The Gunslinger : DRP Hell on Golarion


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Onyxlion wrote:

@Devilkiller

But it's okay for a full attacking barbarian or other ranged character to do that same thing at less feat cost and less money though right? It's just because "you" don't like guns that makes it a problem right? Because I see a lot of this kind of crying in here.

The 2h fighter in one of my games does this kind of dmg at level 9 about 35-50 a swing. I don't cry I just buff him and handle the stuff he can't.

Actually if he is allowed to use weapon chords the old way it IS hideously broken.

Also if they're ignoring rules (there are several ignored rules) they're even more broken.

Played correctly they have high DPR but still pale to a druid, barbarian, or similar. Unless it's a gun archetype for another class. Holy gun may be the highest DPR of all classes while smiting evil outsiders/dragons/undead.


Undone wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:

@Devilkiller

But it's okay for a full attacking barbarian or other ranged character to do that same thing at less feat cost and less money though right? It's just because "you" don't like guns that makes it a problem right? Because I see a lot of this kind of crying in here.

The 2h fighter in one of my games does this kind of dmg at level 9 about 35-50 a swing. I don't cry I just buff him and handle the stuff he can't.

Actually if he is allowed to use weapon chords the old way it IS hideously broken.

Also if they're ignoring rules (there are several ignored rules) they're even more broken.

Played correctly they have high DPR but still pale to a druid, barbarian, or similar. Unless it's a gun archetype for another class. Holy gun may be the highest DPR of all classes while smiting evil outsiders/dragons/undead.

Actually we don't know if any rules are being broken because the op is a player that doesn't know anything beyond what he's seen. He's not the gunslinger but he came here to knock the gunslinger off his perch because another player's barbarian, who's suboptimal and also not the ops, feels that the gunslinger is better than him. That is all we know because it's been said. The gm, gunslinger, or barbarian aren't here to provide anything else.

So it's broken to use weapon cords to be equal to other classes, that's a new one on me.


Onyxlion wrote:
Undone wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:

@Devilkiller

But it's okay for a full attacking barbarian or other ranged character to do that same thing at less feat cost and less money though right? It's just because "you" don't like guns that makes it a problem right? Because I see a lot of this kind of crying in here.

The 2h fighter in one of my games does this kind of dmg at level 9 about 35-50 a swing. I don't cry I just buff him and handle the stuff he can't.

Actually if he is allowed to use weapon chords the old way it IS hideously broken.

Also if they're ignoring rules (there are several ignored rules) they're even more broken.

Played correctly they have high DPR but still pale to a druid, barbarian, or similar. Unless it's a gun archetype for another class. Holy gun may be the highest DPR of all classes while smiting evil outsiders/dragons/undead.

Actually we don't know if any rules are being broken because the op is a player that doesn't know anything beyond what he's seen. He's not the gunslinger but he came here to knock the gunslinger off his perch because another player's barbarian, who's suboptimal and also not the ops, feels that the gunslinger is better than him. That is all we know because it's been said. The gm, gunslinger, or barbarian aren't here to provide anything else.

So it's broken to use weapon cords to be equal to other classes, that's a new one on me.

Doing 240 DPR at level 11 is only equaled by the animating dead nature oracle which had 5 large skeletal creatures and an animal companion which he road while lancing. 240DPR without additonal summons/undead/animals means he's not doing something right based on math.

If you think being equal means being double the DPR of other classes then I don't know what to say. Weapon chording gunslingers are why weapon chords were nerfed because it's horribly broken.


It's all word of mouth, we don't know and you know what people exaggerate. If you go back a few posts I said that a 2h fighyer at 9th can do that DPR in a round and has exceeded it a few times.

In fact at 11th I could probably do that with most dmg bases classes.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The thing with the gunslinger is that quite often such high damage outputs come from not going by the rules.
OP already said the GM let him have touch attacks beyond the first weapon range increment and probably they also neglected misfire chances etc.

And probably something is amiss with action economy and reloading too.


@Onyxlion - Calling my observations "crying" seems kind of insulting to me. I also think that a melee PC with a two-handed weapon is a far different case from a Gunslinger attacking touch AC. The ease of scoring hits on touch AC is the root of the "problem" I and some others see with Gunslingers. The DM can certainly take steps to counter this, but it can be challenging and is likely to require significant changes to an AP style adventure like the one which the OP's DM is currently running. Anyhow, just looking at the maximum or "average" damage a PC could do without carefully considering how likely they are to actually inflict that damage against a variety of foes might leave the Gunslinger and the Barbarian looking a lot more balanced in DPR than I've observed them being in both theoretical comparisons and some actual games.

@Undone - I haven't found that the Gunslinger's DPR pales in comparison to the Barbarian. It is possible that I just don't tend to see fully optimized Barbarians, but at higher levels I'd expect around 40-60 damage per hit with 4-5 attacks. It is generally much easier to defend against attacks on AC though, so I'd expect that a fair number of those attacks might miss. A Druid's damage is tougher to calculate since it could include spells and summons. In the right situation a Summoner can deliver absolutely ridiculous damage via stuff like smiting dire tigers. Those are attacks on regular AC which aren't very good at bypassing DR though, so the actual DPR will often fall well short of the sky high "potential" damage. With +5 guns or Force Bombs damage tends to be much more consistent and very difficult for foes to avoid.


Onyxlion wrote:

It's all word of mouth, we don't know and you know what people exaggerate. If you go back a few posts I said that a 2h fighyer at 9th can do that DPR in a round and has exceeded it a few times.

In fact at 11th I could probably do that with most dmg bases classes.

Prove it

Because the DPR olympics can't reach more than half those numbers without using animate dead or an animal.

Quote:

The thing with the gunslinger is that quite often such high damage outputs come from not going by the rules.

Yup. This thread is nearly as common as the "Paladin fall's" threads and it's nearly always someone who has either given guns to an eidolon or isn't following the rules.

Quote:
@Undone - I haven't found that the Gunslinger's DPR pales in comparison to the Barbarian. It is possible that I just don't tend to see fully optimized Barbarians, but at higher levels I'd expect around 40-60 damage per hit with 4-5 attacks. It is generally much easier to defend against attacks on AC though, so I'd expect that a fair number of those attacks might miss. A Druid's damage is tougher to calculate since it could include spells and summons. In the right situation a Summoner can deliver absolutely ridiculous damage via stuff like smiting dire tigers. Those are attacks on regular AC which aren't very good at bypassing DR though, so the actual DPR will often fall well short of the sky high "potential" damage. With +5 guns or Force Bombs damage tends to be much more consistent and very difficult for foes to avoid.

You don't. The barbarian should be swinging in the 60-70 damage range and getting more attacks per round than the gunslinger thanks to come and get me giving him effectively 2 or 3 full attacks a turn. Druid wild shape + animal companion is easy and extremely high DPR. Guns aren't really any more consistent than the animal companion + druid or the barbarian swinging with a +5 furious courageous weapon.


Caws Rorec wrote:

Let us also assume for whatever reason he has both barrels of his double barrel enchanted at +3 (yes double barrels function like double weapons)

...

Where does it say that double-barrled pistols function as double weapons?

The other double-weapon firearms, like the musket-warhamer specifically call out that they are double weapons.


Devilkiller wrote:

@Onyxlion - Calling my observations "crying" seems kind of insulting to me. I also think that a melee PC with a two-handed weapon is a far different case from a Gunslinger attacking touch AC. The ease of scoring hits on touch AC is the root of the "problem" I and some others see with Gunslingers. The DM can certainly take steps to counter this, but it can be challenging and is likely to require significant changes to an AP style adventure like the one which the OP's DM is currently running. Anyhow, just looking at the maximum or "average" damage a PC could do without carefully considering how likely they are to actually inflict that damage against a variety of foes might leave the Gunslinger and the Barbarian looking a lot more balanced in DPR than I've observed them being in both theoretical comparisons and some actual games.

@Undone - I haven't found that the Gunslinger's DPR pales in comparison to the Barbarian. It is possible that I just don't tend to see fully optimized Barbarians, but at higher levels I'd expect around 40-60 damage per hit with 4-5 attacks. It is generally much easier to defend against attacks on AC though, so I'd expect that a fair number of those attacks might miss. A Druid's damage is tougher to calculate since it could include spells and summons. In the right situation a Summoner can deliver absolutely ridiculous damage via stuff like smiting dire tigers. Those are attacks on regular AC which aren't very good at bypassing DR though, so the actual DPR will often fall well short of the sky high "potential" damage. With +5 guns or Force Bombs damage tends to be much more consistent and very difficult for foes to avoid.

I apologize then, I'm sorry if I was harsh. Nor did I mean to invalidate, my only point is we just don't know the whole situation.


Undone wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:

It's all word of mouth, we don't know and you know what people exaggerate. If you go back a few posts I said that a 2h fighyer at 9th can do that DPR in a round and has exceeded it a few times.

In fact at 11th I could probably do that with most dmg bases classes.

Prove it

Because the DPR olympics can't reach more than half those numbers without using animate dead or an animal.

Um how about a how about a primal hunter w/ a dead pet with his evo points put into the limbs evo 7 times (11th level). Now he can multiweapon fight with 16 kukries or he multiweapon 8 2handers to get better power attack from them. No I haven't mapped it out the exact best attack damage ratio but the above is how I roll with my character to give you a basis.

Note depending on how you interpret the natural attack rule, if it only effect the AC or you as well, you'll be more consistent with primary natural weapons than manufactured ones so of you went that route to get all primaries the str bonus would be full and not halved.


Caws Rorec wrote:

I am also having trouble seeing how the gunslinger is doing that much damage if the number you quoted is correct its hard to imagine even at that level.

Factoring in his class gunslinger 11

He should have 6 feats from levels

He should have 2 bonus feats from gunslinger.

So let us assume the gunslinger has the normal feats most people would take as a gunslinger.

Dead Aim (at his level it would be -3 on attacks for a +6 damage)
Rapid Reload (free reloading with cartridges on the pistol)

Let us also assume for whatever reason he has both barrels of his double barrel enchanted at +3 (yes double barrels function like double weapons)

Let us also assume he has a dexterity of 20 so a modifier of +5 which we would add to the damage with the gun.

...

More realistically he maybe took rapid shot for one more attack or in this case 2 more shots with the double barreled pistol, but that would end up looking more like this:

1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +11 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim -2 for rapid shot= +11
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +11 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim -2 for rapid shot= +11
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +6 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim -2 for rapid shot = +6
1d8+14 / 1d8+14 - firing at +1 (bab) + 5 (dexterity) +3 (mw properties) +1 for size -4 for firing both barrels in same turn -3 for deadly aim -2 for rapid shot = +1

Again assuming you hit everyone of your shots the damage would be 120 - 176...

I would add that he's probably using muskets and the Musket Master archetype, which grants a +1 bonus to damage at level 11 and the ability to reload a 2-handed firearm as a 1-handed one. And instead of +3 enhancement to weapon I'll say it's +1 flaming

So with the +6 dex belt the bonus to damage would be
+8(Dex mod) +1(Enhancement) +6(Dead Aim) +1(Musket Training) = 16

And using a double barreled musket that makes it
1d12+1d6+16/1d12+1d6+16 = 36-68 per attack
with 4 attacks that makes it: 144-272(with average 28 fire damage)

Musket master also lets you reload a two-handed firearm as a one-handed firearm, so it's a free action to reload with the Rapid Reload+catridges. If the DM ruled that he's only allowed one barrel reload per turn even with a free action then he could've had 4 +1 flaming double-barreled muskets and use Quick Draw to fire 4 shots in a single turn. There is already a precedent for full round attacks using Quick Draw using thrown weapons.

Just saying it's possible that he's not cheating.


Just have your DM to have a sneaky guy sneak around during a foggy day and stab him in the back. Seeing invisible people doesn't mean you see through concealment aka fog.

Or get him charged by someone with a reach weapon, preferably a lance, for the extra damage bonus on charge. With the reach, he won't be able to 5-foot-step far enough to do a full attack again without provoking AoO.

The last gunslinger in my party got shut down HARD when he was charged down by mounted kobold holding a lance.


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KJon86 wrote:

Just have your DM to have a sneaky guy sneak around during a foggy day and stab him in the back. Seeing invisible people doesn't mean you see through concealment aka fog.

Or get him charged by someone with a reach weapon, preferably a lance, for the extra damage bonus on charge. With the reach, he won't be able to 5-foot-step far enough to do a full attack again without provoking AoO.

The last gunslinger in my party got shut down HARD when he was charged down by mounted kobold holding a lance.

Worst post in the whole thread. Targeting him to kill him on purpose in order to prove some pecking order is very jerkish.


I'm just giving examples of how the damage output of a gunslinger can be mitigated by just having a melee dude stand next to him and as such he isn't as overpowered as some claim to be. I only mentioned the sneaking part as the original poster mentioned he wears goggles that see invisibility. And well it's always a general rule to everyone, allies and foes alike, to target the glass cannons first.

How is giving advice on how to deal with that build you're having a problem with jerkish?


KJon86 wrote:

I'm just giving examples of how the damage output of a gunslinger can be mitigated by just having a melee dude stand next to him and as such he isn't as overpowered as some claim to be. I only mentioned the sneaking part as the original poster mentioned he wears goggles that see invisibility. And well it's always a general rule to everyone, allies and foes alike, to target the glass cannons first.

How is giving advice on how to deal with that build you're having a problem with jerkish?

Apologies, I thought you were saying to kill the character off. As in gunning specifically for him so that the high dpr would be "fixed". I've seem that type of suggestion before as a kind of means to show the player who's really the boss.


I think there's some truth to the fact that PCs who stand out will be targeted, even if that's just being done by the campaign's villains as part of the roleplaying. If the Gun Goblin is pumping out 240 DPR and slaughtering everything in sight that's a big problem for the bad guys, and they might reasonably consider sending in some specialists of their own. That said, if you sneak up through the fog you'll probably be unable to sneak attack due to concealment. You also probably won't inflict enough damage to kill the Gunslinger with a single attack. There are also players who don't really care if their PC dies as they'll just whip up another at the same level with full WBL and possibly even the exact same build. IMO that's probably not a good cycle to get into, so the DM might have to step up and "just say No"

@Undone - I think 50 damage per hit and 60 damage per hit are at least in the same ballpark. The 15th level Barbarian I’ve seen in play most recently was a little under equipped as far as weapons go, and that probably accounts for the difference. Come and Get Me is very strong in my opinion, but to this point I haven't seen it become as disruptive as high level Gunslingers. I think the gap in attack accuracy between a Druid + Animal team and the Gunslinger is probably pretty wide though proving that out might require some spreadsheet work. Anyhow, even if PCs get their attack bonuses so high they can easily hit enemy AC it is fairly easy for the DM to raise AC, often without even raising CR much. Raising touch AC in rules legal ways is generally a lot tougher.

@Oxylion - Thanks for apologizing. I agree that we don’t know the whole situation, and I suspect that an “audit” of the Gunslinger in the OP’s game might well reduce the DPR and force the Gunslinger closer to melee where there’s more chance of a mishap. Maybe that will be enough to restore a sense of balance. If not I think it would be fair to consider harsher measures.


but even if the gunslinger has a 21,050GP reliable +1 flaming musket, the weapon will misfire on a 1-3 when using alchemical cartridges, and that doesn't really fit the concept of "[t]he goblin has several double-barreled guns." not that the calculation is wrong (although misfires should be factored in) but the means is wrong - the goblin would be better off to carry several non-magic double firearms, when one misfires drop it and grab another to avoid weapon explosions, while loading +1 flaming bullets (only 166GP a shot). expensive but doable if the cash is available.


At high levels Gunslingers get some abilities to avoid or suppress misfires. If a PC were using Quick Draw to cycle through multiple guns in the off hand for TWF I'd expect those guns to be either non-magical or of fairly low enchantment levels. Obviously this would be less problematic than the twin +5 double barreled pistols I saw in play before the weapon cord nerf, especially if the Gunslinger in question failed to pick up Clustered Shots.


Devilkiller wrote:
At high levels Gunslingers get some abilities to avoid or suppress misfires. If a PC were using Quick Draw to cycle through multiple guns in the off hand for TWF I'd expect those guns to be either non-magical or of fairly low enchantment levels. Obviously this would be less problematic than the twin +5 double barreled pistols I saw in play before the weapon cord nerf, especially if the Gunslinger in question failed to pick up Clustered Shots.

At level 5+ a mysterious stranger archetype gunslinger can ignore misfires CHR/day while at level 13 Musket Master and Pistolero archetype gunslingers only gain the "never misfire" ability with their respective weapon specialties. A level 11 gunslinger gains the deed expert loading which costs grit and prevents a broken firearm which misfires from exploding, however it still misfires, remains broken and the chance of misfire increases. Dwarven gunslingers have a FCB to decrease misfire chance and is thus the default race for organically grown (not created with levels) double barreled firearms using gunslingers. Other than that the ways to avoid/suppress misfires are magic like the reliability enchantment or the glorious slate spider (no misfires for only 10,000 GP, once per day for one minute, a double barreled firearm seems to need two of them - buy one for your favorite gunslinger because they darn well cannot afford to buy them for themselves).


The Gunslinger I've observed in play was a 15th level Pistolero who jumped into a campaign fully formed as a replacement PC for one who died, so she never suffered from a misfire chance. Initially the player was also adding precision damage to both shots in a volley and using weapon cords to reload both guns (since the nerf hadn't been issued yet)


Onyxlion wrote:
Undone wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:

It's all word of mouth, we don't know and you know what people exaggerate. If you go back a few posts I said that a 2h fighyer at 9th can do that DPR in a round and has exceeded it a few times.

In fact at 11th I could probably do that with most dmg bases classes.

Prove it

Because the DPR olympics can't reach more than half those numbers without using animate dead or an animal.

Um how about a how about a primal hunter w/ a dead pet with his evo points put into the limbs evo 7 times (11th level). Now he can multiweapon fight with 16 kukries or he multiweapon 8 2handers to get better power attack from them. No I haven't mapped it out the exact best attack damage ratio but the above is how I roll with my character to give you a basis.

Note depending on how you interpret the natural attack rule, if it only effect the AC or you as well, you'll be more consistent with primary natural weapons than manufactured ones so of you went that route to get all primaries the str bonus would be full and not halved.

So you proved my point. You required a second creature to reach that DPR.

The DPR given of over 200 requires an animal/edilon/undead by level 11. In addition you also had to use a class so broken that it has to be rewritten nerfed from scratch in unchained.


@Undone - Are you referring to the Summoner when you say "a class so broken that it has to be rewritten nerfed from scratch in unchained"? If so do you consider the Gunslinger (or at least some archetypes of it) broken too? If not is it because you believe the Gunslinger's DPR will be significantly lower or because the Summoner has such a wide variety of other spells and powers?


Undone wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:
Undone wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:

It's all word of mouth, we don't know and you know what people exaggerate. If you go back a few posts I said that a 2h fighyer at 9th can do that DPR in a round and has exceeded it a few times.

In fact at 11th I could probably do that with most dmg bases classes.

Prove it

Because the DPR olympics can't reach more than half those numbers without using animate dead or an animal.

Um how about a how about a primal hunter w/ a dead pet with his evo points put into the limbs evo 7 times (11th level). Now he can multiweapon fight with 16 kukries or he multiweapon 8 2handers to get better power attack from them. No I haven't mapped it out the exact best attack damage ratio but the above is how I roll with my character to give you a basis.

Note depending on how you interpret the natural attack rule, if it only effect the AC or you as well, you'll be more consistent with primary natural weapons than manufactured ones so of you went that route to get all primaries the str bonus would be full and not halved.

So you proved my point. You required a second creature to reach that DPR.

The DPR given of over 200 requires an animal/edilon/undead by level 11. In addition you also had to use a class so broken that it has to be rewritten nerfed from scratch in unchained.

I don't think you actually read what I wrote, you might want to go reread that again.

Also the hunter is broken? From the threads I've seen people consider it weak.

Edit: If you are speaking of summoner as the most broken class I also disagree with that it's only a little above average when used in low power, low stat, low wealth, and/or low level. At high levels/stats they fall behind, and are way behind in high wealth games. Any druid, cleric, or other 9-level caster stomps them hands down because of the above.

