General Discussion: Medium


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Dark Archive

The intention is likely to focus on a small handful of spirits, and grab extras that you can use every now and then/trance into to solve problems as they come up.


I'm in for switching names.

Mediums are often pictured as interacting with "ghost stuff".
Meanwhile, the word spiritualist is, as far as I know, far less used, and free of those cultural references who end up messing up with our expectation of the class.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Quote:
a 6 level caster with an emphasis placed on spells that deal with ghost, spirits, undead and the ethereal.
We have one of those elsewhere in the playtest—the spiritualist. The medium and the spiritualist each explore different spaces (the medium is Astral, not Ethereal, for one).

Yeah I was going to chime in on this. It's obvious to me Spiritualist and Medium both are different takes on the same trope. The medium gets the "possession" elements, while the Spiritualist gets the ectoplasm and ghost spirit guide elements.

I don't see a problem with this at all...both are valid takes on the same concept. I don't think their names are going to cause much confusion at all.


I mentioned once, a long way up thread, that I thought Mediums should channel specific local spirits or ones that the medium has a link to, which happen to fit the archetype template.

Paizo Employee Designer

AlanDG2 wrote:
I mentioned once, a long way up thread, that I thought Mediums should channel specific local spirits or ones that the medium has a link to, which happen to fit the archetype template.

Yep, there's no reason that they can't be different entities each time and always fitting with the archetype chosen.


The difference would be RP if you lose control. If you are possessed by a different spirit, your actions may vary considerably than if you always use the same one.

Dark Archive

AlanDG2 wrote:
The difference would be RP if you lose control. If you are possessed by a different spirit, your actions may vary considerably than if you always use the same one.

That's something that is likely going to be up to your DM (or if he wants you to roleplay what happens when you push yourself into 4 Influence, up to you) and not something that necessarily has to be hard-coded into the class.

My Medium will be contacting the same Spirit every time, but that's not necessarily a requirement (or, at least, isn't one currently).

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

For my less-experienced players, medium is going to be a little weird, for the reasons mentioned. It's got a clear historical stereotype, which it mostly, but not entirely fills. I anticipate if they play a medium, they're going to ask me how they can handle situations the class cannot currently handle.

Assuming there are no significant changes to the playtest version of the class (beyond what Mark has already come up with), I would have no qualms using GM fiat to provide some new capabilities to a character with the class to meet those expectations.

Playing devil's advocate, there are some reasons why, maybe, it doesn't make sense to include those capabilities in the class:
1. Interacting with the undead might be really problematic. You run into a lot of them and there's rarely any background story provided for a GM to build on.
2. Haunts, my favorite "environmental feature" the class could interact with, are rare and may not always provide consistent information a class feature could use to interact with.
3. Similarly to #2, there might be enough information in most Haunt entries to make a class ability work, but a class ability could put too much on a GM's plate.
3a. I don't particularly believe in this point myself, though, as a particularly obnoxious group of PFS players could already use the playtest version of the class to make a PFS GM run the scenario plus all 6 or 7 players themselves!
4. Spirits are a pretty consistent feature of "the occult" and Occult Adventures might have rules separate from the classes for interacting with spirits.
5. Maybe they just don't want to provide a way for "nerfing" haunts?
6. Pathfinder creates a lot of dead bodies, which might create too many spirits or opportunities for spirits for a GM to reasonably handle.
7. Communing with the spirits of the dead could short-circuit too many module, adventure, and scenario plots.


Terminalmancer wrote:

Playing devil's advocate, there are some reasons why, maybe, it doesn't make sense to include those capabilities in the class:

<Points 1-7>

I would basically agree, except that Speak With Dead is a Core Rulebook spell, and lv3 at that.

Having Speak with Dead as an SLA for X min/day as a Medium is literally (and I do mean literally) no worse than any player spamming ALL their lv3 spell slots from lv5 onward to Speak With Dead at every opportunity.

In fact, the Medium, ironically, wouldn't even be as good at speaking to the departed as the Cleric, because a Cleric gets uses of the spell multiple times, and each time they use it they can communicate for 1min/lv.

If a Medium got it at lv1, then at lv5 they could do it for 5 minutes, tops, while a Cleric could technically do it for 10 (assuming they have a good enough Wis), or even more.

So, yeah - every point you made, while completely valid, is actually a total non-issue, since it's been that way since Day 1. Or even if it's not a "non-issue" Speak With Dead didn't break the game and wreck every module for the past 5 years while it was a spell, so why would it break things as a limited spell-like ability now of a class which it's perfect for?


Terminalmancer wrote:


2. Haunts, my favorite "environmental feature" the class could interact with, are rare and may not always provide consistent information a class feature could use to interact with.
5. Maybe they just don't want to provide a way for "nerfing" haunts?

These are both valid points, yet also are perfect compliments to one another.

Haunts are strong, and the ability to Exorcise them without the usual means would be a very powerful, yet thematically-appropriate, ability.

However, Haunts ARE also very rare, which means that the ability would be very conditionally useful (you have to find/be in a haunt for it to even be relevant, after all), thus it probably wouldn't come up every other time players kick down the door, thus justifying it's power for the rare opportunities when it IS useful.

There's also nothing to say that every Haunt CAN be interacted with.

In paranormal theory, there are a few different types of haunts: active haunts, where ghosts/demons/things are sentient and cognizant of their actions; automatic haunts, where ghosts "replay" events over and over, and are mindless otherwise.

Therefore, Persistent Haunts could be simply "automatic" and the character is unable to communicate with the haunt.

And either way, there are already rules set for Investigating Haunts, which can be easily ported to using Speak with Dead (they typically don't give very detailed answers, anyway).

There's nothing in the rules as they are now that wouldn't be applicable to Mediums interacting with Haunts in a similar manner to Rogues interacting with Traps, honestly.


nighttree wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
As to so many of the revealed spirits putting you into the thick of things, I'm afraid that's a side effect of revealing 3 new Str spirits and 1 new Con out of 5 revealed. So you're starting to see more and more of the more combat-y options but not so much the others.

Then could we maybe get some of the non-combat options ?

I am rebuilding from the ground for our last round of playtest...and really everything seems intent on pushing me into a melee role.

Problem is, my attraction to this class has nothing to do with a melee role....that's not what I'm looking for out of it....yet I'm stuck playing a melee character.

So I'm guessing that's a no.....


Ignoring the thematics debate at the moment, i want to talk about the playtests i have actually played witmh the class. I have now played this class several times in PFS events, and i have some feed back from that.

1. This class does not even come close to keeping up with front line combatants at the low to mid tier.

1a. STR Spirit does help, but scales way too slow to make them front line based on damage output.

