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As I understand it, you have to actually become Medium to get the full benefits of elemental body II, Large to get the most out of elemental body III and Huge to get the full effect of elemental body IV. Assuming that's the case, I'm trying to figure out why my halfling blast-focused kineticist would ever go beyond elemental body I.
As I understand it, you have to actually become Medium to get the full benefits of elemental body II, Large to get the most out of elemental body III and Huge to get the full effect of elemental body IV. Assuming that's the case, I'm trying to figure out why my halfling blast-focused kineticist would ever go beyond elemental body I.
Massive Natural Armor bonuses, great stat buffs from every element but Earth, DR from Huge, darkvision, and perfect flight/earthgliding/fire resistance/swim speed + water breathing.
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Massive Natural Armor bonuses
Offset by size penalties to AC and possibly not being able to wear actual armor.
great stat buffs from every element but Earth
+6 Dex that is exactly negated by size penalties for attack purposes, +4 Str that I will never use.
DR from Huge
Granted.
darkvision, and perfect flight
You get with elemental body I.
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Technically, Elemental Body never mandates having to change your size.
This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Medium air elemental, Medium earth elemental, Medium fire elemental, or Medium water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental.
Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.
Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength and a +5 natural armor bonus.
Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.
Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Constitution and a +5 natural armor bonus.
It doesn't state I have to become a medium elemental, it just states what bonuses I get based off which elemental I become. Since it functions "as elemental body I" I can choose a small elemental and gain the stat bonus of elemental body II.
The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental. Note, it does not say the abilities you gain depend on the size of the elemental, only the choice of what energy type of elemental you become.
Alchemists vs. Kineticists
It's also worth noting that both classes can restore the hp of others, though an Alchamists requires two discoveries to do so if he doesn't want to use extracts (which take another discovery to share). It also doesn't hurt him or negatively impact him in anyway outside of a reduction in daily uses. When it comes to being a back-up or emergency healer, Alchemists do it better.
Final note, Alchemists don't have any arbitrary restrictions on their Extra Class Feature feat like the Kineticist does.
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I have one question about Feel the Burn. It says that you gain the bonus when you accept burn, not when you accept burn for feel the burn. So assuming level 12, is it a legal move to wake up, jump into Kinetic body for 1 burn and then later in the day as fights begin just use composite blasts until you are at 4 burn?
You would still receive the +4 to hit and damage correct? Receiving a lesser bonus until you are at 4 burn of course.
Massive Natural Armor bonusesOffset by size penalties to AC and possibly not being able to wear actual armor.
great stat buffs from every element but Earth+6 Dex that is exactly negated by size penalties for attack purposes, +4 Str that I will never use.
When you combine these, though, the Dex cancels the size issue on both offense and defense, so you end with a natural armor bonus not offset.
darkvision, and perfect flightYou get with elemental body I.
Fair enough. But I'm not sure what else an Aerokineticist would spend burn on, since their defense kind of sucks.
I have one question about Feel the Burn. It says that you gain the bonus when you accept burn, not when you accept burn for feel the burn. So assuming level 12, is it a legal move to wake up, jump into Kinetic body for 1 burn and then later in the day as fights begin just use composite blasts until you are at 4 burn?
You would still receive the +4 to hit and damage correct? Receiving a lesser bonus until you are at 4 burn of course.
Yes, Feel the Burn gives you a buff based on how much burn you have. You do not spend Burn directly on Feel the Burn, you just get a passive bonus for using Burn for other stuff (like Kinetic Form or defense buffs).
After finishing yesterday's playtest I feel like underoptimized damage is a little low but I could have been doing more if I did optimize. Hitting is okay so long as I'm using touch attacks. Four monsters were immune to my touch attacks so I had no choice but to go in with a secondary element that did weapon damage and did not hit well. Feel the burn helps but its too unavoidable for my tastes. I'm happily not using it until something immune to my element shows up then it becomes risky on two fronts, being less capable of hitting and being at a lower HP. Better group members could have shored up those but not doing anything isn't fun.
My current gripes are:
Too few wild talents within a single element (may be just an air thing) that do something other than shooting the blast better as opposed to making the blast itself better.
Blasting and flying around is about the only thing to do. Would be more acceptable to have more damage but I'd rather take skills, utility talents at low levels. At this point I feel like I'd much rather go Con/Dex with any build to be effective and when I say 'effective' I mean at hitting things. I'm not effective at anything other than hitting for damage and the damage is not good enough to justify that being my only thing to do. worse than the fighter in regard to out of combat anything. I'm also disappointed that this is so far 'The Blaster Caster' at the exclusion of anything else.
Talents at 7th and 15th level not being in the wild talent description is slightly confusing. As written I get a wild talent at first level and then never again. Would have rather had some bonus feats.
