Is there ANY concept that can't be done using existing rules?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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graystone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


Incorporeal is the big sticker, obviously, which is why it's come up so much.

Now, if the tech guide provides some cool non-magical effects that can harm ghosts, there IS one potential viable build, which is really damn cool, even if somewhat disappointing that it doesn't fit very well in many campaigns.

Gravity guns deal force damage so they should affect ghosts.

Unfortunately incorporeal says that creatures of this type cannot take damage from non-magical sources.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There are a lot.
Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.

Boromir and Aragorn (unless you want to count Aragorn's sword as magic and not just a really cool symbolic weapon). The hobbits don't get to count because they have special daggers that can kill wraiths. Hmmm...

Virtually any character in Game of Thrones. And yeah, it's low-magic, but there are witches and wizards and the sword and they do pick fights with magic-less adversaries. Varys is a great example of someone who "hunts" magic-users and wins, though he doesn't exactly "fight" fair. :P

Giles (and arguably Buffy) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Aside from the odd "we must do this ritual!" episode, many of the characters manage to cope without any magic at all.

Sam and Dean from Supernatural. In fact, almost every human character in that show. No magic, just shotguns.

Every character in Homestuck, technically. But if we're gonna ignore the "Magic is fake as s&@!" rule, Karkat (and several other trolls) get by without any magic/weird science crap at all. They do get weapon upgrades, though, which are...kinda unclear.

Almost every single good guy in Pirates of the Caribbean.

The Ghostbusters.

Han Solo, Chewbacca and Leia (ignoring "midichlorian" nonsense).

Hell, I think even Eragon had the titular character's brother get pretty badass later on. He mighta gotten a magic weapon or something, though. Can't remember.

Sokka, Jet, Mai, Ty Lee and the Kyoshi Warriors (as well as those archers from that one episode who took down Aang) from ATLA.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Also, if we wanna talk "powerful", let's talk the guy who killed Hastur.

Old Man Henderson didn't have any magic. He just wanted to know where the muckle damred culti 'air eh namblies were keepin' his wee men.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There are a lot.
Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.

Boromir and Aragorn (unless you want to count Aragorn's sword as magic and not just a really cool symbolic weapon). The hobbits don't get to count because they have special daggers that can kill wraiths. Hmmm...

Virtually any character in Game of Thrones. And yeah, it's low-magic, but there are witches and wizards and the sword and they do pick fights with magic-less adversaries. Varys is a great example of someone who "hunts" magic-users and wins, though he doesn't exactly "fight" fair. :P

Giles (and arguably Buffy) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Aside from the odd "we must do this ritual!" episode, many of the characters manage to cope without any magic at all.

Sam and Dean from Supernatural. In fact, almost every human character in that show. No magic, just shotguns.

Every character in Homestuck, technically. But if we're gonna ignore the "Magic is fake as s%#*" rule, Karkat (and several other trolls) get by without any magic/weird science crap at all. They do get weapon upgrades, though, which are...kinda unclear.

Almost every single good guy in Pirates of the Caribbean.

The Ghostbusters.

Han Solo, Chewbacca and Leia (ignoring "midichlorian" nonsense).

Hell, I think even Eragon had the titular character's brother get pretty badass later on. He mighta gotten a magic weapon or something, though. Can't remember.

Sokka, Jet, Mai, Ty Lee and the Kyoshi Warriors (as well as those archers from that one episode who took down Aang) from ATLA.

Eragon's brother, Roran, in fact had no magic and he was quite the badass.


Also Roronoa Zoro from one piece. In a world with magic powers given to you via Devil Fruits he is awesome simply because of his insane training, strength, and 3 sword style.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There are a lot.
Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.

Boromir and Aragorn (unless you want to count Aragorn's sword as magic and not just a really cool symbolic weapon). The hobbits don't get to count because they have special daggers that can kill wraiths. Hmmm...

Virtually any character in Game of Thrones. And yeah, it's low-magic, but there are witches and wizards and the sword and they do pick fights with magic-less adversaries. Varys is a great example of someone who "hunts" magic-users and wins, though he doesn't exactly "fight" fair. :P

Giles (and arguably Buffy) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Aside from the odd "we must do this ritual!" episode, many of the characters manage to cope without any magic at all.

Sam and Dean from Supernatural. In fact, almost every human character in that show. No magic, just shotguns.

Every character in Homestuck, technically. But if we're gonna ignore the "Magic is fake as s*@~" rule, Karkat (and several other trolls) get by without any magic/weird science crap at all. They do get weapon upgrades, though, which are...kinda unclear.

Almost every single good guy in Pirates of the Caribbean.

The Ghostbusters.

Han Solo, Chewbacca and Leia (ignoring "midichlorian" nonsense).

Hell, I think even Eragon had the titular character's brother get pretty badass later on. He mighta gotten a magic weapon or something, though. Can't remember.

Sokka, Jet, Mai, Ty Lee and the Kyoshi Warriors (as well as those archers from that one episode who took down Aang) from ATLA.

