It is pretty clear to me in the part that i bold and in the rest of the the quote that the arm doesn´t guive you extra attacks but can attack and hold weapons. So for me i´m right. If you interpret different it´s ok, you keep your version i keep mine.
You can interpret it incorrectly if you want. I have no problem with that. But when you start posting incorrect information on the boards, I will correct you.
You can interpret it incorrectly if you want. I have no problem with that.But when you start posting doubtful information i will disagree with you and whait for a real quote that really show that my informatio is incorrect.
No it doesn't. The vestigial arm doscovery specifically states that it does not give you any extra attacks or actions, therefore no matter how many vestigial arms you have, you cannot dual-wield two-handed weapons.
If you want to wield to bows, you need to be a race that naturally has 4 arms, like the kasatha (sp), and take Multi-weapon Fighting.
That won't work. But this archetype will! From people of the stars:
Twin Bows (Ex): At 1st level, a bow nomad can simultaneously wield a combination of two of any of the following ranged weapons: shortbow, longbow, and their composite versions. When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a -4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows. Extra attacks from other sources, such as those granted by Manyshot or Rapid Shot, can be applied to only one of the wielded bows per round. This ability replaces wild empathy.
Combat Style (Ex): At 2nd level, a bow nomad must select archery as her combat style.
Agile Maneuvers: At 3rd level, a bow nomad gains Agile Maneuvers as a bonus feat. This replaces Endurance.
Trick Shot (Ex): A bow nomad can make a number of trick shots per day equal to 1/2 her ranger level + her Dexterity modifier. Unless otherwise noted, making a trick shot is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
- Deflecting Arrow: At 3rd level, as an immediate action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, a bow nomad can deflect a single ranged attack. This ability functions as the Deflect Arrows feat, except the bow nomad need not have a hand free and can deflect an attack targeting any creature within 30 feet.
- Hampering Strike: At 8th level, a bow nomad can attempt to disarm or trip an opponent within 30 feet in place of a ranged attack, with a -4 penalty on the combat maneuver check.
- Pinning Strike: At 13th level, a bow nomad can attempt to pin a Large or smaller opponent's limb or clothing to the ground or a wall in place of an attack. If the bow nomad's attack roll exceeds her opponent's CMD, the opponent is pinned and cannot move from its current position. As a move action, the opponent can attempt a Strength check to free itself (DC = 10 + 1/2 the bow nomad's ranger level + her Strength modifier).
Only creatures adjacent to a solid, anchored, penetrable surface can be affected by this ability. - Exploit the Gap: At 18th level, a bow nomad can exploit the natural weaknesses of her foes. When a bow nomad makes a full attack with her twin bows, each arrow that deals damage in that attack also reduces the target's natural armor bonus (if any) by 1 (to a minimum of o) for 1 round.
This ability replaces favored terrain.
Focused Fire (Ex): At 6th level, the bow nomad must select the Manyshot feat as her 6th-level combat style feat. In addition to the normal benefit of Manyshot, the bow nomad can specify the bow in her off hands as the source of the second arrow (precision damage and critical damage are still only added once). The bow nomad takes no two-weapon penalties when using this ability, but she cannot use it and Two-Weapon Fighting in the same round. The nomad can still choose to use Manyshot in the normal manner. At 11th and 16th level, the bow nomad can apply this ability to each of her iterative attacks. This ability alters the 6th-level combat style feat and replaces camouflage and hide in plain sight.
Can the extra arms for the Alchemist assist with holding a weapon, without contributing to more attacks?
For example: Left arm + extra left arm wield a greatsword; right arm + extra right arm wield a great sword. You are still only getting two attacks per round for two-weapon fighting. The extra arms are just letting them be 2-handed weapons.
Now do the same for two bows. Does that not work? It's not an extra attack beyond the 2 you would get for dual wielding two ranged weapons. It's just letting you use a bow in each hand for the two-weapon fighting.
That´s what i think.
Changing subject, you can make a great damage whith a inquisitor:
Destruction domain: Destructive aura + named bullet + staggering critical.
No, you cannot wield two two-handed weapons even with vestigial arms, because you only get one primary hand no matter what. Two-handed weapons require a primary hand and an off-hand. Beyond that, vesitigial arms don't grant additional "hands".
*Remember, this goes back to the metaphoirical hands argument that upset a lot of people, but this is still the ruling. You only have one primary and one off hand, regardless of the number of physical arms or hands you have. Making a two handed weapon atatck consumes one of each.
Further, after that FAQ was issued developers continued to comment and basically said that so long as the number of attacks you make with and without vestigial arms was the same that it was a valid attack sequence.
So the example they used, where you could two weapon fight with your main hand and a vestigial arm, is a special case where instead of making a primary attack and an off-hand attack, you are making a primary attack and a vestigial arm attack?
