OK...so we just wrapped up tonight's playtest.
We did "arena" style combats against a range of creature types, starting at 8th level, and leveling up every two encounters to 11th level.
The first few encounters we did where against a Nessian Warhound...2 Succubus. and a large white Dragon....
While the Keneticist & Occultist where one shotting (actually...two shotting in most cases), and the Psychic and Spiritualist where doing respectable damage (Mesmerist was no show)...the Medium spent most of the time with nothing significant to do, and spent most rounds holding action.
I attempted to use the wisp against the Dragon (the only ranged thing I could do)....he simply ignored the wisp.
As we went to level up to 10th level, I took a smoke break, and considered how the character was going. I realized that my concept of what the class was....didn't actually match what the class was.
I was approaching my design/concept as a character that could be whatever was needed in a specific situation....but as the class is currently, it's a 3/4 BA melee combatant that has some minor flexible tweeks/versatility that it can apply in very situational cases.
So I re-assigned my ability scores & feats, and as quickly as possible adjusted the character for a more melee focused build.
Our next encounter was a gang involving a Bodak(unhallowed/advanced) and two morg....the only useful thing I managed to contribute was using Beseech to do an area affect damage....after everyone else had really softened them up.
We then encountered a Mummy/Monk & Stone Giant necromancer...as was becoming the norm...the Keneticist and Occultist dropped their HP low in one or two shot's, then the Psychic and Spiritualist finished them off.
All of my attempts to land spells failed (they made their saves no problem), and more often than not I couldn't land hits, even with Strength/Dexterity based spirits in play.
Finale encounter of the evening was an Elite/Fire purple worm...at which point we had leveled up to 11th level. Even going as a primarily melee character...I needed an 18 or higher on the die to hit....and had nothing else to contribute.
At this point I'm rather frustrated with the class....I either simply don't get how to build an effective character with it (most likely)..
and/or It's conceptually not what originally attracted me....
As I am the one that pushed for the group to participate in the play-test...I'm kind of stuck tuffing it out and going one more round next weekend....but I wish I had called a different class at this point....
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What were your stats/feats like? My level 6 Medium has stats very similar to my level 6 Stonelord (higher to-hit but lower damage, but more attacks due to the Bear + Blade of Mercy + Enforcer + Hurtful combo).
What exactly were you expecting of the class? If we can isolate what you DID want, we can maybe try and work towards that.
What were your stats/feats like? My level 6 Medium has stats very similar to my level 6 Stonelord (higher to-hit but lower damage, but more attacks due to the Bear + Blade of Mercy + Enforcer + Hurtful combo).
What exactly were you expecting of the class? If we can isolate what you DID want, we can maybe try and work towards that.
Ability scores started out at....
Abilities: Str 11 (+0) Dex 14 (+2) Con 12 (+1) Int 12 (+1)Wis 13* (+1) Cha 14/16 (+3)Feats: Harrower, Imp Innit, Extra Spirit,
At this concept, I was picturing a Harrower...that could channel whatever spirits where needed to "fill the holes" so to speak. Need a caster, I can do that....need a rogue....I can do that too.
Took the Ancestral weapon trait(Rapier) so that I had a weapon option that was useful.
However, given the low spell casting/DC...3/4 BA and lack of combat focus, she was more or less useless in most situations.
Later I switched Str to 14, Con to 13, Dex to 12, dumped Wis to 11, kept Int & Cha as is.
Took medium armor.
And focused just on the spirits that seemed in line with the Eldest (supposed to be one of the children that where sent to the first world to serve they fey).....didn't actually make much difference overall though. I still found myself faced with either doing things that would trigger AOO that I probably wouldn't survive...or nothing...
Hmm, a purple worm (great worm with fire energy ability or no) has 26 AC. A level 11 medium with a Strength spirit has a +13 to hit, with your Strength, no enhancement bonuses from weapon or amulet of mighty fist, no flanks, and no buffs. But that still should hit on a 13. Even if it was advanced template as well, you would hit on a 17, and those assumptions of 14 Str, no magic items, and no buffs were extremely low for level 11. Is it at all possible you made a math error somewhere in calculating your attack bonus? (EDIT: It may have been only a +1 though if it was advanced)
EDIT: Ah, and you had 14 Strength, so that would mean to hit on an 18 it needed at least 31 AC, assuming no enhancements or flanks. If it had 31 AC, that would have been really hard for the kineticist to hit too unless using touch (and the energy great worm purple worms do have SR to contend with even if so).
"Elite Fire Worm" is what the GM said....not sure what all that entails ;)
BA +8, +2 Str,+1 MW, +1 trait, +3 Strength spirit (Cyclone)= 15
No magic item buffs (we are testing the classes "as is"...as we don't tend to do a lot of magic items anyway).
Also keeping in mind that the Keneticist, Occultist, and Psychic had the critter dead in two rounds.
Really what is my 1D8 + 5 compared to the 78 points of damage the Keneticist did in one attack...
"Elite Fire Worm" is what the GM said....not sure what all that entails ;)
BA +8, +2 Str,+1 MW, +1 trait, +3 Strength spirit (Cyclone)= 15
No magic item buffs (we are testing the classes "as is"...as we don't tend to do a lot of magic items anyway).Also keeping in mind that the Keneticist, Occultist, and Psychic had the critter dead in two rounds.
Really what is my 1D8 + 5 compared to the 78 points of damage the Keneticist did in one attack...
Interesting. Let me see if I gather correctly, then:
The foe was some beasty that had 33 AC (the average AC of a CR 18 monster, as it turns out) since you needed 15 + 18 = 3 to hit, in a fight against 5 level 11 PCs.