1b. AC, even under DEX Spirit, is woefully inadequate. A non DEX build for most mediums, with only light armor prof.

1c. HP is very, very bad for a low AC frontliner.

After a lot of thought about point 1, and reading this thread, I have come up with a quick fix for point 1 is an increase in HD to d12. If I have the HP to duke it out my lower AC does't hurt so bad, and it allows burst damage to be replaced with damage over rounds. Does't change the class concept as much as an increase to BAB, but mitigates many other concerns.

2. This class is not a caster.

2a. Depending on spirits used, is good wand wielder though.

Point 2 doesn't need fixing, works well as is for me.

3.For a character billed to fill holes in party composition it isnt versatile enough for that.

3a. To do what it says on the can, disable device NEEDS to be a class skill.

3b. If DD becomes a class skill we need a spirit (like The Fool as a name) CN DEX which has
Lesser Power:Trapfinding. You gain trap finding as a rogue.
Intermediate Power:Trapspotting.
etc.

3c. Class currently has no means of healing.

These can mostly be solved with spirits. If you don't like the roguelike spirit, a combination of spirits might work instead.

This class has been fun to play, and keep up the good work.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
nighttree wrote:
nighttree wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
As to so many of the revealed spirits putting you into the thick of things, I'm afraid that's a side effect of revealing 3 new Str spirits and 1 new Con out of 5 revealed. So you're starting to see more and more of the more combat-y options but not so much the others.

Then could we maybe get some of the non-combat options ?

I am rebuilding from the ground for our last round of playtest...and really everything seems intent on pushing me into a melee role.

Problem is, my attraction to this class has nothing to do with a melee role....that's not what I'm looking for out of it....yet I'm stuck playing a melee character.

So I'm guessing that's a no.....

Need more playtests to unlock extra stuff.


Hmm. Medium armor proficiency would be really helpful mechanically. Fluff-wise, it may not be a great fit, but it'd be handy.

Dark Archive

Uh, what? Mediums have Medium armor proficiency.

OAP p. 16 wrote:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mediums are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, and medium armor, but not with shields.


Seranov wrote:

Uh, what? Mediums have Medium armor proficiency.

OAP p. 16 wrote:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mediums are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, and medium armor, but not with shields.

Oh! Good, 'cuz that makes sense. I just saw the earlier post say light armor…

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Since the core mechanics of the class don't seem likely to change, I'd also request changing the name of the class. In addition, this will avoid confusing when talking about creature size...otherwise we'll have "a Halfling is a Small medium" or "the Large ogre medium approaches..."

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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JoelF847 wrote:
Since the core mechanics of the class don't seem likely to change, I'd also request changing the name of the class. In addition, this will avoid confusing when talking about creature size...otherwise we'll have "a Halfling is a Small medium" or "the Large ogre medium approaches..."

The Medium medium may need to mediate much with mead in its medium armor, indeed.[/sillyalliteration]

Sovereign Court

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Yeah I suggest changing the class name to "Level"

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Quadstriker wrote:
Yeah I suggest changing the class name to "Level"

#problemsolved


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So, I haven't actually made a medium yet (been playtesting as a kineticist) as I'm somewhat turned off by not having the full list of spirits to draw upon in deciding my theme, but I am really pumped for the finished product. Just thought I'd share a couple of the medium concepts that are on my 'must play or run' list as of right now.

1) Sir Savel of the Sacrosanct Order of the Six Saints
Medium with a dash of paladin dip. Exclusively channeling the six lawful good spirits, which his order believes to be the six eponymous saints of the order. I have not yet decided if I want the order to be a splinter of Iomedae's paladinhood or if I want the Paladin status itself tied to the spirits, but I can see the flavor merit in either choice!

2) Lady Illeria, vessel of Norgorber
Cultist obsessed with mastering the four aspects of Norgorber and being an incarnation of the dark god's will on Golarion. A brief glance across the meaning of the harrow cards seems to indicate that the most thematic spirits might be the Crows (NE dexterity) for murder, the Idiot (NE intelligence) for greed, the Mute Hag (NE wisdom) for secrets and the Snakebite (CE wisdom) for poison. Bonus point for actually being able to bind all four once properly leveled. Here's hoping for a decent mechanical fit!

3) Eireen the Empty
Her father was a medium careful not to allow himself to get possessed, but one who was nevertheless obsessed by the spirits influence, and so he altered his daughter by means of magic from birth to be little but a body for spirits to possess. Eireen have virtually no personality of her own, but always acts as if her bound spirits had full influence over her (but under player control of course).

4) Zalika the Scion of Legends
Zalika's family have chronicled their history since the days of Old Man Jatembe, and their lore is rich with heroes and villains alike. Using the powers that is her birthright, she's able to call upon the esoteric skills of her ancestors to build a legend of her own.


I don't know if this is a concern that actually needs addressing, but I'd really like more flexible choice in secondary spirit. You're picking either a spirit from the same ability score (which is a good selection) or you're picking a different ability score with no choice in the spirit. The Owl always gets paired with the same strength spirit, as does The Rabbit Prince. The Big Sky only goes with one dexterity spirit. Maybe if a spirit can count as another type, you can pick from any of those secondary spirits, gaining no benefit until the primary spirit triggers?

(I have my fingers crossed for an archetype that focuses on flexibility of spirits- it seems a little more like than a change to the spirit selection mechanics.)

Dark Archive

Right now that's the case. But when it goes live, you'll be able to pair those spirits with quite a few others*. It'll give a good bit more flexibility than we have at the moment.

*:
NN can pair with NG, NE, LN, CN and NN of different stats.
LG can pair with NG, CG, LN, LE and LG of different stats.
etc.


QuidEst wrote:

I don't know if this is a concern that actually needs addressing, but I'd really like more flexible choice in secondary spirit. You're picking either a spirit from the same ability score (which is a good selection) or you're picking a different ability score with no choice in the spirit. The Owl always gets paired with the same strength spirit, as does The Rabbit Prince. The Big Sky only goes with one dexterity spirit. Maybe if a spirit can count as another type, you can pick from any of those secondary spirits, gaining no benefit until the primary spirit triggers?

(I have my fingers crossed for an archetype that focuses on flexibility of spirits- it seems a little more like than a change to the spirit selection mechanics.)

You know what I would LOVE to see to solve that issue? A feat called "Spirit Partnership"; this lets you focus on one spirit, making it a more flexible in who the spirit is willing to "work with". This will let the spirit count as being any alignment for the purpose of which spirits you can legally bind next.

