Back me up here, folks -- this has become a major showdown between myself and the GM of our local campaign.
Playing a non-standard race (just like always), and I know the GM was soured by this from the get-go. As a result, he's being pissy as usual and trying to put the kibosh on everything cool that I can think of for my character to be able to do. Lame!
So here's the sitch: I'm picking my two traits, and one of them is going to be Adopted. GM rules that Adopted only gives me the OPTION of spending my OTHER trait on a trait from a race not my own. In other words, I have to spend BOTH of my traits to get ONE race trait from a race that isn't my own.
OK, I'm interested in keeping the peace and respecting this guy's rulings. Fine. I don't kick about it and just roll with it.
Next thing you know, he's giving me guff about my choice of race trait. I chose to be raised by humans and to select their race trait of Bonus Feat (I need it for my build). He insists that that's not the kind of trait that Adopted gives you. I point to the core rule book where it's clearly listed under Human Racial TRAITS.
I'm obviously correct but this guy just won't let it go. He's being completely unreasonable and not only has he insisted that I cannot take Bonus Feat, but that I'm "locked in" to his weaksauce interpretation of Adopted because I agreed I was taking it for "flavor" reasons only and he's sick of everyone "powergaming".
That's right -- I can't change my traits! I'm stuck with either throwing a trait away or wasting the other trait on one of the human traits from the back of the APG.
How ridiculous is this? The RAW is obviously in my favor and he's pitching a fit because he can.
He's right that you can't pick Bonus Feat, that is a racial trait an not a race trait.
You are wrong. He is right.
RAW is not quite in your favor.
Your GM is right. Race traits are not Racial Traits. You cannot select the Human bonus feat with Adopted. You can't pick anything listed under a race's racial description.
I know, terrible naming on the part of PF.
Small defence - the adopted gives you a Race trait, not a Racial Trait. The first is a trait that only your adopted race gives you, the other is an actual Racial trait from the race description.
So your GM has the right of it there.
But my read of Adopted is that picking the Adopted trait allows you to use the "adopted" trait slot to pick your adopted trait, allowing your second trait to be normal. I don't think the intent was take this trait and use your second trait to pick one from APG. You should have two traits, your adopted human one from the APG, and another trait.
But he's the GM and it's his game.
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Honestly, it sounds like you two are not good matches for each other. I would politely suggest to you to find another game, for both of your sakes and for the sake of the other party members who might have to deal with this squabbling.
Mhoram is right about that. The 'drawback' of Adopted is the bit where you can't take two traits from the same category, so it locks out other options for Social and Race.
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Back me up here, folks -- this has become a major showdown between myself and the GM of our local campaign.
Playing a non-standard race (just like always), and I know the GM was soured by this from the get-go. As a result, he's being pissy as usual and trying to put the kibosh on everything cool that I can think of for my character to be able to do. Lame!
So here's the sitch: I'm picking my two traits, and one of them is going to be Adopted. GM rules that Adopted only gives me the OPTION of spending my OTHER trait on a trait from a race not my own. In other words, I have to spend BOTH of my traits to get ONE race trait from a race that isn't my own.
OK, I'm interested in keeping the peace and respecting this guy's rulings. Fine. I don't kick about it and just roll with it.
Next thing you know, he's giving me guff about my choice of race trait. I chose to be raised by humans and to select their race trait of Bonus Feat (I need it for my build). He insists that that's not the kind of trait that Adopted gives you. I point to the core rule book where it's clearly listed under Human Racial TRAITS.
I'm obviously correct but this guy just won't let it go. He's being completely unreasonable and not only has he insisted that I cannot take Bonus Feat, but that I'm "locked in" to his weaksauce interpretation of Adopted because I agreed I was taking it for "flavor" reasons only and he's sick of everyone "powergaming".
That's right -- I can't change my traits! I'm stuck with either throwing a trait away or wasting the other trait on one of the human traits from the back of the APG.
How ridiculous is this? The RAW is obviously in my favor and he's pitching a fit because he can.
Your GM is right.
Adopted only allows you to take a trait from another race. It does take both traits to get a single trait from another race.
There is a difference between race traits and racial traits. Race traits are traits in the usual sense of traits. Racial traits are best described as alternate racial features. Bonus feat is a racial trait, which means it is not a trait in the normal sense of the word.
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That's... just stupid. If Adopted worked in that way, why would anyone use it?
If it didn't then there would be no reason for race traits because anyone could take them.
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I would have laughed you out of the room with that suggestion. Your GM is absolutely correct.
If you want a bonus feat so much
1) play a human!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2) Persuade the GM to let you design a custom race and give it a bonus feat
3) Write it on your character sheet and hope no one counts them
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You can't use Adopted to get a bonus feat.
Adopted: You were adopted and raised by someone not of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own. As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and society, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents' race.
Human Racial Traits
Race Traits aren't Racial Traits, believe it or not. Race Traits refers to the Trait type of Race as seen in the Advanced Player's Guide.
