Please Do One of These Two Things if you Launch Thursday.


Pathfinder Online

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Right now in the state that the game is in, I'm not very happy about the prospect of spending my skill points.

All my magic attacks make me stationary and the balance between robes, light armor, medium armor, and heavy armor really favors heavy armor.

How can I really know if I'll like these roles when they presumably aren't anything like their final form?

The reason I paid so much to get in on the first month is because of the promise of EVE style training and the idea of being there from the very start.

At this point I'm left with the option of investing my skill points in making a character for a combat system that has drastic changes needed before it can be considered finished, just letting XP build and not playing the game (while my 15$ a month time is eaten up), or losing the first month advantage I paid so much for.

If you actually release this game in such an unfinished form I would like to see one of two things happen.

1. We do not lose any paid for time until the game is in a more finished/functional state. This is so that we can build and save our XP until the game is in a form we want to play without losing paid time.

2. We have the option of having all of our XP refunded once all the abilities are working and fairly close to their final form, and all the armor types are balanced. That way we can play and enjoy the game without having to worry about whether or not we're wasting XP on abilities we won't be using once the combat is more function.

I realize all games go through endless cycles of nerfs and buffs that will leave players dissatisfied with previous training choices but currently it doesn't feel like any of the roles are even finished being built.

Goblin Squad Member

Enruel wrote:
1. We do not lose any paid for time until the game is in a more finished/functional state. This is so that we can build and save our XP until the game is in a form we want to play without losing paid time.

How do you judge when that form is complete? Can you be more specific?

Enruel wrote:

2. We have the option of having all of our XP refunded once all the abilities are working and fairly close to their final form, and all the armor types are balanced. That way we can play and enjoy the game without having to worry about whether or not we're wasting XP on abilities we won't be using once the combat is more function.

I realize all games go through endless cycles of nerfs and buffs that will leave players dissatisfied with previous training choices but currently it doesn't feel like any of the roles are even finished being built.

Please tell us more about the training choices you worry about.

Goblin Squad Member

I have 24 months of pre purchased time, and quite cynically I'm going to start my character on day 1 of EE.

Although I agree with you, my situation is a bit different. My fear is that if I wait 6 months, and the game never makes it to OE due to insufficient population, I'll be leaving much of that 24 months on the table and never used.

So day 1 it is for me, whenever that is.

As for multiclassing, well that seems to be the best way to go for right now. But you are right, everyone is running around in Heavy Armor; most if not all are trained in a few Cleric feats for faster travel; most have the wand feats of Downward Burst and Windrider; etc.

Basically, most players are min-maxing builds. That was expected by many of us that are familiar with MMOs.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

I have 24 months of pre purchased time, and quite cynically I'm going to start my character on day 1 of EE.

Although I agree with you, my situation is a bit different. My fear is that if I wait 6 months, and the game never makes it to OE due to insufficient population, I'll be leaving much of that 24 months on the table and never used.

So day 1 it is for me, whenever that is.

As for multiclassing, well that seems to be the best way to go for right now. But you are right, everyone is running around in Heavy Armor; most if not all are trained in a few Cleric feats for faster travel; most have the wand feats of Downward Burst and Windrider; etc.

Basically, most players are min-maxing builds. That was expected by many of us that are familiar with MMOs.

lol yeah my dwarf cleric is running around in +2 Hide and Steel with Dragoon slotted carrying a +2 Diminishing Staff for Ranged and a +2 Longsword for whirlwind melee (when not using Wraith Cry) with a +3 Acolyte Holy symbol for the cleric spells. He also has a +2 Longbow but finds the diminishing staff more effective.

I was initially concerned the role thing would kill multi-classing but in fact those people that single class are rarities. Though that may partly be due to the difficulty leveling up any one class past level 5 or so feats.

Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
lol yeah my dwarf cleric is running around in +2 Hide and Steel with Dragoon slotted carrying a +2 Diminishing Staff for Ranged and a +2 Longsword for whirlwind melee (when not using Wraith Cry) with a +3 Acolyte Holy symbol for the cleric spells. He also has a +2 Longbow but finds the diminishing staff more effective.

My dwarven cleric in Alpha is starting to gravitate towards this type of build also.

