On Using Iconics when a player has a legal PFS character of the appropriate tier


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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Rambone wrote:
In a 3-7 mod I'm GMing where the players with PCs are all 3rd and 4th level, the pregens must be level 4, period. Anyone telling me I am forced to allow 7th level pregens, I walk.

Luckily, that mathematically won't be the case.

The highest APL a party could get would be three 4's and a 7, which is 4.75 meaning they play at 3-4, full stop. 7 is not "level-appropriate" for sub tier 3-4 when there is a level 4 version available. "Level-appropriate" is not defined anywhere, so you, as the GM, can determine what "level-appropriate" means. It's unambiguously your call.

In fact, I could see myself ruling that "level-appropriate" means you have to play a level 4 pregen in one game but could play a level 7 pregen in another, both at sub tier 3-4, due to different circumstances between the two games.

When I'm putting tables together, I generally prioritize people playing their own characters over people playing pregens, except for new players at 1-2 tables. Afraid your character will die in that 7-11? No problem, we have a seat at the 1-2 table for you. Your level 3 is locked up in a pbp game? Do you have a 5+ or a 1? We'll put you over there instead. It doesn't always work out that way, but if I do end up with people needing to play pregens, my second line of defense is to have a player I trust be the one playing it: One too many people at the 1-2 and an extra seat open at the 3-4? I'll ask one of my regulars if they'd be willing to play a pregen rather than let whomever jumps into the seat first play it.

Liberty's Edge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
David Bowles wrote:
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.

If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.

There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.

Silver Crusade **

Zach Klopfleisch wrote:
Rambone wrote:
In a 3-7 mod I'm GMing where the players with PCs are all 3rd and 4th level, the pregens must be level 4, period. Anyone telling me I am forced to allow 7th level pregens, I walk.

Luckily, that mathematically won't be the case.

The highest APL a party could get would be three 4's and a 7, which is 4.75 meaning they play at 3-4, full stop. 7 is not "level-appropriate" for sub tier 3-4 when there is a level 4 version available. "Level-appropriate" is not defined anywhere, so you, as the GM, can determine what "level-appropriate" means. It's unambiguously your call.

...

I'm thinking that a table of 3x4th levels, 2x5th levels, and a 7th level pregen comes out to an APL of 4.8, which rounds to 5, and with 6 players that adjust to subtier 6-7 with the 4 player adjustment. This situation means the 7th level pregen has made the difference in the subtier.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

DesolateHarmony wrote:

I'm thinking that a table of 3x4th levels, 2x5th levels, and a 7th level pregen comes out to an APL of 4.8, which rounds to 5, and with 6 players that adjust to subtier 6-7 with the 4 player adjustment. This situation means the 7th level pregen has made the difference in the subtier.

Which will probably give a better night for everyone involved because the early scenarios tend to be pretty easy.

Liberty's Edge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Reading this discussion makes me laugh because my first thought is "Are any players really this cheesy?" and then I remember that I personally know players that have done this kind of thing in the past. It just sucks that we have to be saddled with awkward and overly punishing campaign rules because of bad behavior from a few.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

Feral wrote:
Reading this discussion makes me laugh because my first thought is "Are any players really this cheesy?"

Hello! And welcome to the forums! :)

Quote:
and then I remember that I personally know players that have done this kind of thing in the past. It just sucks that we have to be saddled with awkward and overly punishing campaign rules because of bad behavior from a few.

I've never done it with a pregen, but its almost standard operating procedure to try to go up if the party is anywhere near the midline simply because going down results in stomping the scenario flat.

Liberty's Edge *****

Eh, I don’t consider opting for a pregen to play up bad behavior but I have a friend that I’ve played with for years try to switch out his character for pregens when the DM mentions a given scenario is dangerous. Fortunately, a healthy amount of public shaming works wonders. Maybe that's what the campaign needs - guidelines for public shaming!

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DesolateHarmony wrote:
Zach Klopfleisch wrote:
Rambone wrote:
In a 3-7 mod I'm GMing where the players with PCs are all 3rd and 4th level, the pregens must be level 4, period. Anyone telling me I am forced to allow 7th level pregens, I walk.

Luckily, that mathematically won't be the case.

