"There will be table variation on this."
I don't see how. This is beyond the ability of the GM to modify. I guess they can refuse to run.
You wouldn't disallow a level 7 PC or a level 4 PC, because you are not allowed. I don't see how this is any different.
David, I quoted the rule that applies to players using pregens to play a scenario. -bolded to highlight key wording for me.
you may choose to use one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters
If the player is playing their PC, then they can play at any of the level appropriate for that scenario (in this theory crafted example, any level from 3 to 7). The rules allow for this - but the PC is at risk, just like all of the other PCs that are not pregens.
David, we have both presented our arguments to each other, and I suspect that neither one is going to convince the other to change their mind.
Can we agree to disagree on this issue?
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David, we have both presented our arguments to each other, and I suspect that neither one is going to convince the other to change their mind.
Can we agree to disagree on this issue?
I guess; until I sit down at your table with a pregen you disapprove of. But I never use pregens, so I guess that doesn't matter. I'm more advocating for those who do. Silly me.
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The real issue is that the player should be able to select a legal character for that scenario BEFORE subtiers are determined. And then not be forced to change because of decisions out of their control. Yeah, most people would probably go along with stepping down the level, but what if someone wanted practice with 3rd and 4th level arcane spells with Ezren?
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Steven, are you considering, mostly, the case where the GM runs a pre-gen to round out the party? In that case, I am sure, the sub-tier of the adventure determines the level of the NPC.
In a party where the player has a choice of which level pre-gen to play, I would allow the player to use the version of the character she finds most comfortable. Now players, for example, might well do best with a 4th-level character, rather than a 7th.
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I guess it really comes down to when do you calculate the subtier? If the tier calculation occurs before the choice of pregen I could see the argument for limiting pregen level choice.
But teir calculation occurs after pregen choice so just as you can choose any appropriate character for the tier 3-7, you can play either pregen, 4 or 7.
and imnsho, any GM who leaves a table because of the pregen level choice is pulling the largest of dick moves.
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In a 3-7 mod I'm GMing where the players with PCs are all 3rd and 4th level, the pregens must be level 4, period. Anyone telling me I am forced to allow 7th level pregens, I walk.It's not your decision to make. The rules for this are outlined in the Organized Play Guide. No where does it mention the GM having veto power. Legal choices are legal choices. If you want to stomp off over legal choices, I'm not sure what to tell you.
This is a game, not a courtroom. If someone insisted I allow a 7th level pregen with a bunch of 3-4 characters, I'd probably refuse, too. In fact, it sounds like that someone just volunteered to GM. :P
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you may choose to use one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters
Unfortunately, for those who want to say you can't bring a level 7 pregen to a game with mostly level 4 PCs, it doesn't say sub-tier appropriate, but level appropriate.
Sub-tier would limit the choice of pre-gen to something presumably within the sub-tier without the pre-gen. Level appropriate, however, just means that the pregen is within the level range allowed by the scenario or module.
Just for something to think about, for those who want pregens to be sub-tier appropriate:
Sub-tiers available from PFS scenarios:
Scenario tiers (sub-tiers)
1 (1)
1-2 (1, 2)
1-5 (1-2, 4-5)
1-7 (1-2, 3-4, 6-7)
3-7 (3-4, 6-7)
5-9 (5-6, 8-9)
7-11 (7-8, 10-11)
12 (12)
Sub-Tier (Pregen "appropriate" for sub-tier)
1 (1)
2 (?)
3-4 (4)
4-5 (4)
5-6 (?)
6-7 (7)
7-8 (7)
8-9 (?)
10-11 (?)
12 (-)
So, if sub-tier determines pregen, what pregen levels are appropriate for the sub-tiers of 2, 5-6, 8-9, and 10-11?
The best thing you can do, if someone want sot play a pre-gen whose level will change the sub-tier for a game, is make sure everyone is okay with that, the same as you would do if someone wants to play a PC who would do the same.
"Okay, everyone but John is playing a PC who is 3rd or 4th level, John wants to play his 7th level Sorcerer. Calculation show that will move you from sub-tier 3-4 with no adjustment to the 6-7 sub-tier with the 4 player adjustment. Everyone okay with that?" Same as looking at Hard Mode, where it is offered.
If someone is not happy with it, I will do what I can to work things out so everyone gets to play, and everyone is as happy as they can be.
you may choose to use one of several level-appropriate pregenerated charactersUnfortunately, for those who want to say you can't bring a level 7 pregen to a game with mostly level 4 PCs, it doesn't say sub-tier appropriate, but level appropriate.
You do realize that it doesn't say "tier appropriate" either? That level appropriate is wide enough to include both definitions? This is why I stated earlier that there will be table variation on this.
If the whole table is agreeable to having a pregen that is 3 to 4 levels higher than they are in the party, which will raise them to high tier and all of the associated dangers (and that if the level 7 pregen dies there is no real loss to that player, but death to the PCs does have an impact), then I will gladly run the table.
I will point out that I roll out in the open with large dice, and that a crit that would hurt a level 7 character has a good chance of killing a level 3 character (depending on the weapon).
If the player has a level 7 PC, I have less issues (will still point out the dangers - and if some players prefer, they can use level 7 pregens).
I am mostly concerned with someone forcing higher tier on the party with no real risk to their character (besides not being able to play that scenario again). That is where/when my interpretation of level appropriate will be much stricter.
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Here's my thought:
If you sign up with a character number and elect to run a pre-gen over the real thing and it dies. It's dead...unless you can buy your way back.
In regards the situation with sub-tiers of 3-4. I must say my area/group is very fortunate that we do not have this sort of problem but at the same time try to make it fair for everyone who is attending. However, I cannot predict a 3-7 ending well if the sub-tier gets forced into "playing up". Depends on the scenario/mod of course.
Long story short. I let the group decide their fate if they want to allow a someone to make the game harder.
So. is there any real reason not to let the players decide this democratically ?
I mean other than the chance of one strong willed player forcing a couple of polite/introvert players. In that situation the pregen choice might only be the first problem.
The problem about it being done democratically is why, in my opinion, that we now have out of tier gold and strict guidelines about when to play up or down.
In a group of 5 players, 2 with 3rd level characters, 2 with 4th level characters and one player who wants to play a level 7 pregen - the vote could easily be 3 for uptier, 2 against. Does that mean that they have to play up tier, with no real risk to the pregen, but a very real risk to the two who voted against the level 7 pregen?
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bugleyman, just checking: you're fine with someone bringing in her own 7th-level PC with a bunch of 3rd- and 4th-level characters, right?
Absolutely. The only situation that comes to mind in which I would not allow the use of an in-tier character is a 6th or 7th level character is in the case of a tier 1-7 being played subtier at 1-2.
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There's actually a rule against that specific situation anyway.
Some scenarios or special events offer more than two subtiers. In these cases, no PC can play at a subtier more than 1 step away from her character level.
Understood; hence the exception.
What I'm saying is that if I'm running a table for a group of level 3s and one pregen, and the group starts running the numbers to see if they can squeeze in a level 7 pregen without bumping the subtier, that strikes me as gaming the system. Though legal, I may just choose to excuse myself as GM (as is always anyone's prerogative).
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Well if a player wants to play a level 7 pregen to powerhours and wreck the time of the othge rplayer I might consider that breaking the don't be a jerk rule.
I would not stop the player at first, but if they were using an overpowered character to wreck others fun I would kabash that quickly.
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Overpowered pregen? Is like jumbo shrimp? Also, the overwhelmingly most common pregen is Kyra. At least in my experience.The ACG pregens are much powerfull then the orginals.
They're better, but newer players are usually overwhelmed by the list of gear, so the end being functionally not any better, or even worse. Until I see a Zen archer or Tower shield specialist pregen, I'm going to hold off on ever using "overpowered" to describe them.
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They're better, but newer players are usually overwhelmed by the list of gear, so the end being functionally not any better, or even worse.Overpowered pregen? Is like jumbo shrimp? Also, the overwhelmingly most common pregen is Kyra. At least in my experience.The ACG pregens are much powerfull then the orginals.
I disagree. People are more capable than that. Every player I have given the kyra pregen to(I have done 4 times mnyself) have commented on why she has healing spells if she can spont. cast them.
Also experienced players can use pregens as well.
The blood rager is pretty easy. I rage and use my elemental attack.
I have seen that pregen used very effectively on many teirs.
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So far all of the arguments in this thread against using a pregen could be applied to any number of my own characters.
Pregens are underpowered. I have several characters who are good skill monkeys and have some neat tricks they can do, but are otherwise quite useless. I also love to play those characters because they have a lot of personality. They can't keep up with any of the Pregens in power. Bottom line: I am being a jerk to other players because my character isn't powerful "enough."
(Aside: I think I did a pretty decent job HERE of demonstrating that the Pregens actually hold up pretty well against some reasonable power level benchmarks.)
Players don't risk anything with Pregens. I don't feel like I'm particularly risking anything when I play one of my PCs. I've had several die. It is no big deal. If they have the prestige to be raised then I do so. If not, oh well. It was a make-believe character. I can make-believe another character just as easily.
Pregens might upset the power level of the table. This is simply not a Pregen-only issue. In fact, if I want to play my halfling sorcerer, I am bringing a level 5 character to the table. I have no choice, that is her level. If I want to play Amiri (my favorite iconic, who I play with as much personality as my own PCs) then I have the choice of three different levels to play. This gives me (and the people I am playing with) more choice as to the power level we want to play at.
There are many reasons a player might want to play a pregen instead of their own PC. Here are some reasons that I have used:
1. I like playing Amiri. I enjoy her character as much as many of my own PCs.
2. I wanted to try out Harsk (to see if he was as terrible as everyone claims). I had a blast.
3. I forgot to level-up the character I had been planning to play one game. So I played a pregen and applied the credit to a lower-level character.
4. The only character I had in tier was locked into a module.
5. I forgot my character.
6. I wasn't planning on playing, but I stopped by the store to say hi to friends because I was in the area. I was talked into playing because they were short on players. I didn't have my stuff with me so I played a pregen (Amiri) instead of driving 40 min. round trip to get my books and characters.
7. I used pregen credit (3 XP) and GM credit (3XP) to get a character to 3rd level before I started playing her (because the first two levels with that character would have been boring).
8. I played a module with a pregen because I didn't have any character in the narrow range of levels allowed in the module.
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They're better, but newer players are usually overwhelmed by the list of gear, so the end being functionally not any better, or even worse. Until I see a Zen archer or Tower shield specialist pregen, I'm going to hold off on ever using "overpowered" to describe them.Overpowered pregen? Is like jumbo shrimp? Also, the overwhelmingly most common pregen is Kyra. At least in my experience.The ACG pregens are much powerfull then the orginals.
On Sunday, we ran two tables at my house. Both tables were 3 plays plus a pregen. At the table where my wife was playing, they chose the half-orc warpriest (because the three players all had darkvision, and they wanted the pregen to likewise have darkvision). The warpriest dominated the scenario. All the players had a good time, but in all of the encounters except the last encounter, the PCs stood aside and watched the warpriest destroy everything in sight.
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A big one for me (that The Fox also mentioned) is players just plain *not having* the character with them.
This has happened to me a couple times, actually. Once when I was planning to GM but the table didn't fire and so I got to play instead. Once when I signed up to play but literally forgot my character folder at home that day.
In both of those cases, I would be pretty darn upset if someone told me I couldn't apply the credit to a particular character, just because that character would have been legal for the game if I'd had it in my bag.
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Regarding playing a pregen because there's "no risk", I was under the impression that if a pregen died and you applied the chronicle to a particular character that character still counted as dead. Is that not the case?
That is, I sit down to, say, Bonekeep and say I want to play a pregen. The GM passes around the sign-in sheet and I put down 1234-5 as my character number. We play, and my pregen dies. Is not character 1234-5 dead at that point? Or is the GM supposed to change the character number to 1234-6 after the fact so that the credit goes to a blank character? That seems a bit odd to me...
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Regarding playing a pregen because there's "no risk", I was under the impression that if a pregen died and you applied the chronicle to a particular character that character still counted as dead. Is that not the case?
That is, I sit down to, say, Bonekeep and say I want to play a pregen. The GM passes around the sign-in sheet and I put down 1234-5 as my character number. We play, and my pregen dies. Is not character 1234-5 dead at that point? Or is the GM supposed to change the character number to 1234-6 after the fact so that the credit goes to a blank character? That seems a bit odd to me...
The GM is not supposed to change the character to a blank character spot for you if you die as a pregen. However, per the FAQ on the subject, it is the player's right to request to have the change made so that a new character slot is killed off, rather than the character he was going to hold the chronicle for.
EDIT: So, there is no real risk to your own character that's lower level than the pregen, other than that character (nor any of your others) could later play that scenario and earn its rewards later.
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Regarding playing a pregen because there's "no risk", I was under the impression that if a pregen died and you applied the chronicle to a particular character that character still counted as dead. Is that not the case?
That is, I sit down to, say, Bonekeep and say I want to play a pregen. The GM passes around the sign-in sheet and I put down 1234-5 as my character number. We play, and my pregen dies. Is not character 1234-5 dead at that point? Or is the GM supposed to change the character number to 1234-6 after the fact so that the credit goes to a blank character? That seems a bit odd to me...
The GM is not supposed to change the character to a blank character spot for you if you die as a pregen. However, per the FAQ on the subject, it is the player's right to request to have the change made so that a new character slot is killed off, rather than the character he was going to hold the chronicle for.
EDIT: So, there is no real risk to your own character that's lower level than the pregen, other than that character (nor any of your others) could later play that scenario and earn its rewards later.
I was not aware of that FAQ. Makes sense.
Carry on! :-)
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Regarding playing a pregen because there's "no risk", I was under the impression that if a pregen died and you applied the chronicle to a particular character that character still counted as dead. Is that not the case?
That is, I sit down to, say, Bonekeep and say I want to play a pregen. The GM passes around the sign-in sheet and I put down 1234-5 as my character number. We play, and my pregen dies. Is not character 1234-5 dead at that point? Or is the GM supposed to change the character number to 1234-6 after the fact so that the credit goes to a blank character? That seems a bit odd to me...
If the GM sends around the sign up sheet after the scenario, the player can put down whatever they want.
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If the GM sends around the sign up sheet after the scenario, the player can put down whatever they want.Regarding playing a pregen because there's "no risk", I was under the impression that if a pregen died and you applied the chronicle to a particular character that character still counted as dead. Is that not the case?
That is, I sit down to, say, Bonekeep and say I want to play a pregen. The GM passes around the sign-in sheet and I put down 1234-5 as my character number. We play, and my pregen dies. Is not character 1234-5 dead at that point? Or is the GM supposed to change the character number to 1234-6 after the fact so that the credit goes to a blank character? That seems a bit odd to me...
Regardless, even if the GM follows protocol and has character numbers assigned at the beginning a character playing a pregen that was planning on holding the credit for a currently lower level PC can have the assignment changed after the fact.
If my PC or pregenerated character dies permanently, what happens?
Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead or assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead.