Goblin Squad Member
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At least Nihimon is positive about the game and attempts to defend it and this community because he actually wants it to succeed.
It seems like all that Bludd, and you other followers, want is to have the game YOUR way, because you think your way is the best way, or the RIGHT way (because that's what they did in EvE, right?).
And so, now, you feel that isn't happening, and you bring your negativity and aggressive, abusive tones to these forums, as well as taking any and every opportunity to slander and defame not only Nihimon, but other community members as well.
Yes, we do look forward to getting to fight you in-game. Until then, keep your cowardly 'word daggers' out of our backs.
I'm only going to respond to one point made in this post, the rest is largely negative and baiting.
As for wanting this game to fail, that is quite laughable. I have invested $400 to this game. I have 25 months of game time. I want this game to be at the very least a "AA" title. But I'm not going to say that S##t smells like ice cream either. Or that MVP is either determined by Goblin Works, but rather by the consumer. So far from what I have seen and heard, the consumer outside of these forums is not buying in. That is not good for my $400 investment.
I have been vocal about fixing what I see as broken, both mechanically and conceptually. I have been most vocal in my concerns for the MVP not meeting what consumers will be willing to purchase and PFO actually not making it to OE. I've been vocal about the small population, so small that it limits the effectiveness of some of the systems that are proposed.
Maybe those that are so willing to look the other way at these imperfections, invested a much smaller amount than I have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You have the same false mentality that befell Audeucet, Bludd.
Your contributions, monetarily, to this game were not an 'investment.' You were not given shares in the company and there were no promises of any ROI. To believe that you have an 'investment' in this game is to falsely believe that your viewpoint and vision for the game should supersede those of others who do not have as much of an 'investment.'
You have been vocal, yes. And in all honesty, you have been mostly civil (as compared to other nay-sayers who shall remain un-named). But you have also focused on a "you should make the game like EvE" mentality that contradicts the long-term vision of the game.
Lastly, we have ALL been vocal about fixing things that we see as broken, I really do not see where everyone is getting this false reasoning that we 'fanbois' are all lolipops and rainbows. All that one need do is visit the GW forums to see the dozens and dozens of threads where we give feedback and suggestions for the benefit of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
About the '8 different weapons'.
I can see that GW here is in a difficult position. From the needs of 80% of gamers it is probably not necessary to have that broad options. Why do you have a steel dagger, cold iron dagger and a silvered dagger when all work the same anyhow? Isn't this 'wasted' effort and programming time?
From a PvP player perspective the answer is - YES.
But this doesn't take into account the crafter site and the economy. Without the cold iron and silvered dagger (and other 'useless' stuff) you wouldn't have much after level 1-3 to craft in a meaningful way until you reach Tier 2.
The whole game is based on meaningful player interactions. This does start with the gathering, refining and crafting.
Fighting over what is crafted - PvP - only comes afterwards. PvP will only be meaningful if there is something valuable to fight over.
The crafting and the economy form the basis on which everything else later depends. I have spend 80% of my time in alpha so far to better understand this part of the game, to learn it and to know what I need to do for my settlement that ensures this part is working for us.
And in my view GW has done a pretty good job to lay this foundation.
But it has come at a cost. PvP I fully admit looks not ready.
To me PvP is something that can be fixed at a later stage. There might even be some advantages if the game is PvP light in the first two to three weeks as it allows economies to be build up and allows something to be build up worth fighting for.
Does this mean PvP players got the short straw?
In the short term certainly. But long term they will benefit from a better game that is based on a better foundation.
Writing this it occured to me - why not start EE now (last week). Just let Explorers and Crafters into the world. Let them build up for a month and then let everyone else in.
No - this is not a serious suggestion as it won't work / would cause a huge outcry. But maybe thinking about such a suggestion would allow to better understand why economy needs to come first and fighting over it is a second.
All this will be a no-issue after a few month and when everything is working. But I have seen it with my son. He was disappointed playing as he wants more to fight then to build.
Having been on the sideline for a few weeks and being able to come into a game where he could get decent equipment he now enjoys the game.
