Actually, Rock Lee is explicitly stated not to be able to manipulate chakra. Everything he does is 100% pure physical power (which is only 1/2 of what makes chakra, chakra).
And chakra isn't magical in-universe anyway. Everyone has it, everyone can use it, it just takes training.
Waitwaitwait, so suddenly the monk and his supernatural impossible abilities are not supernatural?
Naruto ninja aren't Monks.
Ki is magical, because it has a Su tag. In-universe, within the Pathfinder rules and setting, Ki is magical.
This is not the case for Chakra in the Naruto universe. There is no "antimagic" that shuts down chakra (at least that I can recall. I think there are some specific anti-jutsu powers, but nothing that actually shuts down CHAKRA without draining/absorbing it).
I never really understood why characters with no magical abilities competing with the casters was such blasphemy in D&D... Video games never have a problem making them equal. The best class in Etrian Odyssey is the Survivalist, which is essentially a spell-less Ranger. The most versatile class in Fire Emblem is the Pegasus Knight, which is a dex-based cavalier. BB Hood of Darkstalkers fame is a human girl with no special powers other than her ability with explosives and yet she is able to walk into the realm of demons and come out with trophies.
These games assume that whatever your tool set is, or whatever the source of your powers is, it should be strong enough to hang with everyone else in the game. That's just... how game design works.
Note, though, that in almost any game you come across, things suited for warriors boost their abilities or up their damage, while casters don't always get a lot of stuff and it just adds a bit of damage or something.
Casters in video games also don't often do much more than play blaster-casters or healers; and if they do, they end up being borderline broken, just like D&D - in any game, the ones that have access to Control are always at the high end of power.
In D&D, the game is simply like what a lot of myths & stories are - casters have innate access to Magic, while warriors need magic weapons, armor, and other things to help.
There are ways to get around spells, like Disruptive, Spellbreaker, etc., to take down casters. And Barbarians can go full-on "Superman Punching Reality" and Spell Sunder.
Casters still have a very-strong lead on warriors when both groups are naked, but you have to accept that one of the "qualities" of warrior-types is that they get the most gear designed for them, while casters don't typically get a ton of "caster-only" stuff.
There is the Spark class from Terah, Ashoka. I had a spark/barbarian whose entire arsenal was based on biological engineering upon a very miserable newt named Jeremy. It might require a teensy bit of flavoring, but the "mad scientist" shtick matches your idea pretty well. And it's a fun class, too (if crazy complicated).
I never really understood why characters with no magical abilities competing with the casters was such blasphemy in D&D...It never has been.
The problem is almost universally a case of people wanting to play every single class at once and being upset when there are certain classes with certain specializations.
And the problem in THIS discussion is people wanting to do impossible, supernatural, physics-defying things while having them be labeled by a fairly arbitrary and contradictory scale (their own) as "not magic." It's rather like wanting to play character with super powers wearing spandex and saving the day but NOT calling him or her a "superhero character".
...I don't quite understand what that first paragraph is supposed to mean? I mean, first off if you want to play ever single class at once you can do that and it's called the Wizard. Secondly I don't want to play every class at once, I want to play a mundane class which is a large part of why I want to be able to do my thing without magical assistance.
As for the second paragraph, awesome does not necessarily mean magical. Was Pecos Bill employing magic when he lasso'd a tornado?
I never really understood why characters with no magical abilities competing with the casters was such blasphemy in D&D... Video games never have a problem making them equal. The best class in Etrian Odyssey is the Survivalist, which is essentially a spell-less Ranger. The most versatile class in Fire Emblem is the Pegasus Knight, which is a dex-based cavalier. BB Hood of Darkstalkers fame is a human girl with no special powers other than her ability with explosives and yet she is able to walk into the realm of demons and come out with trophies.
These games assume that whatever your tool set is, or whatever the source of your powers is, it should be strong enough to hang with everyone else in the game. That's just... how game design works.
Note, though, that in almost any game you come across, things suited for warriors boost their abilities or up their damage, while casters don't always get a lot of stuff and it just adds a bit of damage or something.
Casters in video games also don't often do much more than play blaster-casters or healers; and if they do, they end up being borderline broken, just like D&D - in any game, the ones that have access to Control are always at the high end of power.
In D&D, the game is simply like what a lot of myths & stories are - casters have innate access to Magic, while warriors need magic weapons, armor, and other things to help.
There are ways to get around spells, like Disruptive, Spellbreaker, etc., to take down casters. And Barbarians can go full-on "Superman Punching Reality" and Spell Sunder.
Casters still have a very-strong lead on warriors when both groups are naked, but you have to accept that one of the "qualities" of warrior-types is that they get the most gear designed for them, while casters don't typically get a ton of "caster-only" stuff.
The Etrian Odyssey example is a good counterpoint to this, actually. While Hexers don't have the massive narrative power that you get with high level Wizards (they can't, it's a video game), they are the primary debuffers of the game with their curses and play the God Wizard role quite well. They're kept in line because everything and it's dog is immune or at least heavily resistant to the more crippling curses you can put on them. Kinda like how everything and it's dog in Pathfinder has some sort of damage resistance that is most easily beaten by magic.
And the problem in THIS discussion is people wanting to do impossible, supernatural, physics-defying things while having them be labeled by a fairly arbitrary and contradictory scale (their own) as "not magic." It's rather like wanting to play character with super powers wearing spandex and saving the day but NOT calling him or her a "superhero character".
This.
D&D/Pathfinder is a FANTASY game. Magic is going to be involved somewhere, somehow. I appreciate people wanting to play "Solmon Kane"-esque stories, but they have to remember that even Kane used some magical items himself.
Even Conan, the ur-example of low-magic in modern-day fantasy, dealt with magic. Conan would wield magic swords or armor from time to time; companions would know limited magic, etc. And even The Cimmerian can't beat EVERY caster or eldritch abomination he comes across.
I can see people not wanting to allow some of the more-reality-warping spells: personally, I disallow teleportation spells, Create Demiplane, etc. spells, just because I don't feel that characters under lv20, caster or otherwise, should be able to ignore physics THAT much.
But that's more a matter of being annoyed with individual spells. Take those away (and there aren't THAT many that need to get the ax), and even full-casters get brought down to earth pretty quickly.
...I don't quite understand what that first paragraph is supposed to mean? I mean, first off if you want to play ever single class at once you can do that and it's called the Wizard. Secondly I don't want to play every class at once, I want to play a mundane class which is a large part of why I want to be able to do my thing without magical assistance.
As for the second paragraph, awesome does not necessarily mean magical. Was Pecos Bill employing magic when he lasso'd a tornado?
Paragraph one translated: "The game balance has casters who are good at casting, fighters who are good at fighting, and so on. Most complaining and discussion about 'competing with casters' is all about some fighter who wants to be best at fighting (which he is) and also have all wizarding powers TOO because he can't stand someone else having time in the spotlight."
Paragraph 2: Are you telling me Pecos Bill lassoing a tornado is not a supernatural, physics-defying act easily as "magic" as a martial artist who can use his ascetic physical perfection to walk through shadows?
If it breaks physics, it generally falls under "supernatural." Which falls under "magic" except when certain posters are suddenly contradicting themselves. The whole argument was that monks don't count as magic-less because they have impossible, supernatural abilities. Anything impossible Pecos Bill did falls under that too.
I'll defend the Pecos Bill thing as either Mythic Tiers or outright Epic Levels. Especially Epic: once you allow that ruleset, you're allowed to break physics, just because. At that point, though, you are no longer playing Pathfinder/D&D - you are playing Gurren Lagann, where your power is based purely on how badass whatever you want to do sounds.
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Monks don't count as magic because they do impossible things.
They count as magic because they literally have Supernatural stamped all over the class description.
You seem to be under the impression that if it's magic in this game, it's magic in every setting.
That isn't the case.
In many settings or stories, those sorts of feats are the norm.
Batman being able to easily lift a ton or more while not looking like he ate an outhouse for breakfast that morning, doing all those acrobatics he does, and catching arrows is impossible.
But it's not magic.
Paragraph one translated: "The game balance has casters who are good at casting, fighters who are good at fighting, and so on. Most complaining and discussion about 'competing with casters' is all about some fighter who wants to be best at fighting (which he is) and also have all wizarding powers TOO because he can't stand someone else having time in the spotlight."
Paragraph 2: Are you telling me Pecos Bill lassoing a tornado is not a supernatural, physics-defying act easily as "magic" as a martial artist who can use his ascetic physical perfection to walk through shadows?
If it breaks physics, it generally falls under "supernatural." Which falls under "magic" except when certain posters are suddenly contradicting themselves. The whole argument was that monks don't count as magic-less because they have impossible, supernatural abilities. Anything impossible Pecos Bill did falls under that too.
If Fighters were actually good at fighting then you'd have an argument. But alas, they are not. Good at DPR, sure, but terrible at most everything else involved in a combat.
And yes, I am absolutely telling you that Pecos Bill lasso'ing a tornado with a perfectly ordinary rope is a mundane, extraordinary ability. Pecos Bill would still be Pecos Bill in an anti-magic field. If your definition of "supernatural" is "breaks real world physics", then your definition of supernatural is EXTREMELY strict, far beyond how pathfinder defines it.
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Honest question: How do you make MacGyver in PF?
He may have "worked magic" with bubble gum and duct tape, but he didn't actually use magic. He also didn't use guns, didn't carry weapons and wasn't really a viable combatant (unless you gave him some gum).
I can see a bard maybe being able to get a similar flavour (and a wizard, I guess, if you ignore the magic) but that ain't MacGyver.
Maybe one of the new technology archetypes? Something like an artificer might work...?
Frustratingly, classes that are inspired by these types of examples always end up being somewhat magical. I'd love to have an explicitly non-magical class based on sparks from the Girl Genius webcomic...but with every special ability tagged (Ex)... not (Su) or SLA.
I'd love to have an explicitly non-magical class based on sparks from the Girl Genius webcomic...but with every special ability tagged (Ex)... not (Su) or SLA.
What's wrong with the Alchemist?
Does that (Su) next to Mutagen and Bombs bother you so much that you can't just imagine it as a purely-biological or mechanical thing?
I'm not getting all the hate for the Supernatural tag. Supernatural things include stuff like ghosts and psychics; personally, I wouldn't put things like that into the realm of "magic" persay - more like a third, "weird" state between magic and mundane.
Why does it bother people so much to have fantasy elements in a fantasy game?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how stating simple, undeniable facts about something like "Supernatural abilities are magical" and "Some classes have Supernatural abilities, that means they're not non-magical" means I hate said abilities somehow.
Is that a thing in some places? Stating facts about something is considered tearing it down?
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I'd love to have an explicitly non-magical class based on sparks from the Girl Genius webcomic...but with every special ability tagged (Ex)... not (Su) or SLA.What's wrong with the Alchemist?
Does that (Su) next to Mutagen and Bombs bother you so much that you can't just imagine it as a purely-biological or mechanical thing?
I'm not getting all the hate for the Supernatural tag. Supernatural things include stuff like ghosts and psychics; personally, I wouldn't put things like that into the realm of "magic" persay - more like a third, "weird" state between magic and mundane.
Why does it bother people so much to have fantasy elements in a fantasy game?
Doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the lack of awesome NON-magical elements. What bothers me is that the design parameters seem to be that magic is ALWAYS better than non-magical. What bothers me is that in order to make a Paul Bunyan type of a character capable of doing the kinds of impossible things found in tall tales, you HAVE to resort to magic.
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Essentially, the problem is that Pathfinder is really two different games rolled into one. Magic-wielding characters get to play in the high fantasy realm of superpowered spells that reshape reality. Characters without spells or other magic, by contrast, are bound by a whole lot of "that's not something a real-world human could do" restrictions.
Also, nobody mentioned Rock Lee. Actually, better example, Might Guy. He uses no Ninjutsu or Genjutsu, pure physical power/Taijutsu.He uses chrakra. He just has trouble with Jutsu. The Eight Gates are on the chrakra pathway system.
So no, not even Rock Lee is the pure mundane guy.
Actually, Rock Lee is explicitly stated not to be able to manipulate chakra. Everything he does is 100% pure physical power (which is only 1/2 of what makes chakra, chakra).
And chakra isn't magical in-universe anyway. Everyone has it, everyone can use it, it just takes training.
Actually no, not everyone has chakra.
Rock Lee has trouble manipulating chakra, that does not mean he doesn't use it. The more recent manga shows how he is just as vulnerable as everyone else to anti-chakra techniques.
Also don't know how you can say chakra isn't magical. It seems to me that you are just trying to find a way to be discontent with Pathfinder. Oh and even if Rock Lee wasn't magic, he still has never defeated a ghost.
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That's because ghosts don't exist in that universe.
As you'll recall, my initial statement was "level appropriate challenges".
In PF, this includes ghosts. In other media, it may not.
Not sure why you're so hostile in this discussion.
As you'll recall, my initial statement was "level appropriate challenges".
In PF, this includes ghosts. In other media, it may not.
Why?
I'm having issues with your request:
1) Mundane guy or gal
2) No Ki, no Supernatural, no magic
3) Must be viable
4) Doesn't use magical gear
5) Able to defeat things immune to non magic
I can do 1-4, I can't by definition make 5 work. It doesn't matter what universe or setting it's in, no purely mundane character can handle foes immune to all things mundane.
So I guess your complaint in PF is not character concepts, but the existence of one creature type (that I for one have rarely encountered) that you would be countered by.
Which I guess isn't much of a valid complaint in PF, since everyone has a hard counter and people still make viable characters.
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I'd like to play a Aya Brea type character from Parasite Eve 1. The basis of her power is semi-aware mitochondria that allows her to manifest a number of abilities from a pool of energy that recharges over time. The character is generally martial in nature despite the supernatural/extraordinary abilities.
Abilities are the following:
Heal (self-heal, varying strengths depending on energy expenditure)
Scan (reveals target's health condition and any weaknesses)
Slow (slows targets' movement/actions)
Detox (cures poison)
Barrier (attacks against the character drain the energy pool before doing HP damage)
Energy Shot (dump all remaining energy into a large medium ranged blast that damages target)
Confuse (causes confusion effect in target)
Haste (self-only)
Gene Heal (activatable fast healing)
Medic (removes all negative status effects)
Preraise (contingent self-heal when HP reduced below zero)
Full Recover (self-only Heal effect)
Liberate (transform into powerful creature with wings capable of doing high melee damage for a period of time. Doing so drains all of the energy pool. When the transformation expires, the character is staggered for a time).I'd appreciate any advice on how to build such a character using the Pathfinder rules (no 3pp).
90% of these abilities can be done easily with an alchemist, just pick up exotic weapon proficiency firearms and you are set. My biggest issue was the energy shot but you could technically fluff the alchemist bombs at being some kind of energy shots. The self-heal is way too easy with stuffs like making a potion of heal, drinking it and activating when you are low on hp, it's one of the alchemist discoveries. You have of course, the good ole Resurrection trick for alchemist using alchemical allocation and philosopher stone. There is of course, the other ugly solution...mystic theurge you would get all the abilities but you will be playing a mystic theurge.
There are a lot.Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.
Indeed, they were loaded. The Most Powerful Artifact in the World. The 3rd most powerful artifact in the world. Two relic level swords. Gandalfs staff. Bane daggers for all. Magic bow for Legolas. Magic cloaks all around. A powerful relic gem. Hithlain rope. Sting. What amounts to the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt. And more.
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Indeed, they were loaded. The Most Powerful Artifact in the World. The 3rd most powerful artifact in the world. Two relic level swords. Gandalfs staff. Bane daggers for all. Magic bow for Legolas. Magic cloaks all around. A powerful relic gem. Hithlain rope. Sting. What amounts to the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt. And more.There are a lot.Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.
Isn't Gandalf some kind of an outsider too? Just to add a bit more to all the aid that they had.
Unfortunately incorporeal says that creatures of this type cannot take damage from non-magical sources.Gravity guns deal force damage so they should affect ghosts.
Incorporeal is the big sticker, obviously, which is why it's come up so much.Now, if the tech guide provides some cool non-magical effects that can harm ghosts, there IS one potential viable build, which is really damn cool, even if somewhat disappointing that it doesn't fit very well in many campaigns.
No problem- take several movement feats and run away. It is a legit way of beating the encounter.
You can also kill INCORPOREAL undead with holy water, which is defined as Alchemical.
Also, the Fellowship was "Low-level?" I've stat'ed the characters out, and there is no way the main combatants of the group were below level 10Not sure where you're getting that. They tend to fight mostly orcs and other low-end enemies and even completely green and inexperienced combatants can hold their own among their ranks. Probably level 5 or 6 given their general capabilities.
Sam killed Shelob, who was part Deity (sorta). Merry and Eowyn killed the Witch-king of Angmar who was pretty Epic. There were also Wargs, Trolls, Fell-beasts, etc. Pippin killed a Olog-hai, which is a advanced troll.
Sam killed Shelob, who was part Deity (sorta). Merry and Eowyn killed the Witch-king of Angmar who was pretty Epic. There were also Wargs, Trolls, Fell-beasts, etc. Pippin killed a Olog-hai, which is a advanced troll.Also, the Fellowship was "Low-level?" I've stat'ed the characters out, and there is no way the main combatants of the group were below level 10Not sure where you're getting that. They tend to fight mostly orcs and other low-end enemies and even completely green and inexperienced combatants can hold their own among their ranks. Probably level 5 or 6 given their general capabilities.
shelob is a CR 5 ogre spider. It does the exact same thing as shelob.
An advanced troll is CR 5 (if it was advanced to begin with).Wargs are CR 3.
Them being around level 3 - 5 sounds about right.
With the fellowship being at 4 - 7, too.
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Because you arbitrarily said so. You're making up the rules and then complaining it is someone else' fault for not following those rules and demanding some "thematic re-skinning" of different rules to be parallel.
Batman being able to easily lift a ton or more while not looking like he ate an outhouse for breakfast that morning...it's not magic.
** facepalm **
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In regards to the Fellowship, some of the items that are often assumed to be magical never actually display any magical properties. Even some that do, such as Sting glowing in the presence of orcs or goblins, don't actually seem to carry any OTHER properties.
Sting
Dagger +0 of goblin/orc detection
-5 to Stealth in the presence of goblinoids or orcs
In regards to the Fellowship, some of the items that are often assumed to be magical never actually display any magical properties. Even some that do, such as Sting glowing in the presence of orcs or goblins, don't actually seem to carry any OTHER properties.
Sting
Dagger +0 of goblin/orc detection
-5 to Stealth in the presence of goblinoids or orcs
Kills Shelob. Hurts a troll when other weapons bounce off. Can be driven into a hard wooden beam with ease. And so forth.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how stating simple, undeniable facts about something like "Supernatural abilities are magical"...That's not really the problem, this is:
Batman being able to easily lift a ton or more while not looking like he ate an outhouse for breakfast that morning...it's not magic.Because you arbitrarily said so. You're making up the rules and then complaining it is someone else' fault for not following those rules and demanding some "thematic re-skinning" of different rules to be parallel.
"Because I arbitrarily said so"
Wat
You do realize the ENTIRE POINT of Batman is that he's a mundane guy, with no superpowers or magic, who fights crime with training, his wits, and cool gadgets, right?