Furthermore, the party was not allowed to have any magic items for this fight.
I believe that this actually right here is the cause of the inaccuracy. Under those conditions, even a fighter (and Irori knows if they can do one thing, it's hit AC) with those ability scores and maxed out greater focus and weapon training would have only +18 and need a 15 to hit that worm.
Honestly, if he wasn't using touch AC blasts (in which case damage would be lower and SR would be an issue), I am more surprised that the kineticist was hitting than I am that you were missing, nighttree my friend. Do you know if he was using touch AC blasts like cold or electricity? If not and he was just plain hitting AC 33 with other blasts, can you possibly get the kineticist player to share his build with us (or just with me, since I created kineticist too)? Hitting AC 33 consistently at level 11 is no small feat with no magic items.
The Keneticist is Earth/Fire (not sure if those are touch ???)
I do know he was using "burn" and concerned about how long he could keep it up....so to speak....
Had a duel blast ability....
BTW...since you are also in charge of the Keneticist...he does not share in the opinion that they need full BA.
In all cases he has had no problem landing attacks (and yes, I'm sure he's not cheating)and is a mix of happy and guilty about how the class is performing.
Near as I can tell the worm had an AC in the range of 30 ( I remember a 29 missing...and a 33 hitting).
The GM said the CR was 14, which is high for 11th level characters...but as the Keneticist and Occultist more or less jointly one shotted every encounter, he was looking for the threshold.
Found it http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/unique-monsters/cr-14/cindermaw-the-clan-e ater
Furthermore, the party was not allowed to have any magic items for this fight.
No, not at all...in fact the GM has given everyone license to spend appropriate moneys/level on magic items.
That's more a part of my own play style (as a graduate of the Raistlin Majere Tower of High Sorcery)than anything. If I need magic items to survive...then I am a failure ;)
I want to know what a class can do without magic items.
As they come and go depending on the AP, they never figure into my opinions/build of a class and it's abilities.
Besides...I'm the first one to sneer when my team mates cry "loot the bodies".
Did the rest of your party roll with the same lack of items? If not, then that's likely the most important reason as to why you underperformed compared to the rest.
Much as I wish it weren't so, the game assumes a certain number of buffs from items in its CR calculations, and going without severely hampers the performance of any class (out of curiosity, do you do this frequently, and if so, with which class to make you feel that the Medium is particularly weak in this regard?). I believe that some developers have hinted at Pathfinder Unchained supposedly presenting alternatives to the item issue however, which I eagerly await.
Point of note on the progression: From a Strength spirit perspective, it's really odd/stilting that the Spirit Bonus increases 1 level prior to the BAB drop for 3/4 BAB. Example: Level 4 moves you up to +3 BAB and +2 Spirit Bonus (+2 over the prior level, combined), but level 5 is flat. This also temporarily puts you over full BAB's attack bonus.
Should the Spirit Bonus line up with the BAB-less levels (1, 5, 9, 13, 17), but keep the move to +6 at level 20?
Did the rest of your party roll with the same lack of items? If not, then that's likely the most important reason as to why you underperformed compared to the rest.
Much as I wish it weren't so, the game assumes a certain number of buffs from items in its CR calculations, and going without severely hampers the performance of any class (out of curiosity, do you do this frequently, and if so, with which class to make you feel that the Medium is particularly weak in this regard?). I believe that some developers have hinted at Pathfinder Unchained supposedly presenting alternatives to the item issue however, which I eagerly await.
Their item choices improved their defenses...not really attack and DMG...and often didn't really come into play in the first place.
And yes, I seldom take magic items unless we happen to run across something that fit's the concept of the character I'm playing.
It's never been an issue in the past...
I actually jump all over in regards to classes I play (Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Wizard, being the most common options).
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Yeah, I'm going to say that it's absolutely the lack of magic items that is holding you back (with a side case of possibly spreading your ability scores too thin).
If you're a full caster, yeah, you can sorta do without magic items (but not really), but as a 3/4 BAB 4th level spellcaster, you NEED every bonus you can get if you want to be effective in combat. I would imagine your buddies have AT LEAST magical belts/headbands to pump their primary stats on top of other useful things, and without stuff like that, they wouldn't seem nearly as powerful.
Additionally, the Kineticist using his Burn is effectively stacking Con damage on himself that cannot be removed at all until the next day. A very all-or-nothing choice.
Yeah, I'm going to say that it's absolutely the lack of magic items that is holding you back (with a side case of possibly spreading your ability scores too thin).
If you're a full caster, yeah, you can sorta do without magic items (but not really), but as a 3/4 BAB 4th level spellcaster, you NEED every bonus you can get if you want to be effective in combat. I would imagine your buddies have AT LEAST magical belts/headbands to pump their primary stats on top of other useful things, and without stuff like that, they wouldn't seem nearly as powerful.
Additionally, the Kineticist using his Burn is effectively stacking Con damage on himself that cannot be removed at all until the next day. A very all-or-nothing choice.
Again...their magic items rarely came into play, or only came into play regarding AC in a few cases.
Example..the Psychic has nothing but AC boosting items to compensate for his lack of armor prof.
The Keneticist had items boosting AC and Saves.
The GM actually had me up my sword to a +3 mid way through the night.
What really caused my character to lag behind was that I was approaching the class as something other than what it is...
My feat selection was not specifically geared for melee combat, in fact I was running at -2 feats simply because I hadn't found any feats suggestive of what I was trying to do.
Even when I re-assigned the character (and keeping in mind that it was a rush job)most of the situations that arose left me with sub-par options.
I was never in a situation where I could full attack...so I was limited to one hit, or spells (which never landed due to enemies saves).
