledge skills. I would also likely eschew UMD as you have suggested.
As far as feats go, I'd also consider Spell Penetration at higher levels... Spells like Dominate Person and Lesser Geas offer SR, and will be major contenders for your later PFS career (it ends around lvl 12, right? That would be maxed out at LVL 5 spells for the character shown, obtained at the second to last level of feasible play)
For bonus points, you could make it an Arcane X/Divine Y/Mystic Theurge 1/Arcane Trickster 1/Evangelist 10 (aligned class Arcane Trickster)
Sure, you'd lose 1 more level of your main spellcasting class, but you'd fully advance 2 prestige classes and practically have all of MT... (i.e. existence of evangelist indicates that it is not entirely far-fetched that simultaneous advancement could be intended)
Problems depend heavily on the build. Just looking at the levels doesn't really say a whole lot on the quality of 'brokenness'.
Offhand, I don't see any special interaction with the available options (Arcane Trickster and Loremaster) that would cause lots of low level spells to be a deal breaker from a GM standpoint. That said, as I mentioned before, I haven't dug down too deeply to verify that nothing could be done.
I do not think advancing two prestige classes simultaneously is necessarily broken. You are still making a trade-off, it just might be less of a trade-off than it otherwise could have been.
(Note - Arcane Trickster requires a sneak attacking multiclass as well, and Loremaster... I don't think I'll be able to convince myself that it contributes to any legitimate discussion of broken (read - overpowered) features in any fashion)
My players are going to have to make a really good case for any build that allows them to gain, for example, two arcane spellcasting levels for one level advanced with their character. Even worse if they are trying for two arcane and a divine or two arcane and two divine. (I haven't studied the builds you are discussing, but that's the intent that I'm reading into the questions.)
Obviously, MT grants an arcane and a divine, but that's the point of that whole PrC. Combining it with other PrC strictly to try to double up benefits, if possible, is simple unintended consequences in my mind. RAW or not, it's probably going to get squashed at my table.
Goodnight, sweet Mystic Theurge. Early entry has been removed from the FAQ.
I thought it was added. Can you link that?
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
No but seriously, good night Mystic Theurge, I enjoyed when you and Eldritch Knight got to be dusted off of the first time in, well, ever. But the honeymoon is over. I'm genuinely sorry for all the work you put in, OP. :(
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Sorry OP, this is a bunch of work undone for no good reason.
We should make a memorial list thread and add in all of the grandfathered Mystic Theurges to be an inspiration and a solemn warning to future generations.
Just happened today.Goodnight, sweet Mystic Theurge. Early entry has been removed from the FAQ.I thought it was added. Can you link that?
Aww. That's a shame.
Oh well. *shrug*
Just happened today.Goodnight, sweet Mystic Theurge. Early entry has been removed from the FAQ.I thought it was added. Can you link that?
Time to random post symbols to represent expletives or yet another dumb FAQ. I'm willing to bet this is because of the Evangelist and its creator(who never liked early entry despite it making viable PRCs).
You could still make a powerful high-level caster who uses normal entry, then takes one level of MT, then takes PrC levels that advance MT casting. That's 2 classes worth of spellcasting plus one full prestige class for every level after 7.
With normal entry MT loses a lot of it's appeal. There are too many "just get through it" levels before you get to finally come into your own. Also, you've got to wait until half way through the game (assuming you play to 20).
Just doesn't sound like fun to me.