Some data
I understand the Sohei will have more attacks but how will that compare to the +11 to hit and damage that the Zen Archer/Evangelist will have due to the 3rd Boon? The Sohei can't have that high of a Wisdom and Strength and Dex.
Monk robes still don't affect unarmed strike of Sohei.
Also, why is the Sohei getting 2d8 arrows?
Also, the Zen Archer would have 2d10 Damage if he had the monk robe and used the KI point. I think with the 3rd Boon you hit the realm where burning the ki for extra attack is better than the unarmed damage.
Also, Add one attack to the Sohei cause he will always burn the Ki point.
Also, Add one attack to all of them due to Haste.
Because in the Zen Archer Class entry it specifically says he can't use Rapid Fire and Manyshot.
Why is the sohei able to add Rapid Shot and Manyshot to his flurry, but the zen archer isn't?
Edit: I also highly recommend that we stop using level 20 to compare these builds. Very few games even get that high, and anything happening at that level is ridiculous anyway. Why don't we use level 12? It's a nice mid-level that a lot of games reach, including all of the Paizo APs and PFS.
I would bet that level 12 would be Fighter on top followed closely by the Zen Archer. Sohei can't really compete until 15ish, but they spike the hardest. Im kind of curious to see the Sohei/Evangelist vs the Zen Archer/Evangelist. Does the extra two attacks make up for the massive boon 3 the Zen Archer gets?
Remember this is about DPR; personally The Zen Archer is the best due to being the most playable right out of the box. Along with skills and defensives.
slacker, I didn't add an extra attack due to haste because everybody will assume haste (either boots of speed or fellow caster buff) - Nice point on the sohei extra attack though.
Also, you're right, extra 70dmg > extra 7d8 dmg. Will change that
Haste is important due to different static damage.
Example: If my normal full attack is 1 hit once for 2d6+14, and yours is two hits for 1d6+7, we are equal until haste. Haste makes a bigger effect on the 2d6+14 causing 4d6+28 while your routine is 3d6+21.
Multiclass zen archer with kensai for max damage
Yuukale, the Evangelist can obviously help quite a bit, but I think those numbers can be very misleading since it requires you be within 30ft of the enemy. It also requires that people be allowed access to the Evangelist class, which isn't part of the core lineup of books.
Not to say it isn't good, but the are some large caveats on it. I also don't think it's beneficial to throw the fighter up with levels of Evangelist, the benefit isn't very good compared to straight fighter, mostly because of lost BAB.
You also aren't including the use of Deadly Aim for any of the classes.
Please post to-hit values for each, because total possible damage doesn't mean much if you can't hit anything (see: Rogue).
Leonardo, I'm trying to keep this to Pf-only (despite compatibility being... possible)
Monk(Zen Acher)/Magus(Kensai)
numbers
Can you explain your damage numbers.
Also, how does the sohei use Wisdom to hit?
numbersCan you explain your damage numbers.
Also, how does the sohei use Wisdom to hit?
From using Evangelist, which only applies within 30ft. It's not actually that good because of the distance restriction, and I don't think it's a fair comparison.
If you ignore Evangelist the Sohei and Zen-archers damage drops off drastically from his calculations. Not to mention that no Sohei is going to spend 14 levels with a high wisdom and no dex or strength to hit anything for those 14 levels.
Oh, and not only did he forget Deadly Aim in the damage he forget strength damage and magic weapon damage.
*Evangelist requires 14 character levels total to get the 3rd boon, and also requires you be a worshiper of Erastil.
I'm confused on your statement. If you have more attacks, then all the magic items etc becomes more important. An extra attack of 2d10+16 damage is better additive than 2d10 no? It will skew your results.Guys, so far I`m not counting items (other than the gloves for those with weapon training) because I'm assuming everybody will get a +5 bow (or +2/3 and complete the rest with features such as Sohei's ki strike) and get their attributes to the top.
My general starting stat bonuses for comparison are +2 damage (14 STR with composite bow) and +4 attack (18 DEX or WIS for monk). Like you, I don't usually bother with stacking the same items, since I'm interested in how the classes compare. I often don't bother doing the ability score increases from leveling and magic items, unless one class is somehow going to be different from another. If all the classes buy the same items at the same level, it just becomes noise in the class-to-class breakout.
