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I'm playing in a campaign (Skulls & Shackles) where we have reached 11th level.
Our GM is something of a math genius, and seems able to tackle Pathfinder at that level of play.
We have a blast playing pirates, and I'm personnaly very happy with my magus PC.
I don't have a problem, per se, but I'm taken aback by the amount of damage our resident gunslinger (goblin 11th level gunslinger) is dishing out every round : something like 240 without critical !
It's an instant kill for every NPC in the campaign so far, and it has put our barbarian fighter cultist of Gorum to shame - which is the real problem here, as the barbarian's player has become very disheartened to be the goblin's player little b%@#! in every combat situation.
I think this amount of damage is ridiculous, but then I've rarely played at this level.
Is the gunslinger class ridiculously broken ?
Is the gunslinger's player - a notorious optimizer prone to dubious rules exploits and interpretations - taking advantage of our GM ?
Both the barbarian and the gunslinger should be doing comparable damage. The gunslinger is more than likely spending a good deal of gold to keep up that kind of damage, baring any magic he gets buffed with.
It is true that the gunslinger will have an easier time hitting all of his shots, your barbarian shouldn't really be missing any except maybe his last.
Baring any more concrete builds of the either of them I can't comment on any more.
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Some precisions:
The goblin has several double-barreled guns, fires them an humongous number of times per round, and has alchemical cartridges.
He has some goggles with "see invisibility" always on, hit every NPC he sets his mind to, and has stratospheric stealth skill ranks, so the NPCs never spot him first.
Our GM jokingly said to us that the goblin could probably destroy one warship per round with the amount of damage he does on average - which imho would probably sink the ship and the campaign.
I didn't know about the touch AC only being in the 30 feet range.
Our GM never mentioned that rule, and I suspect he may have overlooked it.
To be fair, the barbarian does a piddly amount of damage, because the barbarian's player has an horrendous (lack of) tactical sense.
Thanks for the advice all !
I think I've got ammunition to deal with the goblin.
Just to be clear: are the double-barreled guns too good a deal at this level, or at all ?
I suspect some shenanigans with rapid reload and weapons cords too.
I played a goblin gunslinger in S&S recently, and while it was fun to do a ton of damage, I found myself quite often useless due to the many underwater combats, to the point where I retired the character.
I don't think double barrel guns are supposed to give you extra attacks per round, just an extra round before you actually have to reload; if you've already got the whole free-action reload going on due to rapid reload/alchemical cartridges/musket master combo, it's kind of useless to have that extra barrel.
Oh, and misfire...that was my nemesis when I was playing a gunslinger! Alchemical cartridges raise misfire values by a point, and then there's already the 1-2 for muskets, so I was misfiring on a 1-3. It may not seem like much, but when you touch on a roll of literally any number you don't misfire, the dice seem to hate you and pop up a "3" all the dang time. Not only do you miss, but you have to waste grit to pop your gun back into normal condition fast enough to take a single shot next round. Ugh.
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his pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action.
If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
So besides cover he should be receiving a -4 on both shots if fired at the same time.
As others have said he only gets the touch ac against thing in his first range increment which is 20 feet with a double barreled pistol. So besides using deeds to up this he is stuck hitting normal ac outside of that range.
Also don't forget how badly water effects pistols etc.
Firearms, Black Powder, and Water: Black powder becomes useless when exposed to water, but powder horns and cartridges protect black powder from exposure. You cannot normally load an early firearm underwater or fire any firearm underwater without magical aid.
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I am also having trouble seeing how the gunslinger is doing that much damage if the number you quoted is correct its hard to imagine even at that level.
Factoring in his class gunslinger 11
He should have 6 feats from levels
He should have 2 bonus feats from gunslinger.
So let us assume the gunslinger has the normal feats most people would take as a gunslinger.
Dead Aim (at his level it would be -3 on attacks for a +6 damage)
Rapid Reload (free reloading with cartridges on the pistol)
Let us also assume for whatever reason he has both barrels of his double barrel enchanted at +3 (yes double barrels function like double weapons)
Let us also assume he has a dexterity of 20 so a modifier of +5 which we would add to the damage with the gun.
Assuming he isn't using any other damage or further attacks this round then he would be doing the following damage.
