So, I'm running a dungeon adventure I picked up. The dungeon is for 1st level characters and builds them up through a higher level.
My players didn't feel like starting at level 1, so I made a deal with them. They could start at 3 and I would only advance them every couple of dungeon levels so that after the 3rd or 4th, they would be on track with the adventure. The first level of the dungeon, I would modify by raising the CRs by 2 of each encounter, and the second / third level I would only raise by 1.
It is a lot of book keeping, but it is manageable at this level.
So the first level, without getting into specifics or easy to identify spoilers, there is an encounter that is a little worse than a CR 3, but not quite a 4, that I boosted to a little worse than a CR 5. The first level creature gained two class levels and another creature gained the advanced monster template and became large.
While I expect the party to demolish the encounter, they are going to burn spells and use healing. There is just no way around it. The encounter had synergy already and now it is off the hook. The two NPCs really build off one another and can do some damage.
Despite the creatures in this dungeon being dumb as a box of rocks, their leader is very smart. Not only is he smart, but he is sneaking, ruthless and capable of dealing a lot of damage from a good distance away. If you play the module straight through, you are suppose to catch him alone in his room. While he can defend himself, you are starting the fight. That beats the hell out of arrows during the surprise round and the round after both going unanswered, which is the other way this can play out.
This is what I think is going to happen:
The party is going to throw down with the BBEG's chief minions and kill them. They are going to be hurt so grievously, they are going to try to escape the area, camp, heal up and come back later.
If they try that, there is just no credible reason for the BBEG to ignore the party. Watching them limp off from his lofty perch is just going to incite him further.
I can't, in good conscience, let the party ransack this place, make this dangerous enemy, and walk away like bosses.
Either they come hard and go all the way, or they die full of arrows in their sleep.
I'm not really asking for advice. I'm just putting this out there for general discussion.
You're a terrible person unless you hint at some point that there is a genius supersoldier leader who can see them without them seeing him.
In cases like you've described there's no reason to not outright tell them to f$#@ing clear it the first time. You're going to waste their time, kill them, and then have to redo all the character creation.
DominusMegadeus wrote: You're a terrible person unless you hint at some point that there is a genius supersoldier leader who can see them without them seeing him.
In cases like you've described there's no reason to not outright tell them to f$#@ing clear it the first time. You're going to waste their time, kill them, and then have to redo all the character creation.
That's just like, your opinion man. I absolutely hate it when GMs play my turn for me. Deciding to retreat or push is a calculated decision and a good chunk of the thinking and fun.
I'm not hinting at anything, beyond the fact that someone organized the dungeon. If they fail to ask any of the creatures or case the place before the end and investigate beyond just kicking down doors and killing everything, then they must not be curious what lurks at the end.
Besides that, I think it is funny.
SockPuppet wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: You're a terrible person unless you hint at some point that there is a genius supersoldier leader who can see them without them seeing him.
In cases like you've described there's no reason to not outright tell them to f$#@ing clear it the first time. You're going to waste their time, kill them, and then have to redo all the character creation.
That's just like, your opinion man. I absolutely hate it when GMs play my turn for me. Deciding to retreat or push is a calculated decision and a good chunk of the thinking and fun.
I'm not hinting at anything, beyond the fact that someone organized the dungeon. If they fail to ask any of the creatures or case the place before the end and investigate beyond just kicking down doors and killing everything, then they must not be curious what lurks at the end.
Besides that, I think it is funny. So they're gonna design 3rd level characters, backstory, class, race, everything, clear maybe one floor of one dungeon, maybe, and if they decide to back out the whole thing ends, they all die without any chance of victory?
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Seriously? "Okay guys, you made it out of the dungeon. You're resting? Cool. Who's standing watch? Okay, roll Perception. You failed? Aww, too bad. You're all dead. Scrap those characters, and start over again."
"Hey guys, where you going? Whaddya mean 'Screw you?' I thought it would be GREAT!"
It sounds worse than that DominusMegadeus. It sounds like he's buffed up the chief minions enough that they wouldn't be able to clear it the first time ("They are going to be hurt so grievously") and if the try to back off, they get ganked. It's a lose/lose situation. He might as well kill them off and they can start with a winnable adventure.
Nocte ex Mortis wrote: Seriously? "Okay guys, you made it out of the dungeon. You're resting? Cool. Who's standing watch? Okay, roll Perception. You failed? Aww, too bad. You're all dead. Scrap those characters, and start over again."
