|
In a 3-7 mod I'm GMing where the players with PCs are all 3rd and 4th level, the pregens must be level 4, period. Anyone telling me I am forced to allow 7th level pregens, I walk.Luckily, that mathematically won't be the case.
The highest APL a party could get would be three 4's and a 7, which is 4.75 meaning they play at 3-4, full stop. 7 is not "level-appropriate" for sub tier 3-4 when there is a level 4 version available. "Level-appropriate" is not defined anywhere, so you, as the GM, can determine what "level-appropriate" means. It's unambiguously your call.
...
I'm thinking that a table of 3x4th levels, 2x5th levels, and a 7th level pregen comes out to an APL of 4.8, which rounds to 5, and with 6 players that adjust to subtier 6-7 with the 4 player adjustment. This situation means the 7th level pregen has made the difference in the subtier.
|
I'm thinking that a table of 3x4th levels, 2x5th levels, and a 7th level pregen comes out to an APL of 4.8, which rounds to 5, and with 6 players that adjust to subtier 6-7 with the 4 player adjustment. This situation means the 7th level pregen has made the difference in the subtier.
Which will probably give a better night for everyone involved because the early scenarios tend to be pretty easy.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Reading this discussion makes me laugh because my first thought is "Are any players really this cheesy?" and then I remember that I personally know players that have done this kind of thing in the past. It just sucks that we have to be saddled with awkward and overly punishing campaign rules because of bad behavior from a few.
|
|
Reading this discussion makes me laugh because my first thought is "Are any players really this cheesy?"
Hello! And welcome to the forums! :)
and then I remember that I personally know players that have done this kind of thing in the past. It just sucks that we have to be saddled with awkward and overly punishing campaign rules because of bad behavior from a few.
I've never done it with a pregen, but its almost standard operating procedure to try to go up if the party is anywhere near the midline simply because going down results in stomping the scenario flat.
|
|
Eh, I don’t consider opting for a pregen to play up bad behavior but I have a friend that I’ve played with for years try to switch out his character for pregens when the DM mentions a given scenario is dangerous. Fortunately, a healthy amount of public shaming works wonders. Maybe that's what the campaign needs - guidelines for public shaming!
|
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.
There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.
You got a precedent that says the pre-gen has to be in sub-tier? And when does your precedent say to calculate sub-tier, before or after adding in the pre-gen?
|
|
Go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all the pregens come in 1st level, 4th level, and 7th level versions? Soooooooo....
Yes, he or she can play whichever pre-gen character he or she chooses to play-- but, it will be the level-appropriate version... to me at least, that means playing the pre-gen of choice at the level that is closest to the average level of the rest of the party (and within the level limits of the scenario, for some of those corner cases...). Meaning, you can play any of the pregen characters: Kyra, or Harsk (if you wish), or Lirandys, or any of the others out there (other than any specific restrictions stated in the PFS Guide to Organized Play).... no restriction there, but-- although the scenario overall may be 3-7, if the entire rest of the party is 3rd and 4th level characters, you get to play the 4th level version of your pre-gen of choice, NOT the 7th level version. It's still the same character-- just at a different power level.
|
|
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.
There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.
The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.
There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.
I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.
|
|
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.
There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.
The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.
There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.
I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.
1. Precedent, not precedence.
2. The GM, like any other player, always has the option of not participating. The campaign rules are irrelevant.|
Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
|
I can't believe any GM would cancel a table because someone used a level 7 toon instead of a level 4 toon. It's just not that important.
I don't know if it ever would happen. If it did, it is likely because multiple people refused to budge.
Really, peer pressure should keep this from coming up. If the whole table wanted to play up, then the GM should allow it. If even one player was uncomfortable with it, the GM should heavily encourage the pregen to not play up. If they are trying to play out of sub-tier, I would suggest they not. If they insisted, I would inquire with the event coordinator to "make sure this was alright".
The player is unlikely to want the event coordinator to be asked about this. That would just about ensure that the local VC hears about it.