Bromir died, Aragon had a magic sword

Lord Stark had a magic sword. They are also low level, like 1-3.
Still had rituals, Also how did they fight ghost? Were they high level? Cause no magic works just fin in PF at low level.
Sam and Dean use magic items
Homestuck is either magic or not fantasy
Pirates weren't high level, No one could fight ghost well either.
Ghostbusters weren't fantasy or high level.
None of them could handle the sith or ghost
He had magic items and wards cast on him, nor could he fight ghost
Kyoshi Warriors couldn't fight ghost either!


Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Eragon's brother, Roran, in fact had no magic and he was quite the badass.

He totally used magic items and even had wards cast on him by his brother.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
graystone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


Incorporeal is the big sticker, obviously, which is why it's come up so much.

Now, if the tech guide provides some cool non-magical effects that can harm ghosts, there IS one potential viable build, which is really damn cool, even if somewhat disappointing that it doesn't fit very well in many campaigns.

Gravity guns deal force damage so they should affect ghosts.
Unfortunately incorporeal says that creatures of this type cannot take damage from non-magical sources.

Incorporeal also says they can be effected by force effects. I'd say the force effect clause overrides the non-magic one.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Eragon's brother, Roran, in fact had no magic and he was quite the badass.
He totally used magic items and even had wards cast on him by his brother.

Yeah as soon as I saw you mention "Wards" it all came rushing back. I was mistaken. Although this just gives me an excuse to re read the book.


Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Also Roronoa Zoro from one piece. In a world with magic powers given to you via Devil Fruits he is awesome simply because of his insane training, strength, and 3 sword style.

I don't remember him being able to slay ghost and spirits.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Boromir and Aragorn (unless you want to count Aragorn's sword as magic and not just a really cool symbolic weapon). The hobbits don't get to count because they have special daggers that can kill wraiths. Hmmm...

Boromir died like a b#$%^. Aragorn never took on anything supernatural and actually killed it.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Virtually any character in Game of Thrones. And yeah, it's low-magic, but there are witches and wizards and the sword and they do pick fights with magic-less adversaries. Varys is a great example of someone who "hunts" magic-users and wins, though he doesn't exactly "fight" fair. :P

It's never really explained HOW he gets the magic user he hates. How do you know he didn't use magic items to accomplish this, or agents who had magic/magic items?

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Giles (and arguably Buffy) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
You answered that yourself...
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Aside from the odd "we must do this ritual!" episode

No different than "aside from the odd magical item"

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Sam and Dean from Supernatural. In fact, almost every human character in that show. No magic, just shotguns.

Every character in Homestuck, technically. But if we're gonna ignore the "Magic is fake as s~!&" rule, Karkat (and several other trolls) get by without any magic/weird science crap at all. They do get weapon upgrades, though, which are...kinda unclear.

Sokka, Jet, Mai, Ty Lee and the Kyoshi Warriors (as well as those archers from that one episode who took down Aang) from ATLA.

Never heard of any of these, personally, so I can't really address it.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Almost every single good guy in Pirates of the Caribbean

"is worthless when fighting against the supernatural." is the rest of that sentence. They have to break the curse to kill the skeleton crew, thus rendering them humans. They never manage to take Davy Jones' crew on in a one-on-one fight but have to use a magic item (the chest with the heart) to kill him. I guess you can make an argument for that piece of trash fourth movie, but I barely remember it, and there may have been magic items involved there.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The Ghostbusters.

Only argument I can see as valid thus far, but it's really more sci-fi than fantasy.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Han Solo, Chewbacca and Leia (ignoring "midichlorian" nonsense).

"...get their butts whooped by Vader or any other Sith every time."

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Hell, I think even Eragon had the titular character's brother get pretty badass later on. He mighta gotten a magic weapon or something, though. Can't remember.

Meh, neither can I. It wasn't exactly memorable.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Also Roronoa Zoro from one piece. In a world with magic powers given to you via Devil Fruits he is awesome simply because of his insane training, strength, and 3 sword style.
I don't remember him being able to slay ghost and spirits.

No but a guy who can cut a full sized ship in half with one swing still has his merits. I'll admit I may have not been paying attention to the question if that was a requirement. I just want "Weabo fighting magicz" I think anime does badass normal right and pathfinder characters should reach those levels.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal


graystone wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
graystone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


Incorporeal is the big sticker, obviously, which is why it's come up so much.

Now, if the tech guide provides some cool non-magical effects that can harm ghosts, there IS one potential viable build, which is really damn cool, even if somewhat disappointing that it doesn't fit very well in many campaigns.

Gravity guns deal force damage so they should affect ghosts.
Unfortunately incorporeal says that creatures of this type cannot take damage from non-magical sources.
Incorporeal also says they can be effected by force effects. I'd say the force effect clause overrides the non-magic one.

Oh boy a RAW conflict. As a GM I just let tech energy weapons hurt ghost.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:


Bromir died, Aragon had a magic sword

Oh, so now we're disqualifying characters that die? Boromir killed, like, twenty orcs—many of which were either advanced or had class levels. In a solo encounter, that's pretty damn impressive. The fact that he died doesn't mean he wasn't viable.

As for Aragorn, Tolkien never explicitly called Anduril magic.

Quote:
They are also low level, like 1-3.

Not...really. Game of Thrones is grittier, so yeah, no insane "I can fight off twenty orcs!" scenarios, but that doesn't make the people low-level. It just means it's a different game system. Which we never excluded—we just said "fantasy", not "Vancian magic, D&D-based fantasy".

Quote:
Still had rituals, Also how did they fight ghost? Were they high level? Cause no magic works just fin in PF at low level.

Buffy didn't fight ghosts, nor did Giles. Ghosts were resolved by the group magic-users, or by completing some sort of ritual. When it was a ritual, it wasn't Buffy—Buffy would swing the stick.

And yeah, they were damn high-level. Buffy saved the planet once or twice every year.

Quote:
Sam and Dean use magic items...

There are a couple times they use items like a special gun. The items aren't part of the characters, and generally, they use guns, explosives, or their own cunning.

Marcus wrote:
Homestuck is either magic or not fantasy

Not all fantasy has magic, actually—ever read Fly By Night? Neat book. ;)

Quote:
Ghostbusters weren't fantasy or high level.

Uh, Ghostbusters were absolutely fantasy, and what makes you say they weren't high-level? They sure made some effective gadgets.

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None of them could handle the sith or ghost

There were no ghosts. As for the sith, maybe not, but there were quite a few instances where clone troopers blew Jedi out of the air. In fact, all the force-users save one were killed by purely martial attacks like explosions, lasers, or decapitations.

Quote:
Kyoshi Warriors couldn't fight ghost either!

Okay, I'm not continuing this until you stop talking like that. Put the damn "s" after the "ghost" and maybe we can deal.


Quote:
They have to break the curse to kill the skeleton crew, thus rendering them humans.

How does that not count? They defeat a magical curse without using any magic.

Quote:
Boromir died like a b#$%^. Aragorn never took on anything supernatural and actually killed it.

Boromir was a badass and you're just jealous. As for Aragorn, that's setting a new standard—he defeated something like five wraiths. He may not have killed them, but he put them to flight. In a proper D&D game, he'd get at least partial XP for that.


And before it gets pointed out to me, "Rynjin's standards involve fighting ghost", that's in Pathfinder. There are few-to-no malevolent ghosts in Star Wars, Avatar, Eragon, GoT, etc. By contrast, Pathfinder has a ton of incorporeal enemies. So don't say "can't fight ghost, they are not viable by Rynjin's rules". They might not be viable in Pathfinder (because Pathfinder requires much fight ghost), but they're viable in their settings.


I started out interested in the question behind this thread, but it seems to have gotten derailed less than 1/6 of the way through, so here's a new one for people who actually want to talk about how to solve problems encountered in implementing certain types of characters in the current system.


Very, very few characters in mythology or literature have ever overcome magical obstacles without some magic of their own.

No-one in any Asian or Indian mythology ever did anything of note without the involvement of some kinda - even in the Romance of Three Kingdoms, there was SOME magic involved (far less than in the Creation of the Gods or Journey to the West, but still...).

Of special note is probably The Monkey King. He was already stupidly overpowered to begin with, having mastered every magic in existence; then he won Magic Golden Mail, the Boots of Cloud-Hopping, the Golden Cloud, the Fire-Bird Hat, and the Ruyi-Jingu-Bang; then he became Immortal and Invulnerable and decided to kick every god out of Heaven and declare himself Lord of All Existence. Superman's got NOTHING on Sun Wukong.

Greco-Roman Heroes were either magic by being Demigods (Herakles) or had magical assistance. Preseus and Achilles were Christmas Trees of magical arms & armor.

Germanic/Norse heroes almost always had at least a magical weapon. Some of the few exceptions may be the Icelandic Sagas, as they are much more down-to-earth, but the Aesir all had oodles of magical items, and there are magical weapons by the barrel-full in myths of the entire region.

African myths, when dealing with characters vs mages, often involve either light levels of Fetish magic, or the heroes defeating the villains by forcing the villains to invoke their Taboo, and thus immediately lose their magic. This is as close to "muggle beating mage" as you'll find.

Celtic Mythology is basically nothing but magic-on-magic-on-magic.

The 1001 Arabian Nights deals so heavily with magic that it's hard to find a story where the hero doesn't use magical items of SOME manner in order to beat magically-inclined enemies (Ali-Baba defeats the 40 Thieves through cunning, but the 40 Thieves didn't use Magic, either).

Medieval Romances, from The Song of Roland forward, often had either magically-talented warriors being blessed by God, or

And then there's King Arthur. A personal favorite. Arthur the Pendragon, son of Uther the Pendragon. DECKED OUT IN NO LESS THAN 10 MAGICAL WEAPONS, ARMOR, AND CLOTHING. Owned TWO magical swords - Clarent the Sword of the Stone, and Excalibur the Sword of the Lake. Owned a magical boat. Owned a Magical chair. Had the magical Head of Bran the Blessed buried in Camelot. Had THE Wizard of Wizards as an advisor. And that's not even counting the stuff owned by the Knights - the Green Sash, The Sword of the Red Hilt, Lancelot's Ring of Countermagic, The Shield of the Burning Dragon Knight, etc. And his buddies had enough magical junk they together held the Thirteen Treasures of Britain.