From an RP perspective (which is my big focus) the class has a delightful degree of flexibility, but many of the spirit abilities are very situational, and with the time investment needed to trance (which you can seldom afford to do in combat)I was usually left with one option...charge and hit.
The Keneticist is Earth/Fire (not sure if those are touch ???)
I do know he was using "burn" and concerned about how long he could keep it up....so to speak....
Had a duel blast ability....
BTW...since you are also in charge of the Keneticist...he does not share in the opinion that they need full BA.
In all cases he has had no problem landing attacks (and yes, I'm sure he's not cheating)and is a mix of happy and guilty about how the class is performing.Near as I can tell the worm had an AC in the range of 30 ( I remember a 29 missing...and a 33 hitting).
The GM said the CR was 14, which is high for 11th level characters...but as the Keneticist and Occultist more or less jointly one shotted every encounter, he was looking for the threshold.
Cool, got it. So it was AC 31, and immune to the kineticist's fire damage (in fact, healed by it). He must have used earth. At level 11, if none of his magic items upped accuracy at all and he wasn't running with any buff spells up you didn't have, he would have +11 to hit from BAB and feel the burn, and then he probably had Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, and his Dex modifier. So +13 to hit +Dex. If he had 14 Dex to match your 14 Str, his accuracy would be +15, the same as yours (so needed a 16 to hit like you did). If he completely maxed Dex barring Dex items, which would have raised his accuracy (natural 18 + 2 racial + 2 level raises) he had 22 and had a +19 (so needed a 12 to hit, which is still less than a 50% chance). He may have had some accuracy items you didn't know about though. With your +3 weapon, you would have had +17, I believe.
I'm going to reconfigure the character for our last play-test next weekend, focusing more on a melee type build, using the idea of spirits that represent the Eldest....
Expect me to come looking for build advice in the near future ;)
Cool, got it. So it was AC 31, and immune to the kineticist's fire damage (in fact, healed by it). He must have used earth. At level 11, if none of his magic items upped accuracy at all and he wasn't running with any buff spells up you didn't have, he would have +11 to hit from BAB and feel the burn, and then he probably had Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, and his Dex modifier. So +13 to hit +Dex. If he had 14 Dex to match your 14 Str, his accuracy would be +15, the same as yours (so needed a 16 to hit like you did). If he completely maxed Dex barring Dex items, which would have raised his accuracy (natural 18 + 2 racial + 2 level raises) he had 22 and had a +19 (so needed a 12 to hit, which is still less than a 50% chance). He may have had some accuracy items you didn't know about though. With your +3 weapon, you would have had +17, I believe.
If memory serves...his Dex was 17.
I don't think he had an accuracy enhancements as far as items go, he was using Weapon focus, not sure about Point Blank.And ya, against the worm he was using earth (after hitting it with fire the first time)...fire worked great on the White Dragon though :P
I don't actually recall rolling higher than a 9 all night :(
As I go into the re-build, I think I will focus less on high Charisma...
Cool, got it. So it was AC 31, and immune to the kineticist's fire damage (in fact, healed by it). He must have used earth. At level 11, if none of his magic items upped accuracy at all and he wasn't running with any buff spells up you didn't have, he would have +11 to hit from BAB and feel the burn, and then he probably had Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, and his Dex modifier. So +13 to hit +Dex. If he had 14 Dex to match your 14 Str, his accuracy would be +15, the same as yours (so needed a 16 to hit like you did). If he completely maxed Dex barring Dex items, which would have raised his accuracy (natural 18 + 2 racial + 2 level raises) he had 22 and had a +19 (so needed a 12 to hit, which is still less than a 50% chance). He may have had some accuracy items you didn't know about though. With your +3 weapon, you would have had +17, I believe.If memory serves...his Dex was 17.
I don't think he had an accuracy enhancements as far as items go, he was using Weapon focus, not sure about Point Blank.
And ya, against the worm he was using earth (after hitting it with fire the first time)...fire worked great on the White Dragon though :PI don't actually recall rolling higher than a 9 all night :(
As I go into the re-build, I think I will focus less on high Charisma...
Thanks for the data on the kin! So it looks like (barring an unintentional mistake he made to add to accuracy or a booster you didn't know about) he had either +15 or +16 to hit with earth blast, which was either the same as yours or one higher. He must've gotten some nice dice rolls, I imagine.
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Building a Medium like a martial-focused Bard will actually probably serve you best, in the long run. Okayish Cha and most of your points in physical stats.
The game is pretty much designed that you're expected to have roughly 14+ in your primary to-hit stat at level (and more is better!) and improve it from there. If, at level 11, you have 14 Str, no magic items that improve your to-hit or damage, it's no surprise you're not going to be able to hit things. My level 6 Medium has 20 Strength and a +12 to-hit with his Strength spirit going, and with his current equipment at level 11, would have +16, without even worrying about new magic items.
The Big Six are really, really important to fighter-types, and the Medium is very definitely one of those - it doesn't really have the spellcasting or skills (even with its really versatile spirits) to make those its primary job.
Also, a night full of rolling under 10 is probably more the problem than the actual class. That can happen to anybody, and it's never fun.
The Big Six are really, really important to fighter-types, and the Medium is very definitely one of those - it doesn't really have the spellcasting or skills (even with its really versatile spirits) to make those its primary job.
