| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I guess I should explain myself better- I am observing that some players focus on optimization (DPR, AC, saves, etc.) with a lack of focus on roleplaying. This phenomenon breaks immersion for me (which is the topic of the thread). An observation related to this phenomenon is that the customization available makes it possible to play (and enjoy) the game with a focus on optimization rather than roleplaying. Roleplaying vs. rollplaying is the topic of other threads, but I believe my observation fits within the topic of the thread.Which is fine, but don't blame the lack of role playing on the abundance of optimization.The topic of the thread is 'things that break immersion.' Rollplaying instead of roleplaying breaks immersion for me. The game can be played as a tabletop MMO, but that is not the immersion I am looking for.PF has improved customization and options over a lot of RPGs imo, and the class guides are great, but a focus on optimizing DPR, AC, and saves at the expense of roleplaying takes getting used to.*SIGH* Once again, optimization and role playing skill are independent of one another. Being good at one has no bearing on the other.
What people will point out is that mechanical decisions have nothing to do with roleplaying, but I suspect your issue is that when mechanically building a character you are expected not to roleplay the crunch.
Which I admit is an issue for me too. Why does every fighter I make have to have Iron Will and Indomitable Faith? And why is it that after doing that my will save is only barely acceptable?
Or how about that anytime I make a monk I have to take extra care to make sure my to-hit and damage is relevant. Or that I need to do X,Y,and Z to keep my AC in the non-lethal ranges.
Pathfinder doesn't really allow me to roleplay character creation, which is what I think you are talking about, not people roleplaying their characters in-game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
ParagonDireRacoon is pointing out that some people optimise with little regard for roleplaying (which is true) and that when those people do that, it breaks immersion for him (her? Damn English...)
A further observation is that, since pathfinder rewards system mastery, it is possible to play the game as a character building exercise, rather than as a deep roleplaying experience.
He isn't saying that optimisers can't roleplay, nor that if you focus on optimisation you must put less effort into roleplaying.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well yeah, and there's a reason for it. Not sure why you're being so condescending about it.You can't say that! Not here! Now the pile on and screams of "STORMWIND!!!" will come!
Noooooooo!!!!!!!
Because people who don't have fun the DrDeth approved way are evil badwrongfun-having scum. Duh.
Why does every fighter I make have to have Iron Will and Indomitable Faith?
Good question. I've done just fine without them. : )
Because people who don't have fun the DrDeth approved way are evil badwrongfun-having scum. Duh.Well yeah, and there's a reason for it. Not sure why you're being so condescending about it.You can't say that! Not here! Now the pile on and screams of "STORMWIND!!!" will come!
Noooooooo!!!!!!!
C'mon. I've never seen DrDeth say anything remotely like that.
Which is why the GM should have the kobolds aid another. That'll show those cocky adventurers
If you're at the level where they can't hit you without aid another, the damage they would do to you if they DID manage to hit is paltry. This would be a problem if all of them hit, but you probably need 3-4 kobolds aiding one another to get one hit off at that point, so you're losing your superior numbers by 75% at that point.
Kingdom Building: All buildings take "a month" to throw up, doesn't matter if it's a house or a damned palace, just so long as you can pay the BP costs. That and the rules just mechanically suck and are tedious.
I take it you haven't played Civilization...
Which is why the GM should have the kobolds aid another. That'll show those cocky adventurersIf you're at the level where they can't hit you without aid another, the damage they would do to you if they DID manage to hit is paltry. This would be a problem if all of them hit, but you probably need 3-4 kobolds aiding one another to get one hit off at that point, so you're losing your superior numbers by 75% at that point.
Kobolds don't use Aid Another to help their compatriots stab the PCs. They use Aid Another to grapple, pin, tie up, and coup-de-grace the PCs, or to make sure that at least one of their hundreds of poisoned weapons finds its mark.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why does every fighter I make have to have Iron Will and Indomitable Faith?Good question. I've done just fine without them. : )
Oh you will do just fine. It's the rest of the party that will have problems.
Recently played with a rogue who at level 11 had a +4 will save. 90% of all his actions were attacks against the party (his character also hated us so it wasn't against his nature to attack us either, not that it mattered since he needed to roll a 20).
We ended up having to kick the player out of the group since he was having so much fun attacking the party that he decided he should do it even when not dominated (turns out he hated us as much as his character).