Like you, I only ever count class-specific magic items. So far, this has been Gloves of Dueling for the fighter and Monk's Robe for the Zen Archer (since the Zen Archer can spend a ki point to increase damage to that of his unarmed strike). Up through 12th level, though, the Zen Archer is usually better off taking that Ki point for the additional attack, so the Monk's robe has less of an impact. After 12th level, it might be a better trade-off--I haven't broken it down that far.
It depends on what you're trying to find out.
If you are asking "How much damage will X build do on average?", then yes, items matter.
If you want to know "What's the maximum amount of damage this build could possibly do?", then you also want to include Haste and other round-duration buffs.
If you want to know "Which of these builds will do more damage?", then the only items that matter are the ones that not everyone can get. If every build gets the exact same "+4 to the attack stat" item at 10th level, then it doesn't change the ratio between them. For level by level comparisons, it just becomes one more thing to keep track of that doesn't have an impact on the end result. And Haste doesn't matter here, either, because it hits everyone in range.
I don't really find abstract calculations to be very interesting. Where DPR calculations really come in handy is in option comparisons, like "Which is the better buff spell, Gravity Bow or Aspect of the Falcon?" and "Is it worthwhile to give up a full attack to cast either of these buff spells?" or "Is the attack penalty in Deadly Aim always worth the damage bonus?"
To me, all the math is a source of useful information, not an end unto itself. For example, I had a TWF wakizashi specialist who came up against skeletal champions. Should I put the specialized weapons away and pull out the flails to get through the DR? Or should I stick with my focus weapons and hope that the +2 attack/+3 damage will make up the difference for what bounces off the DR? Hm...let's fire up the spreadsheet and see...
explain the dmg numbers? but their sources are all in parentheses o.o'
look at my post just after claxon's post.the wisdom to hit comes from Evangelist of Erastil as well, third boon. You get to use your wisdom bonus to hit and on damage o.o'
Two things: First the wisdom of the Zen Archer is going to be much higher WIS than the Sohei. Second, is that you have wisdom to hit twice for the Sohei. This is ok for the ZenArcher but the Sohei still uses DEX like everyone else.
From using Evangelist, which only applies within 30ft. It's not actually that good because of the distance restriction, and I don't think it's a fair comparison.
Really? Im Fairly sure Barbarians fighters all all those melee types have to be close to their target to do damage.
From using Evangelist, which only applies within 30ft. It's not actually that good because of the distance restriction, and I don't think it's a fair comparison.Really? Im Fairly sure Barbarians fighters all all those melee types have to be close to their target to do damage.
You're correct that melee types do have to be close. Interestingly, archers aren't melee types. And the sohei will lack point blank master (I don't believe there is any way for him to get it) so being up close to enemies while using a bow is a bad idea.
The only build it really is good for is a zen archer. Even then, they will likely have to spend a move action to get within 30 ft of the enemy to qualify, which also means the lose the ability to flurry for that round.
Archery is all about full attacks. If the zen archer or sohei start moving around to get into a certain range their sacrificing huge amounts of damage potential.
My real problem is that it's too situational to make an easy comparison with it since it will depend heavily on combat conditions.
But, as has been said, magic items can make a difference because of the number of attacks.
With a +5 weapon, if one build has 12 attacks, they get +60 damage overall, while a build that has 6 attacks will only get +30 damage from that same +5 weapon.
Yes, and if they both have a +3 weapon, the 12-attack build will get +36 compared to the 6-attack build's +18. If they both have a +1 weapon, it will be +12 compared to +6.
As long as they both get the exact same bonuses, it will be a 2:1 ratio. The amount of the bonus doesn't change the ratio.
If you're trying to figure out which build does more damage, identical bonuses are just a distraction. If Build A does more damage than Build B, adding the same item to both builds won't suddenly cause Build B to do more damage than Build A.
If you're trying to figure out exactly how much more damage Build A does over Build B, then go ahead and add it in. But I don't usually care whether Build A does 1.66 times as much damage or just 1.61 times as much damage as Build B.
You're correct that melee types do have to be close. Interestingly, archers aren't melee types. And the sohei will lack point blank master (I don't believe there is any way for him to get it) so being up close to enemies while using a bow is a bad idea.
The only build it really is good for is a zen archer. Even then, they will likely have to spend a move action to get within 30 ft of the enemy to qualify, which also means the lose the ability to flurry for that round.
Archery is all about full attacks. If the zen archer or sohei start moving around to get into a certain range their sacrificing huge amounts of damage potential.
My real problem is that it's too situational to make an easy comparison with it since it will depend heavily on combat conditions.
Two things on this.
