I wasn't considering the growth over time of Power Attack. Now I see where you're saying it's not such a huge deal for the Kineticist to interact with this, makes a lot more sense.
I wonder what you can do with a Conductive Scythe though. I'm assuming that because you can't choose to expend multiple uses of the ability, since it isn't a limited use power, that conductive doesn't work. If it did, putting a x4 crit on this would be fun.
Conductive: "A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of her lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal both greatsword damage and damage from one use of lay on hands. This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged)." (emphasis mine)
So, you can use Conductive with your blast. However, it would not allow you to deal x4 damage. In fact, I'm not even sure if your attached power would get the benefit of a crit--that would allow an item to step on the toes of the Magus, wouldn't it? Even if it did crit, though, it would crit separately, not with the weapon's crit. The Magus can use a weapon's threat range for a rider spell, but not even they can use the weapon's crit multiplier.
There are disadvantages to it, but I'm thinking it has some potential to work. Thoughts?
I was thinking about this as well, but with firearms in mind. I think your observations about the strengths and weaknesses of the conductive archery route are sound. Saving on wild talents is an especially valuable perk of going this route. I dread, however, what the implications are behind this and similar lines of reasoning.
I just don't think resorting to magic item properties addresses the weaknesses of the class itself. With the kineticist still in development, we should endeavor to offer solutions to improve the kineticist and bring its damage in line with other ranged combatants, not brace for the worst case scenario where conductive weapons become an essential part of a ranged kineticist build.
I hope that we haven't yet come to the point where focusing on iterative melee and conductive archery builds is the only way we can make the kineticist viable.
Conductive does have some potential though. I'm thinking in particular of an archery build. It has some nice benefits:
-Your damage is noticeably amplified on full attacks.
Query. How does conductive amplify your damage on full attacks? While you can channel every round because of your unlimited use ability, you're still explicitly limited to activating the ability to deal damage once per round. Last line of the ability.
A bunch of regular arrows from full attacking with the addition that one of them carries the damage from your kinetic blast.
If telekinetics get the ability to use weapon properties on their telekinetic blast, I suspect this will become a thing: Vital Stirke + Empowered TK Blast using a +1 Conductive Arrow.
[Edit] I wonder, if you use a bunch of Conductive arrows in a bow attack, can you activate Conductive for each arrow?
It would be expensive to maintain, but, when you have to kill every mother****er in the room...
Conductive does have some potential though. I'm thinking in particular of an archery build. It has some nice benefits:
-Your damage is noticeably amplified on full attacks.
Query. How does conductive amplify your damage on full attacks? While you can channel every round because of your unlimited use ability, you're still explicitly limited to activating the ability to deal damage once per round. Last line of the ability.
Arrow*6+Blast*1 > Blast*1.
If telekinetics get the ability to use weapon properties on their telekinetic blast, I suspect this will become a thing: Vital Stirke + Empowered TK Blast using a +1 Conductive Arrow.
[Edit] I wonder, if you use a bunch of Conductive arrows in a bow attack, can you activate Conductive for each arrow?
It would be expensive to maintain, but, when you have to kill every mother****er in the room...
"This weapon special ability can only be used once per round"
Not just "A weapon with this ability can only be used once per round" or "You may activate a Conductive weapon once per round", but "This ABILITY may only be used once per round" =).
Probably one of the better examples of Paizo foreseeing potential loopholes you can find, now I think of it.
I am concerned about this conductive weapon thing. It worries me because people playing kineticist "correctly" need an increase in power, but allowing conductive is too strong, then. The really insidious part is that, while optimal archery or gunnery involves making lots of attacks via rapid shot, haste, and maybe manyshot for a bow, you only need to hit with a single attack out of your barrage to deliver the full power of your blast, so it actually increases your accuracy despite the hit penalties.