I have been contemplating to suggest to some players inm y alliance - depending on playstyle and what they expect - to rather wait the first month and only come in later. They might do themselve a favour - with the one issue that you only get XP while in the game ... But apart of that it actually might be better for some players to wait the early days of EE. This also means that fighting will be more stable when they actually join and they will have something to fight for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just want to step in and say i think there is a lot of unfair lumping going on, both sides. Some posters like Bludd and Leithlin have been doing a bangup job being harsh on the current state of the product, as is their right to an opinion, but staying within the spirit of crowdforging and wanting the game to succeed. Also the members of PAX gaming have been exemplary members of the community throughout alpha. It's also completely unfair to lump the members of Phaeros as fanboys who see no wrong in the game when a good half of our active members have openly said they don't think the game is ready for EE.
There are actually only one or two in here who have taken advantage of the process as an excuse to be toxic. The vast majority in here deserve a pat on the back for doing this right.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't tried LiF myself but looking at the forum over at mmorpg.com and the user reviews on Steam, well, to put it mildly it's pretty clear that a lot of people and players are seeing plenty of problems with that game, the qualifications of its developers, the community management and marketing practices.
I'm withholding judgement since I lack personal experience with that game but I think it can be valuable to see that both here and there people see completely different things when looking at the same product.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't tried LiF myself but looking at the forum over at mmorpg.com and the user reviews on Steam, well, to put it mildly it's pretty clear that a lot of people and players are seeing plenty of problems with that game, the qualifications of its developers, the community management and marketing practices.
I'm withholding judgement since I lack personal experience with that game but I think it can be valuable to see that both here and there people see completely different things when looking at the same product.
The grass is always rendered nicer in the other video game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh sure there are critics as there are with any product but 75% of the steam users who reviewed it gave it a positive review. You really think PFO would get anywhere near that if there was that open of a setting to go review it in? Steam users aren't really known for holding back their opinions I've seen games with mostly negative reviews that absolutely get torn to shreds for failing to deliver a quality product.
Today I heard someone else who tried both PFO and LiF echo my thoughts exactly which is that they found PFO a chore to play, while LiF had them so they couldn't wait to get home from work and staying up late at night so that they could play some more.
There is a reason I keep plugging LiF. The standard excuses are: "This is a small company! It's an alpha! They don't have the budget for that! Give them more time! You're expecting the impossible! Things will get better!"
LiF is the exact same situation. They could be using ALL of those excuses. What they've done instead is deliver a product with enough quality that when I tried it was the things they did right that stood out more than the aspects of the game that were lacking.
So I'm holding PFO to the same standards as LiF. Not a AAA title with a AAA budget or a game that's already been out 10 years. Another small sandbox with a similar feature package that's actually a bit behind them in their development stage but still managed to make their product several times as fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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About the '8 different weapons'...
No. 8 different melee weapons:
1. Light Knife
2. One-Handed Axe
3. One-Handed Blunt (Which actually breaks down into clubs, maces and hammers but I didn't count them since they don't have a fully unique set of abilities)
4. One-Handed Fencing
5. One-Handed Sword
6. Piercing Polearm
7. Two-Handed Blunt
8. Two-Handed Sword
If you want weapons in general then you also get:
9. Longbow
10. Shield (It has it's own set of attack feats so I count it as a weapon)
11. Shortbow
12. Mage Staff
13. Mage Wand
14. Focus
I figured I wouldn't attack them as much because while two types of bows and arcane casting objects are not part of MVP the rest of the items I can see as being important to a good MVP launch. With melee weapons anything above a single one handed and single two handed weapon isn't needed.
Your argument against it doesn't even make sense. What I feel MVP for weapons is, is this:
1. One-Handed Sword
2. Two-Handed Sword
3. Longbow
4. Shield
5. Mage Staff
6. Focus
Or maybe even:
1. Two-Handed Sword
2. Longbow
3. Mage Staff
4. Focus
I'm not arguing against their silver or cold steel versions. I'm arguing against making way the hell more weapons types than you need, each with their own set of unique abilities.
@Thod - nailed it.