First, majority of baddies have to close on you, due to them being melee. That is the reason Cranewing was nerfed when the same range feat (deflect arrows) has less prereqs and is underwelming. So if they want to stay outside of 30ft let them. You can just full round attack over and over. Really PBS comes into play more often than not in engagements in PFS and all the APs I have played.
Second, You can always change the situation. I was following the DPR rules just expanding it to level 20. There has to be a baseline. As discussed earlier in the thread.
You're correct that melee types do have to be close. Interestingly, archers aren't melee types. And the sohei will lack point blank master (I don't believe there is any way for him to get it) so being up close to enemies while using a bow is a bad idea.
The only build it really is good for is a zen archer. Even then, they will likely have to spend a move action to get within 30 ft of the enemy to qualify, which also means the lose the ability to flurry for that round.
Archery is all about full attacks. If the zen archer or sohei start moving around to get into a certain range their sacrificing huge amounts of damage potential.
My real problem is that it's too situational to make an easy comparison with it since it will depend heavily on combat conditions.
Two things on this.
First, majority of baddies have to close on you, due to them being melee. That is the reason Cranewing was nerfed when the same range feat (deflect arrows) has less prereqs and is underwelming. So if they want to stay outside of 30ft let them. You can just full round attack over and over. Really PBS comes into play more often than not in engagements in PFS and all the APs I have played.
Second, You can always change the situation. I was following the DPR rules just expanding it to level 20. There has to be a baseline. As discussed earlier in the thread.
Cranewing was nerfed because of Master of Many Styles allowed full access to crane wing bonuses without the negatives. Instead of fixing MoMS they nerfed crane style.
Still looking for some advice on my ZAM a few posts up.
Not sure on the traits you took. +2 Initiative is excellent for archers. There is also a trait that allows you to use wisdom instead of physical trait skill. Disable device is a good one if you don't have a rogue type.
Combat reflexes is also an odd choice. You shouldn't be in combat and making AOO much. Improved Initiative is very good. Maybe a theme here, going first is a big win for an archer, it's almost as good as getting an extra round; killing the caster first, dealing with the dangerous baddies that aren't up front before they can do bad things to your group.
Is there a way to do a decent archer build as a cleric or oracle? It doesn't have to be super-optimal, but has to keep up.
Peet
On the other hand, if your 12 attack build already has cap to hit, and your 6 attack does not, then your 6 attack build will have a larger percentage increase on their original DPR.
Or in other words.
.95*2d6+13 (19) obviously does more than .6*2d6+3 (6).
But giving each one a +5 item gives us
.95*2d6+18 (23.75) or a flat 25% increase versus .85*2d6+8 (12.75), which has over doubled this builds original DPR (112.5% increase). Furthermore, the increased stats from the bonus to hit has closed the gap.
Depending on what original to hit and damage look like, as well as number of attacks, the relationship between the two may well change based on equipment given
Which would answer the questions "Which of these builds benefits more from an item?" and "What's the exact damage difference between these two builds?" and "What would it take to close the gap between these two builds?" And I've also played around with those, too, but I've yet to see a situation where adding the same bonus flipped the "Which build does more damage?" answer.
I'm also wary about assuming items in global, across-the-board statements. I've seen a lot of comments like "You can always find a tome", but in (cough) years of playing (since AD&D), I've never actually run across one. Some GMs restrict items just by house rule, and some story lines limit access to items based on location and circumstance. (For example, a Wand Wielder Magus in Dragon's Demand is SoL: there are no wands to be had and you don't have time to craft your own.) The statements "An archer always does more damage than a melee character" and "An archer will do more damage than a melee character if the archer has Bracers of Falcon's Aim and a Nimble, Seeking Bow with Endless Ammunition" are not equivalent.
Zen Archer/Magus Kensai
Monastic Legacy + Robe keep the base damage 2d10
Permanent enlarge: 4d8
Wand of Strong jaw(buff standard): 8d8
Gravity Bow(buff swift):12d8
Weapon +5
Str +5
W.Sp +2
Deadly aim +10
7 attacks (flurry)
12d8 + 22 damage = 84d8+154 total
With Magus Kensai Perfect Strike = (84x8)+154 = 826
I'm surprised more hasn't been said for Improved Snap Shot. With a 15' range, Combat Reflexes, and moving back every turn, you can easily get another half-dozen attacks on anything that comes near you at full BAB.
