Is there ANY concept that can't be done using existing rules?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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thegreenteagamer wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The real question is, is Batman Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Chaotic Evil?
Wow, and I thought Batman vs Superman was off topic internet cliche shenanigans, arguing Batman's alignment is about as off topic internet cliche shenanigans as it can get short of linking cat videos.

Oh?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I've got three. The kicker is they're all based on existing Pathfinder characters.

1) In every Pathfinder novel I've read (which is everything up through Skinwalkers), there are plenty of spellcasters, but I have yet to see a single caster say anything along the lines of "Oh crap, I totally have that spell. I just didn't prepare it." Or "I just cast that spell. Why did I not prepare it twice."

Obviously I'm not talking about Sorcerers, Oracles, or Clerics casting heal spells. But with prepared divine spellcasters, you never read them unable to do something because they could have prepared X spell that day but didn't. They're either freaking omniscient or they're a preview for a new Divine version of the Arcanist. There's a "Cobblestone Druid" in Blood of the City and she never doesn't have the spell she needs.

And it's the same for prepared Arcane spellcasters. All the Vancian stuff players have to put up with, these casters never do. I mean, the closest thing to a prepared caster I've ever seen in a Pathfinder novel is the main character in Dagger of Trust. In the morning, he goes over the spells he knows and does 90% of the casting of the spell then, awaiting only the proper time to complete the spell. Except he's totally a Bard and should not be preparing anything.

Of course, the solution to this is obvious: play an Arcanist or a White Mage Arcanist. Yeah, the Arcanist may be OP, but let's face it. The Arcanist is the only prepared arcane spellcaster in the entire game and always has been. Golarion has never seen a Wizard. Ezren? Totally not a Wizard.

2) In Master of Devils, Radovan and Count Varian Jeggare are on the continent of Tian Xia. They lose most of their possessions, get separated, and train as Monks (Radovan by the wandering one-armed Sorcerer-Monk Burning Cloud Devil, Jeggare in a monastery). We don't have specifics for Jeggare, but Radovan goes as far as learning Abundant Step and Quivering Palm, so he got at least 15th level. It's implied that Jeggare got about as good.

After losing their possessions, Jeggare gets new clothes (implied to be well-made, but not magic), replacements for some of his spellbook and riffle scrolls, and one magic item, the Shadowless Sword. Radovan gets new clothes, durable clothes specifically called out as having additional protection magically imbued into them (in 4E, this would be Magic Cloth Armor that Monks can totally use, but I'm not sure what this is in Pathfinder), and two well-made daggers that are not implied to be magic at all.

Several levels of advancement and maybe two magic items between the two of them. They're not decked out with magic items and they don't need to be. Fantasy heroes in most literature are typically treated on the following assumption "IF they have A magic item". In Pathfinder, if you don't have two scrolls of every spell you can cast, several wands for any 3rd level or lower spell you might need, magic armor, backup magic armor, a +5 Frost, Flaming, Corrosive, Thunder, Shocking Longsword and four backups for it, as well as all the necessary +6 Amulets, Belts, and Bracelets of Game-Math-Correcting, you're doing it wrong.

Heck, in the Pathfinder comics (at least up to the end of the second arc where they leave Sandpoint for Magnimar), I think I've only seen one magic item in the hands of any of the heroes. A scroll of Glitterdust that Seoni used to distract the black dragon. What, twelve issues? Two story arcs. Two moderate adventures. One (expendable) magic item.

So I'd like to play Pathfinderr without having to be Gear, the magical bag of equipment (and oh yeah, I guess there's a fleshy meatbag that carries him around, but pay him no mind).

3) Going back to Radovan in Master of Devils, he is specifically recruited/kidnapped by Burning Cloud Devil to carry out BCD's revenge on a Celestial Dragon (not Shenron from DBZ, but you'd be forgiven for thinking so). Radovan is selected for two reasons. One, the technique to kill the dragon requires two arms and BCD only has one. Two, Radovan, being a tiefling, has a unique and necessary ki that's a combination of mortal and infernal. And I remind you he's specifically called out as being able to abundant step.

So he is a ki-using Monk. Not a Brawler. Not a Martial Artist. Not an Unarmed archetype Fighter. A Monk. Reading the novel, you get an impression of how Lawful he is.

He isn't.

He consistently practices his new moves. Even in later novels, he's seen practicing his forms with Jeggare in the mornings. But he does not respect authority. Not by virtue of it being authority. If anything, he grows to respect the people in authority that he does respect despite their socially-declared positions. Jeggare is his friend first, his employer/business partner second, and a count distant last. Nor does he care particularly about society functioning smoothly or making sure he's contributing to that.

So I'd like to play a Pathfinder non-Lawful Monk. That can use ki. And continue taking Monk levels. Like a character I read in a Pathfinder novel.

Possible solutions within the game: he's using one racial trait to be treated as an Aasimar and using a second racial trait to be able to continue taking Monk levels even if NG or Neutral. No, he's specifically CG (thank you Pathfinder Wikia).

He's actually a Brawler using an archetype that grants a small number of ki points and a limited selection of Qinggong abilities. Oh, we wish.