And there in lies my biggest problem...I wasn't approaching the class as a fighter type ;)
But ya, a night of crappy rolls can also be very frustrating...| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not really sure what to make of this class anymore. Beseech is nice addition sure, but I didn't feel that it was that remarkable that it would save the class from it's inherent flaws. I'm in similar lines as nighttree in part, I don't really know what the class is supposed to do, since from my limited testing (managed to test it a bit but not enough for it count as serious testing so I won't be posting the notes on that.) and reading up on what other people say, it still doesn't do anything well. You can gear it up to be a melee fighter, but only adequate, and on assumption you really focused your stats on str and the like.
Maybe I lost some luster on the class after reading up on binder and the 3rd party Occultist. I thought the medium was going for similar thing, but the medium spirits feel underwhelming compared to the vestigest/occultist spirits and the mechanic of influence and type matching feels somewhat bothersome compared to the influence/multi spirit of the other camp.
I'll still keep an eye on the class and maybe run another test or two if I can manage time from finishing up on work because I think the theme of having spirits bound to you is really good and I'd love to see it work so that GMs might allow it (3.5/3rd party is pretty much no go).
I still really hope the spirits would be made more potent and more centrepiece, giving more interesting and useful powers, even if it is at cost of spellcasting. It could be great to have Medium become the martial of occult, but I'd be fine with Medium just becoming well, something that has a role.
The only way I can see the Medium being what I had hoped it would be would be for it to have six levels of casting (like the Bard, or Magus)...but it doesn't sound like that's even a consideration...so I'm not going to hold my breath.
This just in: Mark's dice hate my playtest reports. :-(
I've said it to death, but I think it'd behoove the class to be given a more robust chassis. The Spirits should obviously be the focus, and even keep the 54 (I'm not a fan of that, but if that's what it takes to make people happy...), but seriously tone back the dependency on the Spirits.
The main problem is that, as-is, the Medium is severely MAD. To the point that it might even be AAD in order to be exactly what it wants
If the Medium is given a both spells and class abilities independent of the Spirits, it'd help players understand how to build a Medium better, with Spirits only emphasizing the aspects they want.
With a 3/4 BAB/d8 HD, 6-level spells, 6+Int skills, and class abilities to speak to dead things or other abilities, ALONG with limiting the number of spirits you have access too WHILE allowing you to access ALL of your known spirits freely throughout the day, you'd end up with a class that can be molded around the 2-3 Stats you choose to focus on.
If players have only, say, 3-5 spirits from lv1-20, it helps them define the characters better.
One reason the Cleric is so good is not just the 9 levels of spellcasting but the fact that Domains make it able to fill nearly any role. However, you don't have 1 Cleric who can do everything; instead, you'd have a party of 4-6 Clerics who fill the role of Melee, Sneaker, Blaster, Healer, Archer, Controller/Buffer.
The Medium should probably be made in a similar manner: having access to only a small number Spirits (based on an ability score) with simple-yet-strong abilities from lv1 and never gaining more as time goes on.
This is my not-a-playtest. I have a 7th level Bloodrager in a campaign I'm going through right now, and we recently had an encounter where we were forced to retreat. I took some time and thought about how I would have handled it with a Medium, and thought I'd give you the results.
The fight:
One medium black dragon serving as a mount for a goblin with Drow poison arrows.
Half a dozen ogres and an ettin.
The location:
Small fortress-island in a swampy lake. There's a pier all around a small keep, and that's about it.
The party:
Unconscious/dead except for the gung-ho Fighter, my Aberrant Bloodrager, and the NPC Bard. Everybody else got immediately killed or failed easy saves vs. the sleep poison. Cleric got off a Blessing of Fervor before getting sleep'd while in the water and failing all relevant checks. Fighter kept the ogres busy, Bard sang, and Bloodrager kept the bodies from being CDG'd. Everybody had some form of pre-cast protection from acid. Rather than deal with the Bloodrager full attacks with crits threatening to stagger, the dragon decided to strafe with acid as often as it could. The group managed to hold out long enough for those sleep'd to wake up, and then the Cleric got us out. (Huzzah for Desna!) Bloodrager did a fine-but-boring job of being scary enough to not have things go near him. Spent most of his time just standing on top of his unconscious allies.
What would a Medium have done? Knowing that we were to be facing a dragon, selected spirits would be Demon's Lantern primary (1 influence since it wouldn't be a daily spirit), Rabbit Prince secondary (1 or 2 influence, since it's a more regular spirit).
Hypothetical strategies:
- Fool's Lantern to prevent strafing tactics in a "this hurts you as much as it hurts me" fashion.
- Wisp Shield to protect against thrown boulders. GM might rule that the boulders would definitely hit both the Medium and the wisp. Also useful when dealing with dragon's attacks. Miss chance goes well with the extra AC from the Dex spirits.
- Wisp Shield alone wouldn't be enough. Pay one influence (long fight, so do it twice) for access to Wisp Walker. Ready move action: "When the dragon is about to attack, activate Wisp Walker and trade locations". If the dragon wises up, start popping out of wisp form to attack it.
- Rabbit Prince makes damage and attack not terrible.
Spells:
Nothing on what the Bloodrager was be able to cast. Bloodrager had Bullet Shield and Shield, keeping Mirror Image as a backup. Medium would have Entropic Shield, keeping Mirror Image as a backup.
Hypothetical issues:
- There would probably be a short discussion/argument with the GM about whether the wisp deals damage to whoever killed it if they aren't adjacent.
- When using Wisp Walker, do you have to stay with 10 feet of the real wisp?
- When using Wisp Walker, can you move both of you with a move action?
- When using Wisp Walker, what speed do you move at?
- When using Wisp Walker, can you move yourself up in the air?
- Is there any way to safely dismiss a wisp? (Dismiss action or move it out of range, for instance.)
- Does Dancing Lights look enough like the wisp that an intelligent creature could be fooled?