How? He's barely even talking about the same subject.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To contrast that. Guild Wars 1. Which I would describe as having the best tab targeted combat system of all time launched (as in full release off the shelves this product is 100% finished) with:
1. One Handed Hammer*
2. One Handed Axe*
3. Two Handed Hammer
4. Staves and Wands (Counts as the same in that game since they share the same abilities)
5. Bows (Counts as the same since the share the same abilities)
*Not counting shields since I'm pretty sure there was no shield based attack set.
Yeah it released with a few more roles and abilities (Warrior, Ranger, Monk, Elementalist, Necromancer, and Mesmer) but then, it was a full release and they weren't touting their commitment to minimum viable product.
Point is until the first expansion (Which added knives) and second expansion (which added spears and scythes) they made it by with only 5 weapon categories, while PFO touting their commitment to the minimum viable product has given us 14 not even counting implements, grenades, etc. and we aren't even out of alpha.
If everything else were good and we had all of the actual minimum viable product such as gear loss and feuds in then I would be popping a bottle of champagne. But it is not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You have the same false mentality that befell Audeucet, Bludd.
Your contributions, monetarily, to this game were not an 'investment.' You were not given shares in the company and there were no promises of any ROI. To believe that you have an 'investment' in this game is to falsely believe that your viewpoint and vision for the game should supersede those of others who do not have as much of an 'investment.'
You have been vocal, yes. And in all honesty, you have been mostly civil (as compared to other nay-sayers who shall remain un-named). But you have also focused on a "you should make the game like EvE" mentality that contradicts the long-term vision of the game.
Lastly, we have ALL been vocal about fixing things that we see as broken, I really do not see where everyone is getting this false reasoning that we 'fanbois' are all lolipops and rainbows. All that one need do is visit the GW forums to see the dozens and dozens of threads where we give feedback and suggestions for the benefit of the game.
You have been reading my use of the term "investment" as having only one definition of the term.
I have made a monetary investment, a time investment and a social and emotional investment into the game and this community. Unlike investing in stocks, I do not expect a monetary profit in return for that investment. However, like all investments I do expect to get value commensurate with a certain level of expectation I hold.
I have not introduced the comparison to EvE, and I'm doubtful PFO or any other MMO can duplicate the type of success that EvE has enjoyed. Just as EvE can not duplicate the same success that WoW had / has, nor WoW what EverQuest had.
I have only asked that the meaningful PVP that GW has espoused makes its way into the game, as quickly as possible and if possible as part of MVP.
Potential is not a hook. Few consumers will buy into "potential", rather they will say "call me when you get there."
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Andius
If LIF is giving you what you want and PfO is not, I am curious why you are still even here? Do you really think that your method of criticism is going to have an impact? Is it your mission to damage PfO because it is not proceeding in the exact way that YOU want? If so, how sad!
In reality it is going in the way that you want. It is just taking longer than you like.
From reading your posts, it looks (to me) like, as usual from your long history here, that your way is the only acceptable way to proceed. Anything different than your way is incorrect and doomed to failure. Surely you are not so full of yourself that you believe that?
Every single one of us that are sticking out the alpha are trying to help make the game better. We are tired. We are none of us happy with the state of the bugs. We are none of us (or very few) happy with the pace of improvement and fixes. Some are taking breaks until things improve. Some are moving on and that is just fine. You seem to be stuck in a limbo hell of anger, unfulfilled expectations, and bitter feelings. You would do yourself good to step back for a bit and get back to the guy that wrote all the neat stuff for the kickstarter. That was a neat guy. That guy, I am not seeing for some time.
If you are done with this game, move on. If you want to help and be Constructive, get your ass in there and DO some stuff and post results. Look at what is in game. Tell GW what you think in a constructive manner. You have some great points and some valid ideas. They are lost in venom. Don't expect immediate results. There is much to fix here and it takes time. You just can't expect something that someone else is building to be built according to your schedule and your desires of implementation. You do not have a copy of their plans. If those plans do not match your plans, well that is tough. The end result, of the plans, are the same as they were at the start of this. You just have no patience.
The only difference is that we are patient. Reading the reviews for LIF, you can easily see that they have thier negative crowd too. They have their unhappy crowd. They have their crowd that complain about censorship of opinion. At least here (so far) you get to complain that you are not directing the game's direction and that your ideas for priorities are not being duly implemented.