Non-magical characters like Robin Hood beat enemies who themselves aren't magical. Muggles beat Mages so rarely it's easier to list the times they do than the times they don't

---

Also, the Fellowship was "Low-level?" I've stat'ed the characters out, and there is no way the main combatants of the group were below level 10 (closer to lv15 or higher). Gandalf is an odd case, because while he has all the power of a lv20 caster (both Arcane and divine), he was also an Outsider, being one of the Maiar. Merry, Pippin, Sam, and Frodo are all low-level (probably around lv5-ish each), but even THEY had Magic to help them out. Frodo had Sting and Bilbo's Mithril shirt; Merry & Pippin both drank the Ent Water (didn't do much but make them grow, but still). Sam was the least-assisted in magic, but even he carried the Elven Bread, which is magic. Even if Anduril wasn't explicitly magical, there's a darn good chance you could assume that it's at least a +1 sword. The Fellowship had plenty of magic at their disposal.


actually, Roran didn't always recieve wards, he might have had them when fighting Dragon Riders and powerful archmages. but Against the Razzak when they first raided the village of Carvahall, Roran was effortless murdering supernatural warriors like ants with no magic and only with a completely nonmagical hammer that wasn't enchanted till late in the third book. the Razzak each possessed the strength of 15 men individually, and Roran, was killing hordes of them with a nonmagical hammer. Roran also killed the Krull chieftan before that hammer ever got it's first enchantment

Arya, a starved, emaciated elf girl with like no remaining mana, singlehandedly, on an empty stomach and the verge of death, killed 50 healthy and fresh Razzak with her bare hands. Arya also fought shades with completely nonmagical weapons and made them flee

Eragon, before he even learned his first cantrip, was killing Razzak with a completely nonmagical bow and arrows designed for hunting deer

Aladdin, purely through sheer cunning, without releasing the genie inside his ring, defeated a powerful evil sorcerer through nothing more than clever trickery

Gilgamesh, a completely nonmagical and mundane human, killed gods on a regular basis with completely nonmagical weapons by using the weight of the weapon to power their their defenses


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There are a lot.
Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.

Lessee, some have already been stolen, the most prominent being Zoro (and to an extent Sanji, and maybe Franky going the tech route) and the Winchesters.

While the bros use magic stuff on occasion, they don't usually NEED them (rock salt and iron do just fine for ghosts, frex). However, I'll admit they're a gray area, and stuff like the Colt and demon slaying knife put them closer to the disqualified category.

Also, nobody mentioned Rock Lee. Actually, better example, Might Guy. He uses no Ninjutsu or Genjutsu, pure physical power/Taijutsu.

He is the only character so far (up to the point I've read, haven't read in about a year now) never to lose a fight, and he's fought some of the more powerful characters in the manga.

Hmmm. Here, I'ma cheat a bit, and go to the Charles Atlas Superpower and Badass Normal TvTropes pages and see if I can jog my memory by scrolling the list of stuff.

Hmm, Ban Mido, of the Get Backers. While he does have a superpower (his Evil Eye, putting people into an illusion world), he gets by on most fights entirely using his monstrous grip strength and physical prowess.

Ling Yao from Fullmetal Alchemist can fight, purely hand to hand, with supernatural creatures who can rip normal humans to shreds without exerting any real effort.

Let's skip through the rest of anime, since I don't really watch a whole ton and many people will be like "Yeah but weaboo fightan magick".

So, Xena. She fights pretty much anything you can think of over the course of the series. No magic, usually, just a sword, a chakram, and a whole lot of AYYIYIYIYIYIYIYIYIYIIIIII!

Sabin, Final Fantasy VI. M#%$&+!$!%+@ suplexed a train. 'Nuff said. Also, pretty sure he can punch ghosts.

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Also Roronoa Zoro from one piece. In a world with magic powers given to you via Devil Fruits he is awesome simply because of his insane training, strength, and 3 sword style.
I don't remember him being able to slay ghost and spirits.

That's because he hasn't fought one yet.

If it exists, Zoro will figure out how to cut it. It's his thing.


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
Aladdin, purely through sheer cunning, without releasing the genie inside his ring, defeated a powerful evil sorcerer through nothing more than clever trickery

The Genie of the Ring transports Aladdin to Maghreb where the sorcerer had transported the Palace. When the sorcerer's brother tries to kill Aladdin, the Genie of the Lamp warned Aladdin.

Aladdin had magical help, so doesn't count as "mundane beat magic."

Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
Gilgamesh, a completely nonmagical and mundane human, killed gods on a regular basis with completely nonmagical weapons by using the weight of the weapon to power their their defenses

Gilgamesh is stated, over and over, to be a ONE-THIRD GOD. Don't ask me how you get 1/3 of anything, but it was CLEARLY stated that Gilgamesh was basically a Demigod - he was descended from Deities in one way or another. And his Axe is sometimes attested (in later works) to be magical itself.

Gilgamesh was magical.


other than transportation and warning, Aladdin still did the actual combat independently. the genie simply transported him and gave a warning that aladdin could have identified himself at any moment

you can state that gilgamesh might have been a demigod, but he still didn't cast any spells and his axe wasn't something i would consider a truly magical item, it was just heavier than most axes. a case of material.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There are a lot.
Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.
Lessee, some have already been stolen, the most prominent being Zoro (and to an extent Sanji, and maybe Franky going the tech route) and the Winchesters.

people keep bringing up Sam & Dean and forget they had a Gun that could kill anything but 4 things, a knife that could kill demons, a (hand spear?) that could kill anything. they had runes carved into their rib cage to make them unscryable, and a tattoo to make them unpossessable.

they were covered in magic. and this isn't even counting the fact that they know how to cast some divine magic and write runes from memory, and the hundreds of rituals they know how to prepare.


Rynjin wrote:


That's because he hasn't fought one yet.

If it exists, Zoro will figure out how to cut it. It's his thing.

I'd like to point out that Zoro actually DOES own magical swords, in a manner of speaking. One of his blades is cursed, and Wado Ichimonji is one of the 21 O-Wazamono swords, meaning its incredible qualities can be interpreted as it having latent "mystical abilities," especially when viewed from a Japanese perspective on swords (high-quality swords in Japanese tradition are thought to be inherently mystical and may have souls or Tsukumogami unto themselves)


Bandw2 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There are a lot.
Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.
Lessee, some have already been stolen, the most prominent being Zoro (and to an extent Sanji, and maybe Franky going the tech route) and the Winchesters.

people keep bringing up Sam & Dean and forget they had a Gun that could kill anything but 4 things, a knife that could kill demons, a (hand spear?) that could kill anything. they had runes carved into their rib cage to make them unscryable, and a tattoo to make them unpossessable.

they were covered in magic. and this isn't even counting the fact that they know how to cast some divine magic and write runes from memory, and the hundreds of rituals they know how to prepare.

They killed a s@++ ton of things without the artifact level items they had access to at times and most of their magic seemed to fall into Use Magic Device territory as opposed to actual magic use per Pathfinder rules. Except when Sam took levels in Psion via demon blood, but that's third party territory.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


That's because he hasn't fought one yet.

If it exists, Zoro will figure out how to cut it. It's his thing.

I'd like to point out that Zoro actually DOES own magical swords, in a manner of speaking. One of his blades is cursed, and Wado Ichimonji is one of the 21 O-Wazamono swords, meaning its incredible qualities can be interpreted as it having latent "mystical abilities," especially when viewed from a Japanese perspective on swords (high-quality swords in Japanese tradition are thought to be inherently mystical and may have souls or Tsukumogami unto themselves)

But there's really nothing magical about the swords. At the most it translates to having adamantine swords.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
chaoseffect wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There are a lot.
Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.
Lessee, some have already been stolen, the most prominent being Zoro (and to an extent Sanji, and maybe Franky going the tech route) and the Winchesters.

people keep bringing up Sam & Dean and forget they had a Gun that could kill anything but 4 things, a knife that could kill demons, a (hand spear?) that could kill anything. they had runes carved into their rib cage to make them unscryable, and a tattoo to make them unpossessable.

they were covered in magic. and this isn't even counting the fact that they know how to cast some divine magic and write runes from memory, and the hundreds of rituals they know how to prepare.

They killed a s+%+ ton of things without the artifact level items they had access to at times and most of their magic seemed to fall into Use Magic Device territory as opposed to actual magic use per Pathfinder rules. Except when Sam took levels in Psion via demon blood, but that's third party territory.

the most current seasons have them running around with the anti-demon knife and anti-angel spear thing almost all the time. also, Sam retrained and is no longer a psion. though like I said, he can cast divine magic from memory. basically banishment I guess.

EDIT: also since incorporeal can only be effected by magic, rod-iron is magical I guess.


Ehhh, my understanding was that they were essentially Masterwork++ swords, not magical. They don't seem to confer upon him any extra abilities other than being somewhat sharper and much better balanced than other blades. He seemed to do just fine with salvaged cutlasses despite complaining about them being inferior.

The cursed one was magical to an extent, but it was only so in a detrimental sense, it was initially trying to fight against him a bit, cutting what he didn't want to cut. Once he beat that tendency out of it, it was just a normal (if very well made) sword.

And it's kinda moot since that one was destroyed anyway.


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:

other than transportation and warning, Aladdin still did the actual combat independently. the genie simply transported him and gave a warning that aladdin could have identified himself at any moment

you can state that gilgamesh might have been a demigod, but he still didn't cast any spells and his axe wasn't something i would consider a truly magical item, it was just heavier than most axes. a case of material.

Any magical assistance is still magical assistance. I agree Aladdin is a case of brains-over-brawn, but had the Genies not helped him, he'd've still been a street urchin.

And Gilgamesh being a Demigod was the source of his inhuman strength, just like Herakles. Remember that the only thing in the universe which could match him for power was Enkidu, who had to be made by the gods by hand.

Gilgamesh may not have USED magic, but his nature was by no means pure-mortal.


And the only real extra quality the latest sword Zoro got has is being REALLY heavy.