I'm still not fond of Feel the Burn. I want the bonus to attack but not all the time and generally not at the same time that I have to use something that would cause burn. I've been treating burn as something I don't want except in emergencies which is exactly when I've already taken hits and don't want to take more damage so something really has to be wrong if I burn myself. The burn itself isn't painful because I dont' burn for more than FtB so there's that but I still feel like it's an ability that isn't a boon but an adjustment for how high my Con Has to be.
Do I need to have air cushion to keep the fly talent or can I replace it?
Humm, Ok thank you Shiroi and mplindustries. I have been running some napkin math and it seems to me that a ranged non-touch Aero-Kinetisist, would be doing about the same damage as a warrior/rogue/Non-pummel style Monk at level 12.
The Kinetisist will have better defenses AC/Saves while having about 93 HP.
This damage seems low but the accuracy I am seeing is about 90-95%. If as I read earlier in the thread there is a plan to adjust Aether and buff damage in some way it seems to be ok.
I will run some numbers for Melee Kinetists, as I just finished this thread I have just started my math.
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When you combine these, though, the Dex cancels the size issue on both offense and defense, so you end with a natural armor bonus not offset.Massive Natural Armor bonusesOffset by size penalties to AC and possibly not being able to wear actual armor.
great stat buffs from every element but Earth+6 Dex that is exactly negated by size penalties for attack purposes, +4 Str that I will never use.
But unless you also have Huge armor sitting around, you're losing whatever your normal armor is - at level 16, that's likely to be at least 7 or 8 points of AC.
Better group members could have shored up those but not doing anything isn't fun.
I think this is a good observation, honestly. I have always felt drawn to Water, with Earth secondarily when it comes to the four elements/humors/whatever, so I really haven't looked much at Fire or Air, and, Aether kind of feels like a different class entirely at this point.
Air really has very little going for it. You get to fly early, which is awesome, but the only other utility effect you get is Windsight, which is...eh.
But if I were Water and the bad guy had an unusually high AC and cold resist, I actually could still help. Kinetic Cover basically cancels one attack per round if used well. Water Manipulator and Move Earth have huge amounts of utility fun or combats. Even tremorsense (from either element) is more broadly useful than Windsense. It's also a terrible defense. It's better than Pyro, but, honestly, Pyro's defense is so bad, it might as well not have one. Personally, I think Water is the clear best defense, with Aether next (I trade some regular HP for half as many Regenerating HP? And the HP I trade away actually aren't gone, so I won't die if I drop below them, I'll just fall unconscious? HELL YES!).
I think Earth is not as good as people are treating it--you have to get hit your level number of times per day before the trade was good. And it can be bypassed! It's not even X/-! Though, it's still certainly better than Fire, and probably better than Air.
Air makes the best long range blaster, but it's the least versatile since it does everything else poorly.
Yeah, staying with Air is probably a huge weakness during this playtest. I wanted to make a baddass lightning lord but instead got a 'pew-pew' guy whose only really claim to cool is flying around like Superman. I should probably make some more judgements after using the other elements because its possible that Air is just a the bad element.
When you combine these, though, the Dex cancels the size issue on both offense and defense, so you end with a natural armor bonus not offset.Massive Natural Armor bonusesOffset by size penalties to AC and possibly not being able to wear actual armor.
great stat buffs from every element but Earth+6 Dex that is exactly negated by size penalties for attack purposes, +4 Str that I will never use.But unless you also have Huge armor sitting around, you're losing whatever your normal armor is - at level 16, that's likely to be at least 7 or 8 points of AC.
Hmm. I hadn't really considered that. I guess Bracers of Armor it is once you hit 16th (or Wild Armor). Since I don't need a weapon, I can easily afford the greater expense.
Edit: And I know that the bracers won't work when polymorphed either, since it blocks armor bonuses, not specifically armor, but bracers, at least, will resize to the wearer where armor and weapons will not (sometimes I miss 2e).
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Better group members could have shored up those but not doing anything isn't fun.I think this is a good observation, honestly. I have always felt drawn to Water, with Earth secondarily when it comes to the four elements/humors/whatever, so I really haven't looked much at Fire or Air, and, Aether kind of feels like a different class entirely at this point.
Air really has very little going for it. You get to fly early, which is awesome, but the only other utility effect you get is Windsight, which is...eh.
But if I were Water and the bad guy had an unusually high AC and cold resist, I actually could still help. Kinetic Cover basically cancels one attack per round if used well. Water Manipulator and Move Earth have huge amounts of utility fun or combats. Even tremorsense (from either element) is more broadly useful than Windsense. It's also a terrible defense. It's better than Pyro, but, honestly, Pyro's defense is so bad, it might as well not have one. Personally, I think Water is the clear best defense, with Aether next (I trade some regular HP for half as many Regenerating HP? And the HP I trade away actually aren't gone, so I won't die if I drop below them, I'll just fall unconscious? HELL YES!).