"Hey guys, where you going? Whaddya mean 'Screw you?' I thought it would be GREAT!"
Haha, it would be better if it were like that. Maybe they will camp at the bottom or a landslide and make it quick.
Roll perception. What was that, a 19? Not quite. Two arrows whistle past into the wizard's bunk. Take 28 damage. Everyone roll initiative.
Bad guys go on 17. You charge him? You channel? Ok. Take another 12 damage from arrows priest. Sorry you were still hurt. Weren't you out of channel already?
It would be a blood bath.
SockPuppet wrote: DominusMegadeus wrote: You're a terrible person unless you hint at some point that there is a genius supersoldier leader who can see them without them seeing him.
In cases like you've described there's no reason to not outright tell them to f$#@ing clear it the first time. You're going to waste their time, kill them, and then have to redo all the character creation.
That's just like, your opinion man. I absolutely hate it when GMs play my turn for me. Deciding to retreat or push is a calculated decision and a good chunk of the thinking and fun.
I'm not hinting at anything, beyond the fact that someone organized the dungeon. If they fail to ask any of the creatures or case the place before the end and investigate beyond just kicking down doors and killing everything, then they must not be curious what lurks at the end.
Besides that, I think it is funny. Ahh there we go that explains it all now.
Have you read the game masters guide? A game master is a host and story teller. You are not the enemy of the players. YOU ARE NOT THE ENEMY OF THE PLAYERS. You win when your players are enjoying them self, not when your plot devices, pawns and dice rolling defeats them.
graystone wrote: It sounds worse than that DominusMegadeus. It sounds like he's buffed up the chief minions enough that they wouldn't be able to clear it the first time ("They are going to be hurt so grievously") and if the try to back off, they get ganked. It's a lose/lose situation. He might as well kill them off and they can start with a winnable adventure. It is winnable, but the wizard has blown through 2 spells before the fight on minions the DPS characters didn't need help with. He's going to have to cast some more during this fight. Worse, the priest has already hit the channel twice. The NPC cleric is going to start dropping that negative channel and healing the evil thing. Immediately though, he's going to turn invisible and continue to buff it.
The party made so much commotion in the next room that the enemy priest has already cast two buff spells and taken cover. First thing on his turn, he is turning invisible.
James Gibbons wrote: Have you read the game masters guide? A game master is a host and story teller. You are not the enemy of the players. YOU ARE NOT THE ENEMY OF THE PLAYERS. You win when your players are enjoying them self, not when your plot devices, pawns and dice rolling defeats them. The host provides a challenge. A challenge includes the possibility of defeat. Is it my fault that they kicked in the doors and warned the enemy priest they were coming? No. Is it my fault that the wizard is blasting off spells when the DPS characters could handle the mooks? No.
If you can't lose, there is no point in thinking, and by extension, no game. These aren't 8 year olds. They are grown men. I'm sure they can take it on the cheek and roll with it.
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SockPuppet wrote: graystone wrote: It sounds worse than that DominusMegadeus. It sounds like he's buffed up the chief minions enough that they wouldn't be able to clear it the first time ("They are going to be hurt so grievously") and if the try to back off, they get ganked. It's a lose/lose situation. He might as well kill them off and they can start with a winnable adventure. It is winnable, but the wizard has blown through 2 spells before the fight on minions the DPS characters didn't need help with. He's going to have to cast some more during this fight. Worse, the priest has already hit the channel twice. The NPC cleric is going to start dropping that negative channel and healing the evil thing. Immediately though, he's going to turn invisible and continue to buff it.
The party made so much commotion in the next room that the enemy priest has already cast two buff spells and taken cover. First thing on his turn, he is turning invisible.
I've noticed after reading through your older posts that, if you're being completely serious, you like running things with no concern for fairness to the players. You do not make them special or make reality cater to giving them a decent chance of success, or any chance of success at all. Namely, ignoring the CR system entirely. If you have a group of players who is fine with that, and have stuck with you knowing that, then all you have to realize is that it's a very uncommon play-style among the forum goers, or at least the vocal ones.
Your hilarious story about how your party is a coin flip away from dying horribly with no recourse (and apparently they've already lost because the wizard cast a spell.) is not going to be funny to anyone else except in an 'it makes no sense' kind of way.
If you really want them to die, perhaps you could put some contingencies in place for them so that they would be instantly teleported somewhere else if they die because the almight priest of (insert prevailing god against tyranny here) has deemed it so, and let them try again with the enemy thinking them dead.