Just because you are within the letter of the law doesn't make it right.
|
|
And I read the Guide's statement of "level-appropriate" pre-gen to be closest to the sub-tier being played. If you have an option that's in sub-tier and an option that's not, you play the option in sub-tier, as from my stance, that is what is appropriate.
If you judge it differently, then at tables you run, you do as you think the rule reads. At tables I judge, I'll run it with the requirements I read from the Guide's text.
|
|
While I hate to come out on the side of those who would play a level 7 in a 3-4 game (or a level 4 in a 1-2 game), I don't see anything prohibiting this behavior. Nothing says you have to play a pregen that is closest in level to the average of the rest of the party.
As an aside, the APL to determine sub tier is based on the entire party's APL, not the party minus the pregen and then decide what level pregen to use.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.
There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.
The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.
There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.
I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.
I agree with your logic, but disagree with the conclusion.
Playing a character grossly out of power with the party destroys the experience.
Ex. I played a 1-7 scenario where the APL was 2 until a 7th lvl character arrived and bumped it up to the next tier. None of the other characters could enter melee and expect to live more than a round at best. We all played 2nd fiddle to the 7th level character who walked us through the scenario.
Although the GM did a fine job, it was a lackluster experience for the rest of us. Note: this did not involve a pre-gen but the effects are the same...except with a pre-gen its avoidable.
This is a game, and it should be fun. I applaud any GM who cares enough to make it so for the players. Pre-gens should be the same level as the party.
|
|
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.
There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.
The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.
There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.
I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.
I agree with your logic, but disagree with the conclusion.
Playing a character grossly out of power with the party destroys the experience.
Ex. I played a 1-7 scenario where the APL was 2 until a 7th lvl character arrived and bumped it up to the next tier. None of the other characters could enter melee and expect to live more than a round at best. We all played 2nd fiddle to the 7th level character who walked us through the scenario.
Although the GM did a fine job, it was a lackluster experience for the rest of us. Note: this did not involve a pre-gen but the effects are the same...except with a pre-gen its avoidable.
This is a game, and it should be fun. I applaud any GM who cares enough to make it so for the players. Pre-gens should be the same level as the...
Usually I've seen parties squeezing in level 7 Kyra over level 4 Kyra. No one's experience was ruined. There are a thousand other ways that one can end up playing second fiddle. And level 2 PCs should be able to do fine in an early season tier 3-4 scenario. The level 7 was just getting them extra $$ in that case.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Usually I've seen parties squeezing in level 7 Kyra over level 4 Kyra. No one's experience was ruined. There are a thousand other ways that one can end up playing second fiddle. And level 2 PCs should be able to do fine in an early season tier 3-4 scenario. The level 7 was just getting them extra $$ in that case.Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.
There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.
The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.
There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.
I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.
I agree with your logic, but disagree with the conclusion.
Playing a character grossly out of power with the party destroys the experience.
Ex. I played a 1-7 scenario where the APL was 2 until a 7th lvl character arrived and bumped it up to the next tier. None of the other characters could enter melee and expect to live more than a round at best. to the 7th level character who walked us through the scenario.
Although the GM did a fine job, it was a lackluster experience for the rest of us. Note: this did not involve a pre-gen but the effects are the same...except with a pre-gen its avoidable.
This is a game, and it should be fun. I applaud any GM who cares enough to make it so for the players. Pre-gens should
The level 7 was doing more than getting them extra $$...the level 7 stomped the scenario while the rest of the table watched and went along for the ride.
Doing something like this is one of the things that can drive away starting players by overriding the cooperative play environment.
|
|
I find it pretty humorous that the main complaints about pregens still seem to be:
1. The pregens are underpowered and pose an undue risk on those poor PCs they adventure with..
AND
2. Someone might play a pregen and stomp the adventure, hurting the feelings of those poor PCs they adventure with.
Neither of these arguments hold water in light of each other.
