Yeah, see, the problem is that damage is out of line only compared to the base damage of the blasts. Compared to other classes, it's pretty spot on.
My love (and, frankly, defense) of this class was always predicted on the idea that damage would be increased. If there's no damage buff coming, and utility isn't hugely improved, I am going to be hugely disappointed (not in general--Medium will still be awesome--just with Kineticist).
I guess my point is that the proposed individual blasts+mods SHOULDN'T be out of line once the needed buff to base damage is included.
But really, I think I discovered another issue with the class I barely noticed before because substances were so junky in the playtest. The problem is that you can't usably combine form and substance infusions until 11th Level (and then, you're not using your 10th level stuff, you're stuck with 1st and 6th)! Burn costs have to go down or specializations need to go up.
Wsrlocks got shapes and substances combining at no cost (burn) and if you ported a warlock directly to Pathdinder as is, it would be among the bottom tiers, maybe, just maybe at the tier of barbarians or rangers. If kineticists have to manage Burn (and again, I like Burn, no complaints about it conceptually), they need to get something stronger out of it than warlocks got for free.
Mods at lvl 10
+6 con, +3 FtB. Maybe +7 con if you're lucky. (+5 more for non-touch blasts)So if I do the same number of dice as a regular attack, but add mods to every single one of them...
5x(3.5+9)
5×12.5
62.5 damage.
Plus 5x5 for non touch blasts is 87.5.
Instead of 5d6+12.5= 30, 35 for non touch.I'd rather not, I think.
Edit, math error, the +5 to each dice wouldn't be that way it would be +1 each, so not 87.5, just 67.5.
Still way out of line unless you are vs a resistance or DR. Now, yes, resistance or DR of any kind will murder this attack. But against anything I get to bypass? DR/ magic? Resistance to the wrong element?
This can get pretty nasty, especially if I want to composite maximize empower it for a nova like none other.
The reason I endorse dropping the bonuses alltogether is so we can get more attacks with it, because if we get full bonuses to every attack this becomes very powerful at high numbers of attacks. We aren't like the TWF rogue, who gets worse accuracy every other swing. We will hit with most of these attacks.
That's really not as much damage as you think it is.
Say you have 22 Con, and Feel the Burn +3 at 10th level, like you said. Unsure where you're getting "+5 more for non-touch blasts".
You're hitting 5 attacks, for 1d6+9 damage apiece. Total 5d6+45 damage, average of around 62 damage (again, about like you said). Which is good, but not gamebreaking in any sense.
Compare to the standard Archer, who has roughly the same number of attacks, for roughly the same static modifier. But doesn't have to worry about SR or Energy resistances, and probably has Clustered Shots to laugh at DR.
Look at say, a Bard. 16 Str, +2 Bow, +2 Inspire Courage, so he's got +7 to each hit instead of +9, slightly made up for by his damage dice being d8 instead of d6. He shoots 4 attacks a round (2 BaB, 1 Rapid Shot, 1 Manyshot), for 1d8+7 apiece, grand total 4d8+28 average 46 damage.
Now look at a Fighter Archer, 16 Str, +2 Bow, +2 Weapon Training, +2 Weapon Specialization, +6 Deadly Aim, for 4 attacks at 1d8+15 apiece, 4d8+60, average 78. Bump that up to 86 if he managed to get his hands on some Gloves of Dueling.
That is PERFECT. You're about halfway between a Bard (as far from a primary combatant as you can be while still being viable and good) and a Fighter (THE damage guy).
As the Kineticist should be, as a 3/4 BaB class whose main schtick is damage dealing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Clearly I should not have been previewing potential wild talents before the post with teasers about the other changes to the class, since they lack additional context. I will stop for now.
Clearly I should not have been previewing potential wild talents before the post with teasers about the other changes to the class, since they lack additional context. I will stop for now.
