Lots of of comments today. I'll try to get to everybody before the game tonight.
@Angy Wiggles:
I want to thank you a lot for this guide. I've had in my mind for a while now the idea of a Female Kitsune specialist in Enchantment magic and Face work. I envisioned her as the kind of character that people fell all over themselves to do her bidding both in and out of combat (metaphorically, of course, I doubt it would ever be that effective in game play). There were so many good Enchantment spells in both Divine and Arcane that I didn't know how to proceed at all, and was thinking the idea was completely untenable. Your guide has given me a little bit more hope in making it work, especially since our group uses a 25 point buy, making starting stats easier to work with.
Knowing that the Kitsune isn't one of the optimum builds for this, how would you suggest I proceed? The idea I had in mind sounded a lot like your sample "Most Interesting Man in the World" idea, but it was listed in the "A" mechanic (both race and class acceleration), and my Kitsune idea would have to use the "C" mechanic (only Divine class acceleration). I was thinking Cleric/Sorcerer, with Sorcerer as prime due to the Cha optimization from the race. However Empyreal would allow the Sorcerer spells to use Wis, so that would help with only needing to optimize one stat, but I still benefit from Cha for Face skills. However, I'm also interested in cross-blooded with Fey & Infernal for the DC bonuses to two different Enchantment sub-schools that stack with the Kitsune's race based DC increase.
Anyway, was interested in your opinion on the idea from a viability standpoint.
Edit:
Forgot to ask. Is there anything out there that allows Divine casters to use the Cha stat for DC's and such? If not, I'm kind of surprised; one would think that there's a place for an evangelical type priest focusing on proselytizing people who would rely more on the ability to persuade (Cha) than on wisdom.
For what you're considering I would avoid the crossblooded archetype, as that delays our entry to higher level spells pretty severely. Although you do have several different viable options you can consider.
The first option would be to stick with your racial stat bonuses in order to best take advantage of the increased DCs. This build would focus almost exclusively on charisma and dual class oracle and sorcerer, using Believer's Boon to obtain the trickery domain and meet your divine sla requirement for entry. Since you don't appear to be playing PFS, that shouldn't be an issue. This will work well as you can focus entirely on a single stat and will have an easier time increasing the DCs on your spells. This will allow you to throw most of your points into a single stat and then distribute the rest more evenly. I'd recommend con and/or dex, as once people start realizing what you're doing, you will become a prime target.
The second option that I would recommend would be to invest partially in wisdom and go cleric/sorcerer with the evangelist archetype. This has the advantage of not falling into any gray areas in the rules, as well as being able to spontaneously cast a number of enchantment spells in place of cure spells. This will allow you to take advantage of the cleric's versatility, while still fulfilling your primary role with both classes. This is actually how I intended to further flesh out the sample build in the guide when those get posted. In this case, you can go empyreal if you feel that you can't afford to split stats, but with a 25 point buy, you may feel comfortable doing so. If you split stats, I'd recommend either impossible or serpentine, allowing you to use your enchanting effects on creatures that would otherwise be immune.
In both cases, pumping your DCs is going to be your most valuable benefit. Rods of thanatopic, persistent, and bouncing are going to be favorites of yours.
Angry, would you (or any of the other Mystic Theurge experts on this thread) be willing to help out this kitsune mystic theurge who is looking for help? There are so many details involved in making this prestige class work that I don't feel I can provide good advice to him.
Hmm
I will take a look and see what advice I can offer, certainly.
(I'm assuming the Oracle still needs the Divine Focus where required)
Oracles actually don't need to provide divine focuses. Last paragraph on the prd under the oracle's spells feature "Unlike a cleric, an oracle need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components." bolding mine.
Angry wiggles: why don't you mention boon companion for familiars? It is a decent feat in that it pushes the rest of your familiar progression forward by 4 levels. Can also work for animal companions, but is probably a trap option in this specific case.
Female Kitsune specialist in Enchantment magic and Face work
Anyway, was interested in your opinion on the idea from a viability standpoint.
Kitsune also have racial sorc FCB of "Add +1/4 to the DC of enchantment spells". IMO for focused enchantment specialist straight sorc is better than theurge.
Thanks for the advice, Mr. Wiggles.