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +11 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim = +13
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +6 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim = +8
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +1 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim = +3
Assuming he hits everything on all the hits he would be doing 90-132 damage a turn on full attacks.
This could be raised via other magic items etc, but at his base he's probably somewhere in this realm.
If you add in the two weapon fighting rules (which you shouldn't because explain reloading guns with both hands full) it gets even less likely to hit.
More realistically he maybe took rapid shot for one more attack or in this case 2 more shots with the double barreled pistol, but that would end up looking more like this:
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +11 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim -2 for rapid shot= +11
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +11 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim -2 for rapid shot= +11
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +6 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim -2 for rapid shot = +6
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +1 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim -2 for rapid shot = +1
Again assuming you hit everyone of your shots the damage would be 120 - 176
Even adding a +6 dexterity modifier item to the character it doesn't make much sense that would just change the first scenario to 108-150
and the second scenario to 144-200 damage again assuming all of these things hits, which again is very unlikely.
Also if not already stated at level 11 in a skull and shackles game of any pirate worth his weight in gold heard of a goblin gunslinger blasting people out of the water they would find a nice defense against this very fast. Im shocked you haven't run into more people wearing amulets of bullet protection or with monk body guards busting out catch arrows and deflect arrows.
Yeah, I'm thinking the GM is going too easy on the goblin gunslinger.
I'll bring it to his attention.
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Dual weidling double pistols give you -4 to all attack rolls, double tapping makes it -8. Also altought its not stated powder easily gets wet and wet powder is useless.
touch attacks are at 20ft for pistols unless he has a distance enchantment, which i doubt since he uses multiple pistols.
IF he is using weapon cords, they have been errataed to be a swift action to use, making impossilbe to juggle with them.
Also remeember misfires, a misfire is an automatic miss, there more attacks you have the more likely you can misfire. a gunslinger at level 11 can have 40% chance to get a 1 on a full attack, considering double pistols this can go up to 80% chance, likely losing at least one attack per full round. Dms often forget to enforce this
Yeah, something doesn't smell right here. The GM should really check the
notorious optimizer prone to dubious rules exploits and interpretations
character sheet to see what shenanigans are being done here.
DERP Gunslinger.
Or did you mean DPR?
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Pistols are light weapons, so only -2 if he has two weapon fighting.
Incorrect.
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Keep in mind weapon cords require a move action to recover weapons now. They are much less powerful in that regard.
Yeah, they really had to change the action due to double pistol shenanigans, although this is apparently how actual pirates fought, with many loaded pistol with weapon cords to keep the pistols from falling overboard.
I know a fair amount of people who consider it a fair houserule to eliminate the double shot feature of double pistols, or to make pistols target regular AC while removing the misfire rules, but it's a little late to implement a houserule to balance the game.
It might be useful though to make sure the GM is making the gunslinger keep track of his ammunition use. When you're making that many attacks, you should be using 72 GP a round if he's using 3 double shots, 96 GP if it's 4 double shots. I've adventured with a gunslinger who I thought was pretty impressive, til he told me he had used 1000 GP worth of ammunition in that one session. Said he'd once spent 3000 GP on a tough adventure. Almost makes UMD and abundant ammunition a necessity.
Also, allowing goblins with a class that only uses Dex and Wis is about as bad a choice as allowing the Barbarian to be a Trox.
Yes the double gun entries in UC are completely crazy and leave a lot of room for interpretation, which leads to the interpretation that they double the number of your attacks.
I suggest using the Semi-Automatic rule for the double barreled guns.
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Yes the double gun entries in UC are completely crazy and leave a lot of room for interpretation, which leads to the interpretation that they double the number of your attacks.
I suggest using the Semi-Automatic rule for the double barreled guns.
Ooh, I'd never noticed that before. Think I've got a new houserule for my games, thanks leo1925.
Let me guess - Pistolero with Up Close and Deadly as Signature Deed?
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I also forgot that the goblin's small size would effect the base damage of the pistol, so that would even further reduce the damage cause by the attack sequences (again if they actually hit with everything, which isn't likely).
If he is indeed a pistolero that would defintely put him in higher damage range especially with the signature deed combined with up close and deadly.
This would add 3d6 damage to every shot that hits and 1/2 of 3d6 on every shot missed.