He's lawful, but the GM told him he could be lawful as long as he was disciplined on the Disciplined/Unruly axis, even if he was otherwise the most Chaotic SoB that ever lived. Yeah, how many of you would that fly with? Monks are lawful in the discipline aspect, but not necessarily any other, but if the player keeps on disrespecting people in authority or acting without concern for society's smooth operation and doesn't necessarily make a point of saying that he's going through his forms each and every morning, how many would keep him lawful?

Create an entirely new class that's just like the old class but open to more concepts. After all, Assassins have to be evil, but Slayers can be lawful good and even multiclass with Paladins. Cough*even though Slayers and Assassins are totally the SAME CONCEPT!!*Cough

Get rid of alignment. The best solution, the one that makes way for so many concepts while not harming any existing ones.

...

So those are some Pathfinder concepts that cannot be done using existing rules.


Rynjin wrote:
Belefauntes wrote:

Concept that I have yet to be able to figure out how to do: An EFFECTIVE divine martial artist.

Sure, you can be a cleric who dips monk, but that hurts your cleric, and makes you a weak martial artist. Do an even split? Now you're gimped both ways. How about an archetype for the Cleric class built around the idea of an unarmored, impoverished disciple who travels the land helping the sick, hurt and needy?

Cloistered Cleric, you say!? Well, how about one that doesn't SUCK!? The Cloistered Cleric is the closest I could get to this concept, but it's gimped in every way possible! It should be listed as an archetype for the Adept NPC class! :P

Sacred Fist Warpriest.

Of course, AFTER I posted that divine martial artist thing (but before I read the responses), I discovered the Sacred Fist Warpriest. Hahaha! And yeah, that's very close to exactly what I've been looking for for quite some time. My only issue is losing the Focus Weapon/Sacred Weapon combination in favor of the monk's Flurry of Blows/Improved Unarmed Strike combination. I feel you lose more than you gain there, plus it precludes the option of choosing a monk-ish weapon as your Sacred Weapon because now you can only get the Sacred Weapon-like bonus with unarmed strikes. My vision had my character using a quarterstaff/bo staff as his weapon of choice. I may have to house-rule out the FoB/IUS in favor of the main class' FW/SW combo. FoB is the only real bonus here, but you can simulate that with the Two-Weapon Fighting tree on a double weapon.

Incidentally, I have always taken issue with Weapon Finesse when regarding the Bo/Quarterstaff. As a martial artist, I am well aware this is an extremely finesse-able weapon. Sure, it's a double weapon and, if used in that manner, half of the weapon is finesse-able... which means you're basically clubbing like a neanderthal with the main hand. What's up with that? Hahaha! Even the Quarterstaff Master feat doesn't let you use it like as a light weapon. How the heck is a 4lb slender pole less finesse-able than a mace? Bo staves weigh 1lb less, and still suffer the same issue.

Is there any (legal) way to get finesse with a bo staff or quarterstaff in Pathfinder? One could argue a quarterstaff is often iron-shod on one end, thereby eliminating it as an option... but the bo staff? This is a 6' stick which tapers in at both ends, designed to be light, flexible, and quick.


The anime Soul Eater
Concept centers around pairs of students one who turns into a weapon and the other who wields it. Powers manifest as the resonence between the two improves (Big slashy energy waves, flight, detection magic, increased melee damage, etc....)


Int-based divine caster. It just doesn't exist. The closest is probably a witch.

Divine casters as focussed on casting as wizards are. You can't get there, because the chassis always gives you 3/4 BAB and light armour.

Similarly, arcane caster with an animal companion. Doesn't happen. You can do it by multi-classing, but it's not really a good idea.

Apparently book-smart people are never spiritual and also never keen on animals.

Inherent shapeshifting (someone else must have mentioned that).

Any race that isn't listed. The conceptual space for different races is infinite, so that's kind of fair.

Non-humanoid races.

Races that can just fly. Like, always, not at level ten after a feat chain.

Elven druid-sorceress crossover concepts. They're pretty common outside D&D-based games, but the sharp divide between divine and arcane magic within D&D space renders the concept difficult if not unplayable.

Arcane casters who use their amazing mastery of time and space to bring happy positive energy to heal people. The closest is probably a white mage arcanist, but that isn't really a spell, it's flavoured weirdly. Given that arcane casters can call negative energy from the negative energy plane, there's no metaphysical reason they shouldn't be able to do the same from the positive.

Anyone using a pike. Somehow a polearm more than 10' long doesn't exist, ever.

Anyone using a staff that's 8' long or more. Somehow staves are always too short to have reach.

Sundering weapons that make sense. Apparently a lucerne hammer is good at sundering armour. But it isn't good at sundering shields, because rigid wooden shields are harder to destroy with a blunt impact than bendable mail is?

Casting that isn't quadratic or higher in power advancement. ;-)


Sylvan bloodline Sorcerers get an animal companion...

Strix can fly from level 1...

The last Int based divine caster was the Archivist from Heroes of Horror in 3.5

hedge Witch grants a few healing abilities and the Witch class has cure spells...

Oh and the Theologian and Ecclesitheurge would like to have a chat with you regarding casting clerics...


Oh, I'd jump on an archivist-style class for Pathfinder in a heartbeat.


Kudaku wrote:
Oh, I'd jump on an archivist-style class for Pathfinder in a heartbeat.

oh yeah! Especially if it retained the Archivist's ability to learn ALL divine spells, that would be awesome.