As you'll recall, my initial statement was "level appropriate challenges".
In PF, this includes ghosts. In other media, it may not.
Why?
I'm having issues with your request:
1) Mundane guy or gal
2) No Ki, no Supernatural, no magic
3) Must be viable
4) Doesn't use magical gear
5) Able to defeat things immune to non magicI can do 1-4, I can't by definition make 5 work. It doesn't matter what universe or setting it's in, no purely mundane character can handle foes immune to all things mundane.
So I guess your complaint in PF is not character concepts, but the existence of one creature type (that I for one have rarely encountered) that you would be countered by.
Which I guess isn't much of a valid complaint in PF, since everyone has a hard counter and people still make viable characters.
My complaint is that there is a plethora of things immune to or highly resistant to non-magic in the first place.
That's because ghosts don't exist in that universe.
As you'll recall, my initial statement was "level appropriate challenges".
In PF, this includes ghosts. In other media, it may not.
Which I already said, too, so I'm guessing there's some selective listening going on here.
Anduril is the only sword shown to be inherently magical, and it seems to have ghost touch as its major thing.
In fact, I always read that "ghost touch" as more a "gets ghost touch against this one group of ghosts because they basically swore allegiance to it". Which is more like "ghost with vulnerability to a certain masterwork sword" than "sword with the ability to hurt ghosts". ;D
They have a vial that creates a cantrip (light) if you use a command word.
Gandalf, the equivalent of a high level outsider, has his staff.
Sting only glows when orcs are near, it never shows anything to say it makes frodo more effective or anything.
In the hobbit gandalf and Thorin come across a couple of old masterwork swords.
Anduril is the only sword shown to be inherently magical, and it seems to have ghost touch as its major thing.
Everything they have that isn't the property of a dude whose been adventuring for several Ages isn't more than a few thousand gold. The 9 of them together could easily be under 50k gold.
(wiki) "Sting was exceptionally sharp. Bilbo managed to thrust it without effort deep into a wooden beam at Rivendell. Frodo also wounded a troll in Moria, after Boromir notched his own sword with his attempt. Sting was useful in Shelob's Lair when it cut through Shelob's webs with ease, and also stabbed Shelob, being the first blade to ever do so. "
Glamdring and Orcrist were described as pretty high level swords.
The Phial of Galadrial could blind: (ME wiki) " Frodo used the mere touch of it to ease the thought of the One Ring when he, Sam Gamgee, and Gollum were watching the Witch-king lead his army out of Minas Morgul. He also used it while entering into Mordor to defend himself from the spider Shelob. When Shelob first approached, Sam reminded him of the "star-glass" and its light drove her away. Frodo gave the light to Sam to hold while he cut through Shelob's webbing and Sam wielded it when he attacked Shelob to rescue Frodo. The star-glass shone particularly bright in response to his indomitable spirit. He used it twice to get past the Two Watchers who guarded the tower of Cirith Ungol; the second time the phial shone out lightning-bright in tribute to his hardiness and faithfulness."
Aragorn was gifted with a "magical scabbard, any sword sheathed in this scabbard will never break"
Legalas had a unbreakable bow and string.
Gandalf had Narya, a powerful artifact.
The Bane daggers worn by the hobbits are pretty powerful, too.
...
Again, simply Holy water will kill incorporeal undead. It's listed as Alchemical, not magical.
Again, simply Holy water will kill incorporeal undead. It's listed as Alchemical, not magical....
EDIT: It's not created by non-magical methods, you are omitting the portion:
Any of these substances except for the everburning torch and holy water can be made by a character with the Craft (alchemy) skill.
Aragorn was gifted with a "magical scabbard, any sword sheathed in this scabbard will never break"
Okay, that's a bit of a stretch. That's just protecting the sword when it's not in use. It may be magic, but it sounds like a pretty lame enchantment to include on this list. :P