The highest APL a party could get would be three 4's and a 7, which is 4.75 meaning they play at 3-4, full stop. 7 is not "level-appropriate" for sub tier 3-4 when there is a level 4 version available. "Level-appropriate" is not defined anywhere, so you, as the GM, can determine what "level-appropriate" means. It's unambiguously your call.

...

I'm thinking that a table of 3x4th levels, 2x5th levels, and a 7th level pregen comes out to an APL of 4.8, which rounds to 5, and with 6 players that adjust to subtier 6-7 with the 4 player adjustment. This situation means the 7th level pregen has made the difference in the subtier.

Blarg, I forgot the rounding part, I don't usually let tables get that close. I'd still probably rule "level-appropriate" to be whatever is closest to APL without the pregen, so a table of 3s and 4s would get a level 4 pregen. If you've got a mix of out of tier PCs in there, it would be more of a judgment call.

Same with a table where the pregen is just there to allow them to play up. I'd probably allow it if everyone at the table convinced me that they're enthusiastic about playing up, or if is at least mostly OK with it and I know it's not a dangerous scenario for that party. But if they're intentionally playing up, the Season 4- rule is in effect: Kid gloves are off, punches will be aimed at tender spots and landed with full force, Death Knell was prepared for a reason, et cetera, et cetera. THEN everyone will have to convince me that they're enthusiastic about playing up, and since I know my players, I know the ones who might not speak up but also tend to be pretty risk averse. If those players aren't at the front of the line, I'll simply nix the idea and take the blame for it.

It's different for big conventions where tables are plotted out weeks in advance and people don't know each other. But for local game days and small conventions, it's an issue that the coordinator often can and should head off at the pass so the GM never has to deal with it.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Andrew Christian wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.

If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.

There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.

You got a precedent that says the pre-gen has to be in sub-tier? And when does your precedent say to calculate sub-tier, before or after adding in the pre-gen?

The Exchange *****

do we really need to take this out of the control of the players? Really?

I have enough on my plate deciding on what my monsters are doing, I don't want to have to second guess the motivations of my players.

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nosig wrote:

do we really need to take this out of the control of the players? Really?

I have enough on my plate deciding on what my monsters are doing, I don't want to have to second guess the motivations of my players.

For the most part, no. We can leave it in the hands of our players. But I'm not going to say my hands are tied and let someone troll the rest of the table, either, so I'll step in if I think it's necessary when I'm GMing.

As a coordinator seating tables, I try to arrange it so everybody can play their own characters on the principle that people generally want to play their own characters and get credit now instead of playing a pregen and getting credit later or maybe never. There's also the the principle that the other players and GM will have a better time if everyone is playing a character they're familiar with and invested in. Those principles aren't universally 100% applicable, luckily I'm not a robot so I can adapt to the situation as I see it.

Silver Crusade *

Go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all the pregens come in 1st level, 4th level, and 7th level versions? Soooooooo....

Yes, he or she can play whichever pre-gen character he or she chooses to play-- but, it will be the level-appropriate version... to me at least, that means playing the pre-gen of choice at the level that is closest to the average level of the rest of the party (and within the level limits of the scenario, for some of those corner cases...). Meaning, you can play any of the pregen characters: Kyra, or Harsk (if you wish), or Lirandys, or any of the others out there (other than any specific restrictions stated in the PFS Guide to Organized Play).... no restriction there, but-- although the scenario overall may be 3-7, if the entire rest of the party is 3rd and 4th level characters, you get to play the 4th level version of your pre-gen of choice, NOT the 7th level version. It's still the same character-- just at a different power level.

Silver Crusade **

Andrew Christian wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.

If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.

There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.

The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.

There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.

I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.

*

David Bowles wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.

If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.

There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.

The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.

There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.

I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.

1. Precedent, not precedence.

2. The GM, like any other player, always has the option of not participating. The campaign rules are irrelevant.

Silver Crusade **

I can't believe any GM would cancel a table because someone used a level 7 toon instead of a level 4 toon. It's just not that important.

**** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

David Bowles wrote:
I can't believe any GM would cancel a table because someone used a level 7 toon instead of a level 4 toon. It's just not that important.