The traits were a holdover from when that portfolio was a cleric. I forgot to change them. I'll take Reactionary and something else. As for Combat Reflexes, with getting Point Blank Master for free, I figured I'd go for the Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot feats and threaten 15 feet in every direction. And with the AC this guy will have, why not get right up in the thick of it. Also Combat Reflexes is nice to take a kick at someone who walks past you thinking you don't threaten in melee because you have a longbow out.Still looking for some advice on my ZAM a few posts up.Not sure on the traits you took. +2 Initiative is excellent for archers. There is also a trait that allows you to use wisdom instead of physical trait skill. Disable device is a good one if you don't have a rogue type.
Combat reflexes is also an odd choice. You shouldn't be in combat and making AOO much. Improved Initiative is very good. Maybe a theme here, going first is a big win for an archer, it's almost as good as getting an extra round; killing the caster first, dealing with the dangerous baddies that aren't up front before they can do bad things to your group.
Combat Reflexes only work if you have more than one AOO a round. It's only when you get more than one in a round that it kicks in, which should be pretty rare. And your dex isn't going to be high so instead of one, you will get two. It's very situational and will be rarely used, there could be better options on things you will use much more often like +4 to initiative.
Cranewing was nerfed because of Master of Many Styles allowed full access to crane wing bonuses without the negatives. Instead of fixing MoMS they nerfed crane style.
This is not accurate statement. When you used Crane Wing as a MoMS or as any other class you still had to be in crane style and taking the appropriate negatives to hit.
And my statement is still accurate, Deflect Arrows does the same thing that Crane Wing did except for range. And it can be picked up at level 1. The statement was used to show that 90% of baddies in PFS or in APs are melee oriented. Crane Wing in its previous form was better than Deflect arrows due to the amount of use you could get out of the feat.
@Bigdaddyjug - Do you have the build fleshed out? Cause to get the snapshot chain you are going to have to use 4 feats. One of those feats will be a dead feat. Combat Reflexes, Rapid shot (dead), Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot are all needed before this works. Thats not the easiest to fit into your build in PFS due to level 12 restriction and most peoples desire to have some out of combat utility.
Granted I know you, You like being able to solo the whole scenario on your own. But consider that you cant take an AoO against anyone that has any type of cover. So it doesn't come up as much as you would think. I would put my vote in for Improved Initiative. Also, the guild to the classes has a guide that is really someone who made "One" and extremely optimized Zen Archer. Just copy that, its what you are looking for.
Two things on this.
First, majority of baddies have to close on you, due to them being melee. That is the reason Cranewing was nerfed when the same range feat (deflect arrows) has less prereqs and is underwelming. So if they want to stay outside of 30ft let them. You can just full round attack over and over. Really PBS comes into play more often than not in engagements in PFS and all the APs I have played.
Second, You can always change the situation. I was following the DPR rules just expanding it to level 20. There has to be a baseline. As discussed earlier in the thread.
In order for them to damage you, yes they would need to get close to you. But generally they seem to have deal with the melee characters in front of me, or the opt to go for the wizard instead of me. I understand this is anecdotal evidence, but at the same time my point is that you can't simply say "Yes, all enemies are always in 30ft and you can always apply the Evangelist bonus." More personal experience, in the Skull and Shackles Campaign I'm playing in as a Ranger I'm almost never within 30ft. Usually within 110ft, but almost never within 30.
Heck, you weren't even the one making the builds, so I'm not sure why you're stressing over it. If anything, DPR calculation should be made with and without. Which certianly wasn't being done, Ukakle was only showing the maximum damage potential but wasn't even including key components of damage (like strength or deadly aim) and also wasn't posting to hit numbers.
MoMS allowed a character to get advanced feats with bonus feats. Monk gets bonus feats at 1st and 2nd level. So taking crane style at level one, crane wing at level one bonus and crane riposte as bonus level 2 feat.
-1 attack for not only dodging a hitting attack but also getting a AOO made it very strong. Getting it level 2 make it insane. Most mobs had one attack.
Loosing flurry of blows is pretty serious...but only taking a 2 level dip made it very sweet. There is also the tasty treat of evasion, wisdom bonus to AC, unarmed strike. Great saves. Add with Crane Wing style, it was a insanely strong dip.
Forcing one to take 7 levels of monk made it far less tasty, getting it later when mobs had more than one attack made it less strong. Taking only 2 levels of MoMS made the very serious negatives of MoMS moot. MoMS was made for dipping, few serious monks would ever take it because of the lack of flurry. But instead of fixing MoMS, they nerfed crane style.