No! Look at what our hubris has wrought! Sorry, Mark. I think we're just the wrong combination of antsy and passionate.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Clearly I should not have been previewing potential wild talents before the post with teasers about the other changes to the class, since they lack additional context. I will stop for now.No! Look at what our hubris has wrought! Sorry, Mark. I think we're just the wrong combination of antsy and passionate.
For just one example, the net sum of my desired changes to damage would alter Rynjin's math of his version of flurry such that the kineticist was dealing more damage than the fighter with gloves of dueling.
For another example...well, let's just say that having all different sorts of infusions is a whole lot more fun if we get to revert back to my original version of infusion specialization where you get to essentially pick your specialization on the fly each time you blast... :D
Clearly I should not have been previewing potential wild talents before the post with teasers about the other changes to the class, since they lack additional context. I will stop for now.No! Look at what our hubris has wrought! Sorry, Mark. I think we're just the wrong combination of antsy and passionate.For just one example, the net sum of my desired changes to damage would alter Rynjin's math of his version of flurry such that the kineticist was dealing more damage than the fighter with gloves of dueling.
For another example...well, let's just say that having all different sorts of infusions is a whole lot more fun if we get to revert back to my original version of infusion specialization where you get to essentially pick your specialization on the fly each time you blast... :D
My faith was well placed. You are awesome :D
Now, who do we have to bribe/kidnap to get this meeting pushed up to now?
And while context is nice, knowing that context will exist is enough for me. I'm plenty good with hearing spoilers. :)
Yep, but I have to take the net result, and I'm afraid we've all been outvoted by the people who didn't like seeing it without the context.
|
And while context is nice, knowing that context will exist is enough for me. I'm plenty good with hearing spoilers. :)Yep, but I have to take the net result, and I'm afraid we've all been outvoted by the people who didn't like seeing it without the context.
On the contrary, I think everyone here likes getting a peek behind the curtain. We're just so anxious to see the final form that we jump to conclusions and over-analyse every little tidbit. If you do decide to share a few more breadcrumbs, just be sure to remind people that we don't know everything and that we should keep that in mind.
Don't be afraid to knock some heads together to get that meeting scheduled! (And to whom should we ship cases of Red Bull?)
And while context is nice, knowing that context will exist is enough for me. I'm plenty good with hearing spoilers. :)Yep, but I have to take the net result, and I'm afraid we've all been outvoted by the people who didn't like seeing it without the context.I think people have just been waiting so long to hear what's being changed that everything you say becomes the net change in our heads. Sorry if it feels like a pile-on, it's just been a while and we're anxious.
I know my first game post-playtest is this Saturday. I'm trying to decide whether to play my Kineticist or not, but I don't want to play it again without the updates. I'd rather have more opportunities to test the "completed" class at lower levels, before I have the GP/PP to start modifying it via items and boons.
If this is PFS (which I intuited it might be due to the use of PP and boons), PFS seems like it's surely going to stick to the actual playtest document and not to the teasers I give (not least of which because the teasers won't include the specific new wording for everything).
Must be a pretty thick red tape forest to hold y'all back this long
As an aside, are you finding anything post-playtest that's been in this thread to be relevant and helpful, or is sticking around in here brainstorming not really counting for much?
In other words, should we really still be posting in here (as far as it matters to anyone on your end) or is further conversation here better served moving to a speculation/off topic thread?
Well it's most red tape-est time of the year ;)
As you might imagine, most of what has been said after the playtest had been said before, somewhere or another. The same is true at the tail end of the playtest as well. I still check the thread anyway every once in a while, but you shouldn't expect it to have much if any influence on the final design. That said, if you're having fun, no need to stop until it's locked!
Pfft.. the thread got locked a long time ago. It's just that everyone took that trait to get past magical traps as a rogue and we've just been picking the lock.
If this is PFS (which I intuited it might be due to the use of PP and boons), PFS seems like it's surely going to stick to the actual playtest document and not to the teasers I give (not least of which because the teasers won't include the specific new wording for everything).
Aww PFS is gonna stick with 2 skill points per level? Gonna have to buy some magic items to up my PFS pyro's basic out-of-combat versatility.