I don't know if it ever would happen. If it did, it is likely because multiple people refused to budge.

Really, peer pressure should keep this from coming up. If the whole table wanted to play up, then the GM should allow it. If even one player was uncomfortable with it, the GM should heavily encourage the pregen to not play up. If they are trying to play out of sub-tier, I would suggest they not. If they insisted, I would inquire with the event coordinator to "make sure this was alright".

The player is unlikely to want the event coordinator to be asked about this. That would just about ensure that the local VC hears about it.

Just because you are within the letter of the law doesn't make it right.

*****

And I read the Guide's statement of "level-appropriate" pre-gen to be closest to the sub-tier being played. If you have an option that's in sub-tier and an option that's not, you play the option in sub-tier, as from my stance, that is what is appropriate.

If you judge it differently, then at tables you run, you do as you think the rule reads. At tables I judge, I'll run it with the requirements I read from the Guide's text.

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While I hate to come out on the side of those who would play a level 7 in a 3-4 game (or a level 4 in a 1-2 game), I don't see anything prohibiting this behavior. Nothing says you have to play a pregen that is closest in level to the average of the rest of the party.

As an aside, the APL to determine sub tier is based on the entire party's APL, not the party minus the pregen and then decide what level pregen to use.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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David Bowles wrote:
I can't believe any GM would cancel a table because someone used a level 7 toon instead of a level 4 toon.

Depends on who is playing the level 7.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
David Bowles wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.

If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.

There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.

The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.

There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.

I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.

I agree with your logic, but disagree with the conclusion.

Playing a character grossly out of power with the party destroys the experience.

Ex. I played a 1-7 scenario where the APL was 2 until a 7th lvl character arrived and bumped it up to the next tier. None of the other characters could enter melee and expect to live more than a round at best. We all played 2nd fiddle to the 7th level character who walked us through the scenario.

Although the GM did a fine job, it was a lackluster experience for the rest of us. Note: this did not involve a pre-gen but the effects are the same...except with a pre-gen its avoidable.

This is a game, and it should be fun. I applaud any GM who cares enough to make it so for the players. Pre-gens should be the same level as the party.

Silver Crusade **

Grey_Mage wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.

If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.

There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.

The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.

There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.

I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.

I agree with your logic, but disagree with the conclusion.

Playing a character grossly out of power with the party destroys the experience.

Ex. I played a 1-7 scenario where the APL was 2 until a 7th lvl character arrived and bumped it up to the next tier. None of the other characters could enter melee and expect to live more than a round at best. We all played 2nd fiddle to the 7th level character who walked us through the scenario.

Although the GM did a fine job, it was a lackluster experience for the rest of us. Note: this did not involve a pre-gen but the effects are the same...except with a pre-gen its avoidable.

This is a game, and it should be fun. I applaud any GM who cares enough to make it so for the players. Pre-gens should be the same level as the...

Usually I've seen parties squeezing in level 7 Kyra over level 4 Kyra. No one's experience was ruined. There are a thousand other ways that one can end up playing second fiddle. And level 2 PCs should be able to do fine in an early season tier 3-4 scenario. The level 7 was just getting them extra $$ in that case.

*****

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David Bowles wrote:
Grey_Mage wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Advise, sure. Force? I don't think that's within the powers of the GM.

If the table is playing sub-tier 4-5, then the pregen needs to be the level 4 pregen.

There is absolutely no precedence that indicates you can choose to play an out of sub-tier pregen except in the 5-6, 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier.

The pregen is part of the subtier calculation, so there is no "out of subtier" pregen. The pregen, to me, is chosen before subtier is calculated. The pregen can legally play the scenario or they can not. The end result sub-tier is irrelevant. The GM has no say in player sub-tier manipulation.

There is no precedence of a GM telling a player which legal PC they can use. Except passive refusing to hand out a pregen, which can be solved by the player bringing their own.

I don't understand why so many GMs even care about this if the players at the table don't care. I've never seen a group willing to tier up because of a pregen, anyway. It's always been a case of selecting the highest pregen that won't end up tiering them up. But this is another reason that I never use pregens and I encourage other players to never use them as well.

I agree with your logic, but disagree with the conclusion.