Now, it does come into play late--ranged combat has a heavy feat tax (pb shot, precise shot, rapid shot, deadly aim, clustered shots, and either rapid reload or manyshot)--and it relies on being able to acquire a conductive ranged weapon which is not a given, but if you start a game at, say 9th+, this could be a preferred strategy.
Kineticist can't afford to be nerfed (they need a buff as we all know), but conductive also can't be allowed to mix so easily, either. I fear the only fix for this is errata, which is ugly at best.
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You know, the Kineticist really brings to mind a story of an online Role Play someone shared with me once. The story, of Edgardo the Brawler.
Mark, if you have the time to read the link above, I suggest you do. There are some neat ideas in there, especially the whole 'no limit' thing.
Perhaps an archetype for the Kineticist that allows them to burn as much as they want in a round, with no limit, to really ramp up their damage. But, as a trade off, they're forced into a damage progression akin to the Kinetic Fist ability?
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F@$&ing Edgardo, man. I love that story and wish it was adapted into an anime or something.
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It doubles range, not area of effect, but works on any composite that includes air as an element (specifically air, lightning water doesn't count. Air lightning does. Air earth does.) Impale doesn't work with just any blast involving earth though... it works with Earth(simple) metal(earth/earth) and ice(simple). So even though it's not an AOE and therefor technically viable for Air's Reach, the two never overlap in acceptable blasts. So you'll never get a chance to use them on the same attack.Impale is a Form Infusion. So are Extended, Extreme, and Snaking. Also Blade and Whip and Fist as well. You can only have 1 Form Infusion on any given attack, so sadly the spike starts at the square in front of you and proceeds exactly and only 30 feet in a straight line from that point. This would be 6 Squares in a straight cardinal line, or 4 squares in a straight diagonal line, or somewhere in between if you go at an odd angle to catch someone in an awkward position. Some DM's will let you do that, some won't.next question---
impale says its all targets in a 30 foot line, does extended range effect that, what about snaking or extreme range? if i took em all would i only be able to impale 1 30 foot straight line, 30 foot snaking line or 480 foot snake line?Would it be 60 ft if you had Dual element Air (from expanded) adding Air's reach?
It doubles range.
Would it apply to Sandstorm (earth +Air composite blast)?
Why would Air's Reach not apply to Charged Water Blast? It includes Air as an Element. Air's Reach says it applies to blasts that include "Air", not includes "Air Blast".
(Still can't use Impale with it.)
Why would Air's Reach not apply to Charged Water Blast? It includes Air as an Element. Air's Reach says it applies to blasts that include "Air", not includes "Air Blast".
(Still can't use Impale with it.)
It specifies that it works with air blasts and things that include air. The electric blast is not an air blast and charged water contains electric, not air. Yes, I think it blows that these infusions and composites are limited based on individual blast types rather than elements, but that's the way it is now.
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Are you sure? Charged water blast lists air and water as its elements, that seems like it might be enough to qualify for Air's Reach. It could use clarification, of course.
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You know, the Kineticist really brings to mind a story of an online Role Play someone shared with me once. The story, of Edgardo the Brawler.
Mark, if you have the time to read the link above, I suggest you do. There are some neat ideas in there, especially the whole 'no limit' thing.
Perhaps an archetype for the Kineticist that allows them to burn as much as they want in a round, with no limit, to really ramp up their damage. But, as a trade off, they're forced into a damage progression akin to the Kinetic Fist ability?
That
WasAWESOME
I'm looking at the vital strike/sword or arrow build idea... vital strike as a standard attack. You can't full attack with it to my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I could vital strike my first attack and still do the rest of them wouldn't that feat be more commonly taken?
by this logic, it only adds 1 sword/arrow of damage to just vital striking to begin with. This makes you very MAD and adds a few feats for not a lot per turn. The big trade off becomes feats instead of talents, and possibly that Pyro gets a physical damage option. But since you can already use feats for talents (hopefully without restriction soon) it's really a Pyro only idea if I have this right.