Paizo Employee Designer

Excaliburproxy wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

I don't know if this is a concern that actually needs addressing, but I'd really like more flexible choice in secondary spirit. You're picking either a spirit from the same ability score (which is a good selection) or you're picking a different ability score with no choice in the spirit. The Owl always gets paired with the same strength spirit, as does The Rabbit Prince. The Big Sky only goes with one dexterity spirit. Maybe if a spirit can count as another type, you can pick from any of those secondary spirits, gaining no benefit until the primary spirit triggers?

(I have my fingers crossed for an archetype that focuses on flexibility of spirits- it seems a little more like than a change to the spirit selection mechanics.)

You know what I would LOVE to see to solve that issue? A feat called "Spirit Partnership"; this lets you focus on one spirit, making it a more flexible in who the spirit is willing to "work with". This will let the spirit count as being any alignment for the purpose of which spirits you can legally bind next.

I am definitely considering cool and playful feats of that sort that delve into the interesting unexplored areas of the class.


So, posting this here from another thread, because I think it brings to light the importance of game editors and clear terminology (since people like my playgroup and I can all roll natural 1s our Linquistics checks to read...)

Mark Seifter wrote:


Yeah, woaaah. That explains everything. I was wondering why he was so convinced that he would hit 4 influence if there was a spirit he seanced a lot. If you needed to trance to get any powers from your spirit, he's actually right, you would hit 4 influence swiftly if you wanted to use any powers!

... wait, it doesn't?

So, let me see if I get this right, after carefully rereading this...

---

1) You know how to contact (X) number of Spirits. This number grows over time. This is like a hard cap on a Wizard's spellbook.

2) The Seance is not just making contact with all your Spirits and chose which ones you can Trance for that day - like how a Sorcerer has to meditate or a Wizard prepares which spells he can use - it's actually much more like a Binder's Summoning and Binding Ritual.

3) During your Seance, you choose 1 Spirit from the list of Spirits that you know as your Bound spirit for the day (borrowing terminology from the Binder, here). All other spirits are kept in an "Unbound Spirit Reserve".

While a Spirit is your Bound Spirit, you gain its Seance Bonus, Lesser Ability, and Spells Known for 24 hours; later, you gain its Intermediate, Greater, and then Supreme Ability for 24 hours as well.

Later levels allow you to have 2, then 3, and finally 4 Bound Spirits active per day. (I still think the way they interact is a little too complex, though - the Binder just added all their abilities together and seemed fine).

Whenever a Spirit becomes your Bound Spirit for the day, its Influence increases by 1.

4) You may also, as a Full-Round Action, enter a Trance, which allows you to choose one of your Unbound Spirits whose alignment exactly matches one of your Bound Spirits: for 1 minute, this Unbound Spirit becomes your Tranced Spirit, and you gain its Least Ability.

Whenever a Spirit becomes a Tranced Spirit, you gain its Least Ability for the duration of that Trance, and its Influence is increased by 1.

4a) If you have more than 1 Bound Spirit, you may switch out the "secondary" or lower Spirits with your Tranced Spirit at the end of the Trance (this seems overly complex, though)

---

If THAT'S how it works, then, yeah, I massively misunderstood.

Re-reading it with what you said, I started to understand it better.

Part of the issue is that there are a number of times when Spirits are referred to as "channeled," and the insinuation isn't clear as to whether it's meant to be one of those "Bound" Spirits, or whether it's any Spirit you simple made contact.

I think having very specific terminology like "Bound" "Unbound" "Tranced/Possessing," or somethings else that're a little more inspired than what I have, would help a lot in clearing up that sort of confusion.

Even other players in my group that have looked at this thought that Trancing was the only way to gain a spirit's abilities, etc.

Another, easily-fixable issue arises from the fact that Seance isn't it's own section. I highly recommend making Seance a section unto itself, since a massive part of the confusion from my players and I came from the fact that we thought the paragraphs:

Playtest wrote:


The medium gains the lesser spirit power from his channeled spirit at 1st level, the intermediate spirit power at 7th level, the greater spirit power at 13th level, and the supreme spirit power at 19th level. The spirit powers are described in the spirit’s entry.

In addition to granting power to the medium, each spirit
additionally inf luences the medium...

were simply describing, (half-fluffily) what happens when a Medium lets a Spirit possess them via Trance; we didn't realize that these effects happened BECAUSE of the Seance itself, that they happen the moment that a Medium BINDS one or more Spirits to himself, that those effects last for 24 hours to gain its effects, and Trancing is just on TOP of Binding a Spirit to a Medium.

So, yeah, this just comes down to a organization-of-information mis-communication (god that feels like a dirty rhyme).

Again, I think a lot of this is cleared up by:

a) listing the Seance under its own banner, completely separate from the Spirits

b) using specific terminology that can't be confused with general terms so that there isn't a confusion over what's a class term and what's just descriptive fluff.

---

So, yeah, my apologies for not getting this before (my face is kinda red now, since it's been pointed out and seems kinda obvious in retrospect).

I still have some issues with how crazy-complex the interactions between Bound Spirits are, the great number of spirits, and think the Medium should have a Spell List unto himself (with Spirits only adding Bonus Spells Known like how Bloodlines and Domains work), along with either a bigger body or increased spell pool, but I do feel that it's quite a lot more solid than I'd been giving it credit for before.


playing the medium again, was thinking that trance once a day feels inadequite. maybe cha mod+1/2 level?


Given what I've re-read now, I think a couple solutions to some of the gnarlier problems have come to light for me:

1) You know how to contact every one of the 54 Spirits available. You can also Bind any of the 54 spirits

2) During your Seance, you make Contact with up to 2 + Cha + 1/2 your Medium level number of Spirits per day. 1-4 (depending on level) of these Contacted Spirits become Bound to you for the next 24 hours. The rest remain as Contacted Spirits. These Contacted and Bound Spirits can be of any alignment.

3) Whenever you Bind a Spirit for the day during your morning Seance, if it is your EXACT Alignment, or within 1 step of your Alignment, it gains no Influence over you.

3a) If the Spirit is greater than 1 step away from your alignment, it gains 1 influence over you,

3b) If the Spirit is of the opposite alignment, it gains 2 Influence.

4) You may Trance any Contacted Spirit, regardless of its Alignment. You also Trance as a Move Action.

4a) When you Trance a Contacted Spirit whose Alignment is exactly the same as your own, it gains no Influence over you

4a) If the Spirit is an alignment other than your own, but not of the opposite alignment, it gains 1 Influence over you.

4b) If the Spirit is of the opposite alignment, it gains 2 Influence over you.

5) At the beginning of each day, during your Seance, before you have Bound any Spirits, all spirits that have 4 or greater Influence over you attempt to Oppress you. You must succeed on a Will Save (15 + 5 for each Influence point over 4). If you fail, that Spirit becomes one of your Bound Spirits (if more than one Spirit beats your Will Save, the DM determines which Spirit gains Influence over you).