Or, you could instead have the supergenius overlord BBEG simply fall to pride, thinking that this misfit band of haphazardly joined 2nd rate adventurers who couldn't even clear level 3 isn't worthy of his chief minions, and instead turn the incredibly weak CR5.5 D-team on them instead, and not kill them.
Either way, I don't think that its a good idea for you to simply kill off the newly-minted 3rd level characters your players and friends have put time and effort into, and may already have planned out several levels in advance.
SockPuppet wrote: graystone wrote: It sounds worse than that DominusMegadeus. It sounds like he's buffed up the chief minions enough that they wouldn't be able to clear it the first time ("They are going to be hurt so grievously") and if the try to back off, they get ganked. It's a lose/lose situation. He might as well kill them off and they can start with a winnable adventure. It is winnable, but the wizard has blown through 2 spells before the fight on minions the DPS characters didn't need help with. He's going to have to cast some more during this fight. Worse, the priest has already hit the channel twice. The NPC cleric is going to start dropping that negative channel and healing the evil thing. Immediately though, he's going to turn invisible and continue to buff it.
The party made so much commotion in the next room that the enemy priest has already cast two buff spells and taken cover. First thing on his turn, he is turning invisible.
So what you mean it that it was possible, but they didn't do everything that a person that's read the module would have done. Now that they've "screwed up" the next room's gone from hard to super hard and it's not even the boss fight.
Really this sounds like it started circling the bowl as soon as the players used more resource than you thought they should have.
DominusMegadeus wrote: SockPuppet wrote: graystone wrote: It sounds worse than that DominusMegadeus. It sounds like he's buffed up the chief minions enough that they wouldn't be able to clear it the first time ("They are going to be hurt so grievously") and if the try to back off, they get ganked. It's a lose/lose situation. He might as well kill them off and they can start with a winnable adventure. It is winnable, but the wizard has blown through 2 spells before the fight on minions the DPS characters didn't need help with. He's going to have to cast some more during this fight. Worse, the priest has already hit the channel twice. The NPC cleric is going to start dropping that negative channel and healing the evil thing. Immediately though, he's going to turn invisible and continue to buff it.
The party made so much commotion in the next room that the enemy priest has already cast two buff spells and taken cover. First thing on his turn, he is turning invisible.
I've noticed after reading through your older posts that, if you're being completely serious, you like running things with no concern for fairness to the players. You do not make them special or make reality cater to giving them a decent chance of success, or any chance of success at all. Namely, ignoring the CR system entirely. If you have a group of players who is fine with that, and have stuck with you knowing that, then all you have to realize is that it's a very uncommon play-style among the forum goers, or at least the vocal ones.
Your hilarious story about how your party is a coin flip away from dying horribly with no recourse (and apparently they've already lost because the wizard cast a spell.) is not going to be funny to anyone else except in an 'it makes no sense' kind of way. What doesn't make sense? The lady and the lions is real life, real talk yo.
Let the dice fall how they may.
graystone wrote: SockPuppet wrote: graystone wrote: It sounds worse than that DominusMegadeus. It sounds like he's buffed up the chief minions enough that they wouldn't be able to clear it the first time ("They are going to be hurt so grievously") and if the try to back off, they get ganked. It's a lose/lose situation. He might as well kill them off and they can start with a winnable adventure. It is winnable, but the wizard has blown through 2 spells before the fight on minions the DPS characters didn't need help with. He's going to have to cast some more during this fight. Worse, the priest has already hit the channel twice. The NPC cleric is going to start dropping that negative channel and healing the evil thing. Immediately though, he's going to turn invisible and continue to buff it.
The party made so much commotion in the next room that the enemy priest has already cast two buff spells and taken cover. First thing on his turn, he is turning invisible.
So what you mean it that it was possible, but they didn't do everything that a person that's read the module would have done. Now that they've "screwed up" the next room's gone from hard to super hard and it's not even the boss fight.
Really this sounds like it started circling the bowl as soon as the players used more resource than you thought they should have. For one, I didn't write the module. For two, I did almost the totality of the CR boosting by adding more of the weakest creature and PC class levels to other, isolated NPCs which is wildly considered the most underpowered way of writing an adventure.
People kick in doors because they like kicking in doors sometimes. That doesn't make it the right decision every time. Sometimes it is the right decision. Sometimes you get a wizard, sleeping in his bed. Sometimes though, you get a priest that was ready for you and was buffing a heavy hitter.