D&D concepts:

Eberron artificer.

Warlock or Dragonfire Adept with at will blasting.

Dragon Shaman aura buffing.

Psionic classes - in particular the soulknife (my understanding is that the excellent Dreamscarred versions don't count as they are 3rd party).

Media fantasy concepts:

Avatar bending magic. Some individual spells come close to specific powers but I'd like to see how close the concepts can come.

Xanth style one magic power characters.

Tempus from Thieves World. Regenerating cursed paladin/champion of a nasty god.


Voadam wrote:

D&D concepts:

Eberron artificer.

Warlock or Dragonfire Adept with at will blasting.

Dragon Shaman aura buffing.

Psionic classes - in particular the soulknife (my understanding is that the excellent Dreamscarred versions don't count as they are 3rd party).

Media fantasy concepts:

Avatar bending magic. Some individual spells come close to specific powers but I'd like to see how close the concepts can come.

Xanth style one magic power characters.

Tempus from Thieves World. Regenerating cursed paladin/champion of a nasty god.

Well there is ONE bender...

The Watersinger Archetype for the bard is effectively a Waterbender (they can manipulate water and use it to make things like ladders and bridges and can attack with it.)


K177Y C47 wrote:

Well there is ONE bender...

The Watersinger Archetype for the bard is effectively a Waterbender (they can manipulate water and use it to make things like ladders and bridges and can attack with it.)

Oh. My. Goodness. A bard archetype appears to be able to hold it's own, that interests me and doesn't have the word "dervish" in the title.


In addition, Qinggong Monks can take Mighty Fist of the Earth and Stone Shield as ki powers for an Earthbender.


Guess who didn't read all 50 pages of this thread! ME. Here's a flashback to page one:

JoeJ wrote:

A knight who rides a dragon, with whom he communicates telepathically.

Been playing a Summoner 4 / Cavalier 1 for months now. Just hit 6th level and I get wings. It's a charging lance-based build, and the eidolon/dragon has "Death From Above".

I want for nothing in the dragonrider trope now. It's been absolutely perfect. Having to enlarge the eidolon all the time is a bit of a pain, but that's what wands are for.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:

Well there is ONE bender...

The Watersinger Archetype for the bard is effectively a Waterbender (they can manipulate water and use it to make things like ladders and bridges and can attack with it.)

Oh. My. Goodness. A bard archetype appears to be able to hold it's own, that interests me and doesn't have the word "dervish" in the title.

For those that don't know what this is

Waterstrike (Su) wrote:

At 3rd level, the watersinger can spend 1 round of bardic performance to command any water he is currently manipulating with his watersong performance to lash out and strike an opponent with a slam attack. The watersinger uses his base attack bonus and Charisma bonus to make this attack, and deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage plus his Charisma bonus. The attack can originate from any square of water the bard is manipulating, and the water can get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one, but cannot make attacks of opportunity. The water can make multiple attacks per round if your base attack bonus allows you to do so. At 10th level, the water's slam damage increases to 1d8 points and the water gains a reach of 10 feet. At 15th level, the water's slam damage increases to 2d6 points. At 20th level, the water's slam damage increases to 2d8 points.

This performance replaces inspire competence.

This is actually a pretty legit ability. Effectively the water becomes your weapon. Sadly you really can't enchant it though, but it it can attak from anywhere along its "body" (which can be A LOT of places) and it grants flanking without having to get up close. The other nifty thing is that it doesn't list any type of action to manipulate the water. The only stipulation is that you have to be controlling it with the Watersong performance. Depending on how you want to look at it, this could mean being able to get your BAB in free attacks. This allows the watersinger to do some REALLY mean stuff (like flanking with himself)


Greylurker wrote:

The anime Soul Eater

Concept centers around pairs of students one who turns into a weapon and the other who wields it. Powers manifest as the resonence between the two improves (Big slashy energy waves, flight, detection magic, increased melee damage, etc....)

Moss speaker (or was it mold speaker?) from Legacy of Fire is a Growth Weapon (weapon that increases in power as the character levels). It's not "anime power" levels, but that's a cross-genre issue. I mean, you can't blow up the moon with a magical ki blast like Goku either, but that's kind of expected.

The "Ki blast" power in general works with either a level of sorceror and magic missile. It simply won't break planets.

I don't have a Paizo-rules option for turning into a weapon, but I'm not sure that matters since it basically means your character isn't involved in the fight, except as a tool that might talk. It's functionally the same as just standing behind the main character and doing nothing but hand him the weapon and then talk to him.

YMMV whether that's a failure, a genre-barrier, or completely irrelevant.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Int-based divine caster. It just doesn't exist. The closest is probably a witch.

Divine casters as focussed on casting as wizards are. You can't get there, because the chassis always gives you 3/4 BAB and light armour.

Reflavor the witch. Otherwise yes.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Similarly, arcane caster with an animal companion. Doesn't happen. You can do it by multi-classing, but it's not really a good idea.

Supposedly a game-balance thing. Animal companions are "too teh powerful." But yeah, you aren't the first to lament a lack of tiger or wolf familiars, cool though they would be.

On the flip side, Charm monster continues to be available on most arcane caster lists, as well as buff spells and items for stats, abilities, and even intelligence.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Inherent shapeshifting (someone else must have mentioned that).