Shadow Lodge

Devilkiller wrote:

I feel that the Gunslinger class is indeed ridiculously broken. People can create many excuses for why the Gunslinger isn’t really so bad after all, but if it is doing 240 DPR in your game that sounds like a problem to me. Of course the DM can “fix things” by optimizing combat in various ways, standing on his head, or targeting the PC and intentionally frustrating his abilities. If the Gunslinger is making fellow PCs feel pointless and the DM has to adjust the entire campaign that seems off kilter to me.

One thing you should make sure of is that the goblin isn’t inflicting precision damage with both barrels on a “double shot”. I think this would fall under the volley rules which state you only get sneak attack on one ray of a Scorching Ray spell. If your DM is willing to use house rules I’d also highly suggest ruling that firing both barrels of a double barreled firearm should require a standard action or multiple attacks. That leaves the double barreled guns with a cool power for rounds where you can’t make a full attack without making them quite as ridiculously over the top. If the goblin has two guns you’ll also want to pay close attention to how they’re getting reloaded. People have already mentioned the weapon cord nerd, and I'll mention that it probably happened largely because of two gun exploits.

I suspect that my double barreled house rule is about as far as most DMs would be willing to go. I think it could also be interesting to change the rules for firearms or touch attacks in general though. For instance, if firearms could only ignore the first 10 points of combined armor and natural armor bonuses suddenly dragons would be tough again and going nuts with TWF, Deadly Aim and other penalty to hit for more damage schemes might not work out so well. Any DM who attempts such house rules would probably be forced to walk the plank though.

Of course there’s always the fact that Gunslingers don’t tend to have great Will saves. This is a big weakness and can also make them very dangerous to their...

1.IT has been proven gunslingers dont have the highest dpr due to the existance of misfires, just chek drp olimpics.

2.Sneak attack applies to each attack of double barrel as per raw, they are 2 separate attacks as per the dev comment. Still houseruling one per double fire is a fine houserule

3. Most ive seen best quickfix is +5 to hit instead of touch attack and elimitade exploding from firearms, but there are better, albeit more complex, houserules

4. Not everything is about dpr, for instance wizards are the best class and dont have the best dpr. For this reason gunslingers are a tier 3 class(good at one thing).

Shadow Lodge

Devilkiller wrote:
The Gunslinger I've observed in play was a 15th level Pistolero who jumped into a campaign fully formed as a replacement PC for one who died, so she never suffered from a misfire chance. Initially the player was also adding precision damage to both shots in a volley and using weapon cords to reload both guns (since the nerf hadn't been issued yet)

A high level gunslinger not suffering from misfire is as outrageus as a high level barbarian not suffering from fatigue (or hits). Precision damage does apply to both attacks, there is no such a thing as a volley for a gunslinger. The cords were nerfed indeed to probably his chars dpr may be cut by half unless he had taken 3 levels of alchemist or trouth the use of a feat(dont remember the exact name now, something like guns juggle)


ElementalXX wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
The Gunslinger I've observed in play was a 15th level Pistolero who jumped into a campaign fully formed as a replacement PC for one who died, so she never suffered from a misfire chance. Initially the player was also adding precision damage to both shots in a volley and using weapon cords to reload both guns (since the nerf hadn't been issued yet)
A high level gunslinger not suffering from misfire is as outrageus as a high level barbarian not suffering from fatigue (or hits). Precision damage does apply to both attacks, there is no such a thing as a volley for a gunslinger. The cords were nerfed indeed to probably his chars dpr may be cut by half unless he had taken 3 levels of alchemist or trouth the use of a feat(dont remember the exact name now, something like guns juggle)

Not suffering from misfire is called the Reliable Enchantment. Not suffering from fatigue is called tons of stuff but most popularly is cords of stubborn resolve(+Invulnerable Rager) or 1 Level of Oracle with the lame curse.


ElementalXX wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
The Gunslinger I've observed in play was a 15th level Pistolero who jumped into a campaign fully formed as a replacement PC for one who died, so she never suffered from a misfire chance. Initially the player was also adding precision damage to both shots in a volley and using weapon cords to reload both guns (since the nerf hadn't been issued yet)
A high level gunslinger not suffering from misfire is as outrageus as a high level barbarian not suffering from fatigue (or hits). Precision damage does apply to both attacks, there is no such a thing as a volley for a gunslinger. The cords were nerfed indeed to probably his chars dpr may be cut by half unless he had taken 3 levels of alchemist or trouth the use of a feat(dont remember the exact name now, something like guns juggle)
ugh. the wording of double barreled firearms is not consistent:
  • "This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack." same attack so precision damage added to an attack is only added once. of course gunslinger training type precision damage is added to damage rolls, not attacks, but sneak attack damage is added to attacks...
  • This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. same action but are they the same attack? can precision damage be added twice?
  • This twin-barreled shotgun can be shot either one barrel at a time, or both together as one attack. A double shot that fires bullets is inaccurate, and takes a –4 penalty on both attacks. A double shot that fires bullets targets only a single creature and increases the damage of each barrel to 2d6 points (Small) or 2d8 points (Medium) for a total of 4d6 or 4d8 points. so we have one attack which consists of both attacks (wtf?) and seemingly only one damage roll.

We cannot divine the intent of the author of the rules from the simple language of the rules when the rules are such a mess. AFAIK there is no clarification from the game designers of whether firing both barrels of a double barreled firearm should be treated as two hit rolls with one damage roll or two separate hit and damage rolls. 3.5 had the volley rule which covered this type of double attack and only allowed precision damage to be added once, but PF doesn't have the volley rule. Either reading is consistent with the language from the description of double barreled firearms, but importing the volley rule from 3.5 keeps double barreled firearms from being overwhelmingly powerful so I recommend doing so while acknowledging that doing so might not the designers' intent.

And yes, high level gunslingers (with the right archetype) not risking misfire is pretty strong, but it is far from the only problem high level characters have - for instance a level 17 barbarian gains tireless rage and doesn't suffer from fatigue anymore.


Gunslingers, if optimized, can be big damage dealers HOWEVER AT A GREAT COST:

1) The time and money to craft those alchemical cartridges can hamper a gunslinger; buying them even moreso. If he's not using them, it's easier but he is then using action resources to reload.

2) Unless they manage to reload as a free action, they will be spending action resources to reload.

3) Misfires hurt

4) Guns are expensive. Guns is 95% of the entire class. All it takes is a simple Sleight of Hand, Steal, Disarm, Sunder, etc. and you just defeated the Gunslinger without even damaging them. If they have multiple guns, chances are their wealth is weak and, thus, their gear is weak.

We joke with out current 9th-level Gunslinger player that one disarm and he's screwed. He says he pulls out his Pepperbox, at which point one Sunder and he's screwed.