- Can you have Dancing Lights active at the same time as a wisp?
- Odd-level damage dice for the wisp would make it it more of a deterrent.
All in all, the Medium would have probably needed the Fighter to hang back and help while he harassed the dragon with wisp shenanigans. It would not have been is not as good of a caster as Bloodrager (ouch!), nor would it have been as good of a melee combatant. It would have been more fun, and mobility would not have been an issue.
The Medium wouldn't have been able to change the overall outcome of the battle, and might not have been able to fish out the drowning Cleric like the Bloodrager did. Depending on the mechanics of Wisp Walker, he might have been able to safely flee across the lake under his own power, unlike the Bloodrager.
I love Demon's Lantern, even just in theory-crafting. Right now, there are still some questions (particularly where Wisp Walker gets involved). I would bring up the questions, we'd check the forums for posted opinions but probably find a decent split rather than any consensus, then hash out the details before the session started.
Finally, the coolest possible course of action with absurdly lucky rolling:
Pick The Fiend for primary spirit. Trance to get Swallow Whole. Eat the dragon. That's right, you heard me.
Actually, I had a weird idea, and I don't even know if it's good or not:
What if Spirits had no Alignments, instead were based on TWO Scores each, with THREE levels of power:
Str/Dex, Str/Con, Str/Int, Str/Wis, Str/Cha, Dex/Con, Dex/Int, Dex/Wis, Dex/Cha, Con/Int, Con/Wis, Con/Cha, Int/Wis, Int/Cha, Wis/Cha
Minor, Greater, and Major
At lv1, they would choose 2 Minor Spirits to access.
At lv7, they choose 2 Greater Spirits to access
At lv13, they choose 2 Major Spirits to access
Finally, at lv20, they choose 1 of 6 Supreme Spirits (1 for each stat), and they gain access to that.
Each Spirit has 1 specific effect, but it's a solid effect for its tier (they can probably even grow in power up to a cap, like spells).
A Medium can call upon his Spirits throughout the day, probably based on a number of rounds that aren't necessarily consecutive.
Alternatively, a Medium could have channel up to 2 Spirits of these Spirits at a time for 24 hours, gaining both of their abilities, even at lv1, but only know a very few number of Spirits to channel.
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This, along with the 3/4BAB/d8HD, 6 spells, 6+Int Skills, and class abilities, would easily and effectively help to define a Medium.
Some Mediums could be "melee only" and take Str/Dex, Dex/Con, and Con/Str all three tiers.
Some Mediums could be "Caster Only" focusing on Cha at all tiers with the other abilities be side-effects.
Tons of other builds would also be possible, and even at lv1 a player could be a "Jack of All Trades" by taking 2 Spirits with no ability overlaps at all.
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This would still allow for a very large number of combinations, and a very large pool of options (51 in total - 15 per Tier, and 6 Supreme), but breaking them up by Tier would allow for greater ease of use, since players would be more focused on a small number of Spirits at a time.
It'd also allow some Spirits to be significantly better than others, because there are only 15 Spirits per Tier (so, for example, a Str/Con from the Major Tier should obviously be much more powerful than the one from the Minor Tier).
This isn't dissimilar to how the Binder was handled, but this is a much-more elegant solution which would allow for greater ease of use and play than even the Binder, and for greater diversity, at that.
For what it's worth, I'd just like to say that I really enjoy the fact that all of the spirits are available from the get go (providing that you pick them as your known spirits) and that they AREN'T tiered by level or some arbitrary "rank".
Much as I loved the binder, I resented the fact that some of my favorite vestiges in terms of theme was locked behind a level cap I would most likely never reach due to the low-level nature of our games.
Is Trance limited per day? In the table, you are given a limit per day, but this limit isn't illuminated in the text. Usually, limits are given in both places or in the text, not solely in the table.
If the limit is intended, then I wonder why it exists. You are already limited by the Influence gain in the spirits, why add on an additional limit? In fact, at 1 or 2/day, you would never be able to reach the Influence limit. Is this intended?
The trance daily limit is put in place because each spirit you have has its own separate influence limit. Otherwise you would essentially have 3 trances each day per spirit you know.
Is there a reason for Influence if the only reason you have it is to limit maximum amount of Trances used per spirit? Can't you just say: "You can only use trance with a particular spirit three times in a day."
The only other ability that induces Influence is the capstone. It seems like either the Trance limit or the Influence counter is irrelevant.
I guess I just wish that I could trance more often after thinking about the limit (I didn't realize there was one because its not in the Trance text)? It seems like I will never have enough trances to take advantage of my higher Charisma Medium's number of spirits.
I take it back! Mark's dice agreed with me this time around and we're getting a new spirit. :-D
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Serisan unlocked the fourth spirit, and he chose The Uprising.
First, some points to note:
1) Obviously this isn't legal in PFS
2) This is in a rough format, so it's missing sections of flavor and the wording is very preliminary. Virtually no one has read this except me (and now you guys). It also might not look anything like the final spirit for that reason. Extra note: Uprising is going to have some spells from OA, so its spell list has some ?. Feel free to suggest interim spells to fill those ? in this thread though!
3) In the final version of the book, as mentioned in the sidebar "Alignments in the Playtest", you will be looking for exact alignment matches. That means that if you add any of these new unlocked spirits, you may want to consider removing another spirit from your playtest as well (in this case, the Hidden Truth).
So behold, in its unformatted glory!
Spirit Bonus (Strength): Spirit bonus to attack and damage
Spells: 1st—wrath; 2nd—enthrall; 3rd—rage; 4th—?