For just one example, the net sum of my desired changes to damage would alter Rynjin's math of his version of flurry such that the kineticist was dealing more damage than the fighter with gloves of dueling.
Can't...stop...speculating...
So, to bea 86, what could change?
Doubling FtB only adds 15--not enough. Starting at 2d6 instead bumps it all by 17.5. Still no good. Upgrade to d8s? Only 5. D10s are only 10. An item that adds damage (in the headband slot?) would add 5-10 depending on cost and actual bonus.
Doubling all dice (1 per level instead of every other) is way too much.
I think it must be multiple little things from my above list. I think ftb is doubling for sure, but I don't know what else it could be. Anyone else have any ideas?
Knowing that there is context really helps.
hmm... I'm assuming the on the fly infusions will either be a pick from all every blast or you know x number of infusions per level and you can pick from any on that list on the fly (like medium with his number of known spirits).
For just one example, the net sum of my desired changes to damage would alter Rynjin's math of his version of flurry such that the kineticist was dealing more damage than the fighter with gloves of dueling.Can't...stop...speculating...
So, to bea 86, what could change?
Doubling FtB only adds 15--not enough. Starting at 2d6 instead bumps it all by 17.5. Still no good. Upgrade to d8s? Only 5. D10s are only 10. An item that adds damage (in the headband slot?) would add 5-10 depending on cost and actual bonus.
Doubling all dice (1 per level instead of every other) is way too much.
I think it must be multiple little things from my above list. I think ftb is doubling for sure, but I don't know what else it could be. Anyone else have any ideas?
To help or perhaps just stir your speculation a bit more, I think due to being confused by Shiroi's pre-edit numbers, Rynjin had made a small error in his calculation. This is crucial to getting more damage than the gloves damage without using any magic items for the kineticist using only my preliminary desired changes.
|
Hi everyone, and thanks for playtesting the kineticist. I'm Mark, and I'm the kineticist design lead and your liaison for this playtest thread.
I will be updating this post occasionally as necessary with clarifications and other goodies, so do what you need to do to keep your eye on this post or just check it occasionally.
For starters, you're probably looking at getting more wild talents, so why not grab a feat for that which I would like you to playtest (don't mind the wording, just use it; and it's not PFS legal!):
Extra Wild Talent
Prerequisites: kineticist level 6th
Benefit: You gain a wild talent that requires kineticist level 1st. At kineticist level 10th, you can instead choose to gain a wild talent that requires kineticist level 6th. At kineticist level 16th, you can instead choose to gain a wild talent that requires kineticist level 10th. In any case, you can't choose a wild talent if you don't meet its prerequisites.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, you must choose a different wild talent.
One of the things that should be changed is the level you can get this, unless at level 6 you're going to give the PC a bonus feat as a class feature, which they can then take this. So unless you're expecting obvious multiclassing, this should be either level 5, or level 7, when a Pathfinder character gets access to a bonus feat. Level 5 would suffice since it's a 1st level talent. Be the same as when a sorcerer gets a new 1st level known spell.
I spent most of the playtest focused on the Medium...so have just been getting to some of the other classes...all in all, I like the keneticist...and that's coming from someone who not horribly into elemental themed stuff. My first thought was that I could pretty easily re-skin a Spellfire wielder with this class...something like
Class skills: A spellfire wielder adds Kn: Arcana and Spellcraft to her list of class skills.
Simple Blast: A spellfire wielder has access to the following simple blast wild talent.
Spellfire blast (Sp): You release a bolt of searing spellfire at a single foe as a ranged touch attack.
If you hit, the target suffers an amount of force damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 your Constitution modifier.
This damage increases by 1d6 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st. Spell resistance applies.
Defense: a spellfire wielder has access to the following defensive wild talent at 2nd level.
Spell eater (Su): you gain spell resistance equal to your keneticist level + 11.
As an immediate action, any single target spell or effect that fails to penetrate your SR increases your current effective level of burn by an amount equal to the spell level of the effect, for a number of rounds equal to the spell level.