Playing a character grossly out of power with the party destroys the experience.

Ex. I played a 1-7 scenario where the APL was 2 until a 7th lvl character arrived and bumped it up to the next tier. None of the other characters could enter melee and expect to live more than a round at best. We all played 2nd fiddle to the 7th level character who walked us through the scenario.

Although the GM did a fine job, it was a lackluster experience for the rest of us. Note: this did not involve a pre-gen but the effects are the same...except with a pre-gen its avoidable.

This is a game, and it should be fun. I applaud any GM who cares enough to make it so for the players. Pre-gens should

Usually I've seen parties squeezing in level 7 Kyra over level 4 Kyra. No one's experience was ruined. There are a thousand other ways that one can end up playing second fiddle. And level 2 PCs should be able to do fine in an early season tier 3-4 scenario. The level 7 was just getting them extra $$ in that case.

The level 7 was doing more than getting them extra $$...the level 7 stomped the scenario while the rest of the table watched and went along for the ride.

Doing something like this is one of the things that can drive away starting players by overriding the cooperative play environment.

The Exchange *****

heck, you can get an in Sub-tier PC that can covert the game to a lackluster experience for the majority of the players. Sometimes it's just a PLAYER issue...

I think it is much less likely to happen with a Generic PC... the example David used was of a 7th Kyra over a 4th level Kyra. Something that I have seen done to IMPROVE the quality of the game for the other players (allowing lower level party members to fill higher level combat rolls by using shield other).

Silver Crusade **

I have never seen someone try to wedge in level 7 Amiri, for example.

Silver Crusade ***

I find it pretty humorous that the main complaints about pregens still seem to be:

1. The pregens are underpowered and pose an undue risk on those poor PCs they adventure with..

AND

2. Someone might play a pregen and stomp the adventure, hurting the feelings of those poor PCs they adventure with.

Neither of these arguments hold water in light of each other.

Moreover, each argument can be applied to PCs.

1. Harsk 7 is more powerful than one of my 8th-level characters (who happens to also be one of my favorite characters). I would be pretty upset if someone told me I couldn't bring my 8th-level character to the table because it poses too much risk to the rest of the table.

2. Anyone can build a highly-optimized 6th-level character who is much more powerful than Amiri 7 and ruin the fun of three players with 4th-level characters in a Tier 3-7. The problem isn't Amiri; the problem is a player who is not playing nice with the other players at the table.

Silver Crusade **

"I would be pretty upset if someone told me I couldn't bring my 8th-level character to the table because it poses too much risk to the rest of the table."

No one can stop you. You might want to give others a heads up, though.

Silver Crusade ***

David Bowles wrote:
You might want to give others a heads up, though.

Ha!


Sniggevert wrote:
Doing something like this is one of the things that can drive away starting players by overriding the cooperative play environment.

Reading threads like this is enough to drive players from PFS. Or keep them from trying it out. It sure did it for me. Not this thread but others on the boards here.

Grand Lodge

The Fox wrote:

I find it pretty humorous that the main complaints about pregens still seem to be:

1. The pregens are underpowered and pose an undue risk on those poor PCs they adventure with..

AND

2. Someone might play a pregen and stomp the adventure, hurting the feelings of those poor PCs they adventure with.

Neither of these arguments hold water in light of each other.

Moreover, each argument can be applied to PCs.

1. Harsk 7 is more powerful than one of my 8th-level characters (who happens to also be one of my favorite characters). I would be pretty upset if someone told me I couldn't bring my 8th-level character to the table because it poses too much risk to the rest of the table.

2. Anyone can build a highly-optimized 6th-level character who is much more powerful than Amiri 7 and ruin the fun of three players with 4th-level characters in a Tier 3-7. The problem isn't Amiri; the problem is a player who is not playing nice with the other players at the table.

But the inverse argument is equally true. If the relative power doesn't matter, then playing the lower level pre-gen shouldn't be an issue.

The true measure is the scenario, which is to challenge the party and allow the opportunity for each character to shine, but a GM can't adjust the scenario and not all scenarios are built for 4 party adjustment playing up.