Why does every fighter I make have to have Iron Will and Indomitable Faith?Good question. I've done just fine without them. : )Oh you will do just fine. It's the rest of the party that will have problems.
Recently played with a rogue who at level 11 had a +4 will save. 90% of all his actions were attacks against the party (his character also hated us so it wasn't against his nature to attack us either, not that it mattered since he needed to roll a 20).
We ended up having to kick the player out of the group since he was having so much fun attacking the party that he decided he should do it even when not dominated (turns out he hated us as much as his character).
90 percent? What campaign has you facing enemies with dominate nine times out of ten?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I guess I should explain myself better- I am observing that some players focus on optimization (DPR, AC, saves, etc.) with a lack of focus on roleplaying. This phenomenon breaks immersion for me (which is the topic of the thread). An observation related to this phenomenon is that the customization available makes it possible to play (and enjoy) the game with a focus on optimization rather than roleplaying. Roleplaying vs. rollplaying is the topic of other threads, but I believe my observation fits within the topic of the thread.You can't say that! Not here! Now the pile on and screams of "STORMWIND!!!" will come!
Noooooooo!!!!!!!
*brace your selves*
*The swarm of Stormwing Fallacies are coming*
90 percent? What campaign has you facing enemies with dominate nine times out of ten?Why does every fighter I make have to have Iron Will and Indomitable Faith?Good question. I've done just fine without them. : )Oh you will do just fine. It's the rest of the party that will have problems.
Recently played with a rogue who at level 11 had a +4 will save. 90% of all his actions were attacks against the party (his character also hated us so it wasn't against his nature to attack us either, not that it mattered since he needed to roll a 20).
We ended up having to kick the player out of the group since he was having so much fun attacking the party that he decided he should do it even when not dominated (turns out he hated us as much as his character).
A bunch of aberrations/outsiders. Interesting campaign. We are mythic so domination spam is mainly a way to eat up mythic power via surging. But his will save was so abysmal that surging wouldn't help. Likewise a fighter without that +3 to will would also have a lot of trouble.
(Also this rogue was only around for two dungeons. The player also had a habit of character hopping, most of his characters had to be put down by the party when he attacked us for one excusable reason or another.)
So.. Why aren't all casters going insane with their minds being scorched with spell energy they're keeping stored in their brain?... what makes you think they aren't? Have you ever met a reasonably high level mage who didn't seem at least a little bit off?
Two-Hundred kobolds attack, "who cares were level 9 they can't possibly hit our AC unless the roll 20s lets mop them up." This is completely true but it is a decision based on paper not on what an actual person who wants to live would do.Why not? Would it make more sense if they said exactly the same thing, but not in game mechanics terms. "These creatures are no threat to a mighty warrior like me. Such puny foes will need great luck to even scratch my magic armor. I will cut them down with ease."I think the problem in the example is actually a mismatch between real world appropriate behaviour and mechanics appropriate behaviour. If you tried that in the real world with a mob of people you'd kill a few before they got hold of you and dragged you to the floor. Then they'd either take you prisoner of stick knives through your eyes. It's not a winning proposition, no matter how good your armour is, because it doesn't help you stay upright against a tide of bodies.
Whereas in game it can be a winning proposition. And that is Gnomezrule's problem.
Heck, Golarian has a Wizard who made a tower ON THE FREAKING SUN. Why? because politics suck...
Because people who don't have fun the DrDeth approved way are evil badwrongfun-having scum. Duh.Well yeah, and there's a reason for it. Not sure why you're being so condescending about it.You can't say that! Not here! Now the pile on and screams of "STORMWIND!!!" will come!
Noooooooo!!!!!!!
Well that escalated quickly
|
I would go a step further. The fact that clerics "Cast" spells at all really kills it for me. Gods are powerful beings with goals, and the divine magic system takes the power away from the god and basically makes them into the clerics little magic genie.
Yeah, divine magic is kind of weird, flavorwise.
In general, it turns out okay in play for our group (with clerics really genuinely working for their gods ends). But I'd prefer something less legalistic and wizardy, with the possible exception of very lawful gods.
To make matter worse, you have Wands of Cure light wounds. "Yeah, I just stored my god's divine power...
Yeah, I'm just going to assume the bards make all of those :)
Actually, I'll just pretend they don't exist really hard and encourage my players to not make their healers cry. So far so good.