Then again, your future livelihood is not tied into this venture, is it?
I have tried, before, to help you see that this approach of yours is flawed. It really is flawed if improving the game to a state that you want is your goal. If that isn't your goal, then why are you still here? Put your accounts up for sale and get out. You will feel better. If you want to turn things around and help make the game better and what you want, then drop this style of commenting. It isn't working.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just a crazy idea - do a wipe, start a new phase of alpha with partial trasfer into EE - that is, all characters are wiped, with their exp and posessions, except for the items belonging to an officially assigned for each settlement "bankbot" character. That would technically give no disadvantage to those starting later (well, kinda), give incentive to play for those who don't mind lack of action and allow crafters/gatherers to "build" some foundations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm here because there are so many members of this community I want to kill in-game, and there are a select few in this community I look forward to working alongside. If this game is in a decent state and I'm enjoying myself by the time my enemies are defeated then I will stay, if not I will move on.
I don't really care about this community's opinion of me anymore. I tried being a nice polite mentor for two years, and when it came down to it, it didn't matter for s+@~. Those who I respect also seem to respect me, and I could give a f#%$ less about everyone else.
Behind the venom there is a genuine interest in seeing this community being able defend itself and GW making a game that can actually succeed. I've simply lost hope of those two things and patience for those who I feel are moving things farther from those objectives but my vengeance in-game still seems completely within grasp.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just want to step in and say i think there is a lot of unfair lumping going on, both sides. Some posters like Bludd and Leithlin have been doing a bangup job being harsh on the current state of the product, as is their right to an opinion, but staying within the spirit of crowdforging and wanting the game to succeed. Also the members of PAX gaming have been exemplary members of the community throughout alpha. It's also completely unfair to lump the members of Phaeros as fanboys who see no wrong in the game when a good half of our active members have openly said they don't think the game is ready for EE.
There are actually only one or two in here who have taken advantage of the process as an excuse to be toxic. The vast majority in here deserve a pat on the back for doing this right.
I couldn't have said it better myself Avari; we can all learn something from each other. Though, I've said it once and I'll say it again: some of you are your own worst enemy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not introduced the comparison to EvE, and I'm doubtful PFO or any other MMO can duplicate the type of success that EvE has enjoyed. Just as EvE can not duplicate the same success that WoW had / has, nor WoW what EverQuest had.
Small quibble: World of Warcraft didn't just duplicate the success of Everquest. WoW buried EQ. Once WoW took off, EQ never regained its early dominance.
I'm not so sure about the difficulty of following EVE's growth curve. From what I've read, Star Wars Galaxies was following that curve pretty well, before its developers tried (and failed) to shift it onto WoW's trajectory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Thod - nailed it.How? He's barely even talking about the same subject.
What I was talking about is the foundation that is necessary for options later.
At the moment there is no 'need' to differentiate the axe, the sword, the mace. They are just too simuilar and cost extra time.
But this view is short-sighted.
A better animation can be added later.
A differniation that a skeleton gets Damage reduction against piercing can be added later.
What can't be added later are recipes and training.
If you add recipes only after 6 month for say fencing weapons then they will always have to compete against an existing economy that has swords working for a long time.
If you add training for fencing weapons later then you either need to allow re-training or people will just not use them.
This is what I meant by foundation and sorry if I misinterpreted you 8 weapons as more specific types. But the same applies here. You have to have these different types of weapons in early because they are part of the foundation. These can't be added later.
But having so much early comes at a cost.
I prefer the long time outlook over a short time better game play.
The danger is if not enough people see it that way and the long time potential will not be realized.
Just for the record - I founded the Emerald Lodge based on being close to the Emerald Spire. This is a long term view as no dungeons are in the game yet. But I rather prefer they get the overall foundation first. A dungeon then can be added - it won't work the other way round - having a dungeon now and add the economy later.
Oh - and my son told me he saw some green castle in the place where the Emerald Spire should be. Time to investigate.