In that case maybe, but as mentioned in this case of shooting that many alchemical cartridges would wind up costing quite a bit.
Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day).
3 round of combat would take you 108 gp or 144gp if he is crafting himself.
Otherwise as mentioned its 72gp or 84 gp a round. Which is pretty expensive and your party members which if always in combat will definitely start affecting your wealth by level.
Gunslingers can be very deadly. But...
They provoke when shooting. They provoke when reloading. They have misfire (one of my first battles with a musket master involved his gun breaking... after two misfires...).Paper cartridges cost 6gp a piece--when you fire 7-10 shots in a round, that adds up very quickly.
There is definitely some confirmation bias against gunslingers though. Everyone remembers when the gunslinger crits and deals 200-300 damage in one round, but they dont pay attention when most of their shots miss and end up dealing 45 damage in a round.
My current fighter can deal 200-300 damage in a round, and uses Gloves of the Shortened Path to basically attack anywhere. He cannot misfire, he doesnt provoke to attack, he can tank hits, and it doesnt cost him anything to go all out. My musket master was more fun, but he wasnt necessarily more powerful.
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Gunslingers can be very deadly. But...
They provoke when shooting. They provoke when reloading. They have misfire (one of my first battles with a musket master involved his gun breaking... after two misfires...).Paper cartridges cost 6gp a piece--when you fire 7-10 shots in a round, that adds up very quickly.
There is definitely some confirmation bias against gunslingers though. Everyone remembers when the gunslinger crits and deals 200-300 damage in one round, but they dont pay attention when most of their shots miss and end up dealing 45 damage in a round.
My current fighter can deal 200-300 damage in a round, and uses Gloves of the Shortened Path to basically attack anywhere. He cannot misfire, he doesnt provoke to attack, he can tank hits, and it doesnt cost him anything to go all out. My musket master was more fun, but he wasnt necessarily more powerful.
This all day long. System mastery plays a big roll as well. If the barbarian is playing suboptimal then why rain on someone else's parade, not saying that the gunslinger isn't maybe messing up but it does seem to be a "look he's better than me and I don't like it".
The same thing happens with summoners, I honestly only think they are above average at lower levels and point buys. At high level and high point buy they are worse than the standard 9-level casters.
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Fascinating... Our superstitious barbarian does more damage than my advanced firearm gunslinger. But we are only level 10. ;)
No really, I suspect wrong weapon cord things, wrong Touch AC distance and wrong misfire interpretation.
lvl 11 si quite the important level for any gunslinge,r signature deed provides a huuuge amount of damage or utility. Pistoleros with signaured deed gain basically +4d6 sneak attack with that feat.
I'm playing in a campaign (Skulls & Shackles) where we have reached 11th level.
Our GM is something of a math genius, and seems able to tackle Pathfinder at that level of play.
We have a blast playing pirates, and I'm personnaly very happy with my magus PC.
I don't have a problem, per se, but I'm taken aback by the amount of damage our resident gunslinger (goblin 11th level gunslinger) is dishing out every round : something like 240 without critical !
It's an instant kill for every NPC in the campaign so far, and it has put our barbarian fighter cultist of Gorum to shame - which is the real problem here, as the barbarian's player has become very disheartened to be the goblin's player little b!~%@ in every combat situation.
I think this amount of damage is ridiculous, but then I've rarely played at this level.
Is the gunslinger class ridiculously broken ?
Is the gunslinger's player - a notorious optimizer prone to dubious rules exploits and interpretations - taking advantage of our GM ?
Id say he's probably taking advantage some how usually gunslingers run into a wall with having to reload. So he could probably do that in one round but the next round he should be doing a lot less. Been a while since i tried gunslinger though but if I remember right even with rapid reload you pretty much can only reload one shot per swift so with 3 swifts that's only 3 shots reloaded a round. Or am I not remembering it right? Like I said it's been a while.
I probably wouldn't even let him rapid reload with both hands full.
Id say he's probably taking advantage some how usually gunslingers run into a wall with having to reload. So he could probably do that in one round but the next round he should be doing a lot less. Been a while since i tried gunslinger though but if I remember right even with rapid reload you pretty much can only reload one shot per swift so with 3 swifts that's only 3 shots reloaded a round. Or am I not remembering it right? Like I said it's been a while.I'm playing in a campaign (Skulls & Shackles) where we have reached 11th level.