I think losing is fun. I lose characters all the time when I play.
I lost a character in a fist fight with gunmen.
I lost a character trying to tame a nightmare.
I lost a character taking point on 15 occasions and doubling up on natural 1s.
I lose a lot of characters cause I play to the hilt. That's how I roll.
As a GM, I don't play other players turns. That's just rude, and I don't dumb the game down enough so that they can win when they make a wrong choice and roll badly.
Is this a group that has clearly stated they love hard-mode challenges?
SockPuppet wrote: graystone wrote: SockPuppet wrote: graystone wrote: It sounds worse than that DominusMegadeus. It sounds like he's buffed up the chief minions enough that they wouldn't be able to clear it the first time ("They are going to be hurt so grievously") and if the try to back off, they get ganked. It's a lose/lose situation. He might as well kill them off and they can start with a winnable adventure. It is winnable, but the wizard has blown through 2 spells before the fight on minions the DPS characters didn't need help with. He's going to have to cast some more during this fight. Worse, the priest has already hit the channel twice. The NPC cleric is going to start dropping that negative channel and healing the evil thing. Immediately though, he's going to turn invisible and continue to buff it.
The party made so much commotion in the next room that the enemy priest has already cast two buff spells and taken cover. First thing on his turn, he is turning invisible.
So what you mean it that it was possible, but they didn't do everything that a person that's read the module would have done. Now that they've "screwed up" the next room's gone from hard to super hard and it's not even the boss fight.
Really this sounds like it started circling the bowl as soon as the players used more resource than you thought they should have. For one, I didn't write the module. For two, I did almost the totality of the CR boosting by adding more of the weakest creature and PC class levels to other, isolated NPCs which is wildly considered the most underpowered way of writing an adventure.
People kick in doors because they like kicking in doors sometimes. That doesn't make it the right decision every time. Sometimes it is the right decision. Sometimes you get a wizard, sleeping in his bed. Sometimes though, you get a priest that was ready for you and was buffing a heavy hitter.
I think losing is fun. I lose characters all the time when I play.
I lost a character in a fist fight... But they're not rolling badly. They're going up against someone who can wipe the party without much effort, from what you've said. You are the one who put this guy in this place with these stats. You as the DM can change it, and you chose not to.
Most groups, from my experience, generally expect that if the DM gives them any kind of plot hook, it is something they have at least half a chance of doing successfully. This is what I meant in my other post about your play-style. Other people on the forum do not play without any adjustment to circumstance because things like this happen and everyone dies day 1 and the characters were wasted.
If you just allow them to use the characters again in the same scenario but play smarter this time... why did you let them die in the first place?
If you're going to force them to reroll characters after 1 day... why did you even bother letting them play those characters?
DominusMegadeus wrote: Most groups, from my experience, generally expect that if the DM gives them any kind of plot hook, it is something they have at least half a chance of doing successfully. I think they could win the module. All they have to do is nut-up and finish the level without resting. The decision to rest or not is theirs. I PREDICT that they are going to rest, because players like to hit the BBEG with full spells. That is a mistake here.
A dragon is a dragon. Fighting a dragon in a narrow cave is a lot different than fighting a flying dragon, spitting fire while you hang on a cliff. You don't kick in the dragon's door, then go back outside. That would be suicidal.
This is the same thing. The party doesn't know what's at the end of the dungeon because they haven't scouted and haven't asked - they haven't taken any prisoners.
A good adventure is survivable because you either prepare a good escape or you come at it the right way. Doing neither is relying on luck. Sometimes that's fun. I like going to Vegas.
If they rush this guy in his room, they can beat him. If they wait for him to come looking for them, it is going to be a whole different story.
Avatar-1 wrote: Is this a group that has clearly stated they love hard-mode challenges? Yeah, I told them I'm running the module as written, besides what adjustments I need to raise the level of the first few sections. I told them that I am going to play the enemies intelligently, and that I'm rolling all my dice in the open. In return, they wrote some of the most power gaming, min/maxed pieces of crap I've ever seen and I let one of them put 100% of his starting wealth into his magic items so that he could get that next level cheese.
I think he's playing perfectly, and if these guys don't expect there to be a big bad in a dungeon that takes you from level 1 to 4,well... Besides, there should always be one room in a dungeon that you can barricade to get some rest, or at least heal and prepare for another push.