My original thought was Oracle/Sorcerer, but after reading your guide, I leaned towards having Cleric be the lesser class for the wider range of spells and synergy between having a prepared and spontaneous casting class.
If I do opt for Oracle, do you have a suggested Curse/Mystery combination? On a quick examination, none of them really jump out at me as being no-brainer. Deaf is kind of interesting for allowing the character to effectively have Eschew Materials and Silent Spell for free. If I started with the Birthmark trait (I'm assuming the Oracle still needs the Divine Focus where required) and later took Still spell, very few things could prevent casting easily. I'd have to come up with an interesting way to be the charming face of the party with being deaf. Maybe I could talk to the GM about using a Language slot to be able to read lips, or something. Zefig's suggestions earlier were pretty funny, too.
I'm fond of Deaf as well, for mechanical reasons, but Legalistic works well, particularly in the flavor for an enchanter. It reminds me of several characters where they build a reputation where other people start to become terrified of simply allowing them to talk, for fear of having their mind bent about.
After much work and some deliberation. I have decided to post this here.
This is still very much a work in progress, but I have been assured that everyone will get more use out of an incomplete guide now than a complete guide several months from now.
Blurring the Lines for Arcanes and Divines - A Guide to the Mystic Theurge
I will be continuing to update this fairly regularly, and comments will be made here indicating what changes were made. This link will always go to the most recent version.
Please use this thread for discussion of the guide, it's content, and builds based off of it's content. I hope that this proves useful to you all.
Angry Wiggles, you have written a brilliant and very thorough guide. I've skimmed through it twice and haven't seen mention of using a familiar to deliver touch heal and buff spells, one of my favorite theurge tactics. I typically make a wizard/cleric theurge with summoning feats (augment summoning, superior summoning, etc. which apply to both classes) and prepare a few touch cure spells in arcane slots to deliver through my familiar.
The ACG has rings that add spells to summon monster lists, it would be cool to have an addendum discussing how to capitalize on things like sacred summons and summoning rings.
One of the sample builds I'm working on now is dedicated to using said rings to abuse an absurdly broad summon list and I've been covering these rings more fully in the equipment section. I'll go through and add more notes to the familiars section to ensure that using them to deliver buff spells gets more notice, I didn't realize I'd skimmed over that, thank you for the note.
Somewhere you may want to add a compare/contrast with the spell sage, which is a full wizard archetype that lets you cast from other spell lists, including clerics and druids.
I was certain that I had, but it looks like the hard drive crash may have cost me updates on a number of ACG archetypes across several classes during that last update. Time to go back, review, and rewrite everything that is missing. This may take several moments...
Angry wiggles: why don't you mention boon companion for familiars? It is a decent feat in that it pushes the rest of your familiar progression forward by 4 levels. Can also work for animal companions, but is probably a trap option in this specific case.
I agree completely. I think the biggest benefit of this feat is quickly gaining the ability to speak with your familiar, to take advantage of it's ability to roll on knowledge checks. It is not covered yet largely because I hadn't gotten to covering that book yet. This is an absurdly option heavy class, and even in a 200 page guide, I have only covered roughly ten books with any sort of thoroughness or depth. After the review to correct the issues brought on by the recent hard drive failure, and the introduction of several sample builds, I will be turning my eye outwards and introducing new books and their options.
My apologies for the sudden spike in delays between updates. I'm currently attempting to move the sample builds into a format that I'm pleased with, while simultaneously recovering some data that was lost due to the hard drive failure and moving the guide into subsections so that it loads easier. Does anyone have any preferences on the layout of a broken down guide? My current concept is to break it down into at least six major sections:
1: Introduction: including the table of contents, notes on entry methods and how and why to play a theurge, and basic class abilities of the theurge
2: Race Options: relatively self explanatory
3: Class Options: this would be the largest section, and would be approximately half of it's current length. Covering the base classes, their strengths, and the options within them.
4: Skills, Feats, and Traits: I wasn't sure that each of these deserved their own section, given the size of some of the other sections. This may need splitting further as more of the minor books are covered and more traits are added.
5: Equipment: complete with it's own subsections and subtypes.
6: Sample Builds: This would have each build broken down into four links. Each build would have a full character sheet for levels 5, 10, and 15, as well as a full progression to outline the decisions made to reach those points.