Our GM is something of a math genius, and seems able to tackle Pathfinder at that level of play.
We have a blast playing pirates, and I'm personnaly very happy with my magus PC.
I don't have a problem, per se, but I'm taken aback by the amount of damage our resident gunslinger (goblin 11th level gunslinger) is dishing out every round : something like 240 without critical !
It's an instant kill for every NPC in the campaign so far, and it has put our barbarian fighter cultist of Gorum to shame - which is the real problem here, as the barbarian's player has become very disheartened to be the goblin's player little b!~%@ in every combat situation.
I think this amount of damage is ridiculous, but then I've rarely played at this level.
Is the gunslinger class ridiculously broken ?
Is the gunslinger's player - a notorious optimizer prone to dubious rules exploits and interpretations - taking advantage of our GM ?
Well for one you can't downgrade into swifts, you get one per round.
Second he's probably reloading as a free action, though hands my be a problem.
Id say he's probably taking advantage some how usually gunslingers run into a wall with having to reload. So he could probably do that in one round but the next round he should be doing a lot less. Been a while since i tried gunslinger though but if I remember right even with rapid reload you pretty much can only reload one shot per swift so with 3 swifts that's only 3 shots reloaded a round. Or am I not remembering it right? Like I said it's been a while.I'm playing in a campaign (Skulls & Shackles) where we have reached 11th level.
Our GM is something of a math genius, and seems able to tackle Pathfinder at that level of play.
We have a blast playing pirates, and I'm personnaly very happy with my magus PC.
I don't have a problem, per se, but I'm taken aback by the amount of damage our resident gunslinger (goblin 11th level gunslinger) is dishing out every round : something like 240 without critical !
It's an instant kill for every NPC in the campaign so far, and it has put our barbarian fighter cultist of Gorum to shame - which is the real problem here, as the barbarian's player has become very disheartened to be the goblin's player little b!~%@ in every combat situation.
I think this amount of damage is ridiculous, but then I've rarely played at this level.
Is the gunslinger class ridiculously broken ?
Is the gunslinger's player - a notorious optimizer prone to dubious rules exploits and interpretations - taking advantage of our GM ?
Well for one you can't downgrade into swifts, you get one per round.
Second he's probably reloading as a free action, though hands my be a problem.
Yep your right now where did i get that from I swear haveing played every edition of D&D, pathfinder, and all of the other "d20" systems I have played over the years really catches up to me sometimes.
Think it might have been star wars saga edition.
Expensive but gloves of storing get around the free hands issue.
Well for one you can't downgrade into swifts, you get one per round.Second he's probably reloading as a free action, though hands my be a problem.
Ok so he could still only reload one gun since you can only wear 1 glove of storing at a time
Also it states in the rules you can only reload one barrel of a firearm in one round
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the
gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single
barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift
action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload
a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round
instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke
attacks of opportunity.
You might be able to do 3 reloads a round perhaps doing 1 as a free 1 as move and one as a standard
Also it states in the rules you can only reload one barrel of a firearm in one round
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the
gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single
barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift
action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload
a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round
instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke
attacks of opportunity.
See bolded above, if they have rapid reload they can do one barrel per free action, free actions are only limited by the gm.
Free Actions
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
but then as a magus the op should be casting an intensified shocking grasp and attacking 4 times (if hasted) and if he crits any of those casting another intensified shocking grasp and getting another attack each round at 12th lvl.
Also it states in the rules you can only reload one barrel of a firearm in one round
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the
gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single
barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift
action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload
a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round
instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke
attacks of opportunity.See bolded above, if they have rapid reload they can do one barrel per free action, free actions are only limited by the gm.
Free Actions
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
still sez
she can reloada single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round
instead.
so it does limit the number of times each round you can use that particular free action
An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.
Don't use lighting reload then use rapid plus paper now its a non limited free, there you go.
Early Firearms: Early firearms are muzzle-loaded,
requiring bullets or pellets and black powder to be rammed
down the muzzle. If an early firearm has multiple barrels,
each barrel must be loaded separately. It is a standard action
to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a
full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early
firearm. It takes three full-round actions by one person to
load a siege firearm. This can be reduced to two full-round
actions if more than one person is loading the cannon.
Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms are chamberloaded.
It is a move action to load a one-handed or twohanded
advanced firearm to its full capacity.
you are still limited to reloading only one weapon each round even if you do have a glove of storing. Unless your playing someone that has more than two hands.
Plus not to mention if you are playing pirates you shouldn't even have Advanced firearms really.
Rapid reload(one-handed) + paper cartridge == free action to reload with no inherent limit aside from hands. I will concede on lighting reload you are right about that one, it's bad as written though (as in useful).
Also both saga and 4e had action downgrades. Man I miss some good saga action.
I have no problem with some one reloading one firearm that way I think reloading 2 is abusing the system.
Hummm maybe a vanaras could get around it with his tail?
Gun Twirling lets you holster as a free action. Combine with Quick Draw, where you draw as a free action, and you can full attack, holstering one gun and loading the other and swapping guns and all that goodness.
Pretty much the most attacks you can get in a single round is using that combo, as it allows you to stack the TWF chain with Rapid Shot for an eventual unprecedented 9 hits in one round without magical assistance or natural attacks.
Takes a ton of feats, though.
Does make me consider throwing together a gunslinger/fighter multiclass to try...
Thanks to all who pitched in this thread.
One of the problems that I identified after reading all of the above is that the GM is not applying the "short range"="touch AC"/"other ranges"="non-touch AC" rule.
So the goblin basically hits anything on his round.
Plus, I'm pretty sure he's abusing the weapon cord thing - ignoring the errata concerning this piece of equipment.
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Plus, I'm pretty sure he's abusing the weapon cord thing - ignoring the errata concerning this piece of equipment.
He may just not know about the errata, hell I have a Gunslinger in my group and I sure didn't know about it so don't be too quick at pointing finger at him. As far as we know, he was simply using a perfectly legitimate strategy (although completely broken, good thing that errata is out), now it's up to your GM to decide if the weapon cord errata will be applied to your game or not.
I feel that the Gunslinger class is indeed ridiculously broken. People can create many excuses for why the Gunslinger isn’t really so bad after all, but if it is doing 240 DPR in your game that sounds like a problem to me. Of course the DM can “fix things” by optimizing combat in various ways, standing on his head, or targeting the PC and intentionally frustrating his abilities. If the Gunslinger is making fellow PCs feel pointless and the DM has to adjust the entire campaign that seems off kilter to me.
One thing you should make sure of is that the goblin isn’t inflicting precision damage with both barrels on a “double shot”. I think this would fall under the volley rules which state you only get sneak attack on one ray of a Scorching Ray spell. If your DM is willing to use house rules I’d also highly suggest ruling that firing both barrels of a double barreled firearm should require a standard action or multiple attacks. That leaves the double barreled guns with a cool power for rounds where you can’t make a full attack without making them quite as ridiculously over the top. If the goblin has two guns you’ll also want to pay close attention to how they’re getting reloaded. People have already mentioned the weapon cord nerd, and I'll mention that it probably happened largely because of two gun exploits.
I suspect that my double barreled house rule is about as far as most DMs would be willing to go. I think it could also be interesting to change the rules for firearms or touch attacks in general though. For instance, if firearms could only ignore the first 10 points of combined armor and natural armor bonuses suddenly dragons would be tough again and going nuts with TWF, Deadly Aim and other penalty to hit for more damage schemes might not work out so well. Any DM who attempts such house rules would probably be forced to walk the plank though.
Of course there’s always the fact that Gunslingers don’t tend to have great Will saves. This is a big weakness and can also make them very dangerous to their allies.
@thegreenteagamer - You can buy firearm ammunition which works underwater. This is one of the few instances where the cost of ammo is actually significant to high level PCs, but it certainly seems like it would be worth it for a pirate themed game which occurs in and around water.
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@Devilkiller
But it's okay for a full attacking barbarian or other ranged character to do that same thing at less feat cost and less money though right? It's just because "you" don't like guns that makes it a problem right? Because I see a lot of this kind of crying in here.
The 2h fighter in one of my games does this kind of dmg at level 9 about 35-50 a swing. I don't cry I just buff him and handle the stuff he can't.