Do you think it has more to do with its effectiveness towards the current variety (or lack thereof) for mobs?

If the economy made higher tier gear available do you think this would provide more specialization choices?

From the nature of buffs and debuffs do you see weaknesses in your multiclassing build that more dedicated choices could take advantage of in PvP? Do you find yourself always using the same attacks against your opponents?


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Takasi wrote:
Enruel wrote:
1. We do not lose any paid for time until the game is in a more finished/functional state. This is so that we can build and save our XP until the game is in a form we want to play without losing paid time.
How do you judge when that form is complete? Can you be more specific?

1. When a wizard with all wizard feats is more powerful than, or at least on par with a heavy armor cleric or fighter wielding an arcane implement.

2. When the idea of specializing in hand to hand combat and wearing light armor isn't laughable.

3. When charge abilities work 100% of the time.

4. When ranged characters aren't stationary when activating any ability, but also aren't ridiculously overpowered.

In short, when things are actually working.

Goblin Squad Member

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Takasi wrote:
Neadenil Edam wrote:
lol yeah my dwarf cleric is running around in +2 Hide and Steel with Dragoon slotted carrying a +2 Diminishing Staff for Ranged and a +2 Longsword for whirlwind melee (when not using Wraith Cry) with a +3 Acolyte Holy symbol for the cleric spells. He also has a +2 Longbow but finds the diminishing staff more effective.

My dwarven cleric in Alpha is starting to gravitate towards this type of build also.

Do you think it has more to do with its effectiveness towards the current variety (or lack thereof) for mobs?

If the economy made higher tier gear available do you think this would provide more specialization choices?

From the nature of buffs and debuffs do you see weaknesses in your multiclassing build that more dedicated choices could take advantage of in PvP? Do you find yourself always using the same attacks against your opponents?

I multiclass becasue for me different roles have gaps.

The cleric divine spells for the holy symbol are good (the 350 point cure and the aid, blessing, divine strength spells are good as is the endure elements style spell and there a few with 35m range) but the battle/occult/elemental weapons are pretty ordinary, especially because by design the max range is 20m which does not work well when ranged is rooted.

The longbow is effective for single target ranged but in PvE especially against low/mid mobs lacks a useful AoE attack. Sure you can one shot goblins and recruits and all their friends will ignore you and you can isolate and snipe red and yellows but it tends to be slow clearing mobs. The one AoE that it gets is only 20m and a streak. Hence the +2 diminishing staff with Wilting Surge able to one shot groups of 4 or 5 gobbos simultaneously at 35m is more effective for my purposes.

Dragoon on the matching +2 Hide and Steel is because it is the heavy that gives the best bonuses for the way I play. I have unbreakable and Crusader and the matching +2 Pot Steel and +2 Yew and Iron heavy armors available but dragoon just works better for my style.

The +2 longsword is for the charge feat and the whirlwind in melee plus the understrike/thousand cuts combo for difficult single targets.

Basically the build is designed around clearing low to mid level mobs efficiently. In particular killing several hundred goblins per hour chasing itchy stuff for green.

If i was going to PvP or was trying to get high level drops in PvE I may well have built it differently. it is not an optimal min/max build it is something the character acquired over time through playing.


Keep in mind that "From day 1" for the full game is not until early 2016.

EE is a paid Beta, so the quality should be solid; but it is also a true beta. Many of the things you listed will be far from final for many months to come. Improved, maybe, but not final.

Not to speak for Ryan, but he has stated multiple times that he expects many players with paid accounts to not start active play in Beta until some months into EE.

Goblin Squad Member

Enruel wrote:

1. When a wizard with all wizard feats is more powerful than, or at least on par with a heavy armor cleric or fighter wielding an arcane implement.

2. When the idea of specializing in hand to hand combat and wearing light armor isn't laughable.

I had a suggestion to this effect in another topic awhile back. Think I'll formalize it up and post it in it's own topic.

Goblin Squad Member

Sort of agree.

Though I would point out its arcane weapons (wand and staff) that you see commonly wielded by fighter/cleric types not the implements (spellbooks).