Making a Vital Strike build with a Conductive weapon now. Can you use Form or Substance infusions on a blast used with a Conductive weapon, or are you limited to the basic blast?
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Making a Vital Strike build with a Conductive weapon now. Can you use Form or Substance infusions on a blast used with a Conductive weapon, or are you limited to the basic blast?I'm looking at the vital strike/sword or arrow build idea... vital strike as a standard attack. You can't full attack with it to my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I could vital strike my first attack and still do the rest of them wouldn't that feat be more commonly taken?
by this logic, it only adds 1 sword/arrow of damage to just vital striking to begin with. This makes you very MAD and adds a few feats for not a lot per turn. The big trade off becomes feats instead of talents, and possibly that Pyro gets a physical damage option. But since you can already use feats for talents (hopefully without restriction soon) it's really a Pyro only idea if I have this right.
With conductive, the kinetic blast will be extra damage added to the base weapons attack. It will not multiply.
I don't see anything stopping you from using infusions.
Why would you use vital strike with a conductive weapon? That kills the entire advantage if both vital strike (doubling your high blast damage = good; doubling your crappy d8 arrow then adding blast damage = why bother?) and conductive (not only won't the blast double, you're only doing a blast + one sucky hit instead of a blast and a full archery barrage).
Why would you use vital strike with a conductive weapon? That kills the entire advantage if both vital strike (doubling your high blast damage = good; doubling your crappy d8 arrow then adding blast damage = why bother?) and conductive (not only won't the blast double, you're only doing a blast + one sucky hit instead of a blast and a full archery barrage).
It is pretty okay if you are using a double barreled musket with a composite blast that normally targets AC.
Kind of also on that note: maybe we don't need kinetic blade if a weapon enchantment exists. I am not saying that this conductive weapon loophole is "good" but maybe there should be some kind of +1 weapon enhancement that lets you do something similar.
For instance: perhaps you could only use it to add a blast to a weapon once a round and even then you could only add unmodified basic blasts.
The twin blast meta ability could let you do it twice a round. Locking the ability behind an enchantment gives the GM a bit more control over this sort of martial-focused build (in that it is less onerous to control the flow and types of magic weapons than it is to remove a build whole-hog). I dunno.
Why would you use vital strike with a conductive weapon? That kills the entire advantage if both vital strike (doubling your high blast damage = good; doubling your crappy d8 arrow then adding blast damage = why bother?) and conductive (not only won't the blast double, you're only doing a blast + one sucky hit instead of a blast and a full archery barrage).It is pretty okay if you are using a double barreled musket with a composite blast that normally targets AC.
You can only use touch attacks with a conductive weapon, so, the only composites that work are blue flame and the junky force aether one.
Indeed, Kinetic Cover can be used as much as you want and the low HP (as well as the fact that it's a standard action to prop up) is the limiting factor. The Kineticist is effectively a martial that uses spell-like abilities instead of manufactured weapons, everything about the class is U N L I M I T E D.
The largest issue I could see arising in our game was over Kinetic Cover. It has no time limit or use limits. I wound up being restricted to 1 Cover as he based it on my Cha modifier. Was the Kinetic Cover ability meant to be used endlessly? Is the low HP of the cover itself meant to be their limiting factor? If I've missed a discussion on this already, please point me that way. Otherwise some clarification would be fantastic!
Kinetic Cover is limitless, but its tiny HP and the standard action limits its use.
If you never have time to set up the battlefield, then it's of very limited use (mostly blocking AoOs and charges, ending grapples, frustrating bad guys based around single big attacks), but since it takes a standard action to use, you will often be better off just blasting stuff.
However, if the bad guys come to you, if you have time to prepare the battlefield first? It's completely amazing and awesome. And I don't think that's overpowered or anything, it's a well needed bit of utility.