Druids? Kitsune.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Non-humanoid races.

I assume Goblins and Grippli still count as Humanoid? Merfolk have fish-tails. Ghoran are Plants, but they still look humanoid. Kasatha are four-armed humanoids. Centaurs...yeah, not to many races taht don't come out with arms, legs, and a head. To be fair, that describes most fantasy settings though.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Races that can just fly. Like, always, not at level ten after a feat chain.

Strix, Wyvarans, Syrinx...possibly some others but I don't know 'em off the top of my head.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Elven druid-sorceress crossover concepts. They're pretty common outside D&D-based games, but the sharp divide between divine and arcane magic within D&D space renders the concept difficult if not unplayable.

Nature-themed oracle. Reflavored Witch.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Arcane casters who use their amazing mastery of time and space to bring happy positive energy to heal people. The closest is probably a white mage arcanist, but that isn't really a spell, it's flavoured weirdly. Given that arcane casters can call negative energy from the negative energy plane, there's no metaphysical reason they shouldn't be able to do the same from the positive.

...reflavored witch?

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Anyone using a pike. Somehow a polearm more than 10' long doesn't exist, ever.

True. Though I think that's more a fundamental misunderstanding of how weapons work. Same reason shaft and shield is third-party.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Sundering weapons that make sense. Apparently a lucerne hammer is good at sundering armour. But it isn't good at sundering shields, because rigid wooden shields are harder to destroy with a blunt impact than bendable mail is?

Well, actually...

I mean, a suit of chainmail with a great gaping hole in it seems less likely to distribute the impact of a blow across a wide enough area to reduce the damage of a strike. A shield with a single hole in it is still a pretty good shield. But then you ask "why does it work on Fullplate" and I have no answer.

*checks SRD*

And from the description, it's using piercing damage (which...can be used to sunder now?) to hook and rip plates off of the armor like a claw hammer, which only makes sense if the armor HAS plates to rip off (hello again, inconvenient chainmail). It also doesn't work on a shield, which tends to be a more solid, singular construction.

A better question is how my entirely-wooden greatclub sunders an entirely-steel Earthbreaker without taking damage. None of that makes any sense.


Voadam wrote:


Warlock or Dragonfire Adept with at will blasting.

The Thundercaller Bard comes pretty darn close.


Lucy_Valentine wrote:


Similarly, arcane caster with an animal companion. Doesn't happen. You can do it by multi-classing, but it's not really a good idea.

Besides what has already been mentioned, Improved Familiar.


DrDeth wrote:
Voadam wrote:


Warlock or Dragonfire Adept with at will blasting.

The Thundercaller Bard comes pretty darn close.

Where is that from?


DrDeth wrote:
Lucy_Valentine wrote:


Similarly, arcane caster with an animal companion. Doesn't happen. You can do it by multi-classing, but it's not really a good idea.
Besides what has already been mentioned, Improved Familiar.

Probably doesn't count, to the best of my knowledge the IF list is pretty short and doesn't have a "wildcard" entry for taking Animal Companion animals (like bear or whatever).

I'm just guessing though.


Well, there's always the Sylvan Sorcerer or the Animal Ally feat.


Voadam wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Voadam wrote:


Warlock or Dragonfire Adept with at will blasting.

The Thundercaller Bard comes pretty darn close.
Where is that from?

Pathfinder Player Companion: Varisia, Birthplace of Legends.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/thundercaller


I was about to say... Did people forget the Sylvan Sorcerer exists?


DrDeth wrote:
Voadam wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Voadam wrote:


Warlock or Dragonfire Adept with at will blasting.

The Thundercaller Bard comes pretty darn close.
Where is that from?

Pathfinder Player Companion: Varisia, Birthplace of Legends.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/thundercaller

Thundercaller

Linkified it for you =D


K177Y C47 wrote:

I was about to say... Did people forget the Sylvan Sorcerer exists?

Yes.

*looks at archetype*
Cool.


Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Non-humanoid races.

Races that can just fly. Like, always, not at level ten after a feat chain.

Just picking up the ARG you have outsider, dragon, construct, monstrous humanoid, fey and aberration PC's. Add the Inner Sea Bestiary for plants. Seems pretty well covered.

Flying, Strix, Wyvarans, Syrinx, Gathlain.

Most of the others are doable or a matter of taste.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Quote:
Gandalf solo'd a BALROG. Balrogs are Balors. Balors are CR20.

Alternate interpretation:

A balrog got solo'd by GANDALF. Gandalf clearly has no high-level spells, so balrogs must be about mid-level. Balors are CR20. Balrogs might be the inspiration for balors, but must not be the same thing.

I have literally no opinion on Gandalf's Power Levels, I'm just pointing that out. :P

Again, HAD and USED are two different things.

Gandalf was literally FORBIDDEN to do "too much" by Illuvatar. Even though he had magical power to rival Sauron (though not Morgoth), he wasn't allowed to use it or else go against God's will.

During the First Age when Dragons and Balrogs were running amok alongside Morgoth's other forces, he was allowed to dole out righteous fury via magic a lot more, but once the First Men were born, all five of the Wizards had to tone down their magic and were only allowed to Guide, never to Lead.