7?: After Mystic Theurge. The Idea of prestigeing a prestige class amuses me, but as this is only a 10 level class, it is eventually going to be important to cover in more detail what happens after we complete all 10 levels.
If this is largely satisfactory, I'll work towards this goal, but if anyone has any thoughts, concerns, or objections, do let me know.
@Angry Wiggles: As for your number 7 on the list, I had just assumed to returning to advancing the primary caster class so you can get to lvl 9 spells. Is that too simplistic a perspective?
That's going to be the case for a wide number of builds, to be sure. I simply wanted to be sure that I covered all of the options. It is feasible and sometimes even viable that people continue into other prestige classes, such as Harrower, Evangelist, Bloatmage or the like. In many cases, this still leads to 9th level spells. The mere fact that there are other options implied to me that it should be covered.
6: Sample Builds: This would have each build broken down into four links. Each build would have a full character sheet for levels 5, 10, and 15, as well as a full progression to outline the decisions made to reach those points.
Each entire build having one link is easiest for me to read, but any vaguely organized format is ok.
I think the most useful levels are not by absolute level #, even though that is consistent. Instead, I think the most interesting level is the level before MT is entered, because this represents the sacrifice needed to get in before even a little benefit is seen. After that, a snapshot every 4 levels, representing 2 levels of spells gained or foregone, until level 20, which should also be included because a single class 1-20 gets a cap, and we need to see the benefits gained for this sacrifice too. Note that most such builds must therefore include an epilog of non-MT levels, and this should not be handwaved, since this is just as important as the MT levels.
Perhaps most useful, I think, is that each snapshot should describe the *role* the character fulfills successfully, because IIRC, your goal was to show that MT is viable. With this kind of description in hand, all the naysayers can either show you how non-MT builds are simply better at the very thing you build them to achieve, or have to admit that yes, MT can do useful things. Because really, if all we get here are builds that only minimize the lameness of MT (conventional wisdom) rather than be worthwhile in themselves, then this guide might as we be renamed "How to make the most out of the still oh so sucky MT." :)/2 I'd love to see you succeed, to the point of delurking, but admit some skepticism.
(As an aside, I don't think the MT class abilities are all that great, because they are limited to low level spells. Being able to, say, take a 7th level divine slot and turn it into a perfected, quickened, dazing, etc fireball using a 6th level slot is indeed useful... but not...
You make several solid points here. I do like the idea of adjusting the initial snapshot to the first level that we enter mystic theurge, to best show the cost of the class in comparison to other, single class casters. However, I disagree that having every build continue to level 20 is necessary. Certainly some of them may, and likely will, but given how few games reach that level, I find it more valuable to show the variety of theurge builds that can excel in the levels that most games will occur. I will put some heavy thought into the idea of the progressive snapshot, though. It may not be able to be done every four levels, as some builds (such as those involving bard, summoner, or magus) don't level their spells at such even levels. I do like the idea, although I will have to consider how to implement it. Part of my hesitation, admittedly, is the sheer amount of time involved. I have many books left to cover, and a rapidly growing list of sample builds that I would like to post. I am hesitant to add any form of variation that may increase the time involved in posting each individual build.
Thus far, the builds that are in their rough draft and being edited have several paragraphs describing the tactics and rules used to make them function, and the role they fill best in a party. Given the sheer number of options in this game, I find this to be exceedingly useful. Most of these builds are things I have playtested, and those that I haven't have been taken to friends in my local PFS community for editing and/or playtesting. I am exceedingly grateful to them for their patience. I'm sure they're tired of hearing me talk about theurges by now.
I don't really intend to show that a theurge build is better than any other build done for the same purpose. There will always be a bigger badder build. I just believe that mystic theurge is a good trade for many of the builds involved in it. Optimal? Not necessarily, but certainly viable. Especially in parties of more than four players, when we can afford to trade versatility for power more readily. The specifics will become more apparent with the posting of the builds, I suppose.
Thank you again for your thoughts and time. I very much appreciate feedback like this.
{. . .} However, I disagree that having every build continue to level 20 is necessary. {. . .}
Not absolutely necessary, except that if you want to cover much beyond Mystic Theurge, you at least need to get rather close to Level 20.