Yes, the vestigial arm essentially subsumes your off-hand attack.
No, you cannot wield two two-handed weapons even with vestigial arms, because you only get one primary hand no matter what. Two-handed weapons require a primary hand and an off-hand.
Not true. You can quote where that is write on the book?
Beyond that, vesitigial arms don't grant additional "hands".
"The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time)."
No, you cannot wield two two-handed weapons even with vestigial arms, because you only get one primary hand no matter what. Two-handed weapons require a primary hand and an off-hand.Not true. You can quote where that is write on the book?
Beyond that, vesitigial arms don't grant additional "hands"."The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time)."
As I mentioned, it's part of the "unwritten" rules part that people complained about. If you want to find it, find the 1300 post thread about vestigial arms and wade through it. It doesn't grant you additional hands of effort.
Where is BBT and other when you need them? They hated the ruling, but they should be able to confirm that you cannot dual wield bows as you are suggesting to do.
At the very least, the FAQ should make it clear that you cannot do as you are suggesting.
I can see both sides of the argument, and if the intent is for vestigial arms to not be able to assist with a two-handed weapon, that is fine, but it doesn't seem so clearly explained, even in the FAQ that was quoted.
+1
..and i´m not forcing no one to agree with me. So, don´t do the this with me.
Further, after that FAQ was issued developers continued to comment and basically said that so long as the number of attacks you make with and without vestigial arms was the same that it was a valid attack sequence.This would seem to be the opposite of what you previously said though. If they say "as long as you are making the same number of attacks...it [is] a valid attack sequence", then the number of attacks isn't changing. Just the size of the weapon being used (two-handed vs one-handed or light).
I can see both sides of the argument, and if the intent is for vestigial arms to not be able to assist with a two-handed weapon, that is fine, but it doesn't seem so clearly explained, even in the FAQ that was quoted.
I agree that it is a cluster frak. I use the FAQ that was written to guide me, as the other part I said was merely some developer commentary that about after the FAQ. It was an exceptionally long thread and a lot of heated disagreement. I admit that I did not read a lot of the thread just because of how huge it got.
But I can assure you their is no interpretation (by the developers) that would allow you to dual wield any sort of two-handed weapon.
Bow Inquisitor damage:
1d8+ 4d6 g.bane + 7 judgment + 5 weapon + 5 str + 1 bracer + 8 deadly aim
1d8 + 4d6 + 26
within 30ft + destruction aura : 1d8 + 4d6 + 36
within 30ft + destruction aura + named bullet auto crit: 3d8 +4d6 + 128 + staggering
Gwen, can you run the DPR numbers for a level 12 human inquisitor archer? Assume the inquisition does not have any effect on combat.
Ability scores are 14/24/12/14/7
Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Weapon Focus (longbow)
Weapon: +3 adaptive composite longbow w/ cold iron arrowsAssume Destruction and Justice judgements are up for all combats and Greater Bane and haste are up for all full-round attacks.
He also has heroism up for most combats, but it's not 100% of the time.
By "+3 adaptive composite longbow", do you mean a composite longbow with STR mod +3 or a longbow with a +3 enhancement bonus?
(It will probably be this evening before I get a chance to run the numbers.)
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Claxon and
Bigdaddyjug
are correct. The Vestigial arms would not allow you to use two bows at the same time.
My Zen Archer/Evangelist of Erastil
At Level 16 will have wisdom to hit (twice within 30 feet), Wisdom and Strength to damage, on top of all the othr goodies Zen Archers get (albeit 1 level behind)
Debatable, while we are on the topic please go Here and FAQ the topic.
I personally am in the school that they should stack, but some actual clarification would be awesome! Especially since this affects so many different archetype/feat combos. Thank you!
No, you cannot wield two two-handed weapons even with vestigial arms, because you only get one primary hand no matter what. Two-handed weapons require a primary hand and an off-hand. Beyond that, vesitigial arms don't grant additional "hands".
*Remember, this goes back to the metaphoirical hands argument that upset a lot of people, but this is still the ruling. You only have one primary and one off hand, regardless of the number of physical arms or hands you have. Making a two handed weapon atatck consumes one of each.
Further, after that FAQ was issued developers continued to comment and basically said that so long as the number of attacks you make with and without vestigial arms was the same that it was a valid attack sequence.
Bows are not 2-handed weapons. They are ranged weapons that you must use two physical hands to hold.
As for metaphysical "hands" of effort, I think you are probably on the right track that the "off- hand" bow would be limited to .5 STR rating.
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You can't have an offhand bow, unless you are a kasatha.No, you cannot wield two two-handed weapons even with vestigial arms, because you only get one primary hand no matter what. Two-handed weapons require a primary hand and an off-hand. Beyond that, vesitigial arms don't grant additional "hands".