Moreover, each argument can be applied to PCs.
1. Harsk 7 is more powerful than one of my 8th-level characters (who happens to also be one of my favorite characters). I would be pretty upset if someone told me I couldn't bring my 8th-level character to the table because it poses too much risk to the rest of the table.
2. Anyone can build a highly-optimized 6th-level character who is much more powerful than Amiri 7 and ruin the fun of three players with 4th-level characters in a Tier 3-7. The problem isn't Amiri; the problem is a player who is not playing nice with the other players at the table.
Doing something like this is one of the things that can drive away starting players by overriding the cooperative play environment.
Reading threads like this is enough to drive players from PFS. Or keep them from trying it out. It sure did it for me. Not this thread but others on the boards here.
|
|
I find it pretty humorous that the main complaints about pregens still seem to be:
1. The pregens are underpowered and pose an undue risk on those poor PCs they adventure with..
AND
2. Someone might play a pregen and stomp the adventure, hurting the feelings of those poor PCs they adventure with.
Neither of these arguments hold water in light of each other.
Moreover, each argument can be applied to PCs.
1. Harsk 7 is more powerful than one of my 8th-level characters (who happens to also be one of my favorite characters). I would be pretty upset if someone told me I couldn't bring my 8th-level character to the table because it poses too much risk to the rest of the table.
2. Anyone can build a highly-optimized 6th-level character who is much more powerful than Amiri 7 and ruin the fun of three players with 4th-level characters in a Tier 3-7. The problem isn't Amiri; the problem is a player who is not playing nice with the other players at the table.
But the inverse argument is equally true. If the relative power doesn't matter, then playing the lower level pre-gen shouldn't be an issue.
The true measure is the scenario, which is to challenge the party and allow the opportunity for each character to shine, but a GM can't adjust the scenario and not all scenarios are built for 4 party adjustment playing up.
Since RAW is interpreted differently it falls within RAI. However, I see different camps entrenched here. I don't mean to mis-characterize anyone here, but I've seen some of the best GMs and worst under my limited time in PFS. Some want to share an experience, and others want to be out of the shop by 9PM so they can apply a chronicle sheet to a character.
Allowing a character to skew the APL either for $$ or expeditiousness may well fall under the latter group. I humbly submit the difference between legal and ethical behavior. Rule as you wish, but I play and GM for the experience and challenge.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Not entirely hypothetical, with players gathered around a local gamestore table with 4th and 5th-level characters. A friend walks in:
"I have a 5th level character that I would like to play in this adventure. As it turns out, I didn't bring the legal copies of the resources necessary to play him. I'd like to play a pre-gen and credit the adventure to my character. Can I play a 4th-level pre-gen and give credit to the PC?"
"No; you can only give credit to a PC of lower level."
"Can I play a 7th-level version of the pre-gen?"
--- Your answer?
|
|
--- Your answer?
Yes. But you should still only give credit to a PC of lower level than the tier of the scenario.
Here is what the guide says:
You may not apply a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the
level of the pregenerated character or higher, as you should have used this character for the scenario instead.
I believe the intent is to encourage players to play their own characters instead of pregens when possible. That includes encouraging us to remember to bring our own characters and the necessary resources.*
It is a fair compromise to allow players to play pregens (whatever pregen they want at whatever level they want, provided the level is within the Tier of the scenario) whenever they want as long as they apply credit to a character who could not have played that scenario at the time credit is issued.
|
|
I find it pretty humorous that the main complaints about pregens still seem to be:
1. The pregens are underpowered and pose an undue risk on those poor PCs they adventure with..
AND
2. Someone might play a pregen and stomp the adventure, hurting the feelings of those poor PCs they adventure with.
Even a horribly underpowered level 7 character can do some serious damage to a level 3 dungeon. Even harsk (if he drops the xbow).
1. Harsk 7 is more powerful than one of my 8th-level characters (who happens to also be one of my favorite characters). I would be pretty upset if someone told me I couldn't bring my 8th-level character to the table because it poses too much risk to the rest of the table.