Disclosure: He was disappointed because it didn't look like he envisoned the Emerald Spire and because you couldn't interact with it. For me it is exiting because this means the chance that actually one day you can go into the Emerald Spire and interact there just got one step closer - even if I can't interact or do anything with it yet. It means there is a placeholder there for the time being.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My son told me he saw some green castle in the place where the Emerald Spire should be. Time to investigate.
Disclosure: He was disappointed because it didn't look like he envisoned the Emerald Spire and because you couldn't interact with it. For me it is exiting because this means the chance that actually one day you can go into...
Could you and your son try to capture a screenshot for us?
The way things stand, hitting Print Screen captures an image, but then you need to switch to another program (Photoshop / Paint / Word / etc.) and hit Paste. Right now, screen shots are not automatically saved into a directory where you can find them later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the moment there is no 'need' to differentiate the axe, the sword, the mace. They are just too simuilar and cost extra time.
Not when you give each of them their own set of unique abilities with damage factors, stamina costs, and additional effects that all have to be balanced.
I could see that argument being used in a game where melee weapons share all or even the great majority of their abilities but for some reason PFO hasn't chosen that route so it can't be used here.
A better animation can be added later.
A differniation that a skeleton gets Damage reduction against piercing can be added later.What can't be added later are recipes and training.
If you add recipes only after 6 month for say fencing weapons then they will always have to compete against an existing economy that has swords working for a long time.
If you add training for fencing weapons later then you either need to allow re-training or people will just not use them.
Like how when they add new ship types and weapons into EVE and Dust 514 nobody uses them because they can't respec? Oh wait... yes they do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People hold you to that stranded because you take a sanctimonious tone and try to act like you are saving PFO single handedly. No one holds Bludd to any kind of standard like that because he has never pretended to be anything other then what he is.
Exactly.
If you strive to be civic-minded, friendly, and helpful, you're held to an impossible standard. Whereas if you're rude, dismissive, and insulting, you get a free pass.
Or, shorter Phyllain - if you try to be virtuous, we'll shout you down and shut you up.
I'm not inclined to let you shut me up, or to let you use my own virtue as a cudgel to beat me with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm here because there are so many members of this community I want to kill in-game, and there are a select few in this community I look forward to working alongside. If this game is in a decent state and I'm enjoying myself by the time my enemies are defeated then I will stay, if not I will move on.
I don't really care about this community's opinion of me anymore. I tried being a nice polite mentor for two years, and when it came down to it, it didn't matter for s#!$. Those who I respect also seem to respect me, and I could give a f~$# less about everyone else.
Behind the venom there is a genuine interest in seeing this community being able defend itself and GW making a game that can actually succeed. I've simply lost hope of those two things and patience for those who I feel are moving things farther from those objectives but my vengeance in-game still seems completely within grasp.
Yeah but I feel better for trying to bring back to his senses one of the great early proponents of this venture. A community builder and a popular fellow, all around. If you refuse to absorb any of my terrible lecture, that is on you. A man that is too full of himself has little chance to absorb any other ideas or see things from any other angle. He limits himself and stagnates. I feel like you are in that place.
Your rivalries and ambitions (in-game) have nothing to do with how I feel about all this. That, IMO, is a great story. Both sides feel that they are right. There will probably be conflict. So long as it does not enter a griefing state, that is "game working as intended". I do not believe that you are the type to go to griefing (just to be on record). Don't prove me wrong. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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People learn different perspectives from their experiences in life. From grade school on I learned the perspective of going with the crowd and following pack mentality just didn't work for me.
It was reinforced by experiences like in 6th grade where we were given a question on a math test we hadn't been taught how to solve yet by mistake, and I was the one person who was able to solve it anyway or in 7th grade when they had to give me and two other students in the class a new reading comprehension test because we scored too high on the first, and then being told I only missed a single question on the 2nd.
I realize I behave in a manner that I know better and am capable of seeing things everyone else can't see in many instances. It's because I have a lifetime of experience showing me I actually can be right when everyone else is wrong.
That's not a perspective I expect everyone to understand or appreciate because it's not something most people get to experience on any kind of consistent basis, whereas I have.