Sample builds are still in the works. I have a number of them plotted out, and several snapshots completed, but none have been uploaded yet, as they are awaiting proofreading and editing.
However, what time I have had to work on this has not been spent entirely dilly dallying around. Behold the new Format!
In an effort to speed up loading times and allow me to continue posting beyond the google docs character limit, The guide has now been broken up into several sub sections. The original link will continue to go to the main link, which contains the initial notes and a table of contents including links to the other sections of the guide.
Updates to the other sections of the guide include the correction of ACG archetypes for core classes. I'm not sure when these got lost, but they have been returned. Several feats that also went missing have been added back to the guide. Item notes for Ultimate Equipment have been added up to, and including Headband slot items. Further item notes will be coming soon.
Sample builds are still in the works. I have a number of them plotted out, and several snapshots completed, but none have been uploaded yet, as they are awaiting proofreading and editing.
However, what time I have had to work on this has not been spent entirely dilly dallying around. Behold the new Format!
In an effort to speed up loading times and allow me to continue posting beyond the google docs character limit, The guide has now been broken up into several sub sections. The original link will continue to go to the main link, which contains the initial notes and a table of contents including links to the other sections of the guide.
Updates to the other sections of the guide include the correction of ACG archetypes for core classes. I'm not sure when these got lost, but they have been returned. Several feats that also went missing have been added back to the guide. Item notes for Ultimate Equipment have been added up to, and including Headband slot items. Further item notes will be coming soon.
I should mention. The old format is backed up in it's entirety, so if, for some unforseen reason, this is horrendously unpopular. I can always reverse the change.
what of mythic?
What happened to the guide? It's only 12 pages long and none of the hyperlinks go to the Spellcasting Classes section (where I left off).
What happened to the guide? It's only 12 pages long and none of the hyperlinks go to the Spellcasting Classes section (where I left off).
I believe the Class Specific Features Section is what you're looking for. I'll rename that to make it more apparent. I adjusted the format of this section as well, so that the ratings for each class was present at the top of the section before all of the individual class features were broken down throughout it. I was attempting to make it easier to load, as I had several complaints that people's computers were crashing when attempting to open the guide.
what of mythic?
Having never played in a mythic game, I don't really consider myself a good judge of what is viable in one. Perhaps with a lot of review I may add a mythic section, but it is very much at the end of my priority list.
*edit for clarity*
Now got a chance to check out the split version really briefly (did not have time to look at all sections):
{. . .}
1: Introduction: including the table of contents, notes on entry methods and how and why to play a theurge, and basic class abilities of the theurge
This definitely loads a lot faster.
2: Race Options: relatively self explanatory
I looked briefly in here and in the Feats section, and while Multitalented Mastery is noted in the Feats section, it really also deserves a mention under the Half-Elf entry (I think just copying and paste the same sentence).
3: Class Options: this would be the largest section, and would be approximately half of it's current length. Covering the base classes, their strengths, and the options within them.
I assume you mean half the total length of the document? I wonder if maybe this should be divided into Arcane Full Caster, Arcane 3/4 Caster, Divine Full Caster, Divine 3/4 Caster, and Other sections, or at least Arcane and Divine. (Again this would be for easier loading.)
4: Skills, Feats, and Traits: I wasn't sure that each of these deserved their own section, given the size of some of the other sections. This may need splitting further as more of the minor books are covered and more traits are added.
Yes, comparing the loading time of this to the main section, I'd say splitting it into 3 sections would be the right thing to do.
5: Equipment: complete with it's own subsections and subtypes.
6: Sample Builds: This would have each build broken down into four links. Each build would have a full character sheet for levels 5, 10, and 15, as well as a full progression to outline the decisions made to reach those points.
7?: After Mystic Theurge. The Idea of prestigeing a prestige class amuses me, but as this is only a 10 level class, it is eventually going to be important to cover in more detail what happens after we complete all 10 levels.
Having the last sections back in the main section looks a bit weird when you get to the end of the first stuff that is listed in the Table of Contents and is in the main section and all of a sudden you get to stuff that is listed at the end of the Table of Contents and is still in the main section. Maybe the thing to do would be to make the main section be only the Table of Contents (and maybe Introduction), and have everything else be linked from the Table of Contents. Some other guides do this already, so you aren't having to trailblaze a precedent.