Yes, Deflect Arrows is a pain as well. Their last adventure involved kuo-toa monks and boy was he grumbling at his first attack always being an auto-miss, he was forced to waste a bullet and forced to not use Deadshot since it only uses one bullet. Shields of Arrow Deflecting for non-monks are also a pain.

Shadow Lodge

Damiancrr wrote:
ElementalXX wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
The Gunslinger I've observed in play was a 15th level Pistolero who jumped into a campaign fully formed as a replacement PC for one who died, so she never suffered from a misfire chance. Initially the player was also adding precision damage to both shots in a volley and using weapon cords to reload both guns (since the nerf hadn't been issued yet)
A high level gunslinger not suffering from misfire is as outrageus as a high level barbarian not suffering from fatigue (or hits). Precision damage does apply to both attacks, there is no such a thing as a volley for a gunslinger. The cords were nerfed indeed to probably his chars dpr may be cut by half unless he had taken 3 levels of alchemist or trouth the use of a feat(dont remember the exact name now, something like guns juggle)
Not suffering from misfire is called the Reliable Enchantment. Not suffering from fatigue is called tons of stuff but most popularly is cords of stubborn resolve(+Invulnerable Rager) or 1 Level of Oracle with the lame curse.

Reliable doesnt help unless you dont wanna manke iteratives. Vanilla Pistol has 1 misfire and becomes 1-2 with alchemichal cartridge. Reliable less it to 1. You can invest in greater realiable if you really want but then you have paid for a +4 weapon to make it work like a +1 weapon , a fair trade in my opinion. And if you use double pistols no enchantment is gonna help you remove misfires.

Interestingly you can "avoid" misfires by dipping in bladebound magus and using a "black blade musket axe" which is inmune to the broken condition.

Shadow Lodge

cnetarian wrote:
ElementalXX wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
The Gunslinger I've observed in play was a 15th level Pistolero who jumped into a campaign fully formed as a replacement PC for one who died, so she never suffered from a misfire chance. Initially the player was also adding precision damage to both shots in a volley and using weapon cords to reload both guns (since the nerf hadn't been issued yet)
A high level gunslinger not suffering from misfire is as outrageus as a high level barbarian not suffering from fatigue (or hits). Precision damage does apply to both attacks, there is no such a thing as a volley for a gunslinger. The cords were nerfed indeed to probably his chars dpr may be cut by half unless he had taken 3 levels of alchemist or trouth the use of a feat(dont remember the exact name now, something like guns juggle)
ugh. the wording of double barreled firearms is not consistent:
  • "This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack." same attack so precision damage added to an attack is only added once. of course gunslinger training type precision damage is added to damage rolls, not attacks, but sneak attack damage is added to attacks...
  • This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. same action but are they the same attack? can precision damage be added twice?
  • This twin-barreled shotgun can be shot either one barrel at a time, or both together as one attack. A double shot that fires bullets is inaccurate, and takes a –4 penalty on both attacks. A double shot that fires bullets targets only a single creature and increases the damage of each barrel to 2d6 points (Small) or 2d8 points (Medium) for a total of 4d6 or 4d8 points. so we have one attack which consists of both attacks (wtf?) and seemingly only one damage roll.

We cannot divine the intent...

Stephen Mc Farland has clarified is two attacks per double shot on double musket and double pistol.(dont have the link at the moment)

Double Musket lets you make 2 attacks per each attack you can do, double pistols lets you make one attack per each action. Meaning one attack per pistol per full attack

eg.
-If i can make 3 attack and i use double musket i can make up to 6 attacks at a penalty.
-If i use one double pistol i can make up to 4 at a penalty.
-If i use 2 double pistols i can make up to 5 attacks, i can make up to 7 if i have Improved TWF and Greater TWF.

All fo this attacks apply the normal madifiers such as precision damage or sneak attack and enchantments.

Note: You need shenanigans to be able to use twf with pistols.

Double shotgun however does specify you shoot both as "one attack"


Quiche Lisp wrote:

I'm playing in a campaign (Skulls & Shackles) where we have reached 11th level.

Our GM is something of a math genius, and seems able to tackle Pathfinder at that level of play.

We have a blast playing pirates, and I'm personally very happy with my magus PC.

I don't have a problem, per se, but I'm taken aback by the amount of damage our resident gunslinger (goblin 11th level gunslinger) is dishing out every round : something like 240 without critical !

It's an instant kill for every NPC in the campaign so far, and it has put our barbarian fighter cultist of Gorum to shame - which is the real problem here, as the barbarian's player has become very disheartened to be the goblin's player little b~+## in every combat situation.

I think this amount of damage is ridiculous, but then I've rarely played at this level.

Is the gunslinger class ridiculously broken ?

Short Answer: Yes it absolutely is, and To make it worse, the higher level you go, the worse it will be.

Long Answer: I just looked at all the CR 10-11 monsters on D20PFSRD, with VERY FEW exceptions the touch AC's are 10 points lower than the regular AC's (as CR's increase, the disparity becomes even more severe, with very few monsters with a touch AC over 10) So if we assume both your Barbarian and your gunslinger have the same to hit bonus (the gunslinger probably has a better to hit since he doesn't need STR, or CON just DEX and the Barbarian needs CON, STR, a bit of DEX), the gunslinger's 3rd shot has the same to hit chance as the barbarian's 1st. If we assume they both get the same rolls, the barbarian will hit once, the gunslinger will hit 3 times. Gunslingers get automatic DEX damage to their attacks, making them even better than archers, and at 13th level they don't ever misfire.

Quiche Lisp wrote:
Is the gunslinger's player - a notorious optimizer prone to dubious rules exploits and interpretations - taking advantage of our GM ?

He may be, but he really doesn't need to, they really are that broken. I mean we all know how powerful archers are, imagine an archer that gets DEX to damage and gets to use touch AC. Sounds crazy right? Welcome to the Gunslinger.


Barachiel Shina wrote:

Gunslingers, if optimized, can be big damage dealers HOWEVER AT A GREAT COST:

1) The time and money to craft those alchemical cartridges can hamper a gunslinger; buying them even moreso. If he's not using them, it's easier but he is then using action resources to reload.

At full price 1,200 for 100 alchemical shots is hardly an issue past 2nd level.

Barachiel Shina wrote:
2) Unless they manage to reload as a free action, they will be spending action resources to reload.

Rapid Reload at first level... Not too difficult to get it to a free action.

Barachiel Shina wrote:


3) Misfires hurt

They stop iterative attacks, 1 grit and you're fine for the next full attack.

Barachiel Shina wrote:
4) Guns are expensive. Guns is 95% of the entire class.

Yes it is, but since you don't need any stat except DEX and some minor WIS, you save a lot on those types of items. You're ranged so you really won't be in the thick of things, all you need to spend money on is guns.