Goblin Squad Member

As a rogue who wants to play as a rogue, and a tanner/leatherworker I have to agree. With encumbrance the way it is I am always going to be better off using plate, even if it costs me all the keywords for an armour feat, and it kills the market for leather armour.

I'm not normally fussy about immersion breaking stuff, but this one really breaks it for me.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I think there are several aspects here

a) This is beta - so changes will happen.
b) Everyone plays by the same rules

This leads to short term versus long term - we know that they will add encumbrance and that it will long term be better to have a mage with robes and not running around in heavy armor. You have your choice to go short term and use heavy armour now to get an advantage - but lose out when they change it - or you go long term and suffer now to be weaker.

What you are asking for is basically having it both - like having the cake and eat it. This won't happen for good reasons as rebuilds allow perfect min/max and therefore heavily distort.

I'm aware this might not the answer you like to hear. But I feel anything else will just lead to more issues further down the line. We have had several hundred comment long threads in the PathFinder Society about rebuilds. There always are individual cases that justify to allow it - but the price to pay is higher as the gain you get. I'm not expecting this to be different here.

And yes - this means good optimization includes to anticipate what will change how and building up a character accordingly. It is not different to running an adventure path. You have vast different characters if they build them from scratch at level 10 or if they have started with them not knowing what will happen the next 9 level.

To me this is an aspect I enjoy - but for someone who likes to plan 1 year of XP in advance it likely is a nightmare and a turn-off.

Goblin Squad Member

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Thod wrote:

This leads to short term versus long term - we know that they will add encumbrance and that it will long term be better to have a mage with robes and not running around in heavy armor. You have your choice to go short term and use heavy armour now to get an advantage - but lose out when they change it - or you go long term and suffer now to be weaker.

What you are asking for is basically having it both - like having the cake and eat it.

Or, if you intend to play a heavy armor class longterm you get short term and longterm power. You get to have your cake and eat it.

I think the issue is this game is nowhere near the relatively bug free but content light beta we were promised.

I say go with option three and push back the release date until all four roles are working as intended.

Goblin Squad Member

Don't forget, "it's not beta", it's early enrollment. It's definitely not beta.

As things stand, I feel the Rogue is totally broken because most of the things that define the role are either not implemented or broken. There is nothing roguey about playing a rogue. For melee and ranged and armour, I may as well be a fighter and do all those things better.

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

Don't forget, "it's not beta", it's early enrollment. It's definitely not beta.

As things stand, I feel the Rogue is totally broken because most of the things that define the role are either not implemented or broken. There is nothing roguey about playing a rogue. For melee and ranged and armour, I may as well be a fighter and do all those things better.

I have been thinking the same thing, been trying to weigh the options of just going fighter with a few rogue skills or just go all out rogue and hope it gets fixed.


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The reason why they probably aren't going to launch Thursday is player unrest. Add to that they have been quiet in response to it... we should be ready for a push-back. Rightly so, I've taken a huge step back from monitoring these forums because it's too chaotic. I can't sit there thinking O ITS ON then be pushed back.

I think if they could fix the game then yeah... it would be nice to wait until it's fixed. The truth is: bugs don't bother me. I've played buggy games and laughed off bugs.

The underlying issue is, as said, it's not balanced yet. The armor, the encumbrance, probably stam, too (assuming they didn't fix that... haven't been in game for awhile) are huge issues.

as I said in another thread: the game can launch slowly, but they should avoid trying to pop it into EE if there is a chance they could have to roll back and/or give an unfair advantage to people.

IF Heavy armor is king, people will spec heavy armor. Even knowing they will get nerfed. Or the game will be all heavy armor characters. Which, we wonder... is heavy armor even balanced against light armor at the moment?

Many questions, most regarding balance, to me. I think MVP should be balanced. Even if it is bare. Games never recover from extended periods of imbalance, at least in my eyes. Some people can overlook it, but people who go super hard can get so much stuff in 6 months, knowing the imbalances.


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As somebody else mentioned, I think they should dispense with setting a date for EE, and just compile a list of required things that need to be working properly and be in place before EE. Give a rough idea on how long they think that might take, and then just say "hang tight" while they finish those things.