Mystic Past Life doesn't add to spells known. If you meant asking if it could do that, feel free to ignore this post.
2: Race Options: relatively self explanatoryI looked briefly in here and in the Feats section, and while Multitalented Mastery is noted in the Feats section, it really also deserves a mention under the Half-Elf entry (I think just copying and paste the same sentence).
Good point. I'll make that change in the next update.
3: Class Options: this would be the largest section, and would be approximately half of it's current length. Covering the base classes, their strengths, and the options within them.I assume you mean half the total length of the document? I wonder if maybe this should be divided into Arcane Full Caster, Arcane 3/4 Caster, Divine Full Caster, Divine 3/4 Caster, and Other sections, or at least Arcane and Divine. (Again this would be for easier loading.)
The hard part here is accounting for the relative searchability of this section. I would like to split this up, but many archetypes reference each other. There are also class features like the familiar which is present in both divine classes like the shaman and certain cleric domains and several arcane classes, but currently listed only under the wizard section. I agree that this would do well split into two sections, but I'm going to have to put further thought into how best to do that while maintaining readability and continuity between sections. This may be as simple as creating references between sections, but I'd like to make these changes in a secondary backup version first before adjusting the live copy.
4: Skills, Feats, and Traits: I wasn't sure that each of these deserved their own section, given the size of some of the other sections. This may need splitting further as more of the minor books are covered and more traits are added.Yes, comparing the loading time of this to the main section, I'd say splitting it into 3 sections would be the right thing to do.
Duly noted. I will likely keep them in the single section for a short time longer, until I begin the proper delve into the player companions and campaign setting books. That is when I will likely do the next major formatting push.
Having the last sections back in the main section looks a bit weird when you get to the end of the first stuff that is listed in the Table of Contents and is in the main section and all of a sudden you get to stuff that is listed at the end of the Table of Contents and is still in the main section. Maybe the thing to do would be to make the main section be only the Table of Contents (and maybe Introduction), and have everything else be linked from the Table of Contents. Some other guides do this already, so you aren't having to trailblaze a precedent.5: Equipment: complete with it's own subsections and subtypes.
6: Sample Builds: This would have each build broken down into four links. Each build would have a full character sheet for levels 5, 10, and 15, as well as a full progression to outline the decisions made to reach those points.
7?: After Mystic Theurge. The Idea of prestigeing a prestige class amuses me, but as this is only a 10 level class, it is eventually going to be important to cover in more detail what happens after we complete all 10 levels.
That is a solid idea, and would be fixing an issue that my late night brain was having many an issue solving. I will likely use this during the next update.
Mystic Past Life doesn't add to spells known. If you meant asking if it could do that, feel free to ignore this post.
You are absolutely correct. I am not sure why I wrote that it might. It adds to our spell list, certainly, but not to our spells known. I'll correct this.
Working on my first Mystic Theurge and I want to make sure I have a few details right after reading this.
1. If I go Aasimar to gain See Invisibility that counts as a Level 2 Arcane Spell
2. If I go Cleric 1 and grab the Trickery Domain, that counts as a Level 2 Divine Spell, since it's from a cleric ability.
3. Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 1 is the earliest I could get into MT, correct?
Thanks in advance and sorry to bother with something so basic, just want to make sure I have the mechanics down correctly.
That is correct, because you need 3 levels to meet the skill requirements.
Working on my first Mystic Theurge and I want to make sure I have a few details right after reading this.
1. If I go Aasimar to gain See Invisibility that counts as a Level 2 Arcane Spell
2. If I go Cleric 1 and grab the Trickery Domain, that counts as a Level 2 Divine Spell, since it's from a cleric ability.
3. Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 1 is the earliest I could get into MT, correct?Thanks in advance and sorry to bother with something so basic, just want to make sure I have the mechanics down correctly.
Azten has it right, that is absolutely correct.
Thanks a ton, I love to play Wizards so I thought it would be fun to expand out abit, but I wanted to make sure that I was doing it right before I put the character to the DM for approval.