Séance Boon: +2 to CMB to overrun
Compulsion: Revolutionary
Spirit Powers:
1st: By Whatever Means Necessary—You gain Catch Off-Guard as a bonus feat. The Uprising doubles its spirit bonus when using an improvised weapon that has not been enhanced by any spell or ability.
7th: Rising Tide—When you take a full attack action, each time you hit a target of a CR at least half your character level, you receive a cumulative +1 bonus to hit that target until you miss the target, switch targets, or complete your full attack.
13th: Strength in Numbers—At the end of your full attack, if you still had a bonus from rising tide, you can summon a number of pig farmers (NPC Codex 256) equal to your rising tide’s final bonus. This does not require an action. The pig farmers must appear in squares adjacent to you or another of the summoned pig farmers. The pig farmers last for a number of rounds equal to the Uprising’s spirit bonus, until reduced to 0 hp, or until you use strength in numbers again.
19th: Overwhelming—You can use strength in numbers multiple times without dismissing your previously summoned pig farmers. As a standard action, you can organize 25 pig farmers into an angry mob. The angry mob gains the troop subtype with 2d6 troop damage and 45 hp, but it otherwise has the same stats as a pig farmer.
Run more medium playtests for more chances to reveal preliminary notes on another spirit!
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lolpigfarmers
As amusing as it is, Strength in Numbers appears to be almost completely useless for anything but baffling the enemy.
As an aside, does the pig farmers arrive with the light horse and eight pigs mentioned in their stat blocks?
As amusing as it is, Strength in Numbers appears to be almost completely useless for anything but baffling the enemy.
As an aside, does the pig farmers arrive with the light horse and eight pigs mentioned in their stat blocks?
There are several creative possibilities for zounds of peasants. To give just one example, since you can summon them next to a previous pig farmer, you could form a ring of them around a gargantuan or colossal creature and have them all use Aid Another. The animals don't get summoned along with the farmer, no.
There are several creative possibilities for zounds of peasants. To give just one example, since you can summon them next to a previous pig farmer, you could form a ring of them around a gargantuan or colossal creature and have them all use Aid Another. The animals don't get summoned along with the farmer, no.As amusing as it is, Strength in Numbers appears to be almost completely useless for anything but baffling the enemy.
As an aside, does the pig farmers arrive with the light horse and eight pigs mentioned in their stat blocks?
If they don't come with the pigs, how do we know they're pig farmers, and not some other kind of farmer?
Are these extraplanar pig farmers, like with a summon monster spell?
Are they teleported from somewhere else? This could be a good plot hook ("All of our pig farmers are disappearing! Go find the medium behind it!")
If they aren't teleported from somewhere else, doesn't that mean they are conjured out of nothing? Does this sudden consciousness cause the pig farmers any existential crises?
There are several creative possibilities for zounds of peasants. To give just one example, since you can summon them next to a previous pig farmer, you could form a ring of them around a gargantuan or colossal creature and have them all use Aid Another. The animals don't get summoned along with the farmer, no.As amusing as it is, Strength in Numbers appears to be almost completely useless for anything but baffling the enemy.
As an aside, does the pig farmers arrive with the light horse and eight pigs mentioned in their stat blocks?
If they don't come with the pigs, how do we know they're pig farmers, and not some other kind of farmer?
Are these extraplanar pig farmers, like with a summon monster spell?
Are they teleported from somewhere else? This could be a good plot hook ("All of our pig farmers are disappearing! Go find the medium behind it!")
If they aren't teleported from somewhere else, doesn't that mean they are conjured out of nothing? Does this sudden consciousness cause the pig farmers any existential crises?
The statblock name is pig farmer. For everything else, it's whatever your answer is for summon nature's ally.
All those pig farmers seem unwieldy but kind of hilarious. Also: how often is this pig farmer thing even going to come up? Your last physical attack is probably going to miss and you are never going to be making more than 3 or 4 farmers for most builds. How the hell are you going to get 25 of these jerks to use overwhelming? And wouldn't it be a nightmare to even handle 25 pig farmers?
The pitchfork thrower build seems fun, though. However, maybe I would just make a swashbuckler if I am going to dedicate myself to it.
All those pig farmers seem unwieldy but kind of hilarious. Also: how often is this pig farmer thing even going to come up? Your last physical attack is probably going to miss and you are never going to be making more than 3 or 4 farmers for most builds. How the hell are you going to get 25 of these jerks to use overwhelming? And wouldn't it be a nightmare to even handle 25 pig farmers?
The pitchfork thrower build seems fun, though. However, maybe I would just make a swashbuckler if I am going to dedicate myself to it.
Either find a way to add a touch attack to your routine or just end your full attack if you think you are going to miss.
Not the greatest of solutions, but the best I can come up with.
If the Medium is given a both spells and class abilities independent of the Spirits, it'd help players understand how to build a Medium better, with Spirits only emphasizing the aspects they want.
I would actually be fine, and in fact would prefer, if the existing mechanic of spirits determining your spell known was kept in place.
And I'm fine with keeping the skills/level at +4.I think the current spirit progression, and the abilities gained would be fine as well if the class had 6 levels of casting, but right now it's to pigeon holed into a melee role....and that's not what I was hoping for from the class.
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I can think of many hilarious things to do with a gaggle of peasantry. I can think of many more if they were available out of combat though. Summoning a very small number of pig farmers (albeit as a free action) seems a trifle underwhelming when you start getting the ability at 13th level. Haven't playtested it of course, so maybe it's worth Channeling up a spirit tier for?