Bandw2 wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There are a lot.
Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.
Lessee, some have already been stolen, the most prominent being Zoro (and to an extent Sanji, and maybe Franky going the tech route) and the Winchesters.

people keep bringing up Sam & Dean and forget they had a Gun that could kill anything but 4 things, a knife that could kill demons, a (hand spear?) that could kill anything. they had runes carved into their rib cage to make them unscryable, and a tattoo to make them unpossessable.

they were covered in magic. and this isn't even counting the fact that they know how to cast some divine magic and write runes from memory, and the hundreds of rituals they know how to prepare.

They killed a s+%+ ton of things without the artifact level items they had access to at times and most of their magic seemed to fall into Use Magic Device territory as opposed to actual magic use per Pathfinder rules. Except when Sam took levels in Psion via demon blood, but that's third party territory.
the most current seasons have them running around with the anti-demon knife and anti-angel spear thing almost all the time. also, Sam retrained and is no longer a psion. though like I said, he can cast divine magic from memory. basically banishment I guess.

Ritual magic isn't really covered to well by Pathfinder, so it's a bit of a grey area I think. Maybe he has levels in a hyper specialized prestige that gives an anti-outsider effect as an SLA so many times per day.

Also didn't cold iron also have some affect on ghosts in Supernatural or am I misremembering? I kinda lost interest after the whole Armageddon scenario.


Jake the dog from adventure time


Greylurker wrote:
Jake the dog from adventure time

Obviously used the Race Builder.


Chaotic Fighter wrote:
But there's really nothing magical about the swords. At the most it translates to having adamantine swords.

As I said, coming from Japanese tradition, that makes it magical/mystical. Swords have souls in Japanese tradition, and the higher-quality the sword, the more powerful the soul - that's just as much a fact as "angels reside in Heaven" is to Western audiences. Even if it doesn't show transformation or glowing energy like the Tes'saiga in Inu-Yasha, a katana like Wado Ichimonji is understood to either have a spirit or an outright Tsukumogami residing within it to a Japanese reader, and thus be in part mystical.


chaoseffect wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Jake the dog from adventure time
Obviously used the Race Builder.

This.


Artanthos wrote:


In this case the argument is, "A character with no special abilities cannot do special things."

Oddly enough, your argument is rather circular too. Don't throw rocks in glass houses and that jazz.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Giles (and arguably Buffy) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Aside from the odd "we must do this ritual!" episode, many of the characters manage to cope without any magic at all.

Slayers are pretty magical though.

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
weren't high level.

Not relevant. There are low CR incorporeal enemies.

chbgraphicarts wrote:
Greco-Roman Heroes were either magic by being Demigods (Herakles)

You're conflating being magical with being superhuman. Pathfinder martials are already superhuman.

Quote:
Owned TWO magical swords - Clarent the Sword of the Stone, and Excalibur the Sword of the Lake.

He had a magic spear and a magic dagger too.

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Also, the Fellowship was "Low-level?" I've stat'ed the characters out, and there is no way the main combatants of the group were below level 10

Not sure where you're getting that. They tend to fight mostly orcs and other low-end enemies and even completely green and inexperienced combatants can hold their own among their ranks. Probably level 5 or 6 given their general capabilities.

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Gandalf is an odd case, because while he has all the power of a lv20 caster (both Arcane and divine)

Not sure where you're getting this one either, he doesn't ever perform any particularly spectacular acts of magic.

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Gilgamesh is stated, over and over, to be a ONE-THIRD GOD. Don't ask me how you get 1/3 of anything, but it was CLEARLY stated that Gilgamesh was basically a Demigod - he was descended from Deities in one way or another.

Again, superhuman, not explicitly magical. There's a difference and Pathfinder martials are already superhuman (see: jumping out of an airplane and taking inconsequential amounts of damage) so the distinction is moot.

Rynjin wrote:
Also, nobody mentioned Rock Lee. Actually, better example, Might Guy. He uses no Ninjutsu or Genjutsu, pure physical power/Taijutsu.

As loathe as I am to say anything nice about that anime, those two characters I feel are particularly exceptional examples of what an appropriately capable high level martial character should look like.


Rynjin wrote:
Also, nobody mentioned Rock Lee. Actually, better example, Might Guy. He uses no Ninjutsu or Genjutsu, pure physical power/Taijutsu.

He uses chrakra. He just has trouble with Jutsu. The Eight Gates are on the chrakra pathway system.

So no, not even Rock Lee is the pure mundane guy.


Rynjin wrote:
Ehhh, my understanding was that they were essentially Masterwork++ swords, not magical. They don't seem to confer upon him any extra abilities other than being somewhat sharper and much better balanced than other blades.

Isn't that basically what enhancement bonus is?

Magic swords in PF don't have to have special abilities.


anlashok wrote:


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Giles (and arguably Buffy) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Aside from the odd "we must do this ritual!" episode, many of the characters manage to cope without any magic at all.
Slayers are pretty magical though.

Hence the "arguably". Slayers are basically just a rather overpowered race with +8 to all physical scores...except for the prophecy dreams.

Quote:


You're conflating being magical with being superhuman. Pathfinder martials are already superhuman.

This. Plus, by that logic, a lot of PF races are magic—hobgoblins were genetically engineered!