*Remember, this goes back to the metaphoirical hands argument that upset a lot of people, but this is still the ruling. You only have one primary and one off hand, regardless of the number of physical arms or hands you have. Making a two handed weapon atatck consumes one of each.
Further, after that FAQ was issued developers continued to comment and basically said that so long as the number of attacks you make with and without vestigial arms was the same that it was a valid attack sequence.
Bows are not 2-handed weapons. They are ranged weapons that you must use two physical hands to hold.
As for metaphysical "hands" of effort, I think you are probably on the right track that the "off- hand" bow would be limited to .5 STR rating.
Xill says hi.
The key to understanding Vestigial arm is, "Can I make these attacks without the arm?"
Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries?
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).
Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.
Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
So since using a bow uses 2 hands, vestigial arm wont give you more or let you dual wield bows because you'd be generating extra bow attacks. Using a bow uses 2 hands and using two bows uses 4 hands. thus you'd be making 4 hands worth of attacks which is clearly disallowed. This also fall under this FAQ
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
Sorry for this ruining your double bow build.
To get the answer you'd basically need to define what situation you mean highest DPR in. Is it single target? What monster type? Multiple targets in one encounter of the same monster type? Over the course of an entire AP (1-17)? Just until level 8?
Your question is so vague no one can possibly answer it because variables in party makeup and encounter type change the answer. You're not going to get good answers without asking specific questions.I can assure you every class shines at archer for different reasons, but asking for the best DPR you're marginalizing a couple who contribute great utility.
Zen Archers don't have the best damage of archers, that is true; but they are almost invincible, if your DM is not constantly sending monsters of CR+5.
When I stopped playing my Zen Archer at level 19 he had
Spell Resistance 29,
saves of +24/+21/+28 (+defiant luck and ring of Evasion),
Touch AC 37,
AC 43, 48 with Barkskin (working most of the day; AC was not totally optimised),
could "Stunning Fist" through his bow 19 times a day, "Quivering Palm" (1/day) both with a Fort DC of 29,
90ft movement,
a perception check of +43 (Stealth & Acrobatics +38),
19 Ki Points/day (only one time I needed them all),
23 feats (three of them from the Skilled Human racial trait, not counting Reflexive Shot = Snap Shot)
and
my attack Routine with Deadly Aim, Boots of Speed and Point Blank Shot was
+32/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17, damage: d8+23/ki Arrows 2d10+23.
I played this character for more than a year, so he was not just a tought experiment. And of course he too needed a good team to shine. And sometimes, of course, even he did not (I am not a fan of the Maze spell). It was fun playing him.
Of course a smiting Paladin would get +19 damage per shot just by smiting - no other martial can top that.
A luring cavalier can get it's level to damage as well while being a full martial like the paladin.
*Edit a Dwarf luring cavalier +28 damage possible.
A luring cavalier can get it's level to damage as well while being a full martial like the paladin.
Damn, you are right.
On the other hand, he does not top him... :)
Of course a smiting Paladin would get +19 damage per shot just by smiting - no other martial can top that.I got +31/+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16 (2d4+37/19-20 x2, Auto-Confirm Critical), Range - 400 ft. (80 ft., 5 increments, No Distance Penalty) with a Rock. Is that ok?
It's inferior to my +35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+20 /+20 before haste. Once you're free to ignore the rules you can simply make stuff up as you like :-)
Of course a smiting Paladin would get +19 damage per shot just by smiting - no other martial can top that.I got +31/+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16 (2d4+37/19-20 x2, Auto-Confirm Critical), Range - 400 ft. (80 ft., 5 increments, No Distance Penalty) with a Rock. Is that ok?
It is... ok. Of course you could be paladin of 19th level and add 19 damage on top of that. See what I mean?
The key to understanding Vestigial arm is, "Can I make these attacks without the arm?"
** spoiler omitted **...That is a little fuzzy though considering that they even specifically say that you can wield a weapon, bomb, and potion at the same time with them.
You just do not get the extra attacks more than normal, it never said what those attacks had to we with.
If he took the two weapon fighting feat, which adds another attack, there is nowhere in there that says what that attack has to be with. also.
"The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine."
His attack routine might be +8/+3 normal and +6/+6/+1/+1 when using two weapons.
If he wanted to use two bows, that does not break any rules. The arms are not adding extra attacks, they are just making his weapon choice bigger.
Same as if I wanted to wield 2 greatswords.
4 attacks is 4 attacks, no extra being made. Just uses a bigger weapon.
On the point of the Two-hand and off hand point, those two faqs are not related.
The extra hands are not making extra attacks, they are helping to make the normal amount of attacks.