Three of them, Saruman and the Blue Wizards broke that edict completely, Sauruman, in an effort to become the Big Bad himself, and the Blues presumably to settle down as petty rulers. And Brown essentially went bird obsessive turning himself into another Tom Bombadil. Gandalf was the only one of the Five to stay true to his mission.

Also remember that while Gandalf may have "soloed" the Balrog, it was still at the cost of his life, making the fight effectively a draw.

Trivia fact: In the Hobbit movies, The Brown Wizard was played by Sylvester McCoy, a.k.a. The Seventh Doctor.


LazarX wrote:


Three of them, Saruman and the Blue Wizards broke that edict completely, Sauruman, in an effort to become the Big Bad himself, and the Blues presumably to settle down as petty rulers.

Not sure about the Blue wizards:

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Wizards
"Their mission though is still to the east, to weaken the forces of Sauron . And it is here said that the Wizards far from failed; rather, they had a pivotal role in the victories of the West at the end of both the Second and the Third Ages."


Since lord of the rings always seems to be brought up, I remember in another thread where someone was saying shelob was an epic level encounter and a cave troll was a CR 17 encounter. I was pretty curious as to how someone finds these creatures that high of a CR, but that thread was pretty dead when I discovered those posts.


Sauce987654321 wrote:
Since lord of the rings always seems to be brought up, I remember in another thread where someone was saying shelob was an epic level encounter and a cave troll was a CR 17 encounter. I was pretty curious as to how someone finds these creatures that high of a CR, but that thread was pretty dead when I discovered those posts.

I think that was quickly debunked seeing as The Leng Spider is not even an Epic creature and that thing can teleport all over the place... and Last i checked Shelob has no real supernatural powers....


Some concepts from 4e I'd like to see how to emulate in PF mechanically:

Warlord, guy in armor with a melee weapon near the front line who (mechanically) yells at his allies to attack again (and they do) and when they are hurt he shouts at them to walk it off and get back in the fight (and they do). Can emulate the flavor through roleplay on a fighter but the mechanics to back up the effects are desired.

Defender role classes. A tough hombre who punishes bad guys with attacks or zaps if the bad guys do not focus on them.
PF Paladins are sort of the antidefenders with their smite giving bad guys serious incentives to avoid engaging them. Antagonize feat can give a persistent -2 on attacks against others, but no damaging threat.


Warlord: Cavalier does morale bonuses, mix in a little bard, maybe songhealer. Takes a while to get your armor up with those cast in armor feats, but it's doable.

Or just be an Oracle, they get 3/4 BAB and cast in armor. Reflavor the verbal components and use Reach Spell a lot.

Defender: The Stalwart Defender, a couple of feats like Dragon Defender. Use a reach weapon.

And the Marshall (Mythic path) has abilities that do both of those things. But that's mythic.


boring7 wrote:

Well, actually...

(stuff)
A better question is how my entirely-wooden greatclub sunders an entirely-steel Earthbreaker without taking damage. None of that makes any sense.

Yep. It's hilariously nonsensical. :-) One set of concepts pathfinder really really can't do is "things that work they way they do in real life".

This is of course not so much a bug as a feature. I mean, we play games like this to get away from real life.


K177Y C47 wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Since lord of the rings always seems to be brought up, I remember in another thread where someone was saying shelob was an epic level encounter and a cave troll was a CR 17 encounter. I was pretty curious as to how someone finds these creatures that high of a CR, but that thread was pretty dead when I discovered those posts.
I think that was quickly debunked seeing as The Leng Spider is not even an Epic creature and that thing can teleport all over the place... and Last i checked Shelob has no real supernatural powers....

It wasn't debunked at all. Shelob is a Mythic creature, almost a demi-diety. She is intelligent, and has Epic DR.

From LotR wiki:Ungoliant (Sindarin IPA: [uŋˈɡoljant]) was a primordial being in the shape of a gigantic spider. ...There, in a ravine south of the mountain Hyamentir, she established her dark abode and took the form of a monstrous spider, and here sucked up all the light she could find."

It took Morgoth (Sauron's boss and a ARMY of Balrogs to defeat her).


DrDeth wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Since lord of the rings always seems to be brought up, I remember in another thread where someone was saying shelob was an epic level encounter and a cave troll was a CR 17 encounter. I was pretty curious as to how someone finds these creatures that high of a CR, but that thread was pretty dead when I discovered those posts.
I think that was quickly debunked seeing as The Leng Spider is not even an Epic creature and that thing can teleport all over the place... and Last i checked Shelob has no real supernatural powers....

It wasn't debunked at all. Shelob is a Mythic creature, almost a demi-diety. She is intelligent, and has Epic DR.

From LotR wiki:Ungoliant (Sindarin IPA: [uŋˈɡoljant]) was a primordial being in the shape of a gigantic spider. ...There, in a ravine south of the mountain Hyamentir, she established her dark abode and took the form of a monstrous spider, and here sucked up all the light she could find."

It took Morgoth (Sauron's boss and a ARMY of Balrogs to defeat her).

Sure, but that's Ungoliant. Her children, like Shelob, are FAR weaker than she is.


DrDeth wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Since lord of the rings always seems to be brought up, I remember in another thread where someone was saying shelob was an epic level encounter and a cave troll was a CR 17 encounter. I was pretty curious as to how someone finds these creatures that high of a CR, but that thread was pretty dead when I discovered those posts.
I think that was quickly debunked seeing as The Leng Spider is not even an Epic creature and that thing can teleport all over the place... and Last i checked Shelob has no real supernatural powers....