If they do launch within a week from now, I'm guessing their intention will be to let the first week be a chance for everything to relocate to their settlements, and probably have tower capping disabled during that time. Then there would be another content patch right before "throwing the switch" on the tower war.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Enruel wrote:
Takasi wrote:
Enruel wrote:
1. We do not lose any paid for time until the game is in a more finished/functional state. This is so that we can build and save our XP until the game is in a form we want to play without losing paid time.
How do you judge when that form is complete? Can you be more specific?

1. When a wizard with all wizard feats is more powerful than, or at least on par with a heavy armor cleric or fighter wielding an arcane implement.

2. When the idea of specializing in hand to hand combat and wearing light armor isn't laughable.

3. When charge abilities work 100% of the time.

4. When ranged characters aren't stationary when activating any ability, but also aren't ridiculously overpowered.

In short, when things are actually working.

1. Have a duel between the wizard in wizard armor and the wizard in heavy armor.

2. Sorry, the abyssal thermostat doesn't go that low. Light armor is for speed and stealth, not melee combat.
3. Fair point, but they work enough now to be useful enough.
4. You know that Stationary ranged attacks are MMO standard, right?


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Quote:
You know that Stationary ranged attacks are MMO standard, right?

Have you played World of Warcraft? I assume you understand or know of the term "Kiting".

Goblin Squad Member

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DeciusBrutus wrote:


1. Have a duel between the wizard in wizard armor and the wizard in heavy armor.
2. Sorry, the abyssal thermostat doesn't go that low. Light armor is for speed and stealth, not melee combat.
3. Fair point, but they work enough now to be useful enough.
4. You know that Stationary ranged attacks are MMO standard, right?

1) Have you done this?

2) I beg to differ, the speed you speak of is in melee, not just running across an open field
3) not really, too many do nothing
4) No, they are not

Goblin Squad Member

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One of the oldest forms of kiting involved stationary ranged magical attacks. I want to say kiting was invented in Everquest but I am sure some old geezer will prove me wrong and say he was doing it already in Gemstone or whatever. :)

In EQ, casters had to be at a complete standstill before they could fire off a Spell. So druids and Wizards and such kited by creating distance to the mob, then stop and cast, rinse and repeat. If you moved even the slightest your spell would be interrupted.

Rangers in EQ however could move and fire their bow. So only spell casting was stationary.

I remember that in Vanguard you were actually allowed to move slowly while firing off a spell. After Everquest this felt very innovative. :D

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
Quote:
You know that Stationary ranged attacks are MMO standard, right?
Have you played World of Warcraft? I assume you understand or know of the term "Kiting".

EQ, Ryzom, DF:UW all reduce mobility to varying degrees when making ranged attacks.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan has said multiple times that EE is not Beta.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

sspitfire1 wrote:

Keep in mind that "From day 1" for the full game is not until early 2016.

EE is a paid Beta, so the quality should be solid; but it is also a true beta. Many of the things you listed will be far from final for many months to come. Improved, maybe, but not final.

Not to speak for Ryan, but he has stated multiple times that he expects many players with paid accounts to not start active play in Beta until some months into EE.

How many times will you continue to say such nonsense ?

Firstly, you don't seem to understand what he is talking about. He wants to be in from day 1, because he doesn't want an XP gap with other players. So 2016 is BS, since XP will be accumulated, whatever your opinion is, at the beginning of EE.

And secondly EE is not a beta, RYAN SAID SO. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rijk?When-will-the-Kickstarter-people-finally- get#4

Ryan Dancey wrote:

@TClifford:

On Monday (barring delays) you will be able to play in the Alpha. Have fun!

The Alpha is scheduled to end on the 25th and Early Enrollment is scheduled to begin on the 25th. If you have Early Enrollment access (and it sounds like you do), you'll be able to play on the first day of Early Enrollment (if you want to).

You can verify your Enrollment status by logging in to gobliworks.com and clicking the account link (it's right below the Pathfinder Online logo and it's in the form "username account". You'll see your enrollment status on the information page.