Barachiel Shina wrote:
All it takes is a simple Sleight of Hand, Steal, Disarm, Sunder, etc. and you just defeated the Gunslinger without even damaging them. If they have multiple guns, chances are their wealth is weak and, thus, their gear is weak.

Which is the same problem as everyone else. A simple weapon cord stops most of this, and oh yeah, you're a ranged fighter, so people don't get close to you very often.

Barachiel Shina wrote:
We joke with out current 9th-level Gunslinger player that one disarm and he's screwed. He says he pulls out his Pepperbox, at which point one Sunder and he's screwed.

Yeah, you know why it's a joke? Because it never happens.

Barachiel Shina wrote:
Yes, Deflect Arrows is a pain as well. Their last adventure involved kuo-toa monks and boy was he grumbling at his first attack always being an auto-miss, he was forced to waste a bullet and forced to not use Deadshot since it only uses one bullet. Shields of Arrow Deflecting for non-monks are also a pain.

But since he uses touch AC's it's okay if his first attack misses because every single iterative will hit.

I'm really amazed that people can't see the huge problem gunslingers cause. If you don't know by now how powerful archers are it's because you're not playing the game. An archer that gets DEX to damage and goes against touch AC is stupid powerful. Losing iteratives every once in a while due to a misfire is hardly a balancing factor.


Devilkiller wrote:
@Undone - Are you referring to the Summoner when you say "a class so broken that it has to be rewritten nerfed from scratch in unchained"? If so do you consider the Gunslinger (or at least some archetypes of it) broken too? If not is it because you believe the Gunslinger's DPR will be significantly lower or because the Summoner has such a wide variety of other spells and powers?

Yes and when I saw him using the pet with tentacles I assumed it was a summoner. You'll also note the edilon is going to get rewritten and likely be unable to use manufactured weapons. Neither a druid or the cleric have an equal to simulacrum spam. It's not even close to comparable.

The gunslinger isn't broken. It cannot copy the tarrasque, a solar, a balor, or repeatedly copy a wizard/cleric/druid. Shockingly simulacrum, maze, and dominate monster become permanent problems and make the game unplayable. Especially since an echoing metamagic rod medium costs 54k for 3 additional dominate monsters a day. A persistant spell rod costs even less. Don't let the DC loss fool you the level decrease on these spells is beyond the edges of broken.

It's damage is high but again in practical games the barbarian hits on a 2 for it's full come and get me damage (Typically 3 additional attacks minimum) which are at much higher modifiers.

Quote:
I'm really amazed that people can't see the huge problem gunslingers cause. If you don't know by now how powerful archers are it's because you're not playing the game. An archer that gets DEX to damage and goes against touch AC is stupid powerful. Losing iteratives every once in a while due to a misfire is hardly a balancing factor

If you think killing things quickly breaks the game I have nothing to discuss. The entire build loses to a singular spell which cannot be bypassed only dispelled (which you do not have access to) making his 11th level DPR ZERO in situations where the target is a competent threat.


Onyxlion wrote:

It's all word of mouth, we don't know and you know what people exaggerate. If you go back a few posts I said that a 2h fighyer at 9th can do that DPR in a round and has exceeded it a few times.

In fact at 11th I could probably do that with most dmg bases classes.

Show me the barbarian build that can do 240 damage in one round without a critical hit.

It really doesn't matter which class you try to out do a gunslinger with, unless it uses touch AC's it's not going to be as consistently high.


Jodokai wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:

It's all word of mouth, we don't know and you know what people exaggerate. If you go back a few posts I said that a 2h fighyer at 9th can do that DPR in a round and has exceeded it a few times.

In fact at 11th I could probably do that with most dmg bases classes.

Show me the barbarian build that can do 240 damage in one round without a critical hit.

It really doesn't matter which class you try to out do a gunslinger with, unless it uses touch AC's it's not going to be as consistently high.

Come and get me drastically exceeds this DPR in actual practical games.

Simulacrum spam has infinite DPR.
Undead spam has DPR in the >400-500 range.
Critical profiles are part of damage calculations, falcatas are higher damage weapons than x4 guns.
Your DPR is zero vs wind spells.


Undone wrote:

Come and get me drastically exceeds this DPR in actual practical games.

Simulacrum spam has infinite DPR.
Undead spam has DPR in the >400-500 range.
Critical profiles are part of damage calculations, falcatas are higher damage weapons than x4 guns.
Your DPR is zero vs wind spells.

First, show me the come and get me build.

Second, yes if you go out of your way to break the game it is possible. The trouble is you're going out of your way to break it, whereas with a gunslinger you just have to play the class as written.

EDIT: The original post said 240 without crits. So show me another build that can do 240 without crits.

...and the Come and get me's DPR is zero against a flying wizard. We can play that silly game all day.


Undone wrote:

Come and get me drastically exceeds this DPR in actual practical games.

Simulacrum spam has infinite DPR.
Undead spam has DPR in the >400-500 range.
Critical profiles are part of damage calculations, falcatas are higher damage weapons than x4 guns.
Your DPR is zero vs wind spells.

The more I read your post, the more I realize how every line is just poor logic. I've covered the Simulacrum and Undead spam with it's possible to break the game.

Facultas use regular AC, so only a formula that doesn't take enemy AC into account could come anywhere near the DPR of a gun, even including in crit chance.

In my 5 years of playing Pathfinder I've come across wind spells exactly once in a published adventure, and I'm pretty sure it was Jade Regent. The Gunslinger got around it perfectly while the Cavalier was knocked on his butt. Even taken that into account, I can find MANY more ways to neuter your melee barbarian and your undead spam, and they'd be ways that you'll find far more often in "regular adventuring" and not something the GM had to cook up just so you could stop 1 shotting every creature thrown at you.

Shadow Lodge

Jodokai wrote:
Undone wrote:

Come and get me drastically exceeds this DPR in actual practical games.

Simulacrum spam has infinite DPR.
Undead spam has DPR in the >400-500 range.
Critical profiles are part of damage calculations, falcatas are higher damage weapons than x4 guns.
Your DPR is zero vs wind spells.

First, show me the come and get me build.

Second, yes if you go out of your way to break the game it is possible. The trouble is you're going out of your way to break it, whereas with a gunslinger you just have to play the class as written.

EDIT: The original post said 240 without crits. So show me another build that can do 240 without crits.

...and the Come and get me's DPR is zero against a flying wizard. We can play that silly game all day.

Dpr olimpics, press: CTR-F, look for the link in this thread,

Shadow Lodge

Jodokai wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:


3) Misfires hurt

They stop iterative attacks, 1 grit and you're fine for the next full attack.

...