It wasn't debunked at all. Shelob is a Mythic creature, almost a demi-diety. She is intelligent, and has Epic DR.

From LotR wiki:Ungoliant (Sindarin IPA: [uŋˈɡoljant]) was a primordial being in the shape of a gigantic spider. ...There, in a ravine south of the mountain Hyamentir, she established her dark abode and took the form of a monstrous spider, and here sucked up all the light she could find."

It took Morgoth (Sauron's boss and a ARMY of Balrogs to defeat her).

Hm, last I checked, Shelob is nothing more than an intelligent spider that was really big. Nothing more. Maybe some basic DR x/magic (remember, Middle Earth is a low magic setting, so magic weapons are rare). And I STILL am not seeing Shelob:

Casting Insanity, Invisibility, Air Walk, or Major Image...

Shelob is no epic encounter... if she was an epic encounter then the hobbits would be flat out dead. No questions asked...

Do you REALIZE what an Epic encounter is? One Balor could wipe out most of middle earth... a single Storm Giant would be damn near unstoppable. Let alone something like Cthulhu, the elohim, the Jabbarwok, the titans, or the Tarrasque.

Middle Earth is THE EPITOME of E6...


DrDeth wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Since lord of the rings always seems to be brought up, I remember in another thread where someone was saying shelob was an epic level encounter and a cave troll was a CR 17 encounter. I was pretty curious as to how someone finds these creatures that high of a CR, but that thread was pretty dead when I discovered those posts.
I think that was quickly debunked seeing as The Leng Spider is not even an Epic creature and that thing can teleport all over the place... and Last i checked Shelob has no real supernatural powers....

It wasn't debunked at all. Shelob is a Mythic creature, almost a demi-diety. She is intelligent, and has Epic DR.

From LotR wiki:Ungoliant (Sindarin IPA: [uŋˈɡoljant]) was a primordial being in the shape of a gigantic spider. ...There, in a ravine south of the mountain Hyamentir, she established her dark abode and took the form of a monstrous spider, and here sucked up all the light she could find."

It took Morgoth (Sauron's boss and a ARMY of Balrogs to defeat her).

Even if shelob is a mythic creature (which wouldn't make sense as an ogre spider does the exact same thing as shelob) it would only grant her DR5/epic and her CR would still be around the same as an ogre spider (except with other abilities gained from mythic ranks which shelob doesn't have).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

With the ACG finally released everybody can play Gandalf like he was meant to be played...Bloodrager. Sunder rocks, cut people with your sword and occasionally cast a spell so people think you are a wizard.


I don't know how anyone can see shelob as an epic encounter when compared to most monsters in any of the bestiaries. Some monsters are large enough to swallow a fully grown whale whole, yet Shelob can somehow still take on a horde of them by itself.


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This thread became that thread.

Interesting.

Well, I'm in the "LotR is an Epic 6 campaign" camp myself.

Just look at the tone of the books. It never even approaches the superheroic fantasy we see in the average Pathfinder game. That's enough for me to call the whole thing lower-level.

And the best way to replicate a world like that is to strip out character advancement after a certain critical point.


Conversely, there are also concepts that Pathfinder theoretically can do, but players generally won't do:

Uneven teams/parties -- Particularly stuff like the Avengers or Justice League. Thor is pretty much an Emperyal Lord, compared to Hawkeye and Natasha who might have a Mythic Rank or two at best.

Mid- to High-level starts -- This sometimes does happen, but traditionally we tend to start our characters off at level 1. Thing is, many stories we read or watch will have their heroes already into their careers (take any Police show, for example). Also, combining with the above, parties of mixed level, you will rarely see parties where one character is a Level 1 rookie, while another is a veteran level 3-5. On the other hand, look at Star Wars. Luke might have been first level, but Han Solo had quite a few years as a smuggler, and both Chewbacca and Obi-Wan had been through the Clone Wars.

The Gundam Effect -- Mostly because it entails blatant disregard for WBL. For you non-anime fans, Mobile Suit Gundam put it's rookie protagonist inside basically a high-level piece of equipment and threw him into fights where he survived or prevailed because of his mech's power.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
SAMAS wrote:

Conversely, there are also concepts that Pathfinder theoretically can do, but players generally won't do:

Uneven teams/parties -- Particularly stuff like the Avengers or Justice League. Thor is pretty much an Emperyal Lord, compared to Hawkeye and Natasha who might have a Mythic Rank or two at best.

Mid- to High-level starts -- This sometimes does happen, but traditionally we tend to start our characters off at level 1. Thing is, many stories we read or watch will have their heroes already into their careers (take any Police show, for example). Also, combining with the above, parties of mixed level, you will rarely see parties where one character is a Level 1 rookie, while another is a veteran level 3-5. On the other hand, look at Star Wars. Luke might have been first level, but Han Solo had quite a few years as a smuggler, and both Chewbacca and Obi-Wan had been through the Clone Wars.

Really, no RPG (or cooperative game in general) handles massive power disparities between characters very well, because that's the nature of cooperative gaming. In a cooperative game, everyone wants to feel like they're making a roughly equal and valuable contribution. The balance sheet doesn't have to turn out completely perfect, but it should be at a place where everyone's important and useful.