There is no "beta". We should not have used that term in the Reward description but by the time we decided it was a mistake to have used that term it was too late to change the Reward text. Early Enrollment is not a "beta test" in the classic sense. It is instead "early access". The game will be a "minimum viable product" - a complete, playable game that has all the basic features required to play. It will however be the first iteration of those features and some non-essential features are still being developed. You, and the other Early Enrollees will have a chance to help us create Pathfinder Online through our Crowdforging intiatives.

If you don't want to play the game at this time you do not have to begin using the game time you received from the Kickstarter and can wait as long as you wish before you do use that time. The game will continuously iterate and become more complex as time progresses.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Deleted my posts as I wasn't aware of that Ryan had changed the label.

Guess then it's his issue if people expect a lot more because it isn't a beta but a MVP.

Edit: thanks Adoucet for he link.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

You have the limited-time ability to buy XP for your OE character. Simply pay the subscription fee and whenever you decide the game is ready you will have accumulated as much XP as anyone else. Plus, since you won't have to "waste" any on short-term optimizations like having to pick up several refining skills for achievement points or needing gathering skills to support early economy development.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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DeciusBrutus wrote:
You have the limited-time ability to buy XP for your OE character. Simply pay the subscription fee and whenever you decide the game is ready you will have accumulated as much XP as anyone else. Plus, since you won't have to "waste" any on short-term optimizations like having to pick up several refining skills for achievement points or needing gathering skills to support early economy development.

"Pay without playing". Good advice Decius, you should try marketing.

Goblin Squad Member

I can live with Alpha where my intended roles are broken (rogue/tanner/leatherworker) and no-one cares about fixing them because there are more important things. I could put up with a Beta where my intended roles are broken, but at least there is some attention being paid to them and they will be fixed by the end of Beta. I'm not sure going straight from Alpha to Early Enrollment with all the parts of the game I intended to do broken is something I want to do.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
Quote:
You know that Stationary ranged attacks are MMO standard, right?
Have you played World of Warcraft? I assume you understand or know of the term "Kiting".

In World of Warcraft, a common way to cancel your spell is to move. Kiting is most often done with "Instant" spells that don't require you to stand still. Most of the really high damage spells require you to stand still.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:
I can live with Alpha where my intended roles are broken (rogue/tanner/leatherworker) and no-one cares about fixing them because there are more important things. I could put up with a Beta where my intended roles are broken, but at least there is some attention being paid to them and they will be fixed by the end of Beta. I'm not sure going straight from Alpha to Early Enrollment with all the parts of the game I intended to do broken is something I want to do.

Wait... You thought that paragraph explaining why EE is not Beta meant that it was more complete than a Beta would be? Early Access is a product less complete than Beta, because Beta is Feature-complete.

The error with calling it a beta was that it set expectations too high; there will be no beta, because there will be no period of testing after PFO is feature-complete.

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
"Pay without playing". Good advice Decius, you should try marketing.

Well you can't really have it both ways. Either the XP doesn't have enough value, and you should delay joining until the play is worth while, or the XP does have enough value, in which case you should pay starting on day one and be content to start playing when it's entertaining, or the XP and play together don't have enough value and there's no point worrying about it.

Goblin Squad Member

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Trying to have it both ways is simply semantics that no one is buying (literally). If it is Early Enrollment and not beta, it is a steaming pile of crap (4/10 rating at best) vs. other games that have been released. The audacity to charge a subscription is beyond the pale. If it is a beta, who ever heard of charging a monthly subscription to beta test a game?

You can't have it both ways. You don't get the leniency of it being a beta with broken bits, and or missing functions or content. You don't get the delay in rating the game, from the moment you start charging a subscription.

Ryan is risking having PFO rated by gaming websites based in the game as it stands now 10.1). That would be a huge mistake. He may not understand it or agree with it but a website like MMORPG, can kill this game with a bad review. They can also make it become big with an 8.0+ rating.


Quote:
EQ, Ryzom, DF:UW all reduce mobility to varying degrees when making ranged attacks.

Reduced mobility != "stationary", as you originally used the term stationary, and that is what we have in game right now.

Additionally, IMHO, "EQ, Ryzom, DF:UW" do not equate to an MMO standard. WoW, and a host of asian made MMO's like Lineage or Archeage equate to the standard in my opinion because they account for the vast majority of MMO accounts playing.