There are several creative possibilities for zounds of peasants. To give just one example, since you can summon them next to a previous pig farmer, you could form a ring of them around a gargantuan or colossal creature and have them all use Aid Another. The animals don't get summoned along with the farmer, no.As amusing as it is, Strength in Numbers appears to be almost completely useless for anything but baffling the enemy.
As an aside, does the pig farmers arrive with the light horse and eight pigs mentioned in their stat blocks?
There's no way to get zounds of pig farmers with the current ability until level 13 while trancing, and it's dicey even then. Your best bet for this ability is if you know there are going to be hordes of enemies and you've picked up Whirlwind Attack (probably actually picked up the feat rather than snagging it through The Cyclone, given where it falls on The Cyclone's progression) along with a reach weapon, Improved Unarmed Strike, and an Enlarge.
The assumption here is that you have enough bonuses to your attack that you only lose out on a natural 1 against the room, of course, but that could get you the number of pig farmers you so richly desire.
If you happen to be doing this at a high level, having The Cyclone's capstone would make this very, very appealing. A level 20 Medium could use Astral Beacon with Cyclone, Beating, Bear, and Uprising to singlehandedly wipe out an army with a combo like this. It is, however, very unlikely to come up in actual play.
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If you happen to be doing this at a high level, having The Cyclone's capstone would make this very, very appealing. A level 20 Medium could use Astral Beacon with Cyclone, Beating, Bear, and Uprising to singlehandedly wipe out an army with a combo like this. It is, however, very unlikely to come up in actual play.
If you can hit them hard enough to one-shot them, you are punching them so hard they turn into farmers.
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The current implementation of spirits seems awfully convoluted when you have to examine each interaction of each spirit in each position. Throw in the fact that you can change these on the fly with Trance and it looks like it becomes a book-keeping nightmare.
Is there a reason that there couldn't be primary and secondary spirits? At level 1, you get a primary spirit that grants both its spirit bonus and its abilities. At 5th level, you get a secondary spirit that grants one or the other at some progression. At 11th level, you gain another primary spirit and, at 17th level, you gain another secondary spirit.
This seems like it would be much simpler to coordinate, especially if you had to tie secondary spirits to the primaries, but primaries could be independant.
Looking at the abilities, I don't think two full spirits and two additional sets of abilities that go up to Greater(?) would be severely overpowered.
Just my initial thoughts after trying to build a level 11 Medium that focused on The Beating. I wanted to utilize the Waxworks spirit because I think it is awesome, but trying to get enough attacks to make use of the Intermediate ability was difficult. Even assuming the average monster has 30' move speed, I would need three hits to put on enough wax for a single round and then an additional attack to make use of the ability. Took me to level 9 to get that before realizing my hit was too low. Tried to segue into Beating for the flanking bonuses with Menacing AoMF and Strength spirit bonus, but found I could only get one or the other and even then the flanking bonuses wouldn't kick in till 13th level AND I needed to use another Strength spirit to ensure I got the spirit bonus and the spirit powers I wanted.
Is two primary spirits and two secondary spirits too overpowered in people's minds?
I would really like something along those lines. I don't mind the bookkeeping itself, but it's definitely a chore to get some combos to work.
Ironically, Waxworks wants to be as active as possible. TWF or three natural attacks (which I think is just one or two types of Skinwalker, unless you're a race that can get claws and choose to worship Lamashtu in order to get a bite attack through a trait). A couple strength spirits give you natural attacks, but they're strength spirits, which means waiting until level 11. Maybe Combat Reflexes?
I think that channeling for Entropy's Agent would work a little better. Every round, swift to exit it, standard to stab them or cast something, move to resume form. Once they fail their save, swift to exit, full-round to CDG 'em. Grab either of the other Con spirits to make sure you don't keel over while doing it.
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I'm so bummed he didn't survive.
Whitechin, Goblin King, Norgorber's Chosen!
5th level Medium, Goblin Wererat
ST 14 (16 in hybrid)
DX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14
AC 16 (mwk studded) or 18 hybrid
HP 44-60 (5d8+20) DR 5/silver
Fortitude +4
Reflex +4
Will +8, re-roll failed 1/day
Initiative +2
Speed 30
Melee: +8 punch 1d4+4/6 or claw/claw/bite +9/+9/+9 1d3+5/7x2 & 1d4+5/7 infect
Ranged: (see magic)
Special: DC 15 Curse of Lycanthropy, +2 to re-damage foes
Spirits:
The Beating (Evil Strength) - Primary
The Rakasha (Evil Intelligence) - Secondary
Primary
Strength Spirit: +2 all attack and damage rolls
Seance Boon (Shared): +2 to re-damage foes
Beater: unarmed strike 1d4 damage, +1 to re-attack foes
Dogpile (Trance): allies flank any angle and +1 to attack such
Secondary
Intelligence Spirit: +2 all skills
Seance Boon (Shared): +2 to Intimidate to influence attitude
Exploit Domination (Trance): compulsed target -2 opposed AC, attack, skill, saves
Beseech, 1/day each, standard:
Beating: 2d6 10 radius DC 14 Will 1/2
Rakasha: +1d6 two skill checks within 2 minutes
Spells (2/day):
Command "Bow Down" DC 12 (Prone) 35 feet
Ray of Enfeeblement "Perish Weakling" +8 vs touch 1d6+2 (!) 35 feet
Skills:
Bluff (1) +8, Heal (1) +6, Intimidate (5) +12/14, Perception (1) +6, Perform Oratory (1) +8, Ride (0) +8, Sense Motive (5) +10, Stealth (0) +12, Survival (1) +3, Use Magic Device (5) +12
Feats: Toughness, Iron Will, Greater Iron Will
Tactics
all goblins Shared Seance (+2 to re-damage)
prior to battle, trances Beating to enable cross-flanking at +3 total
from a distance, uses spells
if engaged/out of spells, transforms into hybrid (roll 1d20+7 vs 15 as full round)
if it looks grim, he beseeches Rakasha (if expecting chase) and runs
The PCs consisted of six 2nd-level characters (two tanks, two strikers, and two controllers), two 3rd level NPCs (striker and controller), and one 0th-level NPC (a striker).