Wild Talents:
1st: Extended Range, Kenetic healer,
6th: Snaking, Torrent, Fire sight,
10th: Chain lightning, Cyclone, Spray, Ride the blast,
16th: Explosion, Pure flame, Sharding,
create a few new wild talents...and BINGO...the spellfire weilder I have always wanted ;)
That said, I hope they come up with a few more options less tied to the four basic elements...or methods of modifying basic elements, for example "hell fire" or such.
|
|
I spent most of the playtest focused on the Medium...so have just been getting to some of the other classes...all in all, I like the keneticist...and that's coming from someone who not horribly into elemental themed stuff. My first thought was that I could pretty easily re-skin a Spellfire wielder with this class...something like
Class skills: A spellfire wielder adds Kn: Arcana and Spellcraft to her list of class skills.
Simple Blast: A spellfire wielder has access to the following simple blast wild talent.
Spellfire blast (Sp): You release a bolt of searing spellfire at a single foe as a ranged touch attack.
If you hit, the target suffers an amount of force damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 your Constitution modifier.
This damage increases by 1d6 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st. Spell resistance applies.Defense: a spellfire wielder has access to the following defensive wild talent at 2nd level.
Spell eater (Su): you gain spell resistance equal to your keneticist level + 11.
As an immediate action, any single target spell or effect that fails to penetrate your SR increases your current effective level of burn by an amount equal to the spell level of the effect, for a number of rounds equal to the spell level.Wild Talents:
1st: Extended Range, Kenetic healer,
6th: Snaking, Torrent, Fire sight,
10th: Chain lightning, Cyclone, Spray, Ride the blast,
16th: Explosion, Pure flame, Sharding,create a few new wild talents...and BINGO...the spellfire weilder I have always wanted ;)
That said, I hope they come up with a few more options less tied to the four basic elements...or methods of modifying basic elements, for example "hell fire" or such.
The only thing missing is a way to heal your comrades like the water kineticist can. That's what our current spellfire user does. He's the medic.
|
|
I'd like to add an upgrade for the pyrokineticist's Searing Flesh ability. Make it affect all melee attacks, and give fire resistance 5. It's Reflex Negates. The amount of natural and unarmed attacks that a pyrokineticist will be hit with during his career, is probably only going to amount of a handful.
I'd set it up like this. At level 1, it works as is. At level 3, it provides fire resistance 5. At level 5, the Searing Flesh creates just enough heat anyone who attacks his square with a hand held weapon takes the damage. At level 7, the damage increases. At level 10, it provides fire resistance 10. At level 12, the damage increases, and so on.
At certain levels, you could be glowing like a torch.
The main difference is that instead of the searing flesh being infinite, it's now level rounds per day + Con modifier.
A feat could also be made that would allow you to envelope a 5 foot radius with the heat for a round, as a standard action, but instead of Reflex negates, it could be Reflex half.
I've played a pyrokineticist four different times now at various levels, and it seems to be the only one that really got the short end of the stick.
I'd honestly wish this version of the class, and same with the others that have elemental attacks, gained something like 3.5's Searing Spell metamagic feat. You put it on a spell, and negate any resistance, or do half damage against immunity.
The only thing missing is a way to heal your comrades like the water kineticist can. That's what our current spellfire user does. He's the medic.
I think Kenetic healer covers that doesn't it ?
Well, Rynjin didn't know what the +5 was for (it was for 5d6+5 base damage), removed it, and then forgot to add the 1 back (1d6+1 base). So, That makes the real potential damage 67.5. Doubling FtB, which I am so sure is happening would result in 82.5 damage.
Then, it's just a +1 damage per hit away from out doing the fighter (albeit by a slim margin). Eliminating an item as the source, it could be a bump up to d8s or making base damage Xd6+2X, rather than Xd6+X. Or both, since he didn't say, "only just barely better." Maybe FtB is tripled, frankly. Or, it gets treated like a two-handed weapon and adds 1.5x Con?