5a) While you are Oppressed, you must perform the Compulsion of your Oppressing Spirits to the best of your abilities.

5b) If the Influence of a Spirit ever rises to over your Wisdom Score, you become Possessed. Your character's alignment changes to match the Possessing Spirit, and your character effectively becomes an NPC controlled by the DM for the next 24 hours.

6) At the end of each Seance, each Spirit you didn't Contact or Bind reduces its Influence over you by 1.

6a) Each Spirit you Contacted retains its previous Influence

7) Once a Spirit becomes Bound to you during your Seance, it can't be changed out during a Trance.

8) You may use Magic Items without the need for UMD if one of your current Bound Spirits has that spell listed under its Spells Known.

---

I think this'd keep the threat of Influence rising too high a real thing, while simultaneously making it harder to completely lose control of your character.

It also doesn't penalize you for using "friendly" spirits, and lets you have access to "enemy" spirits at a major cost - they quickly gain Influence over you.

Lantern Lodge

Feedback:

Built a medium for Society play, play tested in a lvl 1 scenario and a lvl 1 quest.

General review: Overall, I think this class is going to be a blast to RP (I'm torn between a wayang "small medium at large" and a Varisian harrower), but probably unpopular with the max-min crowd as it trades effectiveness for versatility.

Build:
A cha-based melee char makes for a challenging build. The recommendations I saw for brawler-like Str and 18 Cha were not both feasible with a 20pt buy, especially since I knew I wanted some skill pts for when using a dex card and con for when tanking under a Con card, etc. Nothing to dump but Wis which only got me so far.)

I ended up "tanking" both the scenario and the quest, using the Teamster (Con) spirit for one and the Demon Lantern (Dex) for the second. (I spent a trait on getting disable device as a class skill which went well with the second.)

What could be tweaked:
My GM was shaking his head at me dragging my wisp all over creation until something took a bite at it. May need to look at a duration for this?

What the class most needs:
Shield proficiency. A d10 base would be nice, especially if tanking is going to be a common expectation, but it was the lack of shield proficiency on a simple-weapons-only front-line melee character that left me scratching my head.

More cards initially or more gained with leveling. I realize spellcasters often have the "not-enough options at low levels" issue as well, but with there eventually being 54 cards to chose from, it would be nice to be able to use more than a tiny sliver of them. (Also not clear on why the cha cards give no bonus, but I quickly dismissed them as lvl 1 options in favor of str, dex and con.)

Thanks for reading.

See you on the Open Road,
~Aini


Seranov wrote:
Right now that's the case. But when it goes live, you'll be able to pair those spirits with quite a few others*. It'll give a good bit more flexibility than we have at the moment.

Really? I missed that. That's great, and precisely what I was looking for! The only thing I could wish for at this point is more skill points, and I play Sorcerers, so I'm used to it.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
You know what I would LOVE to see to solve that issue? A feat called "Spirit Partnership"; this lets you focus on one spirit, making it a more flexible in who the spirit is willing to "work with". This will let the spirit count as being any alignment for the purpose of which spirits you can legally bind next.
I am definitely considering cool and playful feats of that sort that delve into the interesting unexplored areas of the class.

Really looking forward to the archetypes and the awesome feat stuff! Mark, just wanted to say thanks for an awesome class, all the cool previews, and your activity on the thread.

Liberty's Edge

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This was brought up earlier, but I think the single most important change in helping to make Medium builds cool and flavorful was the idea that if the Spirit grants a Feat, it should grant an alternate (and additional) bonus to people who already possess said Feat.

People who constantly channel The Rabbit Prince should be encouraged to get Weapon Finesse, not discouraged, for example.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

This was brought up earlier, but I think the single most important change in helping to make Medium builds cool and flavorful was the idea that if the Spirit grants a Feat, it should grant an alternate (and additional) bonus to people who already possess said Feat.

People who constantly channel The Rabbit Prince should be encouraged to get Weapon Finesse, not discouraged, for example.

I definitely agree with this. Maybe there could be a short list of feats based on alignments and/or attributes. Whenever a spirit grants you a feat that you already have, you can choose a feat from this short list instead (this ends up being like a limited version of martial flexibility except you are locked into it all day or are limited to one feat during the length of the trance).

Paizo Employee Designer

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I'm considering this. It's likely to be a small boon, probably less powerful than a feat so you don't feel compelled to take the feat to get to the "real" power, but something to gain in case you already have it. One possibility is doubling the spirit's seance boon for yourself only. That would actually be pretty darn strong for a Beating medium who had IUS, but anyway I'm crunching numbers and thinking of several possibilities.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
I'm considering this. It's likely to be a small boon, probably less powerful than a feat so you don't feel compelled to take the feat to get to the "real" power, but something to gain in case you already have it. One possibility is doubling the spirit's seance boon for yourself only. That would actually be pretty darn strong for a Beating medium who had IUS, but anyway I'm crunching numbers and thinking of several possibilities.

Glad to hear it. :)


I have read through occult adventures and while I didn't run an actual playtest I made medium characters at multiple levels and compared it to other pathfinder classes. Here is my feedback:

1) Medium is.......interesting but I have quite a few complaints about it. First off when thinking of a medium I see a robed spell caster who channels the spirits, not someone who is on par with a fighter. I think the name is a little misleading for what the class does.

2) I don't see how it is balanced that a character can be as good as a "pure" melee character but at higher levels at the drop of a hat suddenly you have completely different abilities a la trance. Yes you do only have limited spell casting and you run the risk of becoming possessed, as long as you only do it once per day it's actually not a problem because of how influence works.

3) I'm concerned about reaching influence 4 and your character becoming possessed. A DM who is sick of your character or who has a malicious streak can attempt to kill you or the party since there is nothing defined about what happens when you become possessed. Not including the fact that if this happens you lose your character for 24 hours(which can actually be game sessions sometimes) and you then have to choose that spirit AGAIN the next day making trance and/or astral beacon unusable if it would affect that spirit.

4) It seems weird and a little overpowered that the str spirit bonus is a straight bonus to attack and damage rolls to everything. I think it should be a bit more conditional to what it applies to or apply to only attack rolls.

5) The Dex spirit bonus allows a medium to have the highest AC in the game compared to any other class. While other classes can reach that big of a bonus it required them spending a lot more gold to increase their ability scores than a medium needs to.

6) It isn't really specified how long a spirit will function as a differing ability when their conditions are met(Ex: the rabbit prince using weapon finesse, does it only last for a round or until new spirits are chosen?).