You have a minor point about ranged mobs. If deflect arrows worked on ranged touch attack spells and you could throw them back like snatch arrows and have it at level 2? This would be as strong. Adding too many ranged mobs would make it more tactical, having 5 or more opponents with archers and front liners would make it a different game and casters would get creamed, just like we do when we see casters. Front liners make for single tough mobs, that are quick to down, feel good and get on with the story without taking too many resources of the party.
Mydrrim - your derailing the thread. This is not about crane wing/deflect arrows. Once again, that was used to show the relevance of Melee to Ranged combat.
Claxon - Im playing a Zen Archer in Skull and shackles right now. Ship tiles are 30ft. Im fairly sure all the ships are that wide. So when I bring my ship in for a boarding action and Im standing at the rail 30 ft gets me to the end of the next ship. Once you add in some adjacent angles It can get farther but Im worried about their captain and I know he is going to be at the wheel. With good tactics, a vast majority of my shots are within 30ft. Still this is another derail. If you get to calculate barbarian DPR with him being at the baddie the zen archer will too. Being it makes that much of a difference I would make it a point to be in range.
I used Stat array of 15,14,13,12,10,8. I thought I was using the elite array but the 13 should be an 11. This shifts the 3rd and 4th states and I didn't feel like fixing it. Anyway as you requested Claxon. Take into mind, there ARE probably some errors. I have not double checked it and I did it fairly quickly.
STR: 24 (+7) (14 base, +4 Tome, +6 belt)
DEX: 18 (+4) (12 base, +6 belt)
CON: 20 (+5) (13 base, +1 tome, +6 belt)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 32 (+11) (15 base, +2 racial, +5 level, +4 Tome, +6 belt)
CHA: 8 (-1)
Saving Throws
Fort: +21 Ref: +24 Will: +28
AC: 50 - Touch 38, Flatfooted 45 (+10 base, +8 Armor, +11 WIS bonus, +4 dex, +5 Barkskin, +5 Ring of Protection, Monk bonus +4, +1 Dodge, +2 Protective Grace)
Spell Resistance - 29
Attacks: See Bottom
Class Abilities:
Flurry of Blows
Perfect Stike (replace Stunning Fist)
Way of the Bow (Replaces Evasion)
Fast Movement
Zen Archery (replaces Maneuver Training)
Ki Pool (11 points)
Barkskin (replace Slow Fall)
High Jump or Acrobatic Step
Ki Arrows (replaces Purity of Body)
Wholeness of Body
Reflexive Shot (replaces Improved Evasion)
Obedience
Skilled
Align Class
Protective Grace +2
Divine Boon 1 - cure light wounds 3/day, shield other 2/day, or prayer 1/day
Divine Boon 2 - Use summon nature’s ally V as a spell-like ability once per day.
Divine Boon 3 - With a longbow, add your Wisdom bonus to attack & damage against targets within 30 feet.
Gift of Tongues +2
Multitude of Talents
Spiritual Form
Trick Shot (replaces Diamond Body)
Abundant Step
Diamond Soul
Quivering Palm
Timeless Body
Empty Body
Ki Focus Bow (replaces Tongue of the sun and Moon)
BAB: +14 CMB: +21 CMD: 65
Feats:
1st: Toughness
Human: Improved Initiative
Monk 1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1st: Perfect Strike (bow, special)
Monk 1st: Precise Shot
Monk 2nd: Weapon Focus (longbow)
Monk 2nd: Point Blank Shot
Monk 3rd: Point Blank Master
3rd: Deadly Aim
5th: Deific Obedience
Monk 6th: Specialization (longbow)
Monk 6th: Improved Precise Shot
7th: Defensive Combat Training
9th: Clustered Shots
Monk 10th: Improved Critical (longbow)
11th: Hammer the Gap
13th: Stunning Fist
15th: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
Character level 15 - Monk 14th: Pin Point Targeting
17th: Lighting Reflexes
19th: Mantis Style
Character level 19 - Monk 18th: Dodge
Skills (5 per level):
Max Perception
Max Acrobatics
Max Sense Motive
Max Stealth
Sprinkle last ranks out
Gear (880,000gp):
Belt of physical perfection+6 (144,000g, 1lb)
Headband of Wis+6 (36,000gp, 1lb)
Manual of Wisdom +4 (expended, 110,000gp)
Manual of strength +4 (expended, 110,000gp)
Manual of Consitution +1 (expended, 27,500)
Composite Seeking Merciful *str24* longbow+5 (99,100gp, 3lb, hardness 15, hp55)
Ring of protection+5 & counterspells (56,000gp; greater dispel 660gp)
Ring of Ki Mastery & Substance & counterspells (19,750gp; greater dispel 660gp)
Bracers of Armor +8 & Greater archery (64000+37,500=101,500gp)
Cloak of resistance+5 (25,000gp, 1lb)
Luckstone (20,000gp)
Boots of speed (12,000gp, 1lb)
Bottle of air (7250gp, 1lb)
ioun stone +1 armor (5000gp)
eyes of the eagle (2500gp)
handy haversack (2000gp, 5lb)
2 ioun torches (150gp)
mwk backpack (50gp, 4lb)
300 arrows (15gp, 45lb)
cold iron knuckle (2gp, 1lb)
2 weapon cords
127,183 gp
His attack routine is:
Flurry, Hasted, Deadly Aim while burning Ki point, and being within 30ft=
+43/+43/+43/+43/+38/+38/+33/+33/+28
For 1d8+37+1d6 dmg (19-20/x3) (DC 31 fort save or be stunned)
His average damage per round vs AC 40 is 385.182 with 25% chance at Stun.
This is vs AC 40 and Fort save of 26 which I got from averaging (rounding up) the AC of a Balor, Pit fiend, Solar, and Great wyrm Red dragon.
His average damage per round vs AC 50 is 226.733.
He has 127k gold to spend. This could be used for Holy on his bow or a number of other Things.
Claxon - Im playing a Zen Archer in Skull and shackles right now. Ship tiles are 30ft. Im fairly sure all the ships are that wide. So when I bring my ship in for a boarding action and Im standing at the rail 30 ft gets me to the end of the next ship. Once you add in some adjacent angles It can get farther but Im worried about their captain and I know he is going to be at the wheel. With good tactics, a vast majority of my shots are within 30ft. Still this is another derail. If you get to calculate barbarian DPR with him being at the baddie the zen archer will too. Being it makes that much of a difference I would make it a point to be in range.
Still, I have issue with it. People understand when you show melee DPR that they have to be in their face, but I feel like with this pariticular case it makes a huge difference, and so at the very least the damage should be shown with and without. We have vastly different experiences in game play it seems, and that just further reinforces my point that it's not something you can count on all the time. And sure you can get into 30ft of an enemy, and for a zen archer isn't much of a problem with Point Blank Master and a good AC, but every time you move you can't flurry and you only make one attack which is a huge decrease in damage over the course of the fight.
Fair points. I was thinking Snap Shot and Imp Snap Shot were on the list of bonus feats for a ZAM. In that case, I'll switch Combat Reflexes out for Improved Initiative.
Also, what is this trait that allows you to use Wis for a Str or Dex based skill? I can't find anything like that anywhere.
Also, a note for your bow in that build Slacker, it ends up being cheaper to just put adaptive on the bow early on rather than mighty +7.
And hey! I don't want to solo the scenario on my own. I just want to be able to in case I need to.
Are you in my local PFS group or do I just post too much on the forums? lol
Wisdom in the Flesh is the trait you are looking for.
True point on the Adaptive, Mighty +7 isnt very organic and realistic if you are playing the character 1 to 20.
Yes I play in your general area. We swap ideas, I have played with you and at your table. I watched you drown multiple Summoners on "The Confirmation" at CoastCon.
Still, I have issue with it. People understand when you show melee DPR that they have to be in their face, but I feel like with this pariticular case it makes a huge difference, and so at the very least the damage should be shown with and without. We have vastly different experiences in game play it seems, and that just further reinforces my point that it's not something you can count on all the time. And sure you can get into 30ft of an enemy, and for a zen archer isn't much of a problem with Point Blank Master and a good AC, but every time you move you can't flurry and you only make one attack which is a huge decrease in damage over the course of the fight.
That is fine, we can agree to disagree. I "feel" its a tactics issue. If they are not within 30ft of me they are not hurting my teammates, and I will still murder them at range. Just not as fast. Kind of the same reason if you shot me a wizard build im not going to complain about your HPs or AC. Good group tactics and your melees will run interference for you. I put all this in that category.
I dont feel like doing the numbers again, im dumb and didn't do it in a spreadsheet. He is getting +12/+12 (Boon3 & PBS) if they are within 30 ft. So its going to be a HUGE hit to the numbers. He could also take the time to activate spirit form and gain +4 Wisdom and flying as his first standard action if he needs.