Of course that's not always described well, my group got a description of one room, it sounded like there were two doors, there were two and a secret exit that we watched someone run into, but the description was messed up enough we thought there were only the two doors.
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So, in case you aren't trolling (which I'm sure you are... or at least I hope you are)
The only "smart" and "tactical" way (referring to the dragon statement) to beat this is to rush headlong into a kamikaze style, all in attack. Not doing this means they are nut-less and undeserving of finishing the rest of the story and knowing what happens. It also means that playing a mage is a dumb idea because you should melee and carry potions so that you don't need rest. They should psychically know when to and when not to use spells if they are dumb enough to play spell casters. It also means that they are dumb for wasting time creating real characters and creating back stories instead of making shallow characters so that they don't care when they die pretty much instantly. Also, they are dumb for wanting to know what happens in the story instead of being mindless murderhobos.
I'm not asking a question, just making a statement from the point of someone who is not you.
There is no way for them to know how deep in the boss is.
There is no way for them to know that they should conserve their spells.
There is no way for them to know the singular "correct" method to win especially when that way flies in the face of reason(a good gm always builds several ways to win a scenario).
Thankfully they will soon know that you have no intention of having fun with them or telling a story, instead you want to have fun at their expense.
Again, this is all in case you don't know any better/ aren't trolling (which I am pretty sure you are, I just can't help pointing this out).
The Indescribable wrote: I think he's playing perfectly, and if these guys don't expect there to be a big bad in a dungeon that takes you from level 1 to 4,well... Besides, there should always be one room in a dungeon that you can barricade to get some rest, or at least heal and prepare for another push. If they barricade the kitchen, this guy will just leave town with the few minions he has left. The party won't get his treasure, but they will effectively pass the level.
He doesn't have the man-power left to siege a room, or even smoke them out.
Korthis wrote: So, in case you aren't trolling (which I'm sure you are... or at least I hope you are)
The only "smart" and "tactical" way (referring to the dragon statement) to beat this is to rush headlong into a kamikaze style, all in attack. Not doing this means they are nut-less and undeserving of finishing the rest of the story and knowing what happens. It also means that playing a mage is a dumb idea because you should melee and carry potions so that you don't need rest. They should psychically know when to and when not to use spells if they are dumb enough to play spell casters. It also means that they are dumb for wasting time creating real characters and creating back stories instead of making shallow characters so that they don't care when they die pretty much instantly. Also, they are dumb for wanting to know what happens in the story instead of being mindless murderhobos.
I'm not asking a question, just making a statement from the point of someone who is not you.
There is no way for them to know how deep in the boss is.
There is no way for them to know that they should conserve their spells.
There is no way for them to know the singular "correct" method to win especially when that way flies in the face of reason(a good gm always builds several ways to win a scenario).
Thankfully they will soon know that you have no intention of having fun with them or telling a story, instead you want to have fun at their expense.
Again, this is all in case you don't know any better/ aren't trolling (which I am pretty sure you are, I just can't help pointing this out).
Have you just never taken a prisoner for questioning in an RPG or buffed a rogue and sent him ahead to scout?
Team game bro, and you need more than butt-kicking to play. Someone's got to pass the ball and someone else has to spy out what the bad guys are doing. If you can't manage that, you aren't going to find much of a story anyway.
If that's the way you play it, fine, I don't know what the particular dungeon is, he could set it on fire, use a portable ram, I don't know, but if he leaves, that leaves it open for a wonderful return, bitter at the loss of his base, he starts to train, becoming bigger, badder, instead of some one-shot villain, he becomes the characters arch villian, at least for a few more stories.
The Indescribable wrote: If that's the way you play it, fine, I don't know what the particular dungeon is, he could set it on fire, use a portable ram, I don't know, but if he leaves, that leaves it open for a wonderful return, bitter at the loss of his base, he starts to train, becoming bigger, badder, instead of some one-shot villain, he becomes the characters arch villian, at least for a few more stories. Well, the structure is specifically not burnable as a part of the story, and while he could do the annoying thing of just trying to keep the party up, he would be kept up himself. The party has wiped out most of his mooks at this point, having already cleared the guard shack and barracks. If he suckers the party into a fight, but is too close, it isn't going to work for him because he risks getting crapped on by save or suck spells.
Without knowing what his schtick is, I doubt the party would choose to stay in a barricaded structure instead of retreating to the woods. If they don't capture and question the guy they are about to throw down with, they won't get a chance to find out.
