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Hi all,
I often see the Chaotic Evil alignment stereotyped as rampaging demons, frenzied orcs, or ravenous undead. Personally, I've always been interested in characters that evoke a different kind of CE. The kind that can plan, scheme, interact in public, and manipulate people. Behavior that you might more readily associate with a more lawful organization, but carried out with chaotic twists and spontaneity. Can you think of some examples of this controlled CE in popular fiction? Here's my attempt.
The Joker (The Dark Knight movie) - His short-term interactions often fit into the crazy-CE stereotype, but his schemes are detailed and cunning. He must spend a lot of time planning and preparing, not to mention avoiding capture.
Petyr Baelish/Littlefinger (Game of Thrones) - I first thought he was an excellent example. He did an excellent monologue on chaos and opportunity. Though I'm starting to think he may be more similar to NE.
Can you think of any others?
-Your typical bully: Pushes others around and uses violence or the threat of violence to get his way.
-A typical evil thief: Looks for the easiest targets and takes what he wants from them.
-The quick and dirty opportunist: Doesn't really matter who gets hurt in the caper as long as they can make off with the goods. Often works in a loose association of similar minded criminals since they don't trust each other enough to follow anyone's authority. They don't double cross each other either, not because of any 'code' though some may call it that 'pirate's code' and all that; but rather out of a realization that if they betray another and get found out they are as good as dead, and probably not in a nice way.
Petyr Baelish/Littlefinger (Game of Thrones) - I first thought he was an excellent example. He did an excellent monologue on chaos and opportunity. Though I'm starting to think he may be more similar to NE.
I'm actually playing a VERY Littlefinger inspired Dhampir right now in a CotCT game (charlatan rogue does wonders) right now playing as true neutral.
I actually really wanted to play a chaotic evil character in WotR who was just very attached to his home in Kanabras
but alas with paladins that auto attack anything evil around every corner it's a little hard. (this guy had no plan or desire for redemption)
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How about the Mortimer and Randolph Duke from Trading Places? Seems rather Chaotic Evil to me, manipulating a person's life on a bet. There are lots of other examples of someone acting out of selfish greed without care for what harm they cause others.
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a focused chaotic evil, I would say is someone who is self-motivated and thus will completely ignore laws/traditions he doesn't care about and will obviously do heinous crimes if it suits him. My campaign has a chaotic evil character trying to become a lich to gain a better mastery and force a resurrection of someone who is not accepting resurrection spells.
He is digging up graves to inspect decayed bodies currently (he's level 2 so not much power going on) and thus is both interested in unlife but is also breaking several traditions to bury the dead and not disturb them.
he doesn't play insane, he plays uncaring of others and focused. the rest of the party doesn't realize he's chaotic evil yet.
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I think you are confusing intelligence and imagination with chaos. Doing something no one else understands is not chaotic. If I am smart enough to come up with schemes that no one else understand that does not make me chaotic, that makes me a genius.
Chaos is all about doing what you want. Chaotic evil is evil without restraint of any kind. You do what you want; when you want unless someone stronger stops you.
I think you are confusing intelligence and imagination with chaos. Doing something no one else understands is not chaotic. If I am smart enough to come up with schemes that no one else understand that does not make me chaotic, that makes me a genius.
Chaos is all about doing what you want. Chaotic evil is evil without restraint of any kind. You do what you want; when you want unless someone stronger stops you.
not necessarily, you can still be privy to the advantages of being undiscovered, and thus restrain yourself.
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If you want to know how a Chaotic Evil organization would work without being totally insane - just look at modern gangs - Bloods/Cryts/Hell's Angels etc. (watch that Gangland show :P) Though i'd say that more 'organized crime' such as portrayed in The Godfather would be NE as a whole, though many of the low level criminals are likely CE.
Chaotic Evil organizations are about the leader ruling through fear and personality as opposed to a specific system. They might have some systems in place, but the system is in no way the reason people follow said leader.
Chaotic evil characters can restrain themselves if they want to, but it is their choice. To have any alignment besides true neutral you have to have at least some intelligence, chaotic evil is no exception. They are able to recognize that their actions have consequences and act accordingly. A chaotic character who wants something will generally take it unless there is an advantage to doing otherwise. He could even give it as a gift to someone else if it would benefit him. Chaotic evil is no more stupid than lawful good. Alignment and intelligence have nothing to do with each other.