Cheers!
Landon
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
C'mon. I've never seen DrDeth say anything remotely like that.Because people who don't have fun the DrDeth approved way are evil badwrongfun-having scum. Duh.Well yeah, and there's a reason for it. Not sure why you're being so condescending about it.You can't say that! Not here! Now the pile on and screams of "STORMWIND!!!" will come!
Noooooooo!!!!!!!
I REGRET TO INFORM YOU THAT YOUR COMMENT IS NOW UNDER INVESTIGATION FROM THE SARCASM CONTROL BEREAU. WE ARE NOW TAKING YOU INTO CONFINEMENT
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There was a scenario I ran where there's a bard leader and 4 of his minions attacking the party. It went something like this:
"This minion swings his weapon at you. Hits!"
"That minion swings his weapon at you. Misses."
"This minion swings his weapon at you. Misses."
"That minion swings his weapon at you. Hits."
"Now it's the leader's turn in the back. He... sings a tune."
"Die Motherf*cker Die?"
There was a scenario I ran where there's a bard leader and 4 of his minions attacking the party. It went something like this:
"This minion swings his weapon at you. Hits!"
"That minion swings his weapon at you. Misses."
"This minion swings his weapon at you. Misses."
"That minion swings his weapon at you. Hits."
"Now it's the leader's turn in the back. He... sings a tune.""Die Motherf*cker Die?"
Let the bodies hit the floor
Let the bodies hit the floorLet the bodies hit the floor
Let the bodies hit the FLOOR!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There was a scenario I ran where there's a bard leader and 4 of his minions attacking the party. It went something like this:
"This minion swings his weapon at you. Hits!"
"That minion swings his weapon at you. Misses."
"This minion swings his weapon at you. Misses."
"That minion swings his weapon at you. Hits."
"Now it's the leader's turn in the back. He... sings a tune.""Die Motherf*cker Die?"
Let the bodies hit the floor
Let the bodies hit the floor
Let the bodies hit the floor
Let the bodies hit the FLOOR!
I shot the Party~
But I did not shoot the NPCs~
|
Always found it funny when people try to compare realistic situation to dnd heroes.
Do you know many people who can take a greataxe to the chest and keep walking around, because it is just a flesh wound? or fall down 300 ft and keep walking, because it barely did half their hp?
Yeah the average commoner have 4-5 hp, so yeah they just die from one greataxe attack. Dnd heroes on the other hand are closer to demigods to most people. People who can create water at will, fly, control people and monsters with just a few spells...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My point was the promotion of gritty realism just for me immersion is broken when people use strategy based on some game mechanics and not real world thinking. My example has flaws. I just prefer it when real world tactics line up with in game tactics. It breaks immersion for me when a math problem that has nothing to do with heroics or reality breaking trumps sound real world tactics.
My point was the promotion of gritty realism just for me immersion is broken when people use strategy based on some game mechanics and not real world thinking. My example has flaws. I just prefer it when real world tactics line up with in game tactics. It breaks immersion for me when a math problem that has nothing to do with heroics or reality breaking trumps sound real world tactics.
Most campaigns would end pretty fast if PCs were scared of what things looked or sounded like instead of what their stats were. Not saying you're not on topic, or that your opinion is wrong, but people will die fast if there's not at least a little metagaming involved. It's either on the DM to make sure everything the party encounters is a reasonable challenge, or on the PCs to know OOC when to cut and run for the sake of not dying, roleplay be damned.
sacred geometry
Oh man I asked for immersion breaking mechanics not pious tributes to poor game design :P
It made me wonder when Byron Hall got hired by Paizo.
Well it is a creative feat and perfect for a 4th grade math activity.
You could even have a college probability class where as an assignment you prove the optimal amount of knowledge(engineering). Or for a computer science class, make a program that automatically determines a solution.
I saw someone reference a proof where the feat that boost the dice to d8s actually makes you have LESS of a chance to get the right number. This level of trap option design is just masterful.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It made me wonder when Byron Hall got hired by Paizo.Well it is a creative feat and perfect for a 4th grade math activity.
You could even have a college probability class where as an assignment you prove the optimal amount of knowledge(engineering). Or for a computer science class, make a program that automatically determines a solution.
I saw someone reference a proof where the feat that boost the dice to d8s actually makes you have LESS of a chance to get the right number. This level of trap option design is just masterful.