40 to 80% is chace to get at least one misfire on a full attack. I would agree if gunslingers had much more grit but they dont. Good thing you can replensh it. A misfire is almost like a retroactive slow, since you cant full attack while quick clearing


The problem with gunslingers isn't actually touch AC (it is but it's not the cause), it's the cheap patch to AC they did when they created BAB. AC used to run -10 to 10 (actually went to -12, which was best) and players didn't get constantly increasing bonuses to attack. When they moved to 3e and gave players BAB they needed monster AC to grow similarly. Rather than give them armor (reserved for actual armor) or shield or dodge or some other named bonus type they created "natural armor" to represent "this monster should be a CR X challenge". A wolf has +2 NA and a bear has +6 NA, but they have about the same protection from swords (fur). Anything that bypasses natural armor ignores a (purely metagame) balancing mechanism they introduced and touch attacks do exactly that. It was well known in 3.5 (see Wraithstrike wands) so it's a little sad they didn't catch it here.

If you really want to balance them the two best methods I've seen are to use armor as DR (this doesn't bring the gunslinger down, just lets everyone else target close to touch too) or to have the gunslinger target flat-footed instead of touch (it's still an advantage, just less of one). This keeps the metagame balancing aspect in play while still giving guns a unique niche. Presumably with the same wording they currently have for touch attacks so every rogue doesn't buy a gun for infinite sneak attack, but it's not like the rogue couldn't use the help. This would be the "the bullet goes so fast you can't dodge but they still have to hit a vulnerable spot" fluff instead of "the bullet only needs to hit you to transfer its force to you" which I never liked, only because it doesn't work for all blunt weapons despite the logic being the same.


ElementalXX wrote:
...

1. It's Radney-MacFarland, not McFarland

2. This is presumably the post you are referring to

3. That post dates from the playtest of Ultimate Combat and doesn't give us an answer about where the balance wound up after testing.

4. The answer Stephen Radney-MacFarland gave was that it is one attack with two attack rolls, with no indication of how many times precision damage is applied.

Shadow Lodge

Quiche Lisp wrote:


Short Answer: Yes it absolutely is, and To make it worse, the higher level you go, the worse it will be.

Long Answer: I just looked at all the CR 10-11 monsters on D20PFSRD, with VERY FEW exceptions the touch AC's are 10 points lower than the regular AC's (as CR's increase, the disparity becomes even more severe, with very few monsters with a touch AC over 10) So if we assume both your Barbarian and your gunslinger have the same to hit bonus (the gunslinger probably has a better to hit since he doesn't need STR, or CON just DEX and the Barbarian needs CON, STR, a bit of DEX), the gunslinger's 3rd shot has the same to hit chance as the barbarian's 1st. If we assume they both get the same rolls, the barbarian will hit once, the gunslinger will hit 3 times. Gunslingers get automatic DEX damage to their attacks, making them even better than archers, and at 13th level they don't ever misfire.

A barb could or not hit more than a gunslinger because misfires. Also said barbarian has spent less feats on not sucking at firearms so he has better damage, while the gunslinger has better attack rolls. High level characters are usually powerful, really its not that surprising a gunslinger spends 13 levels overcoming firearms s~**tiness. Also a barb has much better defenses and doesnt provoke on all of his attacks.

so its one versus the other some has pros and cons


Barbarians / Fighters, etc have to hit the actual AC so their iteratives usually don't hit.
Look at an Ancient Dragon 45+ AC, 6 Touch AC...absolutely easy meat for any gunslinger.
Touch AC for gunslingers is an absolutely stupid mechanic...I agree Flatfooted should be what is targeted and do away with the 1st range band mechanic


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:

First, show me the come and get me build.

Second, yes if you go out of your way to break the game it is possible. The trouble is you're g oing out of your way to break it, whereas with a gunslinger you just have to play the class as written.

EDIT: The original post said 240 without crits. So show me another build that can do 240 without crits.

...and the Come and get me's DPR is zero against a flying wizard. We can play that silly game all day.

I don't know what to say. You can buy permanent flying items if a caster doesn't cast on you. You can also spend a whopping 750g on a potion of fly. There is no recourse to fickle winds other than dispel or die.

Spoiler:

Simple, lazy and I'm sure I could do better but here.
20PB Level 12 Human Barb Urban barb/invul rager
STR: 20 (+3 Level bumps, +6 Belt, +8 Rage)
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 7
WIS: 11
CHA: 7

+2 Furious Courageous Weapon ~32k
+6 Str Belt 36k
Boots of speed 12k
Scarlet and Green Cabochon Ioun stone flawed 8k
+1 to hit Ioun Stone 4k
Remaining gold on whatever.

Feats
H: Power attack
1: Reckless Rage
3: Combat Reflexes
5: Weapon Focus
7: Extra Rage Power
9: Extra Rage Power
11: Dazing Assault

Rage Powers
2: Superstitious
4: Reckless Rage
6: Witch hunter
7: Lesser Elemental rage
8: Elemental Rage
9: Unexpected Strike
10: Internal Fortitude
12: Come and get me

To hit 32/32/27/22 and 32 on all AOO's. (12/7/2, Str 13, Weapon 4, Reckless Rage 4, Ioun stone 1, Weapon focus 1, Haste 1, 1 Urban barb Power attack -5)

Target AC on a CR 12 is a whopping 27. So you need a 5 on the last iterative.

Damage Average 56 ( 19 Str, 15 Power attack, 7 elemental damage, 4 Weapon, 4 Witch hunter, 7 Greatsword)

On average you should use all 3 AOO's for a total of 7 attacks of which 6 hit on a 2. Which is 336 damage with another attack adding to 392. This character has an actual DPR of 335.16 only counting the hit on a 2 attacks, for an actual DPR of 384.44. More than blowing you out of the water and I was too lazy to take improved crit or anything good. This isn't even a good build and it crushes the ever loving heck out of 240 points. With merely haste and never using CaGM or unexpected strike you'd have a DPR of ~216 before a single AOO.

Calculated here

Quote:
The more I read your post, the more I realize how every line is just poor logic. I've covered the Simulacrum and Undead spam with it's possible to break the game.

And yet somehow you think the gunslinger doing more damage is more disruptive than this we're really done here. If your response is "You can just say you can't do that" then my response is "So can I." Several spells annihilate the possibility of playing anything. Doing more damage which can be completely negated by a single level 5 spell is no where close to the same.

Quote:


Facultas use regular AC, so only a formula that doesn't take enemy AC into account could come anywhere near the DPR of a gun, even including in crit chance.

AC = 2 on the dice roll. Touch AC does not raise your damage, only ease of hitting. Come and get me averages +3 attacks a round and even more vs difficult targets such as dragons. I'm too lazy to increase the dex or take the extra AOO rage power which increases the potential more.

Quote:
Look at an Ancient Dragon 45+ AC, 6 Touch AC...absolutely easy meat for any gunslinger.

an ancient red dragon is CR 19. Using the above barbarian progressed to 19th (or even 16th) he hits his last iterative on a 2 vs it's ac 38, not 45.