Since RAW is interpreted differently it falls within RAI. However, I see different camps entrenched here. I don't mean to mis-characterize anyone here, but I've seen some of the best GMs and worst under my limited time in PFS. Some want to share an experience, and others want to be out of the shop by 9PM so they can apply a chronicle sheet to a character.

Allowing a character to skew the APL either for $$ or expeditiousness may well fall under the latter group. I humbly submit the difference between legal and ethical behavior. Rule as you wish, but I play and GM for the experience and challenge.

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Not entirely hypothetical, with players gathered around a local gamestore table with 4th and 5th-level characters. A friend walks in:

"I have a 5th level character that I would like to play in this adventure. As it turns out, I didn't bring the legal copies of the resources necessary to play him. I'd like to play a pre-gen and credit the adventure to my character. Can I play a 4th-level pre-gen and give credit to the PC?"

"No; you can only give credit to a PC of lower level."

"Can I play a 7th-level version of the pre-gen?"

--- Your answer?

Lantern Lodge *****

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Chris Mortika wrote:
--- Your answer?

"It'd fit the rest of the party better to play a 4th level pregen, which you could apply to a different (new or existing) character. Would that be an issue?"

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Chris Mortika wrote:
--- Your answer?

"What resources are you missing? I have nearly the entire Pathfinder collection here on my iPad. As long as there isn't anything obscure you're using, you should be fine to play your character."

Silver Crusade ***

Chris Mortika wrote:
--- Your answer?

Yes. But you should still only give credit to a PC of lower level than the tier of the scenario.

Here is what the guide says:

GtPFSOP wrote:

You may not apply a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the

level of the pregenerated character or higher, as you should have used this character for the scenario instead.

I believe the intent is to encourage players to play their own characters instead of pregens when possible. That includes encouraging us to remember to bring our own characters and the necessary resources.*

It is a fair compromise to allow players to play pregens (whatever pregen they want at whatever level they want, provided the level is within the Tier of the scenario) whenever they want as long as they apply credit to a character who could not have played that scenario at the time credit is issued.

* I have found myself in this exact situation and similar situations numerous times. So this is less hypothetical to me.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

The Fox wrote:

I find it pretty humorous that the main complaints about pregens still seem to be:

1. The pregens are underpowered and pose an undue risk on those poor PCs they adventure with..

AND

2. Someone might play a pregen and stomp the adventure, hurting the feelings of those poor PCs they adventure with.

Even a horribly underpowered level 7 character can do some serious damage to a level 3 dungeon. Even harsk (if he drops the xbow).

1. Harsk 7 is more powerful than one of my 8th-level characters (who happens to also be one of my favorite characters). I would be pretty upset if someone told me I couldn't bring my 8th-level character to the table because it poses too much risk to the rest of the table.

.... how?

2. Anyone can build a highly-optimized 6th-level character who is much more powerful than Amiri 7 and ruin the fun of three players with 4th-level characters in a Tier 3-7. The problem isn't Amiri; the problem is a player who is not playing nice with the other players at the table.

The level 6 character at least earned/played their way there.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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The Fox wrote:

I find it pretty humorous that the main complaints about pregens still seem to be:

1. The pregens are underpowered and pose an undue risk on those poor PCs they adventure with..

AND

2. Someone might play a pregen and stomp the adventure, hurting the feelings of those poor PCs they adventure with.

Neither of these arguments hold water in light of each other.

They do when they apply to separate situations.

A 7th level pregen is, on average, less powerful than a 7th level PC.

A 7th level pregen is, on average, more powerful than subtier 3-4 encounters.

Silver Crusade

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Chris Mortika wrote:

Saint, let me give you a real-life, not-making-this-up example.

I've met a pair of GMs who've advanced the following argument: "the Pathfinder Society uses smugglers to get goods into Absalom. Missions often involve breaking laws to get into a site or get out stealing artifacts. It is, essentially, a criminal enterprise, wrapped in lofty rhetoric. Paladins cannot function as pawns of that organization. If I have a paladin sit at my table, I'll ask him if he accepts the mission briefing. If he does, he falls." They are otherwise okay GMs.

So, let's say your only character in-tier is a paladin. Are you sure you'd want to bring him to that table, to argue for an hour? Wouldn't you rather play a pre-gen?

