Ilina and her boyfriend Tim here, sitting next to each other and collaborating, but we both noticed a trend with a few traits possessed by every murderhobo we encountered and the list includes at least multiple of the following traits
1. dead parents, Tim and i are 2 of the few gamers who still give their characters living parents, could the lack of responsibility be an orphan's greatest boon?
2. lack of connections, most murderhobos don't even give their characters a best friend or even a stuffed doll
3. a tragic past, everybody has done this at some point. even us
4. a greedy mercenary attitude, while it is important to be able to survive, one should not ask a starving hamlet for tens of thousands of gold coins it cannot afford as a whole community for a simple clearing of a den of kobolds. why should the hamlet starve so a few adventurers can thrive? now, if they offered free food and inn for life and a percentage of the annual crop yeild, that isn't too bad
5. intense bloodlust without remorse, while we do occasionally play bloodthirsty hotheads, they are usually young, inexperienced and still growing out of it
what is so appealing with these traits?
i can agree that a well played chaotic evil character like Tokisaki Kurumi from Date a Live or admiral Artemisia from 300 can add to a game. but neither of those 2 chaotic evil examples were completely without attachment or obsession and most fictional examples aren't. for even the infamous joker and jigsaw had inner circles.
a bloodthirsty and greedy hot head is fine, a chaotic evil character is fine, just please give them some connections to flesh them out, both friendly and not. because even the loneliest and most violent of murderers, still has someone they can communicate with who understands them. an orphan will usually adopt a father figure or older sibling figure pretty early on as part of a symbiotic bond.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ilina and her boyfriend Tim here, sitting next to each other and collaborating, but we both noticed a trend with a few traits possessed by every murderhobo we encountered and the list includes at least multiple of the following traits
1. dead parents, Tim and i are 2 of the few gamers who still give their characters living parents, could the lack of responsibility be an orphan's greatest boon?
what is so appealing with these traits?
I suppose it's preferable over winding up like one notable murderhobo of antiquity: Oedipus.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Come sit, and listen awhile
One evening as the moons came up and the temple fire was burning
Down the path came a murderhobo hiking and he said boys I'm not turning
I'm headin for a realm that's far away beside the crystal fountains
so join the party and we'll go and see the Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains there's a land that's fair and bright
Where the XP grows on bushes and you sleep out every night
Where the laws are all empty and you would kill the sheriff anyway
On the swords and the boards and the barmaid hoards
Where hostages get saved after we been paid
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains all the guards have wooden legs
And the monsters all have rubber teeth and the barkeeps handover their kegs
The farmer's barns are full of loot, if they say no feel free to slay
Oh, I'm not bound to go where there ain't no gold
where those townsfolk should have killed us the truth be told
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains you never worry about locks
and if folks are home you just run them through there’s no time for talks
the paladins have to tip their helms and all the lawful good are blind
If the party knew I’d kill them too
bury the dead without their gear is the thing to do
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains, dungeons are made of tin
And you can walk right out again as soon as you are in
so I'm a goin to stay where you flay all day
Where they hung the jerk that invented role-play
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
I'll see you all next Monty Haul in the Big Rock Candy Mountains
I suppose it's preferable over winding up like one notable murderhobo of antiquity: Oedipus.Ilina and her boyfriend Tim here, sitting next to each other and collaborating, but we both noticed a trend with a few traits possessed by every murderhobo we encountered and the list includes at least multiple of the following traits
1. dead parents, Tim and i are 2 of the few gamers who still give their characters living parents, could the lack of responsibility be an orphan's greatest boon?
what is so appealing with these traits?
Not even close. Oedipus killed Laius in self-defense when the charioteer tried to run him over.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Most of the problem, that I can tell, stems from the thought process behind the term.
When you add things, like monster babies, in a simple good guys vs bad guys I gotta wonder if things are being added to game game to deliberately mess with players or make paladins fall.
Most of the discussions about it are based on instances where a dm has fabricated an encounter that seemingly exists solely to establish the players as "murderhobos." Most of the time these horribad players may simply not play along because they aren't interested that kind of pretentious drama.