That's why I behave the way I do. While the PFO community may be larger than a single class there are enough people who can see the things that I do to tell me that it's not just me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
At the moment there is no 'need' to differentiate the axe, the sword, the mace. They are just too simuilar and cost extra time.Not when you give each of them their own set of unique abilities with damage factors, stamina costs, and additional effects that all have to be balanced.
Like how when they add new ship types and weapons into EVE and Dust 514 nobody uses them because they can't respec? Oh wait... yes they do.A better animation can be added later.
A differniation that a skeleton gets Damage reduction against piercing can be added later.What can't be added later are recipes and training.
If you add recipes only after 6 month for say fencing weapons then they will always have to compete against an existing economy that has swords working for a long time.
If you add training for fencing weapons later then you either need to allow re-training or people will just not use them.
The novelty value of trying something new is fun. If the new items do something different than the existing items, if they give an advantage in a different way than the existing items, then yes, people will train them.
I don't think PFO's starting weapon list is excessive. There are plenty of weapons from the tabletop game that aren't in PFO yet. Whole categories, like crossbows, firearms, and full-length polearms, are available for expansion later.
The Golarion-specific weapons, like the earthshaker, klar, elven curve blade, and bladed scarf*, will all increase the feeling of playing Pathfinder in online form, as opposed to a generic fantasy MMO. When they're added, I'm willing to bet that people will train any new skills they need to get their hands on these iconic weapons.
*If you ever need proof that the folks at Paizo have a special love for Varisia, compare the number of unique weapons that originate there to the special weapons that come from everywhere else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand there needed to be a solid foundation for the crafting economy but I am not buying the "have to add them now, because it will cause trouble later" argument.
Stephen himself has mentioned several other weapons that they want to have in the game later on, as well as skills/feats that may need a lot of rethinking/balancing/tweaking. This all depends on the game's success.
Succesfull games *will* implement new stuff over time: Weapons, Classes/Roles, even Races. Because customers ask for it, and the company wants to expand on their game (and has the money for it). And even with PFO's pay-for-xp-system, people will start using that new content, and a respec will not even be needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You have been reading my use of the term "investment" as having only one definition of the term.You have the same false mentality that befell Audeucet, Bludd.
Your contributions, monetarily, to this game were not an 'investment.' You were not given shares in the company and there were no promises of any ROI. To believe that you have an 'investment' in this game is to falsely believe that your viewpoint and vision for the game should supersede those of others who do not have as much of an 'investment.'
You have been vocal, yes. And in all honesty, you have been mostly civil (as compared to other nay-sayers who shall remain un-named). But you have also focused on a "you should make the game like EvE" mentality that contradicts the long-term vision of the game.
Lastly, we have ALL been vocal about fixing things that we see as broken, I really do not see where everyone is getting this false reasoning that we 'fanbois' are all lolipops and rainbows. All that one need do is visit the GW forums to see the dozens and dozens of threads where we give feedback and suggestions for the benefit of the game.
Nope. I read your use of the term correctly. Anyone who feels they have an 'investment' in this game will inevitably come to the conclusion that they have some of entitlement.
I have made a monetary investment, a time investment and a social and emotional investment into the game and this community. Unlike investing in stocks, I do not expect a monetary profit in return for that investment. However, like all investments I do expect to get value commensurate with a certain level of expectation I hold.
Exactly. So have we all. The difference is that we SHOULDN'T EXPECT certain things as reward for our time, money, and emotion. That is not how this works and is a direct correlation to that issue of feeling 'owed' because of your 'investment.' GW doesn't 'owe' any of us anything. Do they WANT to reward us and attempt to repay our 'investments' in the game? Yes. But it will be when THEY want and HOW they want.
GW has a vision for how this all works. We don't get to say 'I don't think you are right because I made an "investment" in your product.'
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Goblin Squad Member
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The beauty of a PFO/EVE-style xp system is that we never actually need a re-spec or an xp refund, unless skills that we've trained are removed from the game (like EVE's learning skills).
If something new is added, you just train it in addition to what you've already trained. Your versatility goes up, and your effectiveness doesn't go down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...earthshaker, klar, elven curve blade, and bladed scarf......or everyone's favourite tabletop game-wrecker, the spiked chain, seat of all exploits :-).