Raistlin Majere
I don't believe Raistlin was CE, but I am sure that debate could rage on forever.
If you want to know how a Chaotic Evil organization would work without being totally insane - just look at modern gangs - Bloods/Cryts/Hell's Angels etc. (watch that Gangland show :P) Though i'd say that more 'organized crime' such as portrayed in The Godfather would be NE as a whole, though many of the low level criminals are likely CE.
Chaotic Evil organizations are about the leader ruling through fear and personality as opposed to a specific system. They might have some systems in place, but the system is in no way the reason people follow said leader.
i feel like shifting your alignments over one to lawful.
godfather levels of organizations are steeped in tradition and respect. Things only happen to empower the group as a whole and they like to make sure deals remain lucrative and stable with those they can trust. They really feel like they have a large connection with lawful perspectives.
Raistlin Majere
Belkar in Order of the Stick
Danearys Tartagen's brother
Agent Ward's mentor on agents of shield
Raistlin was lawful evil if I remember correctly.
Viserys Targaryen was an idiot who sucked at manipulating people. He got molten gold poured over his head when he pushed. Most of the time people were manipulating him without him realizing it.
Garrett is also lawful evil not chaotic. He has long range plans no one understands but is willing to sacrifice anything to achieve them. He is HYDRA which is the ultimate lawful evil.
Why is it important that the character is CE?
And if you Think the Joker isent crazy well then i Think you May need to rethink what crazy is.
Viserys Targaryen wasn't evil, he was just an idiot.
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If you want to know how a Chaotic Evil organization would work without being totally insane - just look at modern gangs - Bloods/Cryts/Hell's Angels etc. (watch that Gangland show :P) Though i'd say that more 'organized crime' such as portrayed in The Godfather would be NE as a whole, though many of the low level criminals are likely CE.
Chaotic Evil organizations are about the leader ruling through fear and personality as opposed to a specific system. They might have some systems in place, but the system is in no way the reason people follow said leader.
i feel like shifting your alignments over one to lawful.
godfather levels of organizations are steeped in tradition and respect. Things only happen to empower the group as a whole and they like to make sure deals remain lucrative and stable with those they can trust. They really feel like they have a large connection with lawful perspectives.
As opposed to chaotic organizationsgroups, that do not like deals to remain lucrative? I think you're drifting into Chaotic == Stupid/Crazy again.
The Mafia likes to think of itself as Lawful, and that's the way it's been portrayed in a number of mass-media productions, most notably The Godfather. A more realistic version of the Mafia, as seen in Goodfellas and Donnie Brasco would better support a NE alignment -- honor is nice, but only once you've obtained the money.
As an example, if there's an argument between two made guys over splitting the loot from a job,... a lawful organization would have rules in place to handle it, precisely because this kind of argument is bad for business. In the actual Mafia, the usual way it's handled is both guys take it to the skipper, and he takes all the loot, because he's the skipper. A more serious example is the aftermath of the Lufthansa robbery (portrayed in Goodfellas), where Burke decided to whack the rest of the crew instead of paying them off as promised. This is really bad for business, as it scared enough people that one of the guys walked into the Federal Witness Protection program -- Burke and his capo both ended up dying in jail.
If you want to know how a Chaotic Evil organization would work without being totally insane - just look at modern gangs - Bloods/Cryts/Hell's Angels etc. (watch that Gangland show :P) Though i'd say that more 'organized crime' such as portrayed in The Godfather would be NE as a whole, though many of the low level criminals are likely CE.
Chaotic Evil organizations are about the leader ruling through fear and personality as opposed to a specific system. They might have some systems in place, but the system is in no way the reason people follow said leader.
i feel like shifting your alignments over one to lawful.
godfather levels of organizations are steeped in tradition and respect. Things only happen to empower the group as a whole and they like to make sure deals remain lucrative and stable with those they can trust. They really feel like they have a large connection with lawful perspectives.
As opposed to chaotic
organizationsgroups, that do not like deals to remain lucrative? I think you're drifting into Chaotic == Stupid/Crazy again.The Mafia likes to think of itself as Lawful, and that's the way it's been portrayed in a number of mass-media productions, most notably The Godfather. A more realistic version of the Mafia, as seen in Goodfellas and Donnie Brasco would better support a NE alignment -- honor is nice, but only once you've obtained the money.