You cannot use Adopted to get the human bonus feat. Traits are meant to be half a feat, so if you find a way to use traits to get a feat, you're likely doing something wrong :)
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"Bonus feat" is not a racial trait. "Trait" refers to this:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits
Either you're reading things wrong or you're trying to cheat.
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Pardon me for saying this, but your initial post reeks of bad attitude. Pathfinder and D&D in general is a social cooperation game not an adversarial one. You should be bending over backwards to avoid conflict with your DM.
Regarding your questions:
- the "adopted" trait gives you a race trait right off the bat, in addition to your second trait. But...
- race traits and racial traits are not the same thing and it's unfortunate that they share the word "trait", which only generated confusion. Racial traits, meaning those things listed on the description of each race, are not things you can scoop up while playing some other nonstandard special snowflake race. With a very few exceptions, you have to actually be of that race to get them.
My advice would be to start play with something a little closer to standard. In the campaign I just started, I chose an elf wizard. Sure, I could have been some funky shadow-spawned or winged or other offbeat race, with traits like Wayang spellhunter and such, simply to increase my special snowflake abilities. That didn't fly for me.
Or if you really, really want to play that race, then do something else in the character creation process to assuage your DM's well-founded reticence and be some class that he can feel comfortable with.
I mean, your DM *could* have said "CRB only", but didn't. Give him some slack, and show some respect, both for the DM and for the other players.
Sorry if that sounds "preachy" (yes, I know, it rahter does, doesn't it) but I have considerable experience with a certain type of player, and have always tried to talk things through and reach mutual consensus because hey, we're all playing this game to have fun, together.
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No offense, but even if RAW was on your side (which is kinda dubiously worded) you'd still be in the wrong.
It's the DM's perogitive to nip Munchkining in the bud and even if he broke RAW this is far less damaging to a character concept than a lot of things DM's usually ban, like guns, drows, and synth summoners. Hell, my DM banned humans once.
Again, I don't wanna put you down here but I think everyone at your table (you especially) will benefit from you being the bigger person and dropping it.
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What everyone else said: there is a difference between race traits and racial traits. Somewhat interestingly, your GM has stumbled onto a reasonable houserule, though: since a trait is worth approximately half a feat, I might allow someone to forego both traits to get a feat.
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First: Your GM is right about the adopted trait only giving you the option to take another races trait. Granted this is an often highly debatable topic and there are people on both sides of it, but your GM is right this time (refer to #3 as to why)
Second: Your GM is right again. Race Trait and Racial Trait are two VERY different things with similar wording. One refers to the traits you automatically receive for selecting your race, such as the bonus feat from human, the other refers to traits only selectable by a certain race, such as the Helpful trait for halflings.
Third: Your GM is right again...not for any particular reason this time but it's just a generally good thing to keep in mind. The GM is always right! End of story! If you don't like how he GM's then offer to GM in his place and if the group won't let you, go start your own.
Fourth: Do not use the Rules Forums as a means of teaming up on your GM, this stinks of foul sportsmanship and whininess and I can safely say I am very glad to not be in your group, because the kind of crap you are pulling here would have made me quit your group long ago.
Fifth: Hats off to your GM for making the correct rational decisions in the face of a whiny, backstabbing, rules-ignorant, munchkin. Please thank him for me, the next time you see him.
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Ok, now for something actually constructive instead of ranting about ranting. :p
As mentioned, there is a difference between Race traits and Racial traits. Confusing, but that's the case. Race traits are a category of the various traits that you can select (such as Combat, Magic, Faith, Religion, Social, etc). Racial Traits are abilities available to specific races.
When you select "Adopted" as a Social Trait you immediately get to choose a Race trait from the race you've selected. So on your character sheet you will actually have 3 traits listed. Something akin to:
1st Trait (anything but Social or Race)
Adopted (Social) [2nd Trait (Race)]
As an example, I have a PFS character whose traits are:
Fate's Favored (Faith)
Adopted (Social) [Helpful (Halfling)]
So hopefully that clarifies things a bit.
I can understand the frustration of feeling like the GM is just having a power-trip. But this is probably not the best place to vent. It doesn't usually come across as you might intend. Hopefully you guys will be able to work something out, change up who's GMing, or whatever.
Good luck. :)
I second Lifat's suggestion. I've commented on the other one. Not going to repeat it here.
think about it.
a Trait is a HALF-FEAT, and you think, somewhere in the rules, there is the ability to take a half feat and trade it for a full feat?
looking at it from that angle would automatically give you your answer right there, no.
However, If I was your GM and you wanted to ask me to trade both your traits for a feat, and you had a good idea, and/or reason in the back story for this, I would probably allow it.
Also note: I don't generally allow "wild" races in my game. So you're non standard race would probably get a no from the get go (I have been known to allow Drow and Changelings before… but it's limited)
You're both wrong. You are wrong for thinking you can take a human racial trait (which ought to be called racial features really) with the adopted trait.