Shadow Lodge

cnetarian wrote:
ElementalXX wrote:
...

1. It's Radney-MacFarland, not McFarland

2. This is presumably the post you are referring to

3. That post dates from the playtest of Ultimate Combat and doesn't give us an answer about where the balance wound up after testing.

4. The answer Stephen Radney-MacFarland gave was that it is one attack with two attack rolls, with no indication of how many times precision damage is applied.

ah yeah mistyped the name, anyway it probably the closest you will get to a devs answer. As of now they are 2 separate attack roll, with 2 separate damage rolls (Derved from the dead shot comment). Thats a pretty close indication its two attacks, however if we disregard the creators comments then yeah it becomes pretty much totally unclear how the attacks go. Ill stick with the comments until its someone hopefully addresses it


Gunslinger...yeah.

First, their guns are bad. Anything less than a musket is going to (at higher levels) provoke AoOs from everything they're getting touch AC on. With all the right combos you can iterative attack okay (I don't tend to factor Grit or misfires because both are low probability) and deal...okay damage.

Modern guns are an option, but that takes away even more of the gunslinger's usefulness while handing it to a certain fighter archetype that gets dex-to-damage earlier.

And that's our first pause, see, dex-to-damage is cool and all but compared to two-handing any melee weapon it won't keep up the damage. "but I hit more!" you say? Sometimes, maybe. Most proper-built melee classes (who tend to be less MAD than gunslinger) will have a better attack bonus, and the higher you go in levels the more likely it is that AC just doesn't factor in the first place. Monsters are easy to hit, as they get bigger they mostly get better at soaking hits or throwing you miss chances in the first place.

Most builds, in practice against randomly-selected monsters, tend to favor melee. It's a mix, of course, the gunslinger isn't as weak as people often complain it is, but it's not the unstoppable force some folks seem to think it is just because they sometimes hit on touch AC.

And gunslinger is overhead, SO much overhead. Gotta get guns, gotta get ammo, gotta carry it all, gotta be close enough to hit touch AC but far enough to avoid getting ginsu'd, gotta keep up with the elven archer who's got better range and a lot more lovely special bows. Gotta make sure you picked the RIGHT class because if you went musket master and get yourself a six-gun, too bad.

I mean it's cute, and if you do it right it's still playable, but "unstoppable juggernaut o' doom" it ain't.


Gunslingers are really not overpowered. As said before, I am playing one and our barbarian dishes out much more serious damage. I mean, my maximum damage is kinda low for his average damage! And he has no "Come and Get Me!". Just superstitious barbarian with an earthbreaker. And I don't want to speak about the witch, cleric or sorcerer in the group. No, not really OP.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
The problem with gunslingers isn't actually touch AC (it is but it's not the cause), it's the cheap patch to AC they did when they created BAB. AC used to run -10 to 10 (actually went to -12, which was best) and players didn't get constantly increasing bonuses to attack.

Technically they did, you just didn't see it as such. THac0 for fighters dropped by 1 per level of fighter you had. So a level 5 fighter had a Thac0 of 15. Priest types dropped slower having a pause at level 4, 6, 9 and 12 for example. Mages dropped the slowest at once every three levels, while rogues dropped about every other level if i recall correctly.

What really did the difference was the strength chart then to now. Then a strength of 7~12 netted no penalties or bonuses to attack or damage. 13~15 provided a +1 to hit but no bonus to damage. Sixteen was 1 for each, 17 2 each and 18 was 2 to hit and 3 damage. The fighter extended scale increased this after 50% going to +3 each then 3/4 3/5 and finally 4/6 for double aught.

Quite frankly what 3e really did was allowed for stat bonus inflation (met originally and perhaps ironically to help retard the desire for really high stats due to bonuses being easier to get) and hit point inflation with the changes to constitution and bonus hit points.

The fact that the spell damage did not keep up with these changes and that so much changed from a bellcurve scale to a linear scale didn't help matters.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Remember that dealing damage is pretty much the only thing a gunslinger can do. As a magus, you have more options and can match or exceed his damage on a situational basis. Also keep in mind that Adventure Paths assume characters will NOT be optimized. Your GM should be adjusting the encounters accordingly. Even something as simple as giving the enemies maximum hitpoints can help.


Undone wrote:


I don't know what to say. You can buy permanent flying items if a caster doesn't cast on you. You can also spend a whopping 750g on a potion of fly. There is no recourse to fickle winds other than dispel or die.

It's a level 5 Spell, 9th level caster. At 9th level there are tons of ways for a caster to stop melee attacks. It's a crap argument.

Undone wrote:
And yet somehow you think the gunslinger doing more damage is more disruptive than this we're really done here. If your response is "You can just say you can't do that" then my response is "So can I." Several spells annihilate the possibility of playing anything. Doing more damage which can be completely negated by a single level 5 spell is no where close to the same.

The difference is in my 30+ years of gaming, I've seen this abused exactly ZERO times. In the last 4 years I've been playing Pathfinder, every gunslinger I've ever played with created this issue. In the former, it's an abuse. Everyone knows it's an abuse and people do it for that. The gunslinger creates problems just by playing the character the way it was made.

Now let's get into your Barbarian. By your build while raging he has 161hp. In order to get his 3 AoO he has to be attacked first. A quick look at the CR 11 monsters, pick one. Elder Elemental? 120 damage in one round after DR. Cloud Giant, your barbarian is dead after one round, and that's BEFORE the rage drops.

The to hit modifiers you posted are also when the Barbarian isn't using Power Attack or Dazing Assault so he's doing a whopping Weapon+20+1d6 Damage. Add Power Attack and Dazing Assault. With those penalties added in your to hit is 22/17/12.

Now we go back to our CR 11 monsters and Cloud Giant's AC is 25 10% miss chance on his first attack, 20% on his second and 60% miss chance on his last... The giant's touch touch AC is 9.

So let's compare that to the Gunslinger 12th level

Spoiler:

Str 9,
Dex 23,
Con 12,
Int 7,
Wis 16,
Cha 7

Feats
Deadly Aim,
Point-blank Shot,
Precise Shot,
Rapid Reload,
Rapid Shot,
Reckless Aim,
Signature Deed

Gear
+1 reliable, greater pistol, alchemical cartridge (paper)


33k on a gun and it destroys your barbarian.
4 attacks 5% miss chance (+16/+16/+11/+6) on all of them and they each do 1d8+17 +3d6, with a zero chance of misfire.

Touch AC is stupidly broken.

EDIT: Let me make it clear, that I did that with a magic gun. That's it, no other magic items at all. I spent 33k and 5 minutes and made the most powerful non-caster in the game. I mean use a double barrel pistol add the +6 DEX belt a couple of +1 other things, and you can double that damage with the same 5% miss chance.

Man the more I think about it, how can you guys not see it? An ARCHER with touch arrows and DEX to damage? Really? You don't see how game breaking that is?

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