.... how?
2. Anyone can build a highly-optimized 6th-level character who is much more powerful than Amiri 7 and ruin the fun of three players with 4th-level characters in a Tier 3-7. The problem isn't Amiri; the problem is a player who is not playing nice with the other players at the table.
The level 6 character at least earned/played their way there.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I find it pretty humorous that the main complaints about pregens still seem to be:
1. The pregens are underpowered and pose an undue risk on those poor PCs they adventure with..
AND
2. Someone might play a pregen and stomp the adventure, hurting the feelings of those poor PCs they adventure with.
Neither of these arguments hold water in light of each other.
They do when they apply to separate situations.
A 7th level pregen is, on average, less powerful than a 7th level PC.
A 7th level pregen is, on average, more powerful than subtier 3-4 encounters.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Saint, let me give you a real-life, not-making-this-up example.
I've met a pair of GMs who've advanced the following argument: "the Pathfinder Society uses smugglers to get goods into Absalom. Missions often involve breaking laws to get into a site or get out stealing artifacts. It is, essentially, a criminal enterprise, wrapped in lofty rhetoric. Paladins cannot function as pawns of that organization. If I have a paladin sit at my table, I'll ask him if he accepts the mission briefing. If he does, he falls." They are otherwise okay GMs.
So, let's say your only character in-tier is a paladin. Are you sure you'd want to bring him to that table, to argue for an hour? Wouldn't you rather play a pre-gen?
Dude. There are canon examples of Pathfinder paladins, Ollysta Zadrian foremost among them. They can't do that. Do they also do this to clerics, warpriests, etc of lawful good/paladin-sponsoring deities? A cleric of Iomedae isn't held to much in the way of a different standard.
Edit: Actually I'm hitting FAQ on this, because it's a major problem. Is the above-described behavior actually within a GM's authority?
Then those GMs would be welcomed to my banned list. There's no way I'd want to play with someone pulling that kind of GM power-trip dick move. PFS is supposed to be fun, not incessant mental gymnastics pimped around by abusive fiat pedants.Nicely said, Sebastian.
Saint, let me give you a real-life, not-making-this-up example.
I've met a pair of GMs who've advanced the following argument: "the Pathfinder Society uses smugglers to get goods into Absalom. Missions often involve breaking laws to get into a site or get out stealing artifacts. It is, essentially, a criminal enterprise, wrapped in lofty rhetoric. Paladins cannot function as pawns of that organization. If I have a paladin sit at my table, I'll ask him if he accepts the mission briefing. If he does, he falls." They are otherwise okay GMs.
Hear, hear!
|
|
Usually I've seen parties squeezing in level 7 Kyra over level 4 Kyra...
And there it is again-- there is a 4th level version of Kyra, and a 7th level version. I don't feel that it's restricting the player's legitimate choice of pregen at all to tell the player that he/she will be playing the 4th level version with a 4th level party. It's STILL Kyra, if that is the pregenerated character he or she wants to play. The same considerations apply to all of the pregens.
I do not agree with the premise that the player's choice of pregen includes whatever level version he or she can possibly shoe-horn into the scenario's overall limits-- as opposed to, take the PFS-legal version of his/her pregen of choice that most closely matches the party's level.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
| 9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Against my habits, I would request some guidance from John or Mike on this topic. If a player comes to a Tier 1-5 adventure, and everybody else has a 2nd-level PC, is it all right for the GM to require a player play the Level 1 version of a pre-gen, when he'd rather play the 4th-level version?
Or whatever other particulars you like. Is it up to the GM to allow or disallow a tier-legal pre-gen that's out of subtier?
|
|
Usually I've seen parties squeezing in level 7 Kyra over level 4 Kyra...And there it is again-- there is a 4th level version of Kyra, and a 7th level version. I don't feel that it's restricting the player's legitimate choice of pregen at all to tell the player that he/she will be playing the 4th level version with a 4th level party. It's STILL Kyra, if that is the pregenerated character he or she wants to play. The same considerations apply to all of the pregens.