Truly, the "Springtime for Hitler" of game design. So horrible it's honestly beautiful.
The reason they make it harder sometimes is that you're less likely to get a one. 1s are invaluable in hitting the target numbers. (I don't mind the system personally, but think it should have been D12s or even D20s).
Try it with d20s or d100s even and you'll quickly convince yourself that the bigger range is a curse, not a blessing. (Granted there'll be a lower bound as to what is optimal too).
|
Bards can maintain performance as a free action. Bards do not sit back and whistle a tune, they drive their steel/magic/arrows into your heart while they whistle a tune. That is a problem with the DM playing Bards wrong, not Bards breaking immersion.
You've taken this out of context.
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, ...
It's weird to have a guy at the back perform in the middle of a fight.
Bards can maintain performance as a free action. Bards do not sit back and whistle a tune, they drive their steel/magic/arrows into your heart while they whistle a tune. That is a problem with the DM playing Bards wrong, not Bards breaking immersion.You've taken this out of context.
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, ...It's weird to have a guy at the back perform in the middle of a fight.
It's not like it's always a standard action. Even then the guy spending his turn in the back performing could be construed as the commander yelling out orders ("Form ranks! Focus fire the one in the pointy hat! You! Stand in front of me and take my hits!").
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
TO LEFT NOW YALL!!! TO THE RIGHT NOW YALL!!! NOW EVERYBODY CLAP YOUR HANDS!!! *casts sound Burst*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can't be construed as yelling out orders if his ranks are in Perform (sing)! He's singing his orders!
That's the beauty of all the performances that are actually worth using: The perform skill has nothing to do with them so you literally could be doing anything, as long as it is visual or sound based in some way.
I have less issue with someone using the power of music than I do with Bard performances having nothing to do with perform.
I have less issue with someone using the power of music than I do with Bard performances having nothing to do with perform.
And yet this is the case for pretty much every bardic performance besides the terrible ones like Distraction and Countersong, and this is true regardless of personal opinion. You could have a negative 10,000 to all your perform skills and it would mean nothing for how those abilities function.
Vancian magic. I have always despised it, since the very early days of D&D. That's why I rarely play wizard types.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bards can maintain performance as a free action. Bards do not sit back and whistle a tune, they drive their steel/magic/arrows into your heart while they whistle a tune. That is a problem with the DM playing Bards wrong, not Bards breaking immersion.You've taken this out of context.
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, ...It's weird to have a guy at the back perform in the middle of a fight.
What's really weirder? The fact that some guy is performing in the middle of the fight? Or the fact that he can "run out" of performance?
It's not a performance. It's a form of magic energy that works through a performance.
On the subject of divinity and vancian casting... I actually think vancian casting works better for clerics, since you have something else doling out spells to you, the limited amounts of XYZ makes some sense.
My biggest issue with clerics is how limited the domain system is. It feels wrong to me that, say, a cleric of the Black Daimyo, a cleric of Cayden and a cleric of Pharasma are all ultimately going to have the vast majority of their options be the same or mirrored.
The reason they make it harder sometimes is that you're less likely to get a one. 1s are invaluable in hitting the target numbers. (I don't mind the system personally, but think it should have been D12s or even D20s).
Try it with d20s or d100s even and you'll quickly convince yourself that the bigger range is a curse, not a blessing. (Granted there'll be a lower bound as to what is optimal too).
But you can easily get ones (or zeros which are also useful, but pairing numbers up.
Theoretically, I see your point, but it seems so easy to me that I doubt it would make a practical difference. d100s would. Even d20s.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **Still pretty trivial. 20 would probably be more difficult with smaller numbers of dice.
** spoiler omitted **
Harder with less numbers to work with, but I could still get one in couple of minutes.
Yeah, it's not much harder with bigger sized die, but it is harder (making the feat peculiar).
The main factor is undoubtedly the number of dice.
|
|
For me the most immersion breaking rules are the turn order based on initiative, I'm working on a way to make it all simultaneous here but I've always found it weird and even when I ran normally I'd have initiative rolled every round just to mix it up and make it seem more realistic.
Clerics have always bugged me, I don't want clerics to have general spell lists, I want all domains to be spell lists, then clerics have only have access to the spells on their domain lists.
Bombs. A physical object that you apparently can't carry more than X of, and there is literally no way for anyone else to use them.