7) Oh dear lord did the powers seem alright at best:
Big Sky’s Greater Power is alright at best due to how darkness spells now work in pathfinder compared to 3.5, I recommend adding some effect similar to the supreme power where it either grants temporary hp or removes conditions or something.
The Beater’s Greater Power should have a fort save to negate the strength damage.
The Rabbit Prince’s Intermediate Power should only be usable so many times per day or it gains an influence when you use it. If fighting a big, burly boss and the player is aware that they hit on a d20 roll of 3 and that is the only enemy your party is dealing with they reserve their immediate action for each round and suddenly the boss fight that was supposed to be a challenge is now missing half his attacks or the wizard with an abysmal to hit now hits half the time with attacks making fights much easier.
It is up to the GM but I feel to prevent someone using The Desert’s Lesser Power, taking all the damage to themselves and then activate fast healing or regeneration to remove it all they should be unable to participate in the bond of reliance the next time it is used as the spirit is now aware that person is reliant. Also The Desert’s Greater Power an ally can only attempt to remove a negative condition from an ally 1/day so that after a fight the party doesn’t stand around removing all negative afflictions from each other, specifically poisons and diseases.
The waxworks lesser power should last for more than 1 round because unless you hit with multiple attacks it is next to impossible to entangle anyone making this spirit’s power next to worthless until you get greater powers.
The Rakshasa’s supreme power’s DC should be 10+½ medium’s level + Cha mod.
The Losts Lesser Power I feel should let you add or subtract your spirit bonus after seeing the roll from a confusion effect and maybe even increasing it to 3 times your spirit bonus because a lot of the time this power’s effect doesn’t give any benefit. For instance it could change an ally or yourself from babbling to hurting themselves, from being able to perform an action to babbling, or just not changing the outcome at all.
The Lost’s Greater Power should last for 1 round per level of the spell or spell-like ability since that power actually becomes more detrimental the more levels you gain in medium.
I’m assuming The Lost’s Supreme Power is supposed to work by them making a Will save each round while you babble and as long as they keep failing the will save they are fascinated as long as you babble and no one, besides you, attacks them.
The Liar’s Supreme Power’s DC should be 10 + ½ medium’s level + Cha mod.


Sorry I forgot to be constructive about why the rakshasa and liar power should change their dc. For your strongest ability from a spirit, a static save, even if it is an at-will ability is kind of underpowered compared to other classes high level abilities.It would help if you didn't have to jump through hoops for both of them to activate the spells but since you do it isn't really that ridiculous to change the dcs.


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Wow, lots of thoughts! My own:

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
2) I don't see how it is balanced that a character can be as good as a "pure" melee character but at higher levels at the drop of a hat suddenly you have completely different abilities a la trance. Yes you do only have limited spell casting and you run the risk of becoming possessed, as long as you only do it once per day it's actually not a problem because of how influence works.

Is it as good? I had some trouble getting it to function in melee as well as my Bloodrager around level 7. It's low on feats, doesn't get consistent spells, gets later iteratives, and doesn't get nearly as much by way of hitpoints. Trancing only ever gives you one new ability, though, so the big changes only happen between days. I didn't poke around it too much, though, so I'd love to see your builds! (As another 4/9 caster with a progression of abilities, Bloodrager seemed the most comparable to me.)

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
3) I'm concerned about reaching influence 4 and your character becoming possessed. A DM who is sick of your character or who has a malicious streak can attempt to kill you or the party since there is nothing defined about what happens when you become possessed. Not including the fact that if this happens you lose your character for 24 hours(which can actually be game sessions sometimes) and you then have to choose that spirit AGAIN the next day making trance and/or astral beacon unusable if it would affect that spirit.

If you don't trust the spirit and/or your GM, you never let yourself hit influence 4. You can try to bargain with the spirit before hitting 4 (obviously some, like The Liar, aren't really ones you're likely to be able to trust). And sometimes there's going to be a TPK anyway, so you might as well see what the spirit does. (Dex spirits are probably best for that as far as the whole getting away thing goes.)

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
4) It seems weird and a little overpowered that the str spirit bonus is a straight bonus to attack and damage rolls to everything. I think it should be a bit more conditional to what it applies to or apply to only attack rolls.

It's like swift studying with a Slayer or Investigator, I think.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
5) The Dex spirit bonus allows a medium to have the highest AC in the game compared to any other class. While other classes can reach that big of a bonus it required them spending a lot more gold to increase their ability scores than a medium needs to.

Alchemist beats it, hands down. Dex spirit grants +6 at level 20, while a True Mutagen grants +8, along with another +4 from increased Dex. If we're looking before level 20, Alchemist got that +6 (with an optional +3 from increased Dex) back at level 14, when the Dex spirit bonus was only +4. Alchemist also gets more defensive buffs to pump AC without spending money.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
6) It isn't really specified how long a spirit will function as a differing ability when their conditions are met(Ex: the rabbit prince using weapon finesse, does it only last...

The Rabbit Prince specifies that it's only while you attack. So for the attack itself, The Rabbit Prince is a Strength spirit. If that grants you a secondary strength spirit's powers, you're only getting the passive abilities. I think the others specified as well.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
Big Sky’s Greater Power is alright at best due to how darkness spells now work in pathfinder compared to 3.5, I recommend adding some effect similar to the supreme power where it either grants temporary hp or removes conditions or something.

Bright light is something that actually effects things, and by the time you get the power, it will override just about any darkness spell. When you can trance for it, you'll at least tie Deeper Darkness if you're invested in strength spirits. I wouldn't mind something stronger, but I've seen at-will darkness spells make life miserable in just about every campaign I've played that reached relevant levels.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
The Beater’s Greater Power should have a fort save to negate the strength damage.

Wouldn't object to that, but I view ability damage as a fairly painful thing in general. At 11th, Swashbuckler is dishing out no-save Strength, Dex, or Con bleed, and Rogue can deal two points on each sneak attack. There are a few other classes that get similar options. Time Oracle can dish out large chunks of strength damage a few times a day as a melee touch, I know.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
The Rabbit Prince’s Intermediate Power should only be usable so many times per day or it gains an influence when you use it. If fighting a big, burly boss and the player is aware that they hit on a d20 roll of 3 and that is the only enemy your party is dealing with they reserve their immediate action for each round and suddenly the boss fight that was supposed to be a challenge is now missing half his attacks or the wizard with an abysmal to hit now hits half the time with attacks making fights much easier.

