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I recently saw a reminder of something I had forgotten -- Asmodeus is actually mentioned by name in the Bible (or in the Catholic version, at least). In the Book of Tobit, he murders seven of a woman's husbands on their wedding nights. I must admit that I see very little resemblance between this monster and the more Satan-like version in Pathfinder.
we must have different bibles, because I don't recogonize Tobit, or that story
I never said I wasn't! :D
we must have different bibles, because I don't recogonize Tobit, or that storyI recently saw a reminder of something I had forgotten -- Asmodeus is actually mentioned by name in the Bible (or in the Catholic version, at least). In the Book of Tobit, he murders seven of a woman's husbands on their wedding nights. I must admit that I see very little resemblance between this monster and the more Satan-like version in Pathfinder.
Tobit is a book in the Apocrypha, hence his caveat "or in the Catholic version, at least". Given it's Deuterocanonical status, and that said elements are mostly within Catholic variants of the scriptures (as well as a number of high-tradition Protestant groups; many of which ascribe to "non-literal interpretation" view of many of the Scriptural stories), very, very few religious actually accept it as truth or as equal relevance to the Scripture as a whole - generally the Apocrypha, where accepted, is accepted as either interesting historical information (the rebellions of the Maccabes being an example of this) or myths that speak to greater truths (such as Bel and the Dragon), all of which relate to the area in and around the area of Israel and its people during the 400 year silence between the Old and New Testaments (and a few additional stories relating to the Old Testament).
Myself being raised without the Apocrypha, I know very little of the Book of Tobit, and only vaguely recall what I learned of it in Biblical studies, so I can't help you there. Sorry!
EDIT: If you're curious.
Zon-Khuton worshippers aren't crazy. The sadist point of view has a lot of intelligent followers on this earth. Think Marquis de Sade (philosophy in the bedroom, 120 days of Sodom). Imo; sick: yes. Crazy : no.
Xanatos needs stats as a deity
I'm pretty sure Asmodeus already has