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Demogorgon (And His Two Minds)


D&D 3.5/d20/OGL

Cheliax

Demogorgon has two heads -- two personalities that struggle against each other making for a greatly Chaotic Demon Lord.

But....

What if one of those two Heads -- one of those personalities -- were actually Lawful Evil to the extreme? Intelligent. Creative. Thoughtful. Wise.

Bad or Brilliant?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Which one? Aamuel or Hethradiah?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
W E Ray wrote:

Demogorgon has two heads -- two personalities that struggle against each other making for a greatly Chaotic Demon Lord.

But....

What if one of those two Heads -- one of those personalities -- were actually Lawful Evil to the extreme? Intelligent. Creative. Thoughtful. Wise.

Bad or Brilliant?

Bad... he's a demon, he's all demon, all two of them. If one of those heads were Lawful, it would have worked out his internal conflict to it's advantage.

But they never have, which is why Demogorgon has always been outmaneuvered by both his peers and the ArchDevils in the Blood War.

Cheliax

I think if one were to Houserule such a drastic change to Demogorgon it would have to be at the expense of lots of published canon from the Demonomicon and such. Including Aamuel and Hethradiah.

I'm just wondering how big a Sacred Cow the minutia of Demogorgon really is.

Cheliax

@ LazarX,

Yeah I have a feeling that will be the consensus. And you perfectly articulated the problem.

I just had this thought that it may be interesting if one of Demogorgon's personalities was much more Arch-Devil-like and thus the internal struggle for control between CE and LE were personified in Demogorgon.

But I think more people will scoff "Bad" than sigh "Brilliant".


The drastic change would likely remove him as a demon lord and catapult him into yugoloth territory as the two sides "balance" to NE in mechanical terms.

Depending on your campaign, he could potentially be the Prince of Demons, Prince of Devils and the Prince of Daemons ...

Cheliax

W E Ray wrote:

Demogorgon has two heads -- two personalities that struggle against each other making for a greatly Chaotic Demon Lord.

But....

What if one of those two Heads -- one of those personalities -- were actually Lawful Evil to the extreme? Intelligent. Creative. Thoughtful. Wise.

Bad or Brilliant?

Surely the intelligent, creative, thoughtful and wise head would be the chaotic one :)

It is an interesting idea, but demon lords are the embodiment of chaotic evil. Nothing lawful evil can thrive in the Abyss.


W E Ray wrote:
What if one of those two Heads -- one of those personalities -- were actually Lawful Evil to the extreme? Intelligent. Creative. Thoughtful. Wise.

That would indeed break canon, but why not?

If we set aside the known character of Demogorgon for a second, the Abyss is a rather hostile environment for a lawful "mind". If that personality was that creative, thoughtful and wise, it would either have won over the other personality and move out or... bring the two-headed creature exactly where it stands.

I think there are a few things you cannot cheat however, like Demogorgon being a chaotic creature and a demon prince and registering as such. I don't think he would have been able to fool his way around other demon princes and deities without raising suspicion.

Perhaps this internal conflict has driven the lawful mind insane; but then it doesn't serve you as creative, thoughtful and wise. Perhaps the lawful mind is imprisoned or even crushed by a superior chaotic mind. At any case, I think your biggest challenge is to find a way to make this creativity, thoughtfulness and wisdom come though, otherwise the idea has no pertinence regardless how cool it might be.

'findel

Taldor

+1 to Turin.

Bad rather than brilliant.

Andoran RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Aameul has always been the more calculating and, IMO, less chaotic of the two personalities. Hethradiah is more visceral and ragey.

I guess that chaotic alignment sometimes implies, but doesn't necessitate, a lack of planning or calculation or patience. Despite being chaotic, he's still INT 30ish which puts him beyond Einstein, beyond Moriarty, beyond any human mastermind. Maybe since he's chaotic that comes from flashes of intuitive brilliance rather than a more methodical rational process. But think about elves--they're generally chaotic, but they definitely have a patient, thoughtful approach to intellectual pursuits.

I think the two approaches are compatible in a being of chaotic alignment. Aameul is patience, calculation, cold seething hate. Hethradiah is immediacy, instinct, flaring rage. Aameul broods like Dagon; Hethradiah rampages like Kostchtchie. Aameul ponders, plans, and refines, but Hethradiah comes up with the epiphanies that Aameul never could.

Cheliax

I agree that even with the radical Homebrew, Demogorgon would still HAVE to be Chaotic Evil -- even if one of his two heads is (or was) LE. I think that that inner conflict would further his Chaotic essence, not contradict it.

Which Demonomicon in Dragon covers Demogorgon?

Oh, and more importantly, if there are any Demogorgon Spoilers for Savage Tide, please don't include them in here -- and for Fluff info on Demogorgon from STAP, don't say where it's coming from.

I'm still hoping -- after all these years -- to get someone else to DM it for me (The cool thing is I think I finally found a DM to run it this summer when we finish our Return to Tsojcanth Campaign. WooHoo.)

Andoran RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Dragon #357.


Interesting idea. I am not sure whether this is brilliant or bad. The problems you would run into however, and you would have to think about:

1) The lawful personality would probably be suppressed in the abyss, because of the effect the abyss has on lawful alignment. So you would have to devise a way to make it possible that the lawful personality could at all surface in the abyss, since it would be very unhappy there. Perhaps it is slowly turning chaotic and trying to resist this.

Spoiler:
This would mean that Demogorgon will be in a hurry to complete the Savage Tide and that would certainly be interesting.

2) The point of the two heads is, as I understand it (and I might be wrong) that his two personalities are created by the chaos in the abyss and that he cannot avoid that effect as long as he sits on the throne.

Spoiler:
I even seem to remember that in the savage tide whoever takes the throne after Demogorgon, will eventually get a split personality, i.e. two heads. I even seem to remember that what Demogorgon really wants, e.g. be one personality, will be impossible for him as long as he is on the throne of the abyss. (I keep hoping two PCs are going to sit on the throne at once, so that I can merge them into one creature with two heads!)

3) Will Asmodeus tolerate another being so powerful and LE? However, this might just be the reason why this LE being is in the abyss and not in the Nine Hells.

Cheliax

Thanks, Luna

1) The idea of the "surpressed" Lawful Alignment in the Abyss is one of the things that drew me to this concept. In a sense, it makes the Abyssal Lord that much more Chaotic than other CE Abyssal creatures.

2) I don't know about the original "point" of the two heads but I was thinking that, and this ties in Beautifully with your #3, that Demogorgon was a LE rival of Asmodeus who tried and nearly succeeded in overthrowing him and is now in the Abyss with two heads, two personalities completely amalgamated into one, the CE pure Abyssal and the LE former ArchDevil.


I would like to hear how this will develop. It is such an interesting idea.

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