On Using Iconics when a player has a legal PFS character of the appropriate tier


Pathfinder Society

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David Bowles wrote:

", you should not be trying to play your pregen at a different level to the party."

Again, though, the second most common pregen I've seen people using like this is Ezren, to learn more about 3rd and 4th level arcane spells. They can't do that with a level 4 Ezren.

I understand that but I would advise them to look for a higher level game if they wanted to play a higher level pre-gen. I'm not saying this is always an option and when I say "insist" what I actually mean is "insist if at all possible".

Also to be fair there is a certain degree of "learn by doing" that means players do kinda just have to bite the bullet and learn with their own characters.

Silver Crusade **

Most players don't take kindly to someone doing on the job learning with level 7 Ezren in a tier 8-9 or 7-8. That's the problem. They'd prefer to have the level 7 in a tier 3-4. Player preference, to me, trumps the way the GM thinks it should be in this case. The GM is getting their 1 XP 2 PP and table credit no matter what. The GM should have zero say in table composition as long as its legal.


David Bowles wrote:
Most players don't take kindly to someone doing on the job learning with level 7 Ezren in a tier 8-9 or 7-8. That's the problem. They'd prefer to have the level 7 in a tier 3-4. Player preference, to me, trumps the way the GM thinks it should be in this case. The GM is getting their 1 XP 2 PP and table credit no matter what. The GM should have zero say in table composition as long as its legal.

You really sound like you have been lucky enough to not have to GM a bad table. I know a lot of gamers who would be too "nice" to say to someone "we would really prefer you play down" and who would then have a bad game because of it.

I'm not saying the GM should have the preference, I'm saying that if the table needs a ruling or a "bad guy" that the GM is the one (IMO) who should step up and lay down the law. (in as nice a way as possible!)

Silver Crusade **

"You really sound like you have been lucky enough to not have to GM a bad table."

Oh, I have. But all those tables involved actual PCs coming in to show everyone else how it's done. I had no say over those.

Shadow Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

David Bowles wrote:

"You really sound like you have been lucky enough to not have to GM a bad table."

Oh, I have. But all those tables involved actual PCs coming in to show everyone else how it's done. I had no say over those.

Yes you do. I've asked players to not bring their 5th-level character into a subtier 1-2 game (or their 7th-level one into a subtier 3-4) when all the other players are in-subtier. I've made it clear that if they insist, I'm going to ask them to take a low-profile role, and not rush in and solo encounters before anybody else gets a chance to contribute. Fortunately most of our local gamers are fairly good team players, so they usually switch to a different character or play a (subtier-appropriate) pregen. Another option is for them to move to a high-subtier table, and for one of the players at that table to move to the lower table and play a more appropriate character.

Silver Crusade **

John Francis wrote:
David Bowles wrote:

"You really sound like you have been lucky enough to not have to GM a bad table."

Oh, I have. But all those tables involved actual PCs coming in to show everyone else how it's done. I had no say over those.

Yes you do. I've asked players to not bring their 5th-level character into a subtier 1-2 game (or their 7th-level one into a subtier 3-4) when all the other players are in-subtier. I've made it clear that if they insist, I'm going to ask them to take a low-profile role, and not rush in and solo encounters before anybody else gets a chance to contribute. Fortunately most of our local gamers are fairly good team players, so they usually switch to a different character or play a (subtier-appropriate) pregen. Another option is for them to move to a high-subtier table, and for one of the players at that table to move to the lower table and play a more appropriate character.

Maybe as an event coordinator, but I don't see that as an area of authority granted to a regular GM by the Society Guidelines.

"low-profile role, and not rush in and solo encounters before anybody else gets a chance to contribute."

I'm in Ohio. That ship has sailed. You can ask that, but there's a good chance it's not going to happen. That being said, I've seen level 4 PCs way more abusive than any level 7 pregen dreamed of being. So that's why I have a hard time seeing the whole level 7 pregen in a tier 3-4 scenario as an issue. What are they going to do? Excessively bleed on the NPCs? Come on, they're pregens.

The Exchange *****

I'm not sure that having the judge make this decision is a good thing...

I think the players police this now the same way we always have. If the guy is a jerk, we don't play with him. Each time we sit at a table, we look around and see... is there anyone here I'd rather not play with?

I do not want the judge to take that ability away from me. Perhaps I like playing with Jo and her over-the-top combat machine... perhaps I don't. I sure as heck don't want to judge to make that decision for me.

I think it would bother me if the Judge said before the game: "I've decided to bump Jo from the table... you guys didn't want to play with her."?!!

Comments like "keep a low-profile role, and not rush in and solo encounters before anybody else gets a chance to contribute." work better coming from one (or more) of the other players. (IMHO)

Silver Crusade **

nosig wrote:

I'm not sure that having the judge make this decision is a good thing...

I think the players police this now the same way we always have. If the guy is a jerk, we don't play with him. Each time we sit at a table, we look around and see... is there anyone here I'd rather not play with?

I do not want the judge to take that ability away from me. Perhaps I like playing with Jo and her over-the-top combat machine... perhaps I don't. I sure as heck don't want to judge to make that decision for me.

I think it would bother me if the Judge said before the game: "I've decided to bump Jo from the table... you guys didn't want to play with her."?!!

As I said, I think this is outside the authority of a PFS GM.

*

Quote:
Then those GMs would be welcomed to my banned list. There's no way I'd want to play with someone pulling that kind of GM power-trip dick move. PFS is supposed to be fun, not incessant mental gymnastics pimped around by abusive fiat pedants.

As would I. I'd also contact both the VC and VL and report said GM's.

Paladins
Spoiler:
You cannot cause a paladin to fall just for the purpose of a power trip. They have to follow the law but they don't fall automatically if two laws are in direct conflict (IE the law of society vs the law of Absalom) you also cannot fall through inaction.

On the topic of using iconic to avoid death.

There is no question in my mind that you should NEVER be allowed to apply a sheet to an equal level or higher character a pregen played to avoid death.

I'm aware of the collateral cost but there are plenty of collateral costs in PFS this is just another one of them.

The Exchange *****

Undone wrote:

...

On the topic of using iconic to avoid death.

There is no question in my mind that you should NEVER be allowed to apply a sheet to an equal level or higher pregen to avoid death.

...

I do not understand the bolded part...

If a player is using an Iconic in a scenario, and it dies, the player is allowed to assign that game ("the sheet") to a new PC number (sort of to "avoid death"... is that what you are saying that a player should NEVER do?

Silver Crusade **

Undone wrote:
Quote:
Then those GMs would be welcomed to my banned list. There's no way I'd want to play with someone pulling that kind of GM power-trip dick move. PFS is supposed to be fun, not incessant mental gymnastics pimped around by abusive fiat pedants.

As would I. I'd also contact both the VC and VL and report said GM's.

Paladins ** spoiler omitted **

On the topic of using iconic to avoid death.

There is no question in my mind that you should NEVER be allowed to apply a sheet to an equal level or higher pregen to avoid death.

I'm aware of the collateral cost but there are plenty of collateral costs in PFS this is just another one of them.

I don't quite understand this, as sheets aren't applied TO pregens.

*

Quote:

I do not understand the bolded part...

If a player is using an Iconic in a scenario, and it dies, the player is allowed to assign that game ("the sheet") to a new PC number (sort of to "avoid death"... is that what you are saying that a player should NEVER do?

Yes.

Death is already cheap enough in society play.

It should be assigned a character number at the start of the session.

Silver Crusade **

I thought they specifically made that ruling so people would be willing to play pregens in the first place.

The Exchange *****

Undone wrote:
Quote:

I do not understand the bolded part...

If a player is using an Iconic in a scenario, and it dies, the player is allowed to assign that game ("the sheet") to a new PC number (sort of to "avoid death"... is that what you are saying that a player should NEVER do?

Yes.

Death is already cheap enough in society play.

It should be assigned a character number at the start of the session.

but that is not the rule... we all understood that right?

I mean, I don't like the rule on how a PC has to be within one alignment step to be a worshiper of a diety, but that's the way I play it in PFS.

***

Undone wrote:
Quote:

I do not understand the bolded part...

If a player is using an Iconic in a scenario, and it dies, the player is allowed to assign that game ("the sheet") to a new PC number (sort of to "avoid death"... is that what you are saying that a player should NEVER do?

Yes.

Death is already cheap enough in society play.

It should be assigned a character number at the start of the session.

I am pretty sur eyou apply the credit at the END of the scneario.

*

Quote:
I am pretty sur eyou apply the credit at the END of the scneario.

I'm aware. That doesn't mean I have to like it. If you play a real character you can't apply it at the end of the adventure if you don't like the outcome.

***

Undone wrote:
Quote:
I am pretty sur eyou apply the credit at the END of the scneario.
I'm aware. That doesn't mean I have to like it. If you play a real character you can't apply it at the end of the adventure if you don't like the outcome.

I am sorry I misread your post.

I recently had a debate in the game over this and was carrying it over.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Undone wrote:
Quote:
I am pretty sur eyou apply the credit at the END of the scneario.
I'm aware. That doesn't mean I have to like it. If you play a real character you can't apply it at the end of the adventure if you don't like the outcome.

Huh? I would have to make the correction, if this is to make any sense to the statement you made actually being:

If you play a real character you can't not apply it at the end of the adventure if you don't like the outcome.

And, again, the rules were changed, deliberately, and explicitly, to allow the player of a pregen-for-credit to apply the death of said pregen to a new PC, instead of the PC he originally was planning on applying it to. There are a bunch of good reasons for this allowance.

As it is, you lose a PFS PC number, you lose the ability to play that scenario again for credit, barring special circumstances (GM Star replay, basically).

It is also to cover circumstances where, like my area, there may only be one table to play at, and you either wind up with a wide range of PCs, potentially all of one "type", or someone only has 1st level or over-level PCs. Then you wind up playing Shipyard Rats with a 1st level pregen.

Shipyard Rats:
That, form experience running a "real" table of 1st and 2nd level PCs through this scenario, is just plain ugly. There is one encounter where, if you play the PC, within tactics, with just a touch of intelligence, you can easily get a TPK at that level. 6 negative channels, for 2d6 damage, even if you save every time, it adds up to 21 points of damage, on average. That is just ugly for 1st level PCs, especially the non-martial ones, especially without at lkeast one positive channeler in the party.

Silver Crusade ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Undone wrote:
Quote:

I do not understand the bolded part...

If a player is using an Iconic in a scenario, and it dies, the player is allowed to assign that game ("the sheet") to a new PC number (sort of to "avoid death"... is that what you are saying that a player should NEVER do?

Yes.

Death is already cheap enough in society play.

It should be assigned a character number at the start of the session.

That rule would punish people who bite a bullet and play a pregen even if they would really prefer to play their real character.

If you end with a table of 3 Barbarians and you, and play a pregen Bard to help the group... should it really kill your character if Lem dies? Especially if your original character would have survived, and might even have enough treasure to sell of to get a raise dead (which the pregen likely doesn't have).

Chances are, that if this were to happen, PFS loses a player.

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