I'm kind of glad I missed that. I was on a tabletop RPG hiatus through 3.0 and 3.5, and came back to it in the Pathfinder era.
Not to say that Pathfinder doesn't have it's own game-breaking quirks, but the 3.5 spiked chain sounds like it was a particularly extreme and long-lived exploit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People hold you to that stranded because you take a sanctimonious tone and try to act like you are saving PFO single handedly. No one holds Bludd to any kind of standard like that because he has never pretended to be anything other then what he is.Exactly.
If you strive to be civic-minded, friendly, and helpful, you're held to an impossible standard. Whereas if you're rude, dismissive, and insulting, you get a free pass.
Or, shorter Phyllain - if you try to be virtuous, we'll shout you down and shut you up.
I'm not inclined to let you shut me up, or to let you use my own virtue as a cudgel to beat me with.
You really are full of yourself aren't you? I'm not trying to shut you up or censor you. I enjoy watching you think that you are a video game messiah saving the unclean from the evil Bludd. As for using your "virtue" as a cudgel to beat you with i'm sure you have never used someone else's stance on a matter to argue a point against them.
You are only civic-minded, friendly, and helpful to those that agree with you in every sense of the word on every subject. Any one who has ever dared to disagree with you has immediately been branded a threat to your community and shouted down as toxic. Maybe not by you explicitly but by one of your members.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People hold you to that stranded because you take a sanctimonious tone and try to act like you are saving PFO single handedly. No one holds Bludd to any kind of standard like that because he has never pretended to be anything other then what he is.Exactly.
If you strive to be civic-minded, friendly, and helpful, you're held to an impossible standard. Whereas if you're rude, dismissive, and insulting, you get a free pass.
Or, shorter Phyllain - if you try to be virtuous, we'll shout you down and shut you up.
I'm not inclined to let you shut me up, or to let you use my own virtue as a cudgel to beat me with.
The point is you are a frequently rude individual who is completely dismissive of any points of view other than your own. (Not saying I don't act the same way)
You think it's justified because you feel like what you are doing is for the good of the community, but anyone who does not subscribe to your line of thinking is immediately outcast from your vision of "the community".
But I of all people know that anyone with whom you have any disagreement with will immediately be exiled from your "community". So to your claims of being "virtuous" I ask you: "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?"
How are you any different than me? In my mind they only difference is you have not yet faced a situation where you felt those close to you were letting an outsider ruin everything you worked so hard to build. I have no doubt that faced with the same situation, you would do the exact same thing.
It's part of why I have the level of anger toward you that I do. Because in that instance, the only difference between us is that I would have supported you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Forum shouting matches that couldn't be translated into in-game battles were a big reason why I took a long break from posting. Sides and factions were in place, ready to duke it out, but the game hadn't even reached Alpha.
The tension of having the game almost, but not quite, ready for EE seems to be enhancing our tendency to snipe at each other again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People hold you to that stranded because you take a sanctimonious tone and try to act like you are saving PFO single handedly. No one holds Bludd to any kind of standard like that because he has never pretended to be anything other then what he is.Exactly.
If you strive to be civic-minded, friendly, and helpful, you're held to an impossible standard. Whereas if you're rude, dismissive, and insulting, you get a free pass.
Or, shorter Phyllain - if you try to be virtuous, we'll shout you down and shut you up.
I'm not inclined to let you shut me up, or to let you use my own virtue as a cudgel to beat me with.
You really are full of yourself aren't you? I'm not trying to shut you up or censor you. I enjoy watching you think that you are a video game messiah saving the unclean from the evil Bludd. As for using your "virtue" as a cudgel to beat you with i'm sure you have never used someone else's stance on a matter to argue a point against them.
You are only civic-minded, friendly, and helpful to those that agree with you in every sense of the word on every subject. Any one who has ever dared to disagree with you has immediately been branded a threat to your community and shouted down as toxic. Maybe not by you explicitly but by one of your members.
Wow. What forums have YOU been reading... lol
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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People learn different perspectives from their experiences in life. From grade school on I learned the perspective of going with the crowd and following pack mentality just didn't work for me.