As a Wiz 2/Cleric 1/MT with Acadamae Graduate & Sacred Summons, I'm having a fun time. Looking forward to the post-MT section as I can see this being someone I make the effort to take past L12 in PFS.
I have hopes and dreams for that section. But first it has to congeal beyond a shapeless pile of notes and feelings. There should be several updates coming soon, but I have to finish shaping them into something worth posting first. Unfortunately, work has been unfortunately taxing on my time, of late.
{. . .}
Unfortunately, work has been unfortunately taxing on my time, of late.
I feel your pain . . .
|
Angry Wiggles, thanks again for this guide. I read through the whole thing last night when the Paizo forums were down (think this may be a sign of forum addiction?) and was impressed with it.
I especially love your comparisons and analysis of what each class offers at low levels. This has just been excellent so far. I still have no desire to play a mystic theurge, but I now have a much better understanding of the prestige class and all it has to offer!
Hmm
Next update is now live. This update includes all of the remaining items from ultimate equipment, being everything from the neck, shoulder and wrist slots, as well as slotless items. It also includes relevant traits from Ultimate Campaign, familiars and races from Bestiary 3 and Bestiary 4, and relevant items, archetypes, and prestige classes from Inner Sea Magic and Pathfinder Chronicle: Campaign Setting. I've also fixed some formatting, references, and color coding in the oracle curses section, I hope this clears up some confusion.
I also changed some of the formatting in the introductory section. I do intend on splitting this off into several subsections, and I have several duplicate copies of the guide where I've been toying with various ways to do this, but none of them are anything remotely close to satisfactory. I'll settle on the current method for now. It is also not satisfactory, but at least it's straightforward.
I added a new section as well, for notes on continuing after finishing mystic theurge. This section is largely in it's infancy, but contains notes on whether it is valuable to continue in your primary base class, as opposed to a prestige class, as well as the relative value of full casting prestige classes presented in the CRB, APG, and ISM.
As usual, thanks to all for their kind remarks so far on the guide. I appreciate all of the feedback, as it helps keep me motivated on so large a project as this. Also, my apologies on the slightly larger gap between updates, I've been preparing several large projects at work, as well as gathering my entries for RPG Superstar.
I'm going to continue to dive into the piles of player companions and campaign setting books in the coming weeks with the hopes of sussing out further archetypes, items, prestige classes, and other goodies. Once those are complete, I will spiral outwards into modules, adventure paths, and scenarios, for the rare treats included within that can be quite valuable.
What I wanted to ask is, is there any other way to get double 9's besides esoteric/eclectic training?
What I wanted to ask is, is there any other way to get double 9's besides esoteric/eclectic training?
That depends heavily on your GM's interpretation of the Evangelist archetype from Inner Sea Gods. Under one of the... more liberal interpretations of the prestige class, you can continue progressing both arcane and divine spellcasting gains beyond the normal 10th level limit for Mystic Theurge. If you used the entry method A, this would result in you having lost 2 and 3 levels of progression in either class, respectively, effectively gaining 9th level spells in both classes.
However, it has been hotly debated as to whether or not this is intended, or even how it actually works. If this is something you intend to do, talk to your GM ahead of time and make certain that they understand the debate and approve of the build. I intend to cover both sides of the debate fairly neutrally when I cover Inner Sea Gods to allow people to keep their debates to the evangelist threads, rather than the mystic theurge ones.
not far as ive found--you've gotta hit at least 17 caster level (before items/feats) for 9th level casting, and only for the wizard and cleric.
so (4+3 esoteric / 6+1 esoteric) with +10 to both through MT just barely squeaks by.
on anything with slower casting, you can get 9th on one side and 8th on the other (7+1 esoteric / 3+3 esoteric).
What I wanted to ask is, is there any other way to get double 9's besides esoteric/eclectic training?That depends heavily on your GM's interpretation of the Evangelist archetype from Inner Sea Gods. Under one of the... more liberal interpretations of the prestige class, you can continue progressing both arcane and divine spellcasting gains beyond the normal 10th level limit for Mystic Theurge. If you used the entry method A, this would result in you having lost 2 and 3 levels of progression in either class, respectively, effectively gaining 9th level spells in both classes.