Anything is possible. I just think it is interesting.
if they do go for a wooded area, he could save himself a lot of hassle and set it on fire, he doesn't have to risk himself or his remaining mooks, it gives the players a non-combat challenge to overcome so that they don't need their combat spells and such, and afterward, they could come back for him, or as I suggested earlier, he could get away, rebuild and they can cross paths later.
The Indescribable wrote: if they do go for a wooded area, he could save himself a lot of hassle and set it on fire, he doesn't have to risk himself or his remaining mooks, it gives the players a non-combat challenge to overcome so that they don't need their combat spells and such, and afterward, they could come back for him, or as I suggested earlier, he could get away, rebuild and they can cross paths later. Food for thought for sure!
just gotta think outside the box a little, which when in the middle of a game can be a bit difficult, but having people to bounce ideas off of helps, that said, if you'd care for it, so long as it's not kingmaker, we could message via skype or do it privately and you can describe the scenario in more full detail, so long as it's not kingmaker, I don't care about spoilers.
SockPuppet wrote: Avatar-1 wrote: Is this a group that has clearly stated they love hard-mode challenges? Yeah, I told them I'm running the module as written, besides what adjustments I need to raise the level of the first few sections. I told them that I am going to play the enemies intelligently, and that I'm rolling all my dice in the open. In return, they wrote some of the most power gaming, min/maxed pieces of crap I've ever seen and I let one of them put 100% of his starting wealth into his magic items so that he could get that next level cheese. Hang on - that's a bunch of warnings you've given them, and they've reacted.
Have they actively told you (or discussed with each other) that they prefer playing super hard mode games?
I don't mean just created characters that are near-impossible for a GM to beat, because that's quite possibly a different playstyle again. They'd have the same response if they just like winning all the damn time to the expense of the GM's well-kept story plans (which happens a lot).
Ibfind it interesting and ao far not particularly unfair... he raises it according to cr guidelines. He mentioned thay the group has enough info to realize the dungeon is run by something intelligent.
The group isnt gatherinf any info it soundsnlike. So they dont have any clue how deep the dungeon is. If they up and leave and sleep anyone unsafem it makes sense he bad guy would retaliate. Or that he'll gather morw minions, or just take everything and leave.
Inly possible issue hete would be he bad guy bosses choices. If he didnt research or spy on the group, I imagine he would assume they were very strong after nukinf his home. Likely would escape if that went down.
Rp games arent video games he world doesnt freeze when your not in hat area. The dm sure is making them the center, since they are actively winning etc. But he just isnt pulling his punches.
The Indescribable wrote: just gotta think outside the box a little, which when in the middle of a game can be a bit difficult, but having people to bounce ideas off of helps, that said, if you'd care for it, so long as it's not kingmaker, we could message via skype or do it privately and you can describe the scenario in more full detail, so long as it's not kingmaker, I don't care about spoilers.
I appreciate it. I'll message you on here and let you know if I need some ideas.
Zwordsman wrote: Ibfind it interesting and ao far not particularly unfair... he raises it according to cr guidelines. He mentioned thay the group has enough info to realize the dungeon is run by something intelligent.
The group isnt gatherinf any info it soundsnlike. So they dont have any clue how deep the dungeon is. If they up and leave and sleep anyone unsafem it makes sense he bad guy would retaliate. Or that he'll gather morw minions, or just take everything and leave.
Inly possible issue hete would be he bad guy bosses choices. If he didnt research or spy on the group, I imagine he would assume they were very strong after nukinf his home. Likely would escape if that went down.
Rp games arent video games he world doesnt freeze when your not in hat area. The dm sure is making them the center, since they are actively winning etc. But he just isnt pulling his punches.
Right on.
I think, the more I think about it and look at the module, he will just cut his loses and run with what loot he has and leave the door open so the party can hassle his down stairs neighbors.
Thanks for the advice gents! I'm inclined towards the hard core throw down but there is room for some love. It works right in with the story.
If you leave the door open downstairs as it were.
You could prep some sorta ogre or gnoll or troll fight, then the group might not realize there was a boss or you could allude to it with some other info that alerts them that the main guy got away and he purposfully tried to cause the group to have an unpleasent run in with the group. That way the group gets a real "end fight" feeling but the guy gets away.
basically sap CR fight they originally would have and a plot hook for the guy later.
Though if the group runs into the guy or something else strange occurs be ready to nix the extra fight- just on the basis of fairness and that it's a premade module (i think?)
Removed posts. Do not use the word "rape" in that fashion.
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