The FAQs are related. They are exactly what you're trying to do. You want 2 2-handed weapons. But by using the 2-handed weapon you've used all your hands, you can't off hand anything. 4 2-handed attacks are more than 4 1-handed attacks. 1 two-handed and 1 1-handed is more than 2 1-handed, As per the second FAQ I posted.
You can hold all you want, you can only use a certain amount. You can hold a bomb, sword and potion. But if you wanted to attack you couldn't also drink the potion normally. If you had 2 attacks you could do sword and bomb or sword and sword. If you had 1 attack you'd be two-weapon fighting to use both sword and bomb, but you couldn't chose this option if your sword was a 2-hander.
Also how many bow attacks can a normal person do? attack routine might be +8/+3 so two attacks. Now how many are you saying that same attack routine could do with vestigial arms? +6/+6/+1/+1. You just generated 2 extra attacks. Doesn't matter that the +6/+6/+1/+1 is what you'd have for dual-wielding daggers. If the normal person can't do it, it counts as extra attacks. As far as I know, the only real benefit is using a shield for AC and attack with a two-handed weapon.
Also two-weapon fighting doesn't grant an extra attack, it just reduces the penalties for it.
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It is... ok. Of course you could be paladin of 19th level and add 19 damage on top of that. See what I mean?Of course a smiting Paladin would get +19 damage per shot just by smiting - no other martial can top that.I got +31/+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16 (2d4+37/19-20 x2, Auto-Confirm Critical), Range - 400 ft. (80 ft., 5 increments, No Distance Penalty) with a Rock. Is that ok?
Of course. =)
I am just an foolish man who is trying to promote a new Rock Revelation to go against the oppressive bows. Silly bows and their wood and silly strings, we need the strength of the earthto provide our power to overwhelm such evils!
Thrown Weapons! Crossbows, the red-headed child of the bow! Band together to stop the suppression of our abilities. We must rise up and revolt!
=)
So what about the armor spikes? They don't need a hand. Also the gauntlet one had nothing to do about arms, it stops your vestigial arm as much as it stops someone without it.
The key to understanding Vestigial arm is, "Can I make these attacks without the arm?"
** spoiler omitted **...That is a little fuzzy though considering that they even specifically say that you can wield a weapon, bomb, and potion at the same time with them.
You just do not get the extra attacks more than normal, it never said what those attacks had to we with.
If he took the two weapon fighting feat, which adds another attack, there is nowhere in there that says what that attack has to be with. also.
"The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine."
His attack routine might be +8/+3 normal and +6/+6/+1/+1 when using two weapons.
If he wanted to use two bows, that does not break any rules. The arms are not adding extra attacks, they are just making his weapon choice bigger.
Same as if I wanted to wield 2 greatswords.
4 attacks is 4 attacks, no extra being made. Just uses a bigger weapon.
On the point of the Two-hand and off hand point, those two faqs are not related.
The extra hands are not making extra attacks, they are helping to make the normal amount of attacks.
The FAQs are related. They are exactly what you're trying to do. You want 2 2-handed weapons. But by using the 2-handed weapon you've used all your hands, you can't off hand anything. 4 2-handed attacks are more than 4 1-handed attacks. 1 two-handed and 1 1-handed is more than 2 1-handed, As per the second FAQ I posted.
You can hold all you want, you can only use a certain amount. You can hold a bomb, sword and potion. But if you wanted to attack you couldn't also drink the potion normally. If you had 2 attacks you could do sword and bomb or sword and sword. If you had 1 attack you'd be two-weapon fighting to use both sword and bomb, but you couldn't chose this option if your sword was a 2-hander.
Also how many bow...
Bows are not two-handed weapons
No, but they require two hands to wield, which is functionally the same thing for the purpose of those 2 FAQs.
No it isn't. The FAQ's are specifically referencing two handed weapons because they grant 1.5x STR bonus to damage. Bows do not.
In terms of actual play, especially from 1st level, it's pretty hard to beat a ranged inquisitor for crazy damage output, and they can also do so many other things: casting spells, skill monkeys, self-buffing, and so on.
In a home game, I currently play a 15th level ranged inquisitor. We're restricted to CRB/APG only, and we're "low magic" in that we have no magic mart, and only use what we find - part of the reason I played an inquisitor was knowing of these restrictions: I wanted self-sufficiency and versatility.
Buffed up and with judgements and greater bane active, and with no magic items, he can reliably output an average of 290 damage/round (+32*/+32/+32/+27/+22; *manyshot - 1d8+24+4d6/19-20(x3))... add in magic items and the whole Pathfinder ouvre and this can rise considerably.
(If he cast greater invisibility on himself, add +2 to all of those to-hits, and make the target flat-footed for even more reliable damage output.)
Just a very versatile character with high DPS.