In fiction, it's okay to have a character be the useless damsel in distress who must constantly be rescued by others, or the idiot who always makes the wrong decision that screws over the group. In a cooperative game, nobody wants to play that character.

Granted, the power disparity issue is magnified in Pathfinder/D&D because of how extreme the power curve is as characters level up, compared to a lot of other RPGs.


Eh, most Gundam shows I remember (and admittedly, I don't even know which one was "the original" because there were a lot of gundam serieses out theres) had the kid having "hidden power" and "incredible natural potential" that had him kicking ass from the get-go in ways mere mortals couldn't.

Also, I've played a few high-level one-shots. They were a lot of fun.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Since lord of the rings always seems to be brought up, I remember in another thread where someone was saying shelob was an epic level encounter and a cave troll was a CR 17 encounter. I was pretty curious as to how someone finds these creatures that high of a CR, but that thread was pretty dead when I discovered those posts.
I think that was quickly debunked seeing as The Leng Spider is not even an Epic creature and that thing can teleport all over the place... and Last i checked Shelob has no real supernatural powers....

It wasn't debunked at all. Shelob is a Mythic creature, almost a demi-diety. She is intelligent, and has Epic DR.

From LotR wiki:Ungoliant (Sindarin IPA: [uŋˈɡoljant]) was a primordial being in the shape of a gigantic spider. ...There, in a ravine south of the mountain Hyamentir, she established her dark abode and took the form of a monstrous spider, and here sucked up all the light she could find."

It took Morgoth (Sauron's boss and a ARMY of Balrogs to defeat her).

Sure, but that's Ungoliant. Her children, like Shelob, are FAR weaker than she is.

It helps if you think of Ungoliant as Cthulhu with extra legs and no tentacles.


Chengar Qordath wrote:

Really, no RPG (or cooperative game in general) handles massive power disparities between characters very well, because that's the nature of cooperative gaming. In a cooperative game, everyone wants to feel like they're making a roughly equal and valuable contribution. The balance sheet doesn't have to turn out completely perfect, but it should be at a place where everyone's important and useful.

In fiction, it's okay to have a character be the useless damsel in distress who must constantly be rescued by others, or the idiot who always makes the wrong decision that screws over the group. In a cooperative game, nobody wants to play that character.

Granted, the power disparity issue is magnified in Pathfinder/D&D because of how extreme the power curve is as characters level up, compared to a lot of other RPGs.

Arguably, Natasha is just as powerful, but specialized in charisma and infiltration skills. Spymaster rogue vs. amped-up paladin.

Dark Archive

Hmm. Concepts that don't work in Pathfinder.

A Martial Character (Magus would be the closest fit pre-transformation) who can transform into a variety of large dragons (Breath of Fire Style). I would argue that it currently just *Can't be Done*.

I can make a Synthesist Summoner, but then I'm a caster, not a Martial; and of course, It counts count as an outsider, not a Dragon. It will also (in practice) result in a character who is a dragon 90% of the time, because synthesizing in combat is really not very doable. Not to mention, having multiple forms I can take on is not actually doable unless I have managed to get blood magic on my spell list (otherwise I will end up consuming all of my WBL very quickly casting spells to change up my evolutions).

As for concepts I've often wanted to play that don't work WELL in Pathfinder: Swashbuckler (there are a few options, including the class in ACG, but they're just not Good); and Priests. Yes; I can make a Cleric. Or I can make a Priest who does not receive divine spells from his god. There is not an option for Domain Priest. Why does my Priest of the God of Thieves have Medium BAB and Armor, No real Stealth or Sneak-Attack Qualities, and very few spells related to his god's portfolios? The class to cover a wide variety of gods in a way that makes a great deal of sense just doesn't exist. It would be one primarily focused on Domain Spells, and would need Domain Lists with more than just 1 spell per level, somewhat like 2e Spheres - and you would Ideally have the ability to pick up skills and class features from other classes, possibly including better or worse BAB.

And - to beat a dead horse; a nonmagical Conan type who doesn't make use of magic but still manages to do well against his foes - I would of course, argue that the reason that this one doesn't work is that Pathfinder is a game soaked in abundant magical abilities and items, and that it is a terrible system to run if you want a Sword & Sorcery hero that can actually keep up - For that I would point you at other games that handle low magic better - 5e, 2e Conan, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea, or Riddle of Steel, or Barbarians of Lemuria, or Fate(Accelerated, maybe); to name a few. I've heard people insist that Pathfinder can do well with low-magic. I disagree. It's a high magic game. I wouldn't use Pathfinder to run Sword and Sorcery (Games or characters) any more than I would use it to run a 1920s nonmagical noir/pulp game centered on the prohibition, rum-running, and mobsters set in boston.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:
LazarX wrote:


Three of them, Saruman and the Blue Wizards broke that edict completely, Sauruman, in an effort to become the Big Bad himself, and the Blues presumably to settle down as petty rulers.

Not sure about the Blue wizards:

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Wizards
"Their mission though is still to the east, to weaken the forces of Sauron . And it is here said that the Wizards far from failed; rather, they had a pivotal role in the victories of the West at the end of both the Second and the Third Ages."