Low-level trancing for it is handy, but it's only once per round because it's an immediate action. It can make one attack per round maybe miss, maybe hit. Personally, I'd probably use it for my second iterative or the first iterative of whatever's hitting me. The real advantage, I think, is that it prevents a crit on that attack. Why make the wizard hit half the time? He still won't do any damage. The boss isn't missing half his attacks, only half of his first iterative. Everything else is normal. And if he's using natural weapons, everything else gets the same to-hit.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
It is up to the GM but I feel to prevent someone using The Desert’s Lesser Power, taking all the damage to themselves and then activate fast healing or regeneration to remove it all they should be unable to participate in the bond of reliance the next time it is used as the spirit is now aware that person is reliant.

I don't know of too many things that allow you to turn fast healing on and off, but yeah, something like that makes sense. The best use I can think of for it, though, is to pass out all the damage evenly and have the Cleric channel to conserve resources.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
Also The Desert’s Greater Power an ally can only attempt to remove a negative condition from an ally 1/day so that after a fight the party doesn’t stand around removing all negative afflictions from each other, specifically poisons and diseases.

It only works on afflictions you don't have, so you can't use it on yourself. If you fail, you get the affliction, so you can't remove that affliction from anybody else. The risk of getting the affliction yourself, range of touch, the restriction on conditions you don't have, and the cost of a standard action seems like enough of a limit. Ooh! You're right, though- if you get immunity to disease, poison, or some other condition, you can remove it from everybody else. It's definitely an ultimate disease healer for villages once it gets an item for immunity.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
The waxworks lesser power should last for more than 1 round because unless you hit with multiple attacks it is next to impossible to entangle anyone making this spirit’s power next to worthless until you get greater powers.

I'd really like that, yeah, but it might be too good with natural attacks, etc.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
The Rakshasa’s supreme power’s DC should be 10+½ medium’s level + Cha mod.

When you really need it to work, you've got All Are Slaves to the Rakshasa to slap on a huge penalty to their save. If they make their save, there's no cost to All Are Slaves. Obviously, you don't want to do that at three influence. You can also trance for The Liar to boost the DC.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
The Losts Lesser Power I feel should let you add or subtract your spirit bonus after seeing the roll from a confusion effect and maybe even increasing it to 3 times your spirit bonus because a lot of the time this power’s effect doesn’t give any benefit. For instance it could change an ally or yourself from babbling to hurting themselves, from being able to perform an action to babbling, or just not changing the outcome at all.

Agreed that the lesser power seems a bit weak, only shifting things by a few percent. Some multiple of the spirit bonus would be nice.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
The Lost’s Greater Power should last for 1 round per level of the spell or spell-like ability since that power actually becomes more detrimental the more levels you gain in medium.

Or two rounds per spell level, since that would make it scale about the same for the highest-level spell being tossed around. Good idea!

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
I’m assuming The Lost’s Supreme Power is supposed to work by them making a Will save each round while you babble and as long as they keep failing the will save they are fascinated as long as you babble and no one, besides you, attacks them.

Yeah, Babble Supreme as a supernatural ability would normally take a standard action, meaning that you could never hit anybody while you fascinated them. (Under RAW, at any rate.) Should mention that it's a free action to use it.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
The Liar’s Supreme Power’s DC should be 10 + ½ medium’s level + Cha mod.

It's something like that. The Liar's Lesser Power adds its spirit bonus to the save DC. Level 20 DC is 20 + Cha, 21 + Cha if you took the feat for charisma spirits. Since both The Rakshasa and The Liar have solid scaling ways to boost DC, making the DC itself scale would make it impossible to resist. They function at the DC of the highest level spell you can cast, which seems reasonable.


I agree with quite a few things you said and I'll explain a few things and the things I disagree with.

QuidEst wrote:

Wow, lots of thoughts! My own:

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
2) I don't see how it is balanced that a character can be as good as a "pure" melee character but at higher levels at the drop of a hat suddenly you have completely different abilities a la trance. Yes you do only have limited spell casting and you run the risk of becoming possessed, as long as you only do it once per day it's actually not a problem because of how influence works.
Is it as good? I had some trouble getting it to function in melee as well as my Bloodrager around level 7. It's low on feats, doesn't get consistent spells, gets later iteratives, and doesn't get nearly as much by way of hitpoints. Trancing only ever gives you one new ability, though, so the big changes only happen between days. I didn't poke around it too much, though, so I'd love to see your builds! (As another 4/9 caster with a progression of abilities, Bloodrager seemed the most comparable to me.)

The way I made it, you take the Str, Dex and Con spirits as your vessels at higher level and I made a human medium compared to a human fighter, barbarian, and paladin. The str spirit bonus let him hit as hard as the fighter and close to the barbarian and hit harder than the paladin, the dex spirit kept my AC close to the fighter and paladin but beat the barbarian, and the con spirit just from statistics effectively raises your d8 to a d10 (gives close to a hp per hd, average of a d8 roll is 4.5 so 4.5+1=5.5 which is the average of a d10 roll). Obviously at lower levels, specifically 1-4, a medium is not nearly as good as the melee classes but from 5+ when you start getting multiple vessels it gets pretty dumb for a class that can trance and just change their abilities as needed at the drop of a hat.

QuidEst wrote:
If you don't trust the spirit and/or your GM, you never let yourself hit influence 4. You can try to bargain with the spirit before hitting 4 (obviously some, like The Liar, aren't really ones you're likely to be able to trust). And sometimes there's going to be a TPK anyway, so you might as well see what the spirit does. (Dex spirits are probably best for that as far as the whole getting away thing goes.)

If you can point out to me where it says you can bargain with spirits I would be a lot happier about that and to be fair it is pretty hard to get an influence of 4. My point I was trying to make is that if by some mistake on your part you do something and have to take an influence of 4(trance to switch to desert to keep an ally from dying of poison for instance) you're character is now trying to murder people or murder himself which is a pretty hefty drawback. Or worse yet you can't play your character for game sessions. Having something in your class that effectively says "You're out of the game or reroll your character." is a pretty major flaw.

QuidEst wrote:
ClcockworkKobold wrote:
4) It seems weird and a little overpowered that the str spirit bonus is a straight bonus to attack and damage rolls to everything. I think it should be a bit more conditional to what it applies to or apply to only attack rolls.
It's like swift studying with a Slayer or Investigator, I think.

Slayer and investigator both have some penalties to those abilities, for both it's only against one target and you have to spend an action to activate both and for investigator it's precision damage so it doesn't work on half the monsters you encounter. Meanwhile a medium's spirit bonus is always functioning against everything, with everything you do.

QuidEst wrote:
ClcockworkKobold wrote:
Also The Desert’s Greater Power an ally can only attempt to remove a negative condition from an ally 1/day so that after a fight the party doesn’t stand around removing all negative afflictions from each other, specifically poisons and diseases.
It only works on afflictions you don't have, so you can't use it on yourself. If you fail, you get the affliction, so you can't remove that affliction from anybody else. The risk of getting the affliction yourself, range of touch, the restriction on conditions you don't have, and the cost of a standard action seems like enough of a limit. Ooh! You're right, though- if you get immunity to disease, poison, or some other condition, you can remove it from everybody else. It's definitely an ultimate disease healer for villages once it gets an item for immunity.