Quote:


Not sure where you're getting that. They tend to fight mostly orcs and other low-end enemies and even completely green and inexperienced combatants can hold their own among their ranks. Probably level 5 or 6 given their general capabilities.

Well, some of those orcs were more powerful than others (the Uruk-Hai, for instance). Trolls were depicted as pretty damn nasty, too—they basically acted like Rock Trolls from Pathfinder, which are, what, CR 8? And those were put in amid hundreds of ordinary orcs.

Three of them (Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn) chased about thirty Uruk-Hai. Chased. As in, they were prepared to fight them and could have won. Even assuming each orc just has one level in fighter (and orcs are pretty OP to begin with), that's a pretty high-level encounter. :P


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Also, nobody mentioned Rock Lee. Actually, better example, Might Guy. He uses no Ninjutsu or Genjutsu, pure physical power/Taijutsu.

He uses chrakra. He just has trouble with Jutsu. The Eight Gates are on the chrakra pathway system.

So no, not even Rock Lee is the pure mundane guy.

Actually, Rock Lee is explicitly stated not to be able to manipulate chakra. Everything he does is 100% pure physical power (which is only 1/2 of what makes chakra, chakra).

And chakra isn't magical in-universe anyway. Everyone has it, everyone can use it, it just takes training.

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Ehhh, my understanding was that they were essentially Masterwork++ swords, not magical. They don't seem to confer upon him any extra abilities other than being somewhat sharper and much better balanced than other blades.

Isn't that basically what enhancement bonus is?

Magic swords in PF don't have to have special abilities.

Not really. They don't increase his damage or anything, nor significantly increase his accuracy or anything else.

As I said before, he can fight just fine with salvaged cutlasses, they just tend to be disposable swords; they break easily.

His swords are, at best, an adamantine equivalent, not magical. Everything he does is under his own raw power and skill.


anlashok wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Greco-Roman Heroes were either magic by being Demigods (Herakles)
You're conflating being magical with being superhuman. Pathfinder martials are already superhuman.

Demigods have bonuses to stats, and often assistance from the gods, that a normal D&D race doesn't explain. Herakles wasn't born as a lv20 Brawler - he was already strong enough as a child that he killed two snakes right after being born. And he was invulnerable enough that even the Hydra venom couldn't kill him. He diverted a RIVER. NO amount of BS can cause you to do that in Pathfinder, even if you go up to lv40 or 50 (which Gods are officially in the Deities section of the 3.5 SRD)

Achilles was dipped in the River Styx in addition to being superhumanly strong, etc.

Besides Herakles, the other Heroes all had magical assistance of some kind or another.

Quote:
Quote:
Owned TWO magical swords - Clarent the Sword of the Stone, and Excalibur the Sword of the Lake.
He had a magic spear and a magic dagger too.

I think you missed the part where I mentioned him owning 10 magical arms & armor. Spear, Dagger, Armor, Mantel, etc.

Quote:
Quote:
Also, the Fellowship was "Low-level?" I've stat'ed the characters out, and there is no way the main combatants of the group were below level 10
Not sure where you're getting that. They tend to fight mostly orcs and other low-end enemies and even completely green and inexperienced combatants can hold their own among their ranks. Probably level 5 or 6 given their general capabilities.

The shear number of orcs upped the CR of each encounter, as per basic rules. If you're going by the books, they're probably somewhere around lv10 - in the Battle of Hornberg, Gimli slays 41 Orcs, while Legolas slays 40. A body count that high requires feats like Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Toughness, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave... it has to be pretty high, and you have to have a lot of HP, or else that many attacks against you WILL get through eventually; a lv5 character just isn't bulky enough. Going by the movies, they're even more insane, and require even more feats to pull of some of the things they do.

Quote:
Quote:
Gandalf is an odd case, because while he has all the power of a lv20 caster (both Arcane and divine)
Not sure where you're getting this one either, he doesn't ever perform any particularly spectacular acts of magic.

Gandalf solo'd a BALROG. Balrogs are Balors. Balors are CR20. Gandalf would need to be close to or at lv20 in order to do that.

On top of this, Maia are known to have been Epic in power (they are one step below the Valar), and the Five Wizards' power was limited by Eru-Illuvatar. Gandalf had power not unlike Sauron at his disposal, but could not use it because Eru-Illuvitar commanded that he mustn't.

Books in the History of Middle Earth, which are written based on the notes of Tolkien, describe some of Gandalf's exploits, and it seems that in the past, killing Balrogs and Dragons wasn't out of the question for the old Wizard - and THAT was when he was The Grey, and thus significantly less powerful than he was when he became The White.


Quote:
Gandalf solo'd a BALROG. Balrogs are Balors. Balors are CR20.

Alternate interpretation:

A balrog got solo'd by GANDALF. Gandalf clearly has no high-level spells, so balrogs must be about mid-level. Balors are CR20. Balrogs might be the inspiration for balors, but must not be the same thing.

I have literally no opinion on Gandalf's Power Levels, I'm just pointing that out. :P


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Quote:
Gandalf solo'd a BALROG. Balrogs are Balors. Balors are CR20.