Not even close. Oedipus killed Laius in self-defense when the charioteer tried to run him over.I suppose it's preferable over winding up like one notable murderhobo of antiquity: Oedipus.Ilina and her boyfriend Tim here, sitting next to each other and collaborating, but we both noticed a trend with a few traits possessed by every murderhobo we encountered and the list includes at least multiple of the following traits
1. dead parents, Tim and i are 2 of the few gamers who still give their characters living parents, could the lack of responsibility be an orphan's greatest boon?
what is so appealing with these traits?
the way I heard it, he overreacted when he was either splashed with refuse water from the chariot or he got smacked on the head by the crop as the driver went past.
|
|
Most of the problem, that I can tell, stems from the thought process behind the term.
When you add things, like monster babies, in a simple good guys vs bad guys I gotta wonder if things are being added to game game to deliberately mess with players or make paladins fall.
Most of the discussions about it are based on instances where a dm has fabricated an encounter that seemingly exists solely to establish the players as "murderhobos." Most of the time these horribad players may simply not play along because they aren't interested that kind of pretentious drama.
So GMs are to blame for putting any obstacle before the players that doesnt involve killing it to overcome?
No. Well, of course, but not what you meant.
No, I'm talking about the term murderhobo and how it's used to troll on players who don't play the way you want them too.
It's relevant to the topic.
If that sort of thing floats your boat then cool beans for you.
And i have nothing against murder free components of gameplay, provided it exists to enhance to game and not grief the group. People are over eager to name call, and murderhobo is a term I think the rpg community is too comfortable with.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
and murderhobo is a term I think the rpg community has become far too comfortable with being
I thought murderhobos came from people playing lots of MMO or first person shooters. The groups that I played with didn't get into that and we don't have that murderhobo thing going on. On the otherhand the different people I have played games with have been in the area since the early 90's.
IMO, it stems mainly from a desire for power without responsibility/consequence. "I can do whatever I feel like and nobody can stop me. Bah... Laws don't apply to me, either. And if anyone tries to tell me what to do or get in my way, I'll kill them. So they should just do what I tell them to do. Because I'm the most important being in the universe."
I could do the armchair psychiatrist thing, but instead I'll talk about how people who aren't in/don't have experience in positions of authority tend to think it's all gravy ("Yeah...If I were the boss, then I could just tell everyone else what to do and goof off all day."), when supervising/managing people is actually very complex and difficult, requiring a lot of effort. Also, as a supervisor/manager, you are ultimately judged by how well the people you supervise/manage perform; not to mention that the competition for finite positions/resources in the organization gets pretty brutal/cutthroat the higher you go.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I thought murderhobos came from people playing lots of MMO or first person shooters. The groups that I played with didn't get into that and we don't have that murderhobo thing going on. On the otherhand the different people I have played games with have been in the area since the early 90's.
Y'know, I actually came to tabletop RPGs from videogames and I was rather shocked and put off by how decidedly unheroic and, well, murderous and uncaring the other PCs were.
Link, Simon Belmont, and Cecil Harvey they were decidedly not. Even the Bad Dudes were more invested in the world around them.
After all, they did save the president from ninjas.
It just seemed a waste to be presented with a medium where you could have a fully fleshed out fantasy world with endless possibilities as far as how you could interact with it and craft your own character's story only to see all of it reduced to "can kill this/can take advantage of this/can sell loot to this".
Simplicity, if nothing else.
"What's your character like."
"S!!! I dunno, let's just get going. His parents are dead, he hates monsters, and he likes getting paid. Let's get a move on."
Sometimes people want to play the game like it's Grand Theft Auto.
Sometimes people want to play the game like it's Grand Theft Auto.
even the main guy in each individual grand theft auto game had a series of close friends and beneficial contacts he did favors for. he didn't try to kill everything that moved, and the game series actually had more story than just stealing cars and killing people, not that people wouldn't enter cheat codes and go on killing sprees and have a hack and slash fest as a reward for clearing a group of missions.
Some people aren't in it to play like that. Some people don't care about the story, the characters, or being even mildly heroic.
Some people literally show up to do nothing other than play the combat game because that is a game in and of itself.
if combat where the only thing that mattered? why didn't they pick up a miniatures wargame?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ilina and her boyfriend Tim here, sitting next to each other and collaborating, but we both noticed a trend with a few traits possessed by every murderhobo we encountered and the list includes at least multiple of the following traits
1. dead parents, Tim and i are 2 of the few gamers who still give their characters living parents, could the lack of responsibility be an orphan's greatest boon?