Middle Earth Role Playing set them both up as Fourth Age villain bosses. And considering how hard they held to the material, I consider it both a valid interpretation. There was good reasons as to why most of the high ones avoided Arda and that Oloroin (Gandalf) in particular was reluctant to go. They knew that 1, their presence could corrupt the work of Eru and 2, how seductive the use of their powers there could be. The fall of the other Four Istari exemplify exactly how stoic and upright the lone Wizard who held faith was.


Darkholme wrote:
A Martial Character (Magus would be the closest fit pre-transformation) who can transform into a variety of large dragons (Breath of Fire Style). I would argue that it currently just *Can't be Done*.

Only played 3 and 4, but 3 was the best (only?) support caster (every walkthrough I ever read claimed you should never bother with draconic transformations, just sit and heal) in the group and transformed into dragon forms if it chose. Synthesist Summoner pretty well captured that. 4 was basically a mutagen warrior (or whatever it was called), who turned into (what looked like) a half-dragon at key moments.

ALSO, it's cross-genre, since BoF was/is a game with animu levels of power creep (which is fun, but a different genre). But that's kind of the point of most of your comments, you want "playing a different-genre character" and "I's da biggest an' da strongest even wif one hand tied behind me back!"

Even Conan used magic crap all the time.


Darkholme wrote:

Hmm. Concepts that don't work in Pathfinder.

A Martial Character (Magus would be the closest fit pre-transformation) who can transform into a variety of large dragons (Breath of Fire Style). I would argue that it currently just *Can't be Done*.

I can make a Synthesist Summoner, but then I'm a caster, not a Martial; and of course, It counts count as an outsider, not a Dragon. It will also (in practice) result in a character who is a dragon 90% of the time, because synthesizing in combat is really not very doable. Not to mention, having multiple forms I can take on is not actually doable unless I have managed to get blood magic on my spell list (otherwise I will end up consuming all of my WBL very quickly casting spells to change up my evolutions).

As for concepts I've often wanted to play that don't work WELL in Pathfinder: Swashbuckler (there are a few options, including the class in ACG, but they're just not Good); and Priests. Yes; I can make a Cleric. Or I can make a Priest who does not receive divine spells from his god. There is not an option for Domain Priest. Why does my Priest of the God of Thieves have Medium BAB and Armor, No real Stealth or Sneak-Attack Qualities, and very few spells related to his god's portfolios? The class to cover a wide variety of gods in a way that makes a great deal of sense just doesn't exist. It would be one primarily focused on Domain Spells, and would need Domain Lists with more than just 1 spell per level, somewhat like 2e Spheres - and you would Ideally have the ability to pick up skills and class features from other classes, possibly including better or worse BAB.

And - to beat a dead horse; a nonmagical Conan type who doesn't make use of magic but still manages to do well against his foes - I would of course, argue that the reason that this one doesn't work is that Pathfinder is a game soaked in abundant magical abilities and items, and that it is a terrible system to run if you want a Sword & Sorcery hero that can actually keep up - For that I...

Bloodragers.... with the arcane bloodline....

Or a sufficently high level Oracle with the Dark Tapestry bloodline (or you can cheat and put your FC bonus into the Many Forms ability)

Dark Archive

Hmm.

Breath of Fire:
@Boring7: I would consider most of the Fantasy JRPG Videogames to be very close in genre to D&D/Pathfinder; the main difference being that Pathfinder goes to an even Higher Power Level. I was thinking more BoF 4 than 3; Because as you mention, 3 works okay with Synthesist Summoner (other than how difficult it is to change in combat, and the requirement of blood magic to make regularly changing forms be a viable option; and the inability to choose the form you want to take mid-combat and then take that form.

@Pixie Dust: The bloodrager doesn't really cover it. Rather than make an extra big transforming bruiser, the goal is to make a melee type who transforms and gains magical dragon-like capabilities (breath weapons, or some blasting/elemental abilities, or whatever).

Dark Tapestry Oracle is probably the closest - though it's a full caster, not a martial, but you don't get the ability to do dragon shapes until you hit 15; which means that it doesn't cover the concept at all until your many Forms is at 15 (which, as you pointed out, you can do at level 10).

But yeah; none of those options really fit the "Martial who turns into a variety of kinds of dragons" schtick. Some of them cover martials turning into big brutes without dragon-like abilities of any kind (but not multiple kinds) and some of them cover other parts of the concept but are casters instead of martials.

Conan:
Conan is in a lower powered genre - he is badass within that genre, but he can't compete with D&D characters. That was my point there. People keep asking to be able to do Conan "A Fighter who can keep up without regular use of magic" with Pathfinder, but it just doesn't do low-magic fantasy (Sword and Sorcery, Dark Fantasy, Pulp Fantasy, etc). If that is the genre you want to play, you're in the wrong game, and should be looking at something designed to do that instead - Pathfinder is designed around abundant and high powered magic, gear-focused adventure fantasy - it's a good fit for itself/D&D3/4 settings, as well as Warcraft, High Magic Fantasy JRPGs, Forgotten Realms, and the like. 4e is equally high magic, but also miniatues gaming focused.


Hm, I feel like the Taskshaper would probably be what would work best with you... it is a 3PP class from Rite Publishing that lacks spell casting but excels at mimicking others and gains the ability to shape change.

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