I think Earth is not as good as people are treating it--you have to get hit your level number of times per day before the trade was good. And it can be bypassed! It's not even X/-! Though, it's still certainly better than Fire, and probably better than Air.
Air makes the best long range blaster, but it's the least versatile since it does everything else poorly.
Keep in mind with Aether, Aether has an optimal trade ratio of 2 burn on it's defense. When you activate Force Ward, you immediately gain your level in HP as a regenerating force field. If you accept 1 burn, you get half your level, but take your level in damage (net gain of half your level in HP from the initial Force Ward and the point of burn). If you take another point of burn towards the Force Ward, your Force Ward now has an HP total = to 2x your level, but you also have 2x your level in damage from Burn.
As an example, if you were 10th level, you've taken 20 hp in non-lethal damage from burn, but you gained a 20 hp shield with that regenerates over time, so it's an even trade at that point. Any further burn spent toward your Force Ward becomes less and less favorable though.
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Fair enough. But I'm not sure what else an Aerokineticist would spend burn on, since their defense kind of sucks.I dunno, I'd say that it's pretty situationally useful. It's a 5% miss chance, the same as raising your AC by 1 point, vs certain attacks. Now, yes, that's not as good as Water's straight +1 AC, which also offers a 5% miss chance against a wider variety of attacks, but the Miss Chance stacks after AC is applied, so it's actually a pretty decent jump in defense against those attacks. More importantly, as much as it feels like miss chance vs ranged attacks is a corner case, the fact that *most* aero's will be 40'+ above the battlefield at all times means it's almost always going to apply to non-spell attacks made against them, outside of a tunnel system or cramped room.
My aerokineticist took expanded defense and uses shroud of water instead of purchasing armor. With DEX as a primary stat, eventually you are going to hit the dex cap even with mithral armor.
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But unless you also have Huge armor sitting around, you're losing whatever your normal armor is - at level 16, that's likely to be at least 7 or 8 points of AC.
Hmm. I hadn't really considered that. I guess Bracers of Armor it is once you hit 16th (or Wild Armor). Since I don't need a weapon, I can easily afford the greater expense.
Edit: And I know that the bracers won't work when polymorphed either, since it blocks armor bonuses, not specifically armor, but bracers, at least, will resize to the wearer where armor and weapons will not (sometimes I miss 2e).
Shroud of Water for AC bonus, not shield bonus.
But yes, I would prefer to avoid huge size. It has too many disadvantages.
Keep in mind with Aether, Aether has an optimal trade ratio of 2 burn on it's defense. When you activate Force Ward, you immediately gain your level in HP as a regenerating force field. If you accept 1 burn, you get half your level, but take your level in damage (net gain of half your level in HP from the initial Force Ward and the point of burn). If you take another point of burn towards the Force Ward, your Force Ward now has an HP total = to 2x your level, but you also have 2x your level in damage from Burn.
As an example, if you were 10th level, you've taken 20 hp in non-lethal damage from burn, but you gained a 20 hp shield with that regenerates over time, so it's an even trade at that point. Any further burn spent toward your Force Ward becomes less and less favorable though.
See, I feel like it's a steal at 2 Burn or less, but it's still favorable afterward.
If I trade my level in HP for 1/2 my level in regenerating HP, I only need to get hit twice across two encounters before it's worth it.
Example:
I normally have 100 HP at level 10 (just a hypothetical, not based on any math!). Each Burn I spend costs me 10 effective HP, but gives me 5 THP that regenerates.
If I get hit in the first encounter of the day, my THP regenerates, and then I get hit again in the second encounter, my investment paid off, since I have the same net HP for the day. If I get hit in a third encounter during the day after they regenerate, I've gained a net benefit.
So, basically, as long as you get hit in two different encounters, Force Ward is a good deal.
Technically, Elemental Body never mandates having to change your size.
This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Medium air elemental, Medium earth elemental, Medium fire elemental, or Medium water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental.
Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.
Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength and a +5 natural armor bonus.
Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.
Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Constitution and a +5 natural armor bonus.It doesn't state I have to become a medium elemental, it just states what bonuses I get based off which elemental I become. Since it functions "as elemental body I" I can choose a small elemental and gain the stat bonus of elemental body II.
The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental. Note, it does not say the abilities you gain depend on the size of the elemental, only the choice of what energy type of elemental you become.
Could we get an official dev response on if this is a proper reading? If Kinetic Form doesn't force a size change then it's much more favorable from an RP and tactical standpoint as currently written.