2. lack of connections, most murderhobos don't even give their characters a best friend or even a stuffed doll
3. a tragic past, everybody has done this at some point. even us
4. a greedy mercenary attitude, while it is important to be able to survive, one should not ask a starving hamlet for tens of thousands of gold coins it cannot afford as a whole community for a simple clearing of a den of kobolds. why should the hamlet starve so a few adventurers can thrive? now, if they offered free food and inn for life and a percentage of the annual crop yeild, that isn't too bad
5. intense bloodlust without remorse, while we do occasionally play bloodthirsty hotheads, they are usually young, inexperienced and still growing out of itwhat is so appealing with these traits?
Dear Ilina & Tim,
The Golarion Union of Murderhoboes for the Betterment of Society would gladly illuminate the innumerable reasons and benefits of partaking in our time-honored profession. For the sake of time though, we will respond just to your enumerated list.
1. Your observational trend, while possibly true for those whom you have encountered, is likely a result of sheer unfortunate chance and a small sample size compared to the much greater total population of murderhoboes. Additionally, you will need to control for possible biases in your sampling methods and adopt procedures that will aid in ensuring that you collect a truly representative sample of us. I am sure that, should you undertake the task of refining your data, you will be pleasantly surprised at how many of us have some or all of our parents and/or guardians alive still.
2. I again contend that this is the result of an unrepresentative sampling procedure. The Union has always made it a priority to foster camaraderie among its constituents. Personal Example.
3. How did you quantify the "tragedy" of someone's past? Every life is full of happy moments and sad moments. It is which one focuses on that determines their views of their collective past. Analyzing them second or third hand is inherently subjective. I'm not a psychologist, so I don't know what the distribution of optimists and pessimists are. I'd imagine though that it would have a positive correlation with the geopolitical and economic standard of living for them and their families. It is possible that you may be interviewing folks from a blighted land. In which case, please relay the epicenter of your interviewing efforts to me and I will ensure that complementary humanitarian aid is sent as soon as possible.
4. Wouldn't a starving hamlet be unable to afford a annual crop yield percentage or "free food for life"? I'd imagine that an obscure magical item or even a small sum of silver. In any case, the specific incident you have referenced was determined to be a clerical error and has long since been resolved to that hamlet's satisfaction.
5. I get the feeling that you encounter a disproportionate number of barbarians and bloodragers in your region.
Sincerely yours,
~Jaspar "Shank Him Louis" Kahrdboordebachs~
your local GUMBO representative
I thought murderhobos came from people playing lots of MMO or first person shooters. The groups that I played with didn't get into that and we don't have that murderhobo thing going on. On the otherhand the different people I have played games with have been in the area since the early 90's.Y'know, I actually came to tabletop RPGs from videogames and I was rather shocked and put off by how decidedly unheroic and, well, murderous and uncaring the other PCs were.
Link, Simon Belmont, and Cecil Harvey they were decidedly not. Even the Bad Dudes were more invested in the world around them.
After all, they did save the president from ninjas.
It just seemed a waste to be presented with a medium where you could have a fully fleshed out fantasy world with endless possibilities as far as how you could interact with it and craft your own character's story only to see all of it reduced to "can kill this/can take advantage of this/can sell loot to this".
Yeah I have to say, likewise coming to TTRPGs with JRPGs and other console games as my introduction to the fantasy genre, the whole "it's because people play too many video games" excuse has never held water with me. Most of the people I've been around who play like that aren't video gamers.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like deep back stories and role playing but not everyone does. I think some of these "murderhobos" are people who don't really want to devote a lot of time building the character's personality they just want to get to the good stuff, roll the dice and fight. Not my style but hey if they are having fun and it's not causing grief to the rest of the group let them murderhobo away.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Simplicity, if nothing else.
"What's your character like."
"S%~! I dunno, let's just get going. His parents are dead, he hates monsters, and he likes getting paid. Let's get a move on."
Agreed, and to expand a bit: most people I've seen play murderhobos do so because they can't (or can't be bothered to) come up with a more interesting motivation for their character. It's not so much that being a murderhobo is inherently attractive for them, it just winds up being the "default motivation" for the lazy or unimaginative.
That said, I think getting rich is a fine motivation in itself, and when done well can divorce itself from the concepts of "greed" and "evil" just fine. I like to think of such characters as "treasure hunters" rather than "murderhobos".