Quote:
In World of Warcraft, a common way to cancel your spell is to move.

In WoW, the Ranger class could perform all of their normal attacks while running. They were, maybe still are, the "kiting" class.

Quote:
Kiting is most often done with "Instant" spells that don't require you to stand still.

That being said, it is my understanding that the PFO stationary effect on ranged attacks was done because kiting with a longbow was so amazingly effective.

-

I think it would be fine if longbow users could still make low-damage attacks while moving, and maybe only big hitting attacks they had to stay still. Sounds like a great compromise to me - why wasn't that done instead of a blanket stationary? Or heck, even just force the character into a walking speed while making ranged attacks. Or apply a malus to Ranged Attack ability while moving similar to a state like Opportunity.

So many more intuitive solutions I think. I presume the stationary thing is a placeholder, if it is, then no sense trying to argue in defense of it.

Goblin Squad Member

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It would be an error to schedule the attention of the development staff based on what prospective players believe they want. In the first place everyone has a different idea of what they want and considers themselves important. Second the elements of the system are interdependent. No one part can advance without all its related dependencies advancing as well.

Polished grass is fairly far down my personal list of priorities anyway: I'm not at all sure how it came to dominate yours unless it was merely a tool to try and heap up a molehill into a mountain.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Trying to have it both ways is simply semantics that no one is buying (literally).

I disagree. I think they can have it both ways.

Before Kickstarter, Steam Greenlight and other crowdfunding sites how often did people pay for 'early access' or beta or whatever you want to call 'not on retail shelves'? Sometimes you could get into beta automatically if you preordered, but in general you just applied and hoped for selection with no investment needed. The environment for game development is diversifying so I feel your predictions based on past projects are flawed.

Pro reviewers on metacritic type sites, no matter how they feel about the quality of a game, ultimately still respect the developer's 'release date'. If Goblinworks says it's not released yet then it isn't released. This part isn't very unique.

What is very special here, in a good way, is that this is one of the first small, crowdfunded MMOs charging for early access/enrollment/beta/nonretail.

I think review sites will be supportive. Rather than 'kill' this game I believe they will respect the innovative funding method. And even if we do see reviews that says 'this game has a long way to go before it's ready for release' that will turn into a selling point. There is a market for players who want to exploit the advantages of an environment that is both persistent and radically changing.


Takasi wrote:
There is a market for players who want to exploit the advantages of an environment that is both persistent and radically changing.

There's also a very large portion of gamers who will want nothing to do with a gaming world that's had incomplete, unbalanced, and/or changing systems "exploited" for months.

Goblin Squad Member

On which subject: Ideascale Pay to "Play" Options

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Well you can't really have it both ways. Either the XP doesn't have enough value, and you should delay joining until the play is worth while, or the XP does have enough value, in which case you should pay starting on day one and be content to start playing when it's entertaining, or the XP and play together don't have enough value and there's no point worrying about it.

I'm sure that you just convinced thousands of people that the game is great. You should open a marketing agency with Decius.

Goblin Squad Member

The take away I always took from EE and the way they sold it to us is that they would release it with the minimum amount of content needed for the game to be fun and do that well. They could manage this because the primary content was player interaction driven by meaningful PvP with gear loss.

Life is Feudal fits that description perfectly and it's incredibly fun to play. It's a good model.

Pathfinder Online has a larger amount of content than it really needs in some areas, (Dynamic escalation system as opposed to mob spawns? How many sets of armor and weapons? How many weapon types? Nearly useless auction houses?) the heart of the game is missing (Feuds? Gear loss?) and there is no single piece of content or feature I can point to as being done well while there are innumerable ones done extremely poorly.

This forum is light on the critics because few of them care enough about this title to come post dozens of times a day but just yesterday I was on TS with a high ranking member of a top 10 settlement outside the NC (I'll let them decide wether or not they wish to name themselves) and they echoed many of the comments I hear within the UNC Teamspeak.

Dissatisfaction with the state of the game. Concern about that people they refer to the alpha decide PFO isn't worth their time. Lost faith in Goblinworks and particularly in Ryan Dancey. Fears this game may never succeed. Disgust with community members who cover for all GW's faults.