Your GM is wrong from assuming you are required to use the second available trait to gain the race trait from adopted.
Benefit: As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and society, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents' race.
You get a race trait, not a racial trait, and you do not have to use your other trait to gain this one.
Kestral287 is correct that you are both incorrect it isn't a hair-splitting difference between a race trait like Eyes of the Sun and racial traits like the Human Bonus Feat or +2 to an ability score; it has even been stated by the developers that it doesn't apply to the things that you get just for being that race.
Your GM is also wrong you trade the Adopted trait for a race trait; or another way of looking at it is that it gives you three traits Adopted, the race trait you select, and the other non race or social trait.
Well, since both of you were incorrect, why not talk to the GM and see if you can trade in both of your traits for a feat? Since 1 trait equals half a feat, maybe if you give up both of them, he'll let you take a full feat.
What did you want to take with your bonus feat? If it is something to do with your background, it might go better. Traits are supposed to be used to fluff out your background, after all.
The GM was "correct" insofar that when asked about adoptive trait he said how he was going to run it. You have the option then to go with the modified option or take something different or not play.
He wasn't forced to keep it at this point. It was after he chose to take the trait that the GM is "forcing" him to keep that trait choice. Yes the OP picked something illegal for that, so he's able to change that illegal option into a legal option.
WHY does he need to keep the trait? Because the OP said he was adopted for FLAVOR and not POWER. So now that the POWER is gone, the OP is wanting a change, even though he was taking that trait for "FLAVOR". Also he didn't clear this choice with the GM, And it's annoying as a GM when a character goes and does illegal things without asking the GM. Then the GM needing to correct it. And then the player complaining and making a big deal about it, probably ruining the session.
The OP is pitching a fit because the GM is enforcing the rules(about what a race trait is) and his houserule(of what adoptive does). And this weakened is "flavor" option. Which flavor is qualified. Not getting a bonus feat doesn't mean you weren't raised by humans.
Well, since both of you were incorrect, why not talk to the GM and see if you can trade in both of your traits for a feat? Since 1 trait equals half a feat, maybe if you give up both of them, he'll let you take a full feat.
What did you want to take with your bonus feat? If it is something to do with your background, it might go better. Traits are supposed to be used to fluff out your background, after all.
These traits are the Two traits that PFS gives you lv1, he didn't take the feat extra traits. So saying he's limited to traits and can't trade them for a feat is what I'd rule too.
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Everyone in this thread has printed out how your interpretation of the Trait rules is incorrect, so I won't dwell on that.
Instead, I'll say that you should save yourself a whole bunch of future grief and gracefully bow out of this game. Unless you are best buddies with the other players (you obviously aren't with the GM) or this is the only game available to you, get out now. In fact, the GM would be doing himself a favor to uninvited you for the same reasons. If you guys can't get through character creation with butting heads, the game is going to be a complete butthurtfest.
-Skeld
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OP both you and your GM were both incorrect in part. But you seem to have a very bad very entitled personality about you.
You are wrong about being able to select a race trait as a racial trait, it is not splitting hairs. I can understand being confused because the wording is similar, but your attitude and presentation leaves a lot to be desired.
Honestly, if I were your GM and I found this, at this point I would just kick you from the group because of your attitude.
Unfortunately for you, as everyone says, the GM is right about the rules, though I don't really see the point of locking a player into a non-functional choice. On the other hand, I don't see how "I need it for my build" could indicate a flavor choice.
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I doubt he's locking the player into an empty feat. I bet he's allowing the OP to pick an actual human race trait instead of the illegal bonus feat.
But even if he is stuck without traits. They aren't going to RUIN his character. I've not been allowed to start with traits in my last 3 campaigns. In 1 I picked the feat extra traits cause there was a trait I wanted. In the others my players still worked fine, and wouldn't have been overshadowed had the other characters had traits and mine not.
I know as a GM I dislike when a player says they are going to be a non-standard race, and play it like it's a normal character. I've even said core races only and had people show up game day with a vanara and a tiefling. And that puts the GM in a bind and is not cool, do you make everyone else wait while the offender rebuilds as a core race? or do you let it slide this time to get the game started? And enough of that going on and a GM will really start to dislike it.
Taking the Adopted trait does NOT use up your second trait, as you say, however, a race trait is not a racial trait.
i looked back on a lot of his posts, man, i don't like a lot of his posts.
Well, since both of you were incorrect, why not talk to the GM and see if you can trade in both of your traits for a feat? Since 1 trait equals half a feat, maybe if you give up both of them, he'll let you take a full feat.
What did you want to take with your bonus feat? If it is something to do with your background, it might go better. Traits are supposed to be used to fluff out your background, after all.
yes, I said that above…that would fall under a *Creative DM*
especially since traits are actually an optional rule, and the DM doesn't have to allow them at all.