However, it has been hotly debated as to whether or not this is intended, or even how it actually works. If this is something you intend to do, talk to your GM ahead of time and make certain that they understand the debate and approve of the build. I intend to cover both sides of the debate fairly neutrally when I cover Inner Sea Gods to allow people to keep their debates to the evangelist threads, rather than the mystic theurge ones.
Oh my...This is a very liberal interpretation of the class ability!
And yes, should the esoteric/eclectic training is approved by the GM, it only works for the "9th lvl spells at 17th level" classes.
Your equipment section should probably note one stave, the Staff of the Master Necromancer. The spells it provides are irrelevant but its ability to add any metamagic feat you know to any of your spells is crushingly powerful. It is also far less expensive than any of the greater metamagic rods.
That is a good catch. I have made a mental note after your comment and mentally gearing up for RPG Superstar to go back over the less Spell-In-A-Can staves and add them into the equipment section. I'll make sure that makes it into the next update. Thanks for the comment and the keen eye.
So, I feel like I'm being a dingus or something, but even with "9th level spells at 17th level" classes, how does esoteric/eclectic training become dual 9ths?
Esoteric and Eclectic Training increase your total number of spells known, as well as the number of spells you can cast per day, in addition to your caster level, so built in the ideal fashion, it can function as follows:
This is using the ideal early entry, being Racial early entry for arcane, and domain early entry for cleric.
1: wizard
2: wizard
3: cleric
4: mystic theurge (2nd level wizard)
5: mystic theurge (2nd level cleric)
6: mystic theurge (3rd level wizard)
7: mystic theurge (3rd level cleric)
8: mystic theurge (4th level wizard)
9: mystic theurge (4th level cleric)
10: mystic theurge (5th level wizard)
11: mystic theurge (5th level cleric)
12: mystic theurge (6th level wizard)
13: mystic theurge (6th level cleric)
14: wizard (7th level wizard)
15: cleric (7th level cleric)
16: cleric
17: cleric (8th level cleric)
18: wizard
19: cleric
20: cleric (9th level cleric)
As the Esoteric Training adds to our spells per day and spells known, and we have effectively taken 14 levels of wizard for our spellcasting, we know that the +3 effective levels from esoteric training will increase our effective class level in wizard from 14 to 17, and in cleric from 17 to 18. This gives us 9th level spells in wizard barely, while solidifying our 9th level spells in cleric. Certainly, you can rearrange the classes to do it in the other order, but this was simply one example.
And I've included the actual text below, because it's relevant.
train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches
5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.
If this does not clarify the matter, please do let me know.
I love the guide Angry Wiggles! Minor quibble with the above post... you have the cleric spellcasting gaining 7th level spells at character level 15 (1 cleric level after it gained level 6 spells) An adjusted end progression would be
14: wizard (7th level wizard)
15: cleric
16: cleric (7th level cleric)
17: cleric
18: wizard
19: cleric (8th level cleric)
20: cleric
This gives effective spellcaster level: 14 wizard, 16 cleric. Assuming that character has 35 Fame in a magic guild, Esoteric Training would give +3/+1 to the effective level, or 17 wizard 17 cleric... just squeaking in for level 9 spells in each class.
Of course, if available at a particular table, Esoteric training would likely kick in earlier than level 20 (but likely no earlier than character level 6 or 7, depending on how the willing DM handles guilds) ... but arguments about that are probably better off in other places.
^Where do you find Eclectic Training and Esoteric Training? I cannot find them in d20pfsrd, Archives of Nethys, or the Paizo PRD.
Purely hypothetical, and barring alignment issues...
How early could you theurge for a Bloodrager/Paladin build?
I thought it would be like level 15. At that point you could have some spells, and a good BAB.
And raging and smiting.... At the same time....
If you focused on CHA as the primary stat it might not actually be terrible!
Maybe the alignment thing would be better if it as an antipaladin instead... Conductive weapons anyone?
Eclectic/Esoteric Training are in Inner Sea Magic, pg 22. They aren't feats or anything... just benefits you get for belonging to a magic guild and acquiring Fame within the organization (5 Fame for the lesser, 35 for the greater). Just a guess... I bet they were overlooked because they weren't in the Feats/Spells/Archetypes section.
It's a pretty powerful RP benefit.