As an example, if there's an argument between two made guys over splitting the loot from a job,... a lawful organization would have rules in place to handle it, precisely because this kind of argument is bad for business. In the actual Mafia, the usual way it's handled is both guys take it to the skipper, and he takes all the loot, because he's the skipper. A more serious example is the aftermath of the Lufthansa robbery (portrayed in Goodfellas), where Burke decided to whack the rest of the crew instead of paying...
chaotic evil would be more inclined to backstab and take over his industry(because a chaotic evil either implicitly dislikes relying on deals or simply wants to make sure that everything is "ordered" under him), while lawful evil, would like to keep deals going and keep friends. though considering the the amount of backstabbery that happens I suppose NE does fit, i guess they just like to play LE but will go CE when push comes to shove, making them on whole NE.
and yes i'm talking about the stylized mafia just like we're talking about stylized paladins.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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When writing the CE drow noble houses, Salvatore said the Godfather was a big inspiration. Take that as you will.
The machinations of the old-school demon lords are also good examples of a more thoughtful CE, in particular, Graz'zt. See this post about Demogorgon.
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I would say Iago is the archetypal CE you are talking about. He is an individualist who is a master schemer and manipulator, can function in a hierarchy if that suits his purposes but has no sense of honor, lives to create chaos and ruin other people's lives ("motiveless malignity"). Unlike the typical lawful evil, he has no interest in power. Being at the top of a hierarchy wouldn't interest him.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'll have to look into some of these characters.
Regarding the mafia discussion, I think that is a good example of how law/chaos can be really hard to distinguish. I have characters I try to stick an alignment on sometimes and in some ways they seem strongly both. But that gets into deeper alignment issues outside the scope of this thread.
Chaotic evil is no more stupid than lawful good. Alignment and intelligence have nothing to do with each other.
And that's what this thread is about, finding examples of smart CE characters :p People often think CE = chaotic stupid, kind of like how some people think someone Lawful Good is automatically foolish.
Raistlin Majere
Belkar in Order of the Stick
Danearys Tartagen's brother
Agent Ward's mentor on agents of shield
I don't know if I'd call Belakr a good example here :P
Petyr Baelish/Littlefinger (Game of Thrones) - I first thought he was an excellent example. He did an excellent monologue on chaos and opportunity. Though I'm starting to think he may be more similar to NE.I'm actually playing a VERY Littlefinger inspired Dhampir right now in a CotCT game (charlatan rogue does wonders) right now playing as true neutral.
I actually really wanted to play a chaotic evil character in WotR who was just very attached to his home in Kanabras
** spoiler omitted **
but alas with paladins that auto attack anything evil around every corner it's a little hard. (this guy had no plan or desire for redemption)
You should try talking with your GM to see if you can make it work. You wouldn't detect until 5th level, but you'd have to be sure to have something by then. The Undetectable Alignment spell (or nondetection/misdirection). There's more expensive options (Ring of mind shielding comes to mind), but an option I like is Angelskin leather. You detect evil as a creature 10HD less, so it'll work for quite a while and costs as much as mithral. I'm looking for some for my Way of the Wicked assassin.
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I would say Iago is the archetypal CE you are talking about. He is an individualist who is a master schemer and manipulator, can function in a hierarchy if that suits his purposes but has no sense of honor, lives to create chaos and ruin other people's lives ("motiveless malignity"). Unlike the typical lawful evil, he has no interest in power. Being at the top of a hierarchy wouldn't interest him.
Jafar, from Disney's Aladdin may be another example. While he's happy to attempt to use a hierarchy to get what he wants (basically, the ability to fulfill his whims), he's also perfectly happy to throw the hierarchy overboard (along with the plan) if that's what it takes.... witness his willingness to give up being Sultan when he sees a possibility of becoming an omnipotent magical Genie himself.
Alex, from A Clockwork Orange, as well. While he's into random violence for the fun of it, he's also very good at playing the game and lying to people such as the school guidance counsellor or his parents.
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Ooh, Clockwork Orange is a great example! Can't believe I didn't think of that.
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Ramsay Snow might be another one.
Ramsay Snow... hate that guy. Another great example though!
Two good of examples of chaotic evil from movies at least are Bonnie and Clyde and pulp fiction. The main characters in both movie where cold blooded killers when it was in their interest and had no respect for the law.
Your question runs into the standard alignment problem of the difference between by-the-numbers symbolic alignment and real complexities of human emotion and behavior. A man who foments a civil war, destroys every major power structure and brings chaos across the land can be ENTIRELY lawful if every step was meticulously plotted, planned, and prepared as a way of "clearing away obstacles" to his own rise to power. The Rakdos Clan of demon-worshipping chaos magicians who rebel against all authority not only help establish peace (by being a common enemy) but are incredibly predictable in their crimes. They are a great aid to law and order by opposing it very badly.
Hell, the Joker is completely batpoo crazy and his "adventures in crime" are one long list of predictable murders and obvious plots that end in stupid captures.
But anybody who isn't ridiculously regimented can be called chaotic. From the easily-bored Red Dragon with a taste for watching civil wars to the Fleshcrafting Necromantic Artist. The key is that they do what they want, and they don't really bother with rules.
And consider, you say "chatoic evil without the crazy" but your first thought is The Joker, who is undeniably as crazy as they come. His insanity is in his love of chaos and evil and bloodshed, even though he can plot and plan and think.
You're correct, though I intended this to be a more narrow exercise to highlight CE characters that play against the stereotype. I'd rather avoid the alignment bucket-of-worms.
I know the Joker isn't the best example (though to be fair I did say I'm coming from the perspective of the Dark Night movie), but it was late and I couldn't come up with much else.
He does serve the purpose of tearing down the CE stereotype. I often see CE described as reckless and self-destructive, but it can be so much more compelling. That's why I mentioned him and tried to explain that. He's 'crazy' but doesn't run around town shooting people until he's put down (as many might expect from a CE enemy it seems).
Really though, Ramsay Snow and Clockwork Orange are excellent examples of what I'm looking for. I'd edit them into the top post if I could.
Thanks for the great suggestions so far!
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To demonstrate my point, here's another good example of a controlled, meticulous Chaotic Evil: Hannibal Lecter. Calm, collected, hella creepy. Still 'crazy,' but not in the colloquial sense.
While I'm here, a good opposite example (of the crazy-CE I'm trying to avoid) would be Hannibal's opposing serial killer in Silence of the Lambs: Buffalo Bill. He manages to avoid detection, but he's bats*&% crazy and doesn't plan much beyond his current goal, and can't deal with change or resistance from his captives. Even his social interactions are barely passable and awkward.
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Good villains like I always say, have a good thing in common...they have a great motivation. Same goes for LE, NE and CE, without a good motivation, they end up pretty lame.
Kratos from God of War, after killing his family with his own hands, blame the gods of Olympus and want to kill all of them. Morrigan from Dragon Age, who while obviously evil, valued personal freedom above all else and can't talk much about her main objective without spoilers.
Charles Manson would be a real-life example of the character I'm talking about. Calculating, elusive, but utterly uncaring and manipulative. Hard to catch even when you know he's guilty, and obsessed with destroying/remaking the world.
I agree the motivation can make the villian, in the broadest sense.
Good villains like I always say, have a good thing in common...they have a great motivation. Same goes for LE, NE and CE, without a good motivation, they end up pretty lame.
Kratos from God of War, after killing his family with his own hands, blame the gods of Olympus and want to kill all of them. Morrigan from Dragon Age, who while obviously evil, valued personal freedom above all else and can't talk much about her main objective without spoilers.
morrigan doesn't really come off as evil, she just sort of... hates people, but she doesn't want them all to die. she's been hiding from people her whole life and hates it.
if anything she considers most of humanity evil to her.
definitely feels neutral to occasional good acts.
Yes. So what are some good examples of higher-thinking Chaotic Evil in fiction? We've had some great suggestions so far.
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My chaotic evil character is a hedonistic brawler that really loves to fight. He fought (and killed) many a noblemen because he just doesn't like nobles (though he came from that background himself) and generally found more ease and enjoyment from punching his way through life. That said, he knows when to show restraint. If the outcome would be poor, he knows when to shut up. He works well within a group, too, because he knows he'll get more out of the venture if he works with the others.
Totally CE, but certainly not a raving madman.
Mello from second part of Death Note (tho i hate second part)
Psycho Mantis from Metal Gear
Mello didn't seem evil to me. Didn't he
I didn't care for the second half either though.
@Paulicus:
Don't forget that although lesser demons are fairly classically CE, the demon lords do show a degree of forbearance and planning.
I remember a character I was planning for a cancelled campaign was going to be chaotic evil. He was an Alchemist who was opposing the Tyrannical King in place.
While he would fight for a "good" cause he would do horrible things such as killing innocent allies of the King and attacking citizens in a false flag operation all the while bluffing his good "friends" into doing his bidding.
The only crazy thing about him was that he honestly believed he was the good guy in all this.
Earl from 'my name is Earl' before karma.
Also most of his friends.
I remember a character I was planning for a cancelled campaign was going to be chaotic evil. He was an Alchemist who was opposing the Tyrannical King in place.
While he would fight for a "good" cause he would do horrible things such as killing innocent allies of the King and attacking citizens in a false flag operation all the while bluffing his good "friends" into doing his bidding.
The only crazy thing about him was that he honestly believed he was the good guy in all this.
What so crazy about him thinking he was the good guy. Pol Pot and the Kmer Rouge, Mao etc all thought they where the good guy.
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One of my all-time favorite depictions of a CE character was the NPC Bishop in Neverwinter Nights 2. He was not insane, or a fiend; he did not kill and maim just for fun. In fact most of the time he was happy just to sit in a bar telling everyone else to bugger off. That said, he viewed any sort of attachment to others as a weakness, whether it be love, trust, friendship, you name it. He also was very much the "you have what you hold" type, believing that if you were not strong enough to keep someone from taking something, whether it be your belongings or your life, you did not deserve to have it to begin with. And yet he comes into the narrative because he owes one of your allies a favor, and he hates the idea of owing someone else. Some might argue that, as a chaotic character, he should have simply reneged, not caring if anyone else thought he "owed" them, and they would be correct to a point; the key that I believe to be the case here, show-casing the brilliant writing this game featured (completely unlike its laughable predecessor), was that he didn't care if someone else thought he owed, because HE thought he owed, and he HATED it because it was a tie to another person, and such ties are signs of weakness. He was therefore actually happy to finally pay off the debt and be done with it, even if he wasn't thrilled with what he was being asked to do.
So... yeah. Think I got a bit carried away there, but long story short, Bishop is a great example of a CE character that is not monstrous or insane, has actual believable backstory that would explain why he is the way he is, and manages to be an interesting and compelling character in his own right.
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Tuco from The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly is an excellent, and fairly compelling, example of a chaotic evil character.
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{. . .} Pol Pot and the Kmer Rouge, Mao etc all thought they where the good guy.
Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge are on the Chaotic side of Neutral Evil. Idi Amin and Muammar Gaddafi are more Chaotic examples of Chaotic Evil. They could and often did certainly impose harsh laws, but it was all based upon maintaining their personal power, with no serious thought to building something beyond themselves, with anything left over beyond the requirement of maintaining their own power being based upon whim, with no serious concept of due process of law; loyalty is based entirely on fear and cult of personality and/or identity politics.
To understand Chaotic Evil, it is helpful to have examples of the other types of evil. So, by way of contrast, most Communist and other fascist regimes tend to cluster around Neutral Evil (often swinging to one side or the other, with Irrisen Czarist Russia and then the Soviet Union being the flagship example) -- the rulers are still all about maintaining their personal power, but they also have the concept of creating something that can last beyond themselves; laws are still based upon maintaining their power, and the concept of due process of law is limited and inconsistent, but not totally based upon whim; loyalty has a limited but noticeable component that goes beyond fear and cult of personality and/or identity politics.
For the Lawful Evil example, a subset of repressive regimes will suffice (particularly in European past history), but the best and most current examples can be found in the corporate world: banks and insurance companies. They exist to exploit their customers and workers for the benefit of their overlords (including but not limited to major stockholders), and do everything they can to get out of their obligations to anyone else, but only within the legal framework upon which they depend for the order required to conduct their exploitation. When they do violate laws or otherwise engage in corruption (which they certainly do), this has to be done carefully and secretly so as to avoid breaking or causing some other unfavorable adjustment of the system upon which they depend, without which they cannot profit, for they depend upon law to be able to cheat.
@Paulicus:
Don't forget that although lesser demons are fairly classically CE, the demon lords do show a degree of forbearance and planning.
I would agree. Reading through the Second Darkness AP, especially the two Darklands parts, can give you some good ideas of CE without the completely insane.
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How about the Penguin in that new show, Goatham? He strikes me as a shrewd calculating villain who prefers to do horrible things on a whim. Also, his former mistress at the night club.