I do not agree with the premise that the player's choice of pregen includes whatever level version he or she can possibly shoe-horn into the scenario's overall limits-- as opposed to, take the PFS-legal version of his/her pregen of choice that most closely matches the party's level.
I still don't see why the bar suddenly changes for a pregen vs a PC. I still don't see why, as the GM, you would even care. Remember that subtier is not determined normally until AFTER PCs have been chosen. Yes, this can be manipulated, which is fine, but the order of operations is still basically that order.
|
|
There is a a player I know that regualrly wants to play the highest level he can when the rest of the party is in the low teir(he also throw visible tantrums when he can not play an out of teir character for smaller teirs like modules and level 1-2 stuff). He makes a point to destroyt the encounters, forcing combats the party does nto want knowing his character 3 or 4 levels high will be fine. I will not let him if I dm, and if he does that at a table I aplying at I get up and leave.
If he does not have his own character to do this he now uses the warpreist to do it. So that is my only concern when I see people doing these things.
|
|
what about the reverse of this scenario? someone sitting down and pulling a 1st level Iconic when (at least some of) the other players are 4th level?
In the extreme, this could be a mix of:
three 4th level PCs, and a 1st level Iconic, and the Iconic pulls the table back to sub-tier 1-2 (13/4=3.25 rounds to 3, 4 players plays down)...
Can you (as the Judge) force a player to play a higher level Iconic?
I would let the playters vote on what to do. All it takes is two of the level 4s to leave the table and you no longer have a game.
Forcing them to play a game they do not want is not right either. At this point you need to draw the line somewhere.
If I were at a table with all 4s wanting to play up and someone insists playing thier level 1. that would force us down I would either play a lower level too, or leave the table.
|
|
what about the reverse of this scenario? someone sitting down and pulling a 1st level Iconic when (at least some of) the other players are 4th level?
In the extreme, this could be a mix of:
three 4th level PCs, and a 1st level Iconic, and the Iconic pulls the table back to sub-tier 1-2 (13/4=3.25 rounds to 3, 4 players plays down)...
Can you (as the Judge) force a player to play a higher level Iconic?
You bet. Determine what average level of the party is and then find the most "level-appropriate" pregen to fill the spot if you want to play.
It seems the most issues are what is an appropriate level. I see it as based on that particular table, others it appears are seeing it as only limited by the scenario. If you do it based on the table, however, you're much less likely to sway the table away from the majority of players playing their own PC.
EDIT: Added quote since I was ninjad a couple times =p.
Agree with Sniggy 100%
If the party are playing level 4s and 5s you are playing the level 4 pregen. Whether you wanted to play level 1 or level 7, I'm going to be insisting you play at the level closest to the others.
Everybody is equal and all that, but those who are playing their actual characters are MORE equal than those just playing a pregen ;)
So whether this means you dont get to play a higher level pregen and can't beat the scenario one handed, or whether it means you can't play a level 1 pregen and be of little to no use, either way I would have you play closest to the avg level.
Authority can be a bit of a grey area, seing as the GM has the authority to back out of a game (it's bad-form, but the fact that they can does tend to lend them a little bit of extra authority in decision making).
And there is also the RAW vs RAI, I personally believe pregens are available as an option for those who CAN'T play their own character, NOT as an alternative to them. As such you should just be happy to have that option, you should not be trying to play your pregen at a different level to the party.
Again all this is just my opinion, as you can see from my name I'm not some venture captain or anyone important, so its probably not worth much :D
|
|
", you should not be trying to play your pregen at a different level to the party."
Again, though, the second most common pregen I've seen people using like this is Ezren, to learn more about 3rd and 4th level arcane spells. They can't do that with a level 4 Ezren. They aren't taking over level 3-4 scenarios with level 7 Ezren. Because Ezren sucks.