The nigh-20 round combat came in 3 waves.
At first they were descended upon all sides by 5 Goblin-carrying Worgs, using their Ride skill to negate hits. The party druid expertly slowed their advance with a well-placed Entangle, loosing up an otherwise concentrated volley of tooth and claw, breaking the initial rush into chewable bits.
Seven or so rounds in, sneaking around the back (we had to tape a second battle map to the first) the thirteen 1st level rogue goblins, one 3rd-level cleric goblin and his two goblin dogs, and Whitechin, were spotted 60 feet away from the epicenter, and again a well-placed Entangle slowed their advance as the PCs used ranged combat to pluck out about half of the rogues before the crazy-angle flanking-sneak attack shenanigans began. Ironically, the writhing flora kept the PCs out as much as the leader goblins in, and from that safety Whitechin was able to loose his two spells (Ray of Enfeeblement and Command), the first of which missed (I rolled a "5," missing one of the tank's touch AC by one!), the second of which was resisted (the PC rolled high on his save). Whitechin went into hybrid form (the moon was indeed full) and ripped the 0th-level NPC to shreds.
At about round 14, three Shadows descended upon the two battling parties, at first draining the Strength of the nearest living creatures, but moving on to drain the Strength of the highest-remaining-Strength creatures left, with only the NPC cleric able to damage them (the PCs had at their disposal 3 magic items: a +1 mace, a Shillelagh, and a Magic Weapon spell), none of which they used, as the cleric finished off the Shadows.
Whitechin descended upon the creatures as well, all of his goblins slain, in a bid to bargain for his life, being outmaneuvered and outnumbered. If he had instead run, he would have lived to see another day. The PCs took him down by triple team, unmoved by the gesture.
Impressions
Were it not for the Entangle spell(s), this battle could have been a TPK, I realized after the fact, because the goblins, being little glass cannons, all the more so infused with the Worgpile Trance supplied them by their leader, if given just an extra round of set up (denied them by the spell), could have easy tripled their damage output.
The Medium leader is a great 5th-man class, and I do not think he was lacking for accuracy or survivability. That is to say that I think the chassis is sound, because the Spirit Powers themselves are indeed powerful. The Beater is especially good. And the flavor was great, my players giving me the "wtf" face when, upon being incompletely flanked by one or more goblins I described to them that an image of a childhood bully briefly crossing their consciousness, albeit to no concrete game effect.
That said, having 2 spells at 5th level was kind of lackluster. Even though Ray of Enfeeblement on a 3/4 BAB class should be a sure thing (I rolled poorly)! If I could make a suggestion, as an alternative to granting full 6-level casting, I would make it so each active Spirit also granted their spells like a domain spell (ie: +1 per day), giving the Medium a little more firepower without copping out to alter the chassis. Such a change could be implemented without lifting a finger to rework every single Spirit.
Finally, I would make two major changes to Rakasha. One would be granting the seance bonus to all Intimidate checks (not just those "to influence attitude"), which, double-dipping the Intelligence spirit bonus to skills in general, would compensate for the low number of skill points and lack of spells for the first three levels better. Second, and more importantly, it'd be cool if the Exploit Domination ability would actually synergize with compulsions that lasted more than a single round better. Either by having the effect linger, or, by extending the benefit to the medium's allies as well. Otherwise there is no reason to trance into it until you've got 2nd level spells with better durations, which doesn't happen until level 7 anyway.
I really like this class.
I'm going for wax works activation by three attacks from half-orc bite and the two claws from the bear. Seancing Bear and the beating (evil) allows me to trance into wax works (evil) for the ability. Though you do need to wait until level 5 and it is a bit of a set up.
The abilities for spirits seem really weak, especially Liar and Uprising. Even worse they are so specific you have to think about specific pasterns of spirits to get them to work, so you can't make a character who changes role.
Which causes me to raise the question on what is the role of a medium, since I think I must have misunderstood?
The abilities for spirits seem really weak, especially Liar and Uprising. Even worse they are so specific you have to think about specific pasterns of spirits to get them to work, so you can't make a character who changes role.
Which causes me to raise the question on what is the role of a medium, since I think I must have misunderstood?
I thought The Liar was pretty nice, actually. It lets you act like a full caster for charm and compulsion. DCs are boosted, and Charm Person becomes a shorter Dominate Person, but with a much higher Sense Motive DC to spot it. True Lies is a bit lackluster for most campaigns, sure, but Sunder Heart is awesome. And remember, Helpful is just a minute of conversation and an Intimidate check away. Half-Elves and Half-Orcs both count as three races for the infatuation ability, Kitsune can take a variety of forms, giving them access to four races if they have a feat (kitsune, human, half-elf, and half-orc) and both genders, and humans have an alternate racial trait that lets them diplomance attitudes by three steps instead of two, moving somebody from unfriendly to helpful if they max out diplomacy. (Plus, in the overwhelming majority of campaigns, "human" is the default.) If you're playing, say, a kobold or a goblin in a typical human-centric campaign, yeah, you're only there for the boosts to DCs.
I think Liar works just fine on its own. Your only investment is in social skills, which you want anyways. (Brief plug for more skill points for this class.) You don't have to take the spirit before you get spells if you don't want to.