Dude. There are canon examples of Pathfinder paladins, Ollysta Zadrian foremost among them. They can't do that. Do they also do this to clerics, warpriests, etc of lawful good/paladin-sponsoring deities? A cleric of Iomedae isn't held to much in the way of a different standard.

Edit: Actually I'm hitting FAQ on this, because it's a major problem. Is the above-described behavior actually within a GM's authority?

RoshVagari wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Nicely said, Sebastian.

Saint, let me give you a real-life, not-making-this-up example.

I've met a pair of GMs who've advanced the following argument: "the Pathfinder Society uses smugglers to get goods into Absalom. Missions often involve breaking laws to get into a site or get out stealing artifacts. It is, essentially, a criminal enterprise, wrapped in lofty rhetoric. Paladins cannot function as pawns of that organization. If I have a paladin sit at my table, I'll ask him if he accepts the mission briefing. If he does, he falls." They are otherwise okay GMs.

Then those GMs would be welcomed to my banned list. There's no way I'd want to play with someone pulling that kind of GM power-trip dick move. PFS is supposed to be fun, not incessant mental gymnastics pimped around by abusive fiat pedants.

Hear, hear!

***** ⦵⦵⦵

Chris Mortika wrote:

Saint, let me give you a real-life, not-making-this-up example.

I dunno if they need an email, a cease and disist order, or a guide to organized play to the head but they need something...

Silver Crusade *

David Bowles wrote:
Usually I've seen parties squeezing in level 7 Kyra over level 4 Kyra...

And there it is again-- there is a 4th level version of Kyra, and a 7th level version. I don't feel that it's restricting the player's legitimate choice of pregen at all to tell the player that he/she will be playing the 4th level version with a 4th level party. It's STILL Kyra, if that is the pregenerated character he or she wants to play. The same considerations apply to all of the pregens.

I do not agree with the premise that the player's choice of pregen includes whatever level version he or she can possibly shoe-horn into the scenario's overall limits-- as opposed to, take the PFS-legal version of his/her pregen of choice that most closely matches the party's level.

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

9 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Against my habits, I would request some guidance from John or Mike on this topic. If a player comes to a Tier 1-5 adventure, and everybody else has a 2nd-level PC, is it all right for the GM to require a player play the Level 1 version of a pre-gen, when he'd rather play the 4th-level version?

Or whatever other particulars you like. Is it up to the GM to allow or disallow a tier-legal pre-gen that's out of subtier?

Silver Crusade **

Finn Kveldulfr wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Usually I've seen parties squeezing in level 7 Kyra over level 4 Kyra...

And there it is again-- there is a 4th level version of Kyra, and a 7th level version. I don't feel that it's restricting the player's legitimate choice of pregen at all to tell the player that he/she will be playing the 4th level version with a 4th level party. It's STILL Kyra, if that is the pregenerated character he or she wants to play. The same considerations apply to all of the pregens.

I do not agree with the premise that the player's choice of pregen includes whatever level version he or she can possibly shoe-horn into the scenario's overall limits-- as opposed to, take the PFS-legal version of his/her pregen of choice that most closely matches the party's level.

I still don't see why the bar suddenly changes for a pregen vs a PC. I still don't see why, as the GM, you would even care. Remember that subtier is not determined normally until AFTER PCs have been chosen. Yes, this can be manipulated, which is fine, but the order of operations is still basically that order.

***

There is a a player I know that regualrly wants to play the highest level he can when the rest of the party is in the low teir(he also throw visible tantrums when he can not play an out of teir character for smaller teirs like modules and level 1-2 stuff). He makes a point to destroyt the encounters, forcing combats the party does nto want knowing his character 3 or 4 levels high will be fine. I will not let him if I dm, and if he does that at a table I aplying at I get up and leave.

If he does not have his own character to do this he now uses the warpreist to do it. So that is my only concern when I see people doing these things.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

I don't believe that the level 7 Kyra is the appropriate level in subtier 3-4.

The Exchange *****

what about the reverse of this scenario? someone sitting down and pulling a 1st level Iconic when (at least some of) the other players are 4th level?