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Keep in mind with Aether, Aether has an optimal trade ratio of 2 burn on it's defense. When you activate Force Ward, you immediately gain your level in HP as a regenerating force field. If you accept 1 burn, you get half your level, but take your level in damage (net gain of half your level in HP from the initial Force Ward and the point of burn). If you take another point of burn towards the Force Ward, your Force Ward now has an HP total = to 2x your level, but you also have 2x your level in damage from Burn.
As an example, if you were 10th level, you've taken 20 hp in non-lethal damage from burn, but you gained a 20 hp shield with that regenerates over time, so it's an even trade at that point. Any further burn spent toward your Force Ward becomes less and less favorable though.
See, I feel like it's a steal at 2 Burn or less, but it's still favorable afterward.
If I trade my level in HP for 1/2 my level in regenerating HP, I only need to get hit twice across two encounters before it's worth it.
Example:
I normally have 100 HP at level 10 (just a hypothetical, not based on any math!). Each Burn I spend costs me 10 effective HP, but gives me 5 THP that regenerates.
If I get hit in the first encounter of the day, my THP regenerates, and then I get hit again in the second encounter, my investment paid off, since I have the same net HP for the day. If I get hit in a third encounter during the day after they regenerate, I've gained a net benefit.
So, basically, as long as you get hit in two different encounters, Force Ward is a good deal.
The issue being the rate at which it regenerates. If, at 10th level, you spend 2 burn so your shield has 20 THP, it takes 20 minutes to regenerate to full. By 10th level, most things should be hitting for more than 20 points of damage in a hit, so it's likely a hit will take the entire shield out in one blow.
Interesting thought though, what if I could spend burn to increase the regeneration rate? Spend 1 burn to increase to 1 point a round, and then spend another burn to increase it to 1 point per 5 levels a round? At 10th level, the Aether could spend 2 points for 20 HP, and another 2 to increase regen to 2 points a round, which maxes out FtB and gives him a pretty decent defense on top of it.
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Could we get an official dev response on if this is a proper reading? If Kinetic Form doesn't force a size change then it's much more favorable from an RP and tactical standpoint as currently written.Technically, Elemental Body never mandates having to change your size.
This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Medium air elemental, Medium earth elemental, Medium fire elemental, or Medium water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental.
Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.
Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength and a +5 natural armor bonus.
Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.
Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Constitution and a +5 natural armor bonus.It doesn't state I have to become a medium elemental, it just states what bonuses I get based off which elemental I become. Since it functions "as elemental body I" I can choose a small elemental and gain the stat bonus of elemental body II.
The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental. Note, it does not say the abilities you gain depend on the size of the elemental, only the choice of what energy type of elemental you become.
Does a creature using Elemental Body count as having hands?
While most people agree yes, a significant number still argue no.
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The issue being the rate at which it regenerates. If, at 10th level, you spend 2 burn so your shield has 20 THP, it takes 20 minutes to regenerate to full. By 10th level, most things should be hitting for more than 20 points of damage in a hit, so it's likely a hit will take the entire shield out in one blow.
An interesting side effect of playing a character with Force Ward; I'm willing to bet the wizards Shield spells are going to start lasting more than one encounter.
Certainly Force Ward could have a more interesting effect in combat it regenerated every round.
I noticed this: "If an attack fails to deal more damage than the remaining hit points in your force ward, it still reduces those temporary hit points but otherwise counts as a miss for the purpose of abilities that trigger on a hit or a miss."
How this interacts with touch attacks? Normal touch attacks deal no actual damage (from the attack itself). This would prevent delivery of spells and other hostile touch effects?
The issue being the rate at which it regenerates. If, at 10th level, you spend 2 burn so your shield has 20 THP, it takes 20 minutes to regenerate to full. By 10th level, most things should be hitting for more than 20 points of damage in a hit, so it's likely a hit will take the entire shield out in one blow.
Yeah, but that doesn't actually matter. Because as long as 20 minutes pass before the next fight, and I get hit in that second fight, I have the same number of effective HP for the day. If I have another 20 minutes before the third encounter and I get hit again, I have 50% more daily HP than my investment cost.
Oh, how rapidly do your encounters usually come?
Does a creature using Elemental Body count as having hands?While most people agree yes, a significant number still argue no.
The bestiary's make it rather obvious that elementals can look like whatever so that you can have fire dolphins on the sun and hawks made of smoke and giants made of rock. With the fire elemental text implying that they can even change what their form appears to be.
Also, both Earth Elemental and Magma Elemental Art has hands.
If you flavour your elemental form to have hands, like being a frog creature made of swamp water or an elf made of ice, you have hands.
Maybe I'm just looking at it the wrong way, but I think you're overvaluing the "cool stuff" the Kineticist gets for Burn.
Because I can already get a caster to do much of it for me, without losing HP.
Frex: My Barbarian in Rise of the Runelords is a Huge Earth Elemental for the foreseeable future.
Because Polymorph Any Object is a spell.