I also think a large part of problem is that XP is typically rewarded only for overcoming encounters, which in turn often means killing or beating your opponent into submission. It used to be that XP was awarded for each gold piece recovered, a rule that was later eliminated presumably because it seemed to make greed the only viable motivating factor. Ironically though, that greed served to reduce the murder aspect: since XP was so much more plentiful from treasure than from killing, players were best off avoiding monsters whenever possible if they could get at the gold another way. Pathfinder murderhobos may be after gold in part, but most likely they'll be looking for XP with at least equal gusto, and thus be killing everything they can their swords on.
Ilina and her boyfriend Tim here, sitting next to each other and collaborating, but we both noticed a trend with a few traits possessed by every murderhobo we encountered and the list includes at least multiple of the following traits
1. dead parents, Tim and i are 2 of the few gamers who still give their characters living parents, could the lack of responsibility be an orphan's greatest boon?
2. lack of connections, most murderhobos don't even give their characters a best friend or even a stuffed doll
3. a tragic past, everybody has done this at some point. even us
4. a greedy mercenary attitude, while it is important to be able to survive, one should not ask a starving hamlet for tens of thousands of gold coins it cannot afford as a whole community for a simple clearing of a den of kobolds. why should the hamlet starve so a few adventurers can thrive? now, if they offered free food and inn for life and a percentage of the annual crop yeild, that isn't too bad
5. intense bloodlust without remorse, while we do occasionally play bloodthirsty hotheads, they are usually young, inexperienced and still growing out of itwhat is so appealing with these traits?
I can't speak for everyone and I rarely run what are usually characterized as 'murderhobos.'
I have a hard time putting as much effort into my back stories and especially any connections in them like many GM's wish.
1) After due diligence and putting a lot of thought and effort into a back story, most GM's do absolutely nothing with it even if they read it. Each time that happens it makes it less likely I will put much effort the next time. If the GM is never going to consider it, don't make such a big deal out of it being needed.
2) Some of the few GM's who have ever made use of a backstory has only been for negative things. Every thing or person mentioned in the backstory will be used to emotionally hammer/blackmail the PC. It becomes nothing except a list of the PC's weaknesses.
Sometimes playing a murderhobo is a fun short term lark. Long term I think it gets boring quick. But for some people it does not.
As far as the 2 people I know who insist upon playing nothing except murderhobos...
Well to be honest, I think it is just a stress relief for them. In RL they spend all day every day at work just dealing with problem people. This has no emotional angst on deciding what it the right thing to do and can just beat the living tar out of anything for any reason.
IMO, it stems mainly from a desire for power without responsibility/consequence. "I can do whatever I feel like and nobody can stop me. Bah... Laws don't apply to me, either. And if anyone tries to tell me what to do or get in my way, I'll kill them. So they should just do what I tell them to do. Because I'm the most important being in the universe."
I could do the armchair psychiatrist thing, but instead I'll talk about how people who aren't in/don't have experience in positions of authority tend to think it's all gravy ("Yeah...If I were the boss, then I could just tell everyone else what to do and goof off all day."), when supervising/managing people is actually very complex and difficult, requiring a lot of effort. Also, as a supervisor/manager, you are ultimately judged by how well the people you supervise/manage perform; not to mention that the competition for finite positions/resources in the organization gets pretty brutal/cutthroat the higher you go.
People only need to look at the Stanford Prison Experiment from 1971 for a look at what people are capable of when they're put in charge and told to do whatever they think they need to do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Part of the "no parents, no connections" thing may come from past GMs who've used any connections against the PCs. Anything you care about is a hostage who can be killed or captured or hurt to jerk the characters around.
I can see where this would be a problem when handled poorly by a GM, but in my mind, these are precisely the sorts of things that can make for great stories.
I blame the Hero System for fixing it firmly in many gamers' minds that having someone you care about is a Disadvantage; Likewise character flaws and weaknesses.
I love the idea of the plot point cards, and one step further, a system I first encountered in the Serenity RPG. Every time your character has a story complication due to a weakness or flaw, he gets a bonus. That makes the critical failures more palatable and can eventually get players to embrace their characters' flaws.
And a character who always tells the truth, guided by a player who is looking to get that flaw to operate more often rather than never at all... Well that can make for some great storytelling.
It gets players that want more loot and power for their characters more loot and power for their characters.