In the extreme, this could be a mix of:

three 4th level PCs, and a 1st level Iconic, and the Iconic pulls the table back to sub-tier 1-2 (13/4=3.25 rounds to 3, 4 players plays down)...

Can you (as the Judge) force a player to play a higher level Iconic?

***

nosig wrote:

what about the reverse of this scenario? someone sitting down and pulling a 1st level Iconic when (at least some of) the other players are 4th level?

In the extreme, this could be a mix of:

three 4th level PCs, and a 1st level Iconic, and the Iconic pulls the table back to sub-tier 1-2 (13/4=3.25 rounds to 3, 4 players plays down)...

Can you (as the Judge) force a player to play a higher level Iconic?

I would let the playters vote on what to do. All it takes is two of the level 4s to leave the table and you no longer have a game.

Forcing them to play a game they do not want is not right either. At this point you need to draw the line somewhere.

If I were at a table with all 4s wanting to play up and someone insists playing thier level 1. that would force us down I would either play a lower level too, or leave the table.

The Exchange *****

Finlanderboy wrote:
nosig wrote:

what about the reverse of this scenario? someone sitting down and pulling a 1st level Iconic when (at least some of) the other players are 4th level?

In the extreme, this could be a mix of:

three 4th level PCs, and a 1st level Iconic, and the Iconic pulls the table back to sub-tier 1-2 (13/4=3.25 rounds to 3, 4 players plays down)...

Can you (as the Judge) force a player to play a higher level Iconic?

I would let the playters vote on what to do. All it takes is two of the level 4s to leave the table and you no longer have a game.

Forcing them to play a game they do not want is not right either. At this point you need to draw the line somewhere.

If I were at a table with all 4s wanting to play up and someone insists playing thier level 1. that would force us down I would either play a lower level too, or leave the table.

I don't have an answer... just questions. Sorry.

in fact, I think your answer is the right one, even if I would say it as "let the players decide"... though maybe not as formal as a vote.

*****

nosig wrote:

what about the reverse of this scenario? someone sitting down and pulling a 1st level Iconic when (at least some of) the other players are 4th level?

In the extreme, this could be a mix of:

three 4th level PCs, and a 1st level Iconic, and the Iconic pulls the table back to sub-tier 1-2 (13/4=3.25 rounds to 3, 4 players plays down)...

Can you (as the Judge) force a player to play a higher level Iconic?

You bet. Determine what average level of the party is and then find the most "level-appropriate" pregen to fill the spot if you want to play.

It seems the most issues are what is an appropriate level. I see it as based on that particular table, others it appears are seeing it as only limited by the scenario. If you do it based on the table, however, you're much less likely to sway the table away from the majority of players playing their own PC.

EDIT: Added quote since I was ninjad a couple times =p.


Agree with Sniggy 100%

If the party are playing level 4s and 5s you are playing the level 4 pregen. Whether you wanted to play level 1 or level 7, I'm going to be insisting you play at the level closest to the others.

Everybody is equal and all that, but those who are playing their actual characters are MORE equal than those just playing a pregen ;)

So whether this means you dont get to play a higher level pregen and can't beat the scenario one handed, or whether it means you can't play a level 1 pregen and be of little to no use, either way I would have you play closest to the avg level.

Silver Crusade **

"I'm going to be insisting you play at the level closest to the others"

I'm questioning whether the GM has this authority. However, it seems like a pretty rare occurrence for most people. However, in my play area, this has come up multiple times.


Authority can be a bit of a grey area, seing as the GM has the authority to back out of a game (it's bad-form, but the fact that they can does tend to lend them a little bit of extra authority in decision making).

And there is also the RAW vs RAI, I personally believe pregens are available as an option for those who CAN'T play their own character, NOT as an alternative to them. As such you should just be happy to have that option, you should not be trying to play your pregen at a different level to the party.

Again all this is just my opinion, as you can see from my name I'm not some venture captain or anyone important, so its probably not worth much :D

Silver Crusade **

", you should not be trying to play your pregen at a different level to the party."

Again, though, the second most common pregen I've seen people using like this is Ezren, to learn more about 3rd and 4th level arcane spells. They can't do that with a level 4 Ezren. They aren't taking over level 3-4 scenarios with level 7 Ezren. Because Ezren sucks.

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