Unless I missed this there is nothing stopping this scenario: Alright so our barbarian is going to remove the disease from the wizard. *rolls* Lame, the barbarian botched now he has the disease. Alright cleric is going to remove try and remove it from the barbarian. *rolls* Hey! He made it! Now the barbarian is disease free once again. He is going to roll to remove disease from the wizard........ So on and so forth, granted you run the risk of disease-ing half the party but it can also lead to the party never being at risk for dealing with diseases or only a few rounds of poison as long as you have the guy in the party who makes the fort save on a 4 remove everyone's disease since there is no limitation to using this ability.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Clockwork Kobold wrote:
The way I made it, you take the Str, Dex and Con spirits as your vessels at higher level and I made a human medium compared to a human fighter, barbarian, and paladin. The str spirit bonus let him hit as hard as the fighter and close to the barbarian and hit harder than the paladin, the dex spirit kept my AC close to the fighter and paladin but beat the barbarian, and the con spirit just from statistics effectively raises your d8 to a d10 (gives close to a hp per hd, average of a d8 roll is 4.5 so 4.5+1=5.5 which is the average of a d10 roll). Obviously at lower levels, specifically 1-4, a medium is not nearly as good as the melee classes but from 5+ when you start getting multiple vessels it gets pretty dumb for a class that can trance and just change their abilities as needed at the drop of a hat.

Hey CK. I'm glad to see someone providing feedback from the other direction than normal. I think it isn't cut and dry that the medium is outperforming the fighter on spirit bonuses alone, but I agree that this is why the medium is balanced with 3/4 BAB.

If we look at a fighter's to-hit and damage vs a medium at level 17 or something (high but before the fighter's ridiculously powerful capstone), let's say the medium is in the best possible situation--spirit specialization on a Str spirit that scales the bonus higher, like The Fiend, and he's scaled it all the way up. So +10 spirit bonus +12 BAB, +22 to hit and +10 damage. All else being equal (including feats they both take, etc), the fighter has +1 to hit and +4 to damage from fighter-only feats and +4 to both from weapon training (assuming you aren't getting into fighter-only items like gloves of dueling since there aren't any medium-only items out yet), so with +17 BAB, that's +22 to hit (same as the medium who doubled his spirit bonus) and +8 damage (slightly less). Now granted the medium has other powers that could help. If the medium has the Bear, for instance, then he's Huge, doing even more damage and with reach. However, if the medium isn't doubling the Str spirit bonus, he'll still be behind the fighter by +5 to hit, which can be significant.

In my mind, this actually puts the medium in a good place to be. It's a bit behind the fighter in DPR unless it has an advantageous case, but it has greater utility and flexibility by far.


Whew! Good discussion. Looking back over, I realized I'd forgotten about replacing secondary or lower spirits for the rest of the day as one of the trance options.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
The way I made it, you take the Str, Dex and Con spirits as your vessels at higher level and I made a human medium compared to a human fighter, barbarian, and paladin. [clever math] it gets pretty dumb for a class that can trance and just change their abilities as needed at the drop of a hat.

Okay… so you're only got the spirit powers of your primary spirit. Everything else is just for the spirit bonuses. Hadn't looked at that. At level 11, you catch up to a Fighter in terms of pre-feat power then. But do your primary spirit's powers alone (plus 4/9 spell-casting off the narrow spell list) really measure up combat-wise to armor training and six bonus combat feats, getting a third iterative, qualifying for more feats, and getting earlier damage increases from Power Attack? Not to mention free proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons.

Also, until level 13, the abilities you can get at the drop of a hat are only going to be Lesser ones. Even then, you have to trade out your spirit bonus by switching to your primary stat. (Exceptions exist, like The Rabbit Prince, but he requires giving up extra damage from two-handing and a non-light weapon.) That, or you're only getting the powers for a minute at a time, and they're just Lesser regardless of level.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
If you can point out to me where it says you can bargain with spirits I would be a lot happier about that and to be fair it is pretty hard to get an influence of 4. My point I was trying to make is that if by some mistake on your part you do something and have to take an influence of 4(trance to switch to desert to keep an ally from dying of poison for instance) you're character is now trying to murder people or murder himself which is a pretty hefty drawback. Or worse yet you can't play your character for game sessions. Having something in your class that effectively says "You're out of the game or reroll your character." is a pretty major flaw.

The bargaining thing was mentioned by Mark in the discussion. It's purely roleplaying the class feature, and so it's reliant on your GM and how you are portraying the spirits.

Looking at The Desert example… Trancing to get The Desert to remove a poison doesn't even work until level 13, but I get the gist. If you do it on purpose, that's your call. If it's an accident, that kind of ranks up there with misplacing your spell book or getting your Witch's familiar killed. It's something you're supposed to keep track of, except it's 100% in your control. But even if you do mess up, the GM is now playing you as possessed by "a spirit of assistance and working together in a bleak time or place to reach great things," whose compulsion is over-reliance. A GM killing you or your party members with that is probably not worth playing under. For more violent spirits, yes, there's that risk, so it's necessary to be extra careful. For the multi-session issue, Mark mentioned that GMs might let you play the character, so long as you're playing it as the spirit.

The likeliest one I can think of being a problem is The Lost. Trading in any mind-affecting effect for confusion at the cost of one influence… certainly tempting. At three influence, you're just asking yourself whether you'd rather be controlled by the BBEG or an evil nihilistic spirit.

(Of course, when I designed a Medium, it was with several spirits that had active intent to kill her or ruin everything she'd worked for, but have been forced into submission.)

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
Slayer and investigator both have some penalties to those abilities, for both it's only against one target and you have to spend an action to activate both and for investigator it's precision damage so it doesn't work on half the monsters you encounter. Meanwhile a medium's spirit bonus is always functioning against everything, with everything you do.

For Slayer at least, by the levels you're looking at, it's a swift action and it can be applied to two targets. It's not often you need to hit lots of different targets in one round, is it? I don't see a huge difference in the practical effect. Slayer's ability also increases the DCs of other abilities, making it more powerful, and Investigator can trigger sneak attack dice with it. I think it's a lot less than half, though, since undead and constructs are vulnerable.