It was reinforced by experiences like in 6th grade where we were given a question on a math test we hadn't been taught how to solve yet by mistake, and I was the one person who was able to solve it anyway or in 7th grade when they had to give me and two other students in the class a new reading comprehension test because we scored too high on the first, and then being told I only missed a single question on the 2nd.
I realize I behave in a manner that I know better and am capable of seeing things everyone else can't see in many instances. It's because I have a lifetime of experience showing me I actually can be right when everyone else is wrong.
That's not a perspective I expect everyone to understand or appreciate because it's not something most people get to experience on any kind of consistent basis, whereas I have.
That's why I behave the way I do. While the PFO community may be larger than a single class there are enough people who can see the things that I do to tell me that it's not just me.
That's an interesting story that mirrors my own experience. I'm actually a little sad that I was consistently the smartest person in my peer group (by objective tests) until I was 18. I became so used to being more right than anyone else that I had trouble adapting to the wider world where I was right only 90% or so of the time, and where people who had moderately more domain-specific experience and could outperform me in that domain were common.
In short, the problem with having always been smarter is that I lacked experience not being smarter. Learning how to be wrong is harder than knowing how to be right almost all of the time.
Without bringing any specific drama here, I think you have trouble being wrong; not just admitting that you have been mistaken, but in making an observation that varies from your predictions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How are you any different than me? In my mind they only difference is you have not yet faced a situation where you felt those close to you were letting an outsider ruin everything you worked so hard to build. I have no doubt that faced with the same situation, you would do the exact same thing.
It's part of why I have the level of anger toward you that I do.
I can honestly say that you are wrong. Nihimon has FREQUENTLY relinquished his own personal feelings and opinions on matters in regards to our guild. He is open and inviting to opposing views and ideas. I personally believe he relishes the opportunities to be proven wrong.
He is also the first person who will freely admit that he is wrong, when such is the case. Which could not be more different from you.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Watch it boys, this is a good thread we don't want locked. I can say I disagree with Nihimon quite often, sometimes publicly, so that is certainly not the singular reason to be at odds with him.
Your disagreements that I've seen on our fora are nothing compared to mine. There have been a few occasions that would have gotten locked here. But rather than becoming more entrenched in our conclusions as a result, we have been able to focus on points of disagreement, classify them as factual or subjective, and then resolve the disagreement by observation, experimentation, compromise, or disagreement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can honestly say that you are wrong. Nihimon has FREQUENTLY relinquished his own personal feelings and opinions on matters in regards to our guild. He is open and inviting to opposing views and ideas. I personally believe he relishes the opportunities to be proven wrong.
He is also the first person who will freely admit that he is wrong, when such is the case. Which could not be more different from you.
I'm not sure about those, as I cannot read closely his innermost soul, but I can affirm that he has twice complimented me for owning my own errors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Watch it boys, this is a good thread we don't want locked. I can say I disagree with Nihimon quite often, sometimes publicly, so that is certainly not the singular reason to be at odds with him.Your disagreements that I've seen on our fora are nothing compared to mine. There have been a few occasions that would have gotten locked here. But rather than becoming more entrenched in our conclusions as a result, we have been able to focus on points of disagreement, classify them as factual or subjective, and then resolve the disagreement by observation, experimentation, compromise, or disagreement.
Yeah...I just curse him out and then we make jokes ;p
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure about those, as I cannot read closely his innermost soul, but I can affirm that he has twice complimented me for owning my own errors.I can honestly say that you are wrong. Nihimon has FREQUENTLY relinquished his own personal feelings and opinions on matters in regards to our guild. He is open and inviting to opposing views and ideas. I personally believe he relishes the opportunities to be proven wrong.
He is also the first person who will freely admit that he is wrong, when such is the case. Which could not be more different from you.
I have spoken with, and listened to, Nihimon for many hours in TS, which is definitely a more accurate window in to what a person is like than any millions of words written in a forum can be.
Others, I'm sure, can attest to the veracity of my claims. Even those who aren't Phaerians.
Regardless, I'm done in here, I think. I was just getting tired of the blatant and relentless 'Nihimon-bashing' that has been happening in the last few months and wanted to say that just because he is the most vocal and active of our community doesn't mean he is alone.