Just some brief notes from my game so far as a level 3 Human Hydrokineticist (alongside a standard Greatsword using Barbarian, a standard Str Magus, a thrown weapon Hunter with a Tiger, and a Gnomish Iron Priest of Brigh focused on crafting):
1) Our GM gave everyone two extra skill points per level (plus Mark confirmed at least 4) and our relatively high stat array gave me 14 Int, so I'm rocking 9 maxed skills and we agreed that Knowledge: Planes should be on the Kineticist class list. Using traits, I am the party face and, well, we're already equipped to be the stealthy guy, so, I've contributed plenty out of combat. I'm basically doing all the talking, which is right up my alley, though, utterly unrelated to the Kineticist I suppose. Maybe just a request to get Planes officially added (and Acrobatics, actually). I'd love Diplomacy/Bluff, but I understand why that might not happen, since it's not especially thematic.
2) I've used Kinetic Cover to make ice walls out of combat a couple of times, but it would take a lot of effort to explain the context of how they were useful. I was almost able to help walk across a river using the ice walls to make a bridge, but the group questioned if the ice was strong enough to hold us and they wanted to swim anyway to draw out the monster we knew was somewhere under the surface. It wasn't like, amazing exactly, and we could have solved the problems in other ways, but it was cool enough.
3) In two sessions, we had one fight so far with some kind of Crocodile. I know for a fact it wasn't the base Crocodile, but it also wasn't a dire one, so, I think he must have done some customizing. Its AC was somewhere in the 16-17 range (never zeroed in exactly on that) and it had somewhere between 21 and 38 HP. I won initiative, but on the first three rounds, I rolled 1, 1, and 5 to hit. I was stunned the thing survived long enough for me to get a 4th crack at it, but we were all really pathetic. The Magus connected on two out of seven swings (one was an AoO) for 20 damage total, but nobody else landed a blow in 3 rounds (including the croc). It was a total whiff fest. I finally connected round 4 for 18 damage (near max) and finished it.
Overall, I'm having fun, but, it's still the beginning, and so relatively little of that fun had anything to do with being a Kineticist. I'll post more about it as we go, even if it turns out irrelevant in the end.
So did they ever have this meeting about the classes yet?
No it has bin delay twice now :(
It's because they know we're waiting for it. I'm betting it won't happen until after the end of the year.
I just hope they have the meeting and get enough time to alter stuff before they're forced to submit to the printers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just hope they have the meeting and get enough time to alter stuff before they're forced to submit to the printers.
The printers, at least, won't be a concern. We have a really solid amount of time for the class section thanks to tightly budgeted playtest scheduling that coincided well with freelancer turnovers of other sections.
That's really great to hear :)
Mark...what is the likelihood that we will see other "elements" to build keneticist with ?
For example "eldritch" that is more in line with the 3.5 Warlock...
So... Jason posted on his Facebook that he got drunk at the Paizo Christmas party.
Y u party when work needs done? :P
At this point, I'm feeling there might not be a meeting during this stage, so if we don't have one by the end of the week, I'll almost certainly post some maybes on Friday.
That is both reassuring and disappointing. But, significantly better than nothing so thanks.
That is both reassuring and disappointing. But, significantly better than nothing so thanks.
It will be an early holiday gift for all of you guys. At least there is a firmer timetable now.
At this point, I'm feeling there might not be a meeting during this stage, so if we don't have one by the end of the week, I'll almost certainly post some maybes on Friday.
Any chance of you pushing those up to Thursday? That's my last session before Christmas :D
I'm appreciative of anything we get, though, truly.
At this point, I'm feeling there might not be a meeting during this stage, so if we don't have one by the end of the week, I'll almost certainly post some maybes on Friday.Any chance of you pushing those up to Thursday? That's my last session before Christmas :D
I'm appreciative of anything we get, though, truly.
Maybe, we'll see what I can do. Definitely not Wednesday though. Also, don't necessarily expect the post mortem to be specific enough for you to use much without at least extrapolating, so it may not give you much without working with your GM.