Alternate interpretation:

A balrog got solo'd by GANDALF. Gandalf clearly has no high-level spells, so balrogs must be about mid-level. Balors are CR20. Balrogs might be the inspiration for balors, but must not be the same thing.

I have literally no opinion on Gandalf's Power Levels, I'm just pointing that out. :P

Again, HAD and USED are two different things.

Gandalf was literally FORBIDDEN to do "too much" by Illuvatar. Even though he had magical power to rival Sauron (though not Morgoth), he wasn't allowed to use it or else go against God's will.

During the First Age when Dragons and Balrogs were running amok alongside Morgoth's other forces, he was allowed to dole out righteous fury via magic a lot more, but once the First Men were born, all five of the Wizards had to tone down their magic and were only allowed to Guide, never to Lead.


Viable non-magical build?

Power armor+all the cybernetic augmentation+all the grenades+a railgun=viable build. Done, everyone pack up and go home, debate over.

Unless you run into ghosts. Then I can't help you there and this build melts faster than a stick of butter against molten lava.


Rynjin wrote:

And chakra isn't magical in-universe anyway. Everyone has it, everyone can use it, it just takes training.

Everything he does is under his own raw power and skill.

Technically, everyone can learn to do magic as well. The fact that people can train to do something (i.e. wizards), does not mean its not magical. The most iconic magic class is the class that literally says "random smart guy has learned to wield the power of the universe."

Just because anyone can learn to do something does not mean that its not magical.


Honest question: How do you make MacGyver in PF?

He may have "worked magic" with bubble gum and duct tape, but he didn't actually use magic. He also didn't use guns, didn't carry weapons and wasn't really a viable combatant (unless you gave him some gum).

I can see a bard maybe being able to get a similar flavour (and a wizard, I guess, if you ignore the magic) but that ain't MacGyver.

Maybe one of the new technology archetypes? Something like an artificer might work...?


I never really understood why characters with no magical abilities competing with the casters was such blasphemy in D&D... Video games never have a problem making them equal. The best class in Etrian Odyssey is the Survivalist, which is essentially a spell-less Ranger. The most versatile class in Fire Emblem is the Pegasus Knight, which is a dex-based cavalier. BB Hood of Darkstalkers fame is a human girl with no special powers other than her ability with explosives and yet she is able to walk into the realm of demons and come out with trophies.

These games assume that whatever your tool set is, or whatever the source of your powers is, it should be strong enough to hang with everyone else in the game. That's just... how game design works.


Ashoka wrote:

Honest question: How do you make MacGyver in PF?

He may have "worked magic" with bubble gum and duct tape, but he didn't actually use magic. He also didn't use guns, didn't carry weapons and wasn't really a viable combatant (unless you gave him some gum).

I can see a bard maybe being able to get a similar flavour (and a wizard, I guess, if you ignore the magic) but that ain't MacGyver.

Maybe one of the new technology archetypes? Something like an artificer might work...?

Simply having a high-enough INT and Craft would allow for absurd things. An Expert NPC could do that.

I once had a Barbarian (back in 3.5) that took Craft (Woodworking) to make barrels... one time, to save the party money, I cut down a tree to craft it into a pretty-simple cart... and rolled a natural 20. The result was high enough that I ended up crafting a Masterwork Carriage in a matter of hours.


Not to mention how, in TF2, a demoman wielding a broken, malfunctioning rocket launcher as a club can compete with a demoman wielding a magic, demon-possessed sword. Demons? Lasers? If y'all had more gadgets for killin', y'wouldn't need so many for magickin'.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There are a lot.
Name some. Because even the low level fellowship of the ring had magic weapons. A high level concept without magic or ki being able to fight ghost and other high level concepts.

Look, it's really simple, they're all Scotsmen. Guts, for example, despite packing a sword bathed in the blood of dragons and demons and capable of chopping through stone wasn't magic because it was re-themed as animu power by virtue of being REALLY STRONG and RULE OF COOL.

A monk who re-themes his abilities as amazing skill instead of magic is unacceptable and wrong. Because...Reasons.

And there are thousands upon thousands of stories of non-magic dudes fighting wisps and incorporeal critters with not-magic and totally winning without having to come up with weird workarounds like finding holy ground, tricking the critter into a holy water font, or convincing the restless spirit to know peace through the power of talking it out. Apparently.

Rynjin wrote:

Actually, Rock Lee is explicitly stated not to be able to manipulate chakra. Everything he does is 100% pure physical power (which is only 1/2 of what makes chakra, chakra).

And chakra isn't magical in-universe anyway. Everyone has it, everyone can use it, it just takes training.

Waitwaitwait, so suddenly the monk and his supernatural impossible abilities are not supernatural?

Oh right, Chunin are Scotsmen.

a buncha folk wrote:
...Sam and Dean from Supernatural...

Were using Ghost Salt Shotgun shells and magic rituals to banish spirits. Oh hey I just solved your irreconcilable equation. Are we done here?

Moving on, how does one go about making a vow of poverty but Still within the powers/abilities of 60% WBL monk character work? A true ascetic who forgoes possessions or the trappings of a normal life?

I used to know how to do it, but that was a different system.

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