If a kineticist is more powerful by picking up a bow and focusing on archery, it is a massive flavour and design failure
I feel exactly the same way. The fact that one of the most optimal ways to play a wizard is to jack up your INT, prepare strategically, and then cast your awesome spells speaks to a successfully executed design (balance is another matter entirely).
When you play a wizard, you should be rewarded for doing what wizards do: cast spells. When you play a kineticist, you should be rewarded for using kinetic blasts, not conductive longbows and pepperboxes.
[/rant]
(Though I suspect/hope most people agree with me on this point, so perhaps I'm not ranting after all...)
I think it makes sense for the kineticist to do more damage than an archer fighter if all the stars align. By that I mean, if the enemy has no resistance to the energy and can't Dr away some of their composite blast, it should do enough to beat out the competition.
Nobody else is subject to as many layers of defense as the kineticist seems to be.
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Kinetic Cover as a Readied Action can prevent creatures with a single attack from doing damage, can prevent a charge, or even reduce the number of attacks from a full attack. Can be useful, but it is still only against one attack.
Why did you have to say this?
Now it'll just get nerfed so PFS doesn't b&$&# and moan like they did with Crane Wing.
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I am fully aware of the ready-to-stop-a-charge facet of Kinetic Cover and this was intentional in design. That is also why it is never going to become an immediate action like several people have suggested. You want to spend your standard to ready and auto-block a charge? You got it. But you're spending your standard.
Why would you use vital strike with a conductive weapon? That kills the entire advantage if both vital strike (doubling your high blast damage = good; doubling your crappy d8 arrow then adding blast damage = why bother?) and conductive (not only won't the blast double, you're only doing a blast + one sucky hit instead of a blast and a full archery barrage).
If Vital Strike does work with the kinetic blast when the final product hits, it probably won't multiply your full blast damage - if anything it will only affect the first 1d6 damage (similar to how bomb crits work).
While full attacks with a conductive weapon are probably going to yield higher damage, my experience with a similar build (archer alchemist) has me thinking it the vital strike / conductive build might be more reliable. In my party we don't have any buffs unless I'm handing them out, so I have to rely on my mutagen and (occasionally) an infusion to boost my hit chance. The character does have rapid shot, but without a reliable attack buff it usually lowers my damage output. The Kineticist is in a similar boat with the only reliable in-class buff being Feel the Burn, which only makes up for the 3/4 Bab and adds some damage. Also, the full-attack method will want more strength to take advantage of composite bows while a vital strike build doesn't mind having less strength, making it less MAD, and keeping your move action allows you to stay mobile.
Basically, if you have a reliable source of buffs, the full attacks are probably better. If you want more mobility, less reliance on buffs, and a more lenient point buy, the vital strike / conductive build can work.
That said, if you can use substance infusions with a conductive weapon, the Magnetic option makes an electric-based archer really accurate.
I feel like a lot of people are harshing on kinetic blade too much. It costs enough burn to use that ranged blasts can make up most of the difference.
The only slight concern is the synergy coming out of an all day huge elemental with double reach and high dexterity. Its also very cool that you can control a space twelve tiles across with combat reflexes and similar feats.
I am fully aware of the ready-to-stop-a-charge facet of Kinetic Cover and this was intentional in design. That is also why it is never going to become an immediate action like several people have suggested. You want to spend your standard to ready and auto-block a charge? You got it. But you're spending your standard.Only arcane casters are allowed to do that.
If they are within 5 feet of the charge's target and are lucky enough to have a GM who allows that spell in their game, sure, they can do that for a 4th level slot.
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Kinetic Cover as a Readied Action can prevent creatures with a single attack from doing damage, can prevent a charge, or even reduce the number of attacks from a full attack. Can be useful, but it is still only against one attack.Why did you have to say this?
Now it'll just get nerfed so PFS doesn't b$+&& and moan like they did with Crane Wing.
Eep.
Though on the plus side Mark Seifter said it was intended to be like that, so we are good to go!
Better this, than having a fallout afterwards like Pummeling Charge and Crane Wing.