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
Unless I missed this there is nothing stopping this scenario: Alright so our barbarian is going to remove the disease from the wizard. *rolls* Lame, the barbarian botched now he has the disease. Alright cleric is going to remove try and remove it from the barbarian. *rolls* Hey! He made it! Now the barbarian is disease free once again. He is going to roll to remove disease from the wizard........ So on and so forth, granted you run the risk of disease-ing half the party but it can also lead to the party never being at risk for dealing with diseases or only a few rounds of poison as long as you have the guy in the party who makes the fort save on a 4 remove everyone's disease since there is no limitation to using this ability.

How does the Barbarian remove the disease? How does the Cleric remove it? The ability only allows you (the Medium) to attempt to remove it. So the scenario above would be…

The Medium is going to remove the disease from the Wizard. *rolls* Lame, the Medium botched and now he has the disease. Now we have two people with the disease, and the Medium can't remove it from anybody. When you get your final ability, yes, you can go around removing diseases to your heart's content. But that's either free at level 19, or costs an influence at level 13, and you're using your primary spirit slot

Sovereign Court

Mark Seifter wrote:


If we look at a fighter's to-hit and damage vs a medium at level 17 or something (high but before the fighter's ridiculously powerful capstone), let's say the medium is in the best possible situation--spirit specialization on a Str spirit that scales the bonus higher, like The Fiend, and he's scaled it all the way up. So +10 spirit bonus +12 BAB, +22 to hit and +10 damage...

...However, if the medium isn't doubling the Str spirit bonus, he'll still be behind the fighter by +5 to hit, which can be significant.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, for those worried about the Medium eclipsing Fighter) with how difficult it is to do so with The Fiend, I don't suspect these kinds of scenarios will happen often.

Paizo Employee Designer

Lukas Stariha wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:


If we look at a fighter's to-hit and damage vs a medium at level 17 or something (high but before the fighter's ridiculously powerful capstone), let's say the medium is in the best possible situation--spirit specialization on a Str spirit that scales the bonus higher, like The Fiend, and he's scaled it all the way up. So +10 spirit bonus +12 BAB, +22 to hit and +10 damage...

...However, if the medium isn't doubling the Str spirit bonus, he'll still be behind the fighter by +5 to hit, which can be significant.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, for those worried about the Medium eclipsing Fighter) with how difficult it is to do so with The Fiend, I don't suspect these kinds of scenarios will happen often.

If you're fighting a hard-to-hit foe at high levels, the paladin's supreme ability will get you close to that. Also, I mathed wrong. It should have been +12 spirit bonus due to specialization, with Fiend doubled. With paladin, you'll probably have +9, which is mighty close to the fighter (in fact, with Bear too, the size may be enough to put you over), but then that uses your supreme ability to do it.

Sovereign Court

Mark Seifter wrote:


If you're fighting a hard-to-hit foe at high levels, the paladin's supreme ability will get you close to that. Also, I mathed wrong. It should have been +12 spirit bonus due to specialization, with Fiend doubled. With paladin, you'll probably have +9, which is mighty close to the fighter (in fact, with Bear too, the size may be enough to put you over), but then that uses your supreme ability to do it.

However, the Bear's size isn't helping your to-hit, so its not catching up to the fighter there.

One thing that does catch the Medium up to the Fighter's accuracy isn't necessarily a feature, but how well natural attacks work with it due to the primary attacks being at full BAB. Having built a Nagaji medium with 4 attacks at level 7, (Fiend Bite, Bear Claws and a secondary Tail Slap from Dangerous Tail) I can say that in combination with the Bear's size increases, the Medium can be an incredibly powerful combatant if one chooses to go this route. Even if the Medium gets no other spirits that give natural attacks (I would expect at least one more to give a gore attack) there are several ways of increasing your attack number outside of the class (Skinwalker variants/Nagaji as race, dipping Barb 1 level, Helm of the Mammoth Lord, etc)


Well thanks for the responses all! Unfortunately I didn't get to actually playtest most of what I saw that seemed unbalanced so if it seems good then that is fine by me. Now pretty much the only complaint I really have is the loss of character while possessed if there could be some more concrete rules or even optional rules once the class is finished up about what a character actually deals with other than you have to act a certain way I would be happy.


I mean to clarify rules so a player can continue playing their character.

Sovereign Court

Clockwork Kobold wrote:
I mean to clarify rules so a player can continue playing their character.

The easiest solution is simple, actually. Don't let the player go to 4 influence with any one spirit. Set a hard cap at 3 for them and if they are at 3 with that spirit, they cannot trance to or use any ability with that spirit that would increase influence (ie All Are Slaves to the Rakshasa). This is almost undoubtedly how PFS will rule this.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

As written, I think the biggest remaining problem with the medium's influence is the "PFS Prank" approach where a group of four or six players decide to play a (hopefully lighthearted) prank on a friendly PFS GM. Have everyone play a medium and get your influence up to 4 (Rakshasa maybe?) in a session that takes place over a single day, thus making the poor GM stuck running everything him or herself for the entire session!

Given the ease of GMing your way out of it I don't think it's that big a deal at all. Just a funny edge case that might cause problems for a new GM.

From a player angle, it's one of those things where you maybe treat 3 as the hard cap but you have an option of channeling to try to avoid a bad situation. So maybe instead of dying you hand your character over to the GM to run. Neither one is a great option, but I'd probably rather have a character I don't control for a session than have him die.

That said, don't get to 4 influence with Unicorn!

Paizo Employee Designer

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I think the response to the "PFS Prank" is to fade to black (the characters have no memories of it, after all) and then add humorous or interesting moments for the rest of the scenario where the characters find out more and more about what they did that last day, with positive and negative reactions from NPCs who seem to have met them before. "Oh wow, you're the guy who helped me fix my roof yesterday. Thanks so much!" and "Hey, there's the guy who pulled up my whole vegetable garden and devoured it all!"

Paizo Employee Designer

As an aside, it's looking like this weekend was lighter than usual on medium playtests. The dice gods are fickle and one can never say for sure, but I am currently predicting that we will fall shy of the 7 unlocked spirits (currently at 5/7) necessary to unlock Mark beseeching John Compton for beseech in PFS before July. In the hopes that this message will spur you to report more medium playtests, I'm going to be increasing the chance of unlocks by 50% for today and tomorrow until (if) we get 7. No need to run scenarios all night though—I know from the counts of poll numbers that there's enough people out there, so just get all your friends who played mediums to post their playtest data and we should be fine (but, y'know, always safe to run a few today just in case). I did my part (John, Linda, and I unlocked 2 of the 5 so far with our medium trifecta), so let's work together and pull this off!


I was going to playtest my Spiritualist tonight but I will likely be shelving him due to the current state of the class. I'll see if I can get a Medium put together in time. The other option is to try the newly tweaked Mesmerist. In case you think any of those would be most useful for the playtest as a whole.

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