This game is in serious trouble and burying our heads in the sand and saying it's all going according to plans isn't going to fix the problem. And to the people promoting this behavior just be aware, more and more people are growing disillusioned with the Ryan fandom.


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Quote:
This game is in serious trouble and burying our heads in the sand and saying it's all going according to plans isn't going to fix the problem.

There is a lot of middle ground between pretending everything is all right and being a white knight, and griefing the forums continuously to facilitate a negative perception of the game.

What the game/community really needs is for the the white knights and forum griefers to back off, and provide more room for the less vocal majority to provide constructive criticism and useful feedback to the development team.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I love how some vocal minorities always pretend to be the silencious majority.

Goblin Squad Member

Incase anyone missed it, someone posted some solid and well reasoned critisizms with some possible solutions. Fanboys said "everything is fine we don't need this." Critics pushed back against fanboys.

Critics now called forum griefers and call for solutions put out.

If you want solutions re-read the OP or listen to the many voices saying this game isn't ready for any form of paid release.


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Just to be clear, Andius, I agree with pretty much most of things you talk about.

I'm referring to people like Audoucet when I describe a forum griefer. He has, in not so many words, stated it is his goal to drag down PFO and GW since he can't get a refund.

That being said, I don't think "holding their feet to the fires" (the dev team) really accomplishes what you think it will. As a programmer, I can tell you that after working 60+ hour weeks, having a client send me a nasty gram really saps my desire to work on the project.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Don't get me too wrong; I don't think EE should start, but because I think that player looting, feuds/wars, and buy orders are all part of Minimum Viable Product.

I'm not in charge of making that decision, so I have to roll with it if it doesn't go the way I expect it to. I do think that unfinished features not part of MVP shouldn't delay the start, and there's no reason to expect feats to be able to be sold back unless they are removed from the game entirely.

Goblin Squad Member

While I personally don't think "EE" should be launched yet, instead November be a continuation of Alpha with the start of WoT as planned.

With that said, and leaving out my own personal view I see things according to the following steps:

1) GW have their own schedule and standards in place that will dictate whether they keep that schedule or change it. So all we can do really is wait for their decisions at each step.

2) The individual player can only react to the decisions that come down from Ryan. And each individual player will have to make their own decision on whether to play or not play. The reasons will vary from person to person no doubt.

3) adjustments, fixes and new features will be added over time to PFO.

4) Again the individual player will decide whether to play or not play after #3 happens.

To me its that simple, maybe not to all others and I don't speak for anyone but myself. However, I think if we keep the outlook this simple we won't have to struggle with how to define or justify step in the process.

Many can't do that, and I suspect the forums would be a bit boring if you did. It is amusing to see you guys run in circles with the same thoughts thread after thread :)

Goblin Squad Member

Leithlen wrote:
There's also a very large portion of gamers who will want nothing to do with a gaming world that's had incomplete, unbalanced, and/or changing systems "exploited" for months.

Perhaps. No one will be certain until time has passed what the state of the game will be. New changes will provide new opportunities for players who start and take a different path of development. When the elevation is constantly changing it's hard to know exactly what is and isn't the ground floor.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:

Just to be clear, Andius, I agree with pretty much most of things you talk about.

I'm referring to people like Audoucet when I describe a forum griefer. He has, in not so many words, stated it is his goal to drag down PFO and GW since he can't get a refund.

No, my only goal is for the videogame industry to stop considering us like s*@&. If GW drowns, the next ones will do better. Or they will get rid of Ryan, and PFO will have a chance.

Oh, and by the way, if I wanted just to grief, I would say that the game is great, and they shouldn't delay EE.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Trying to have it both ways is simply semantics that no one is buying (literally).

Nope. Adoucette was talking about people getting in on day 1 because they don't want to miss out on XP even though the game sucks. When Decius said (effectively) You can do that, he replied (implied) that it was bad advice.

Either it's worth doing, or it's bad advice. It can't be both. He really can't have it both ways.

That doesn't say people can't continue to p*ss and moan about it. Every person has the option to complain or to walk away from a deal they feel is bad, but no one is under any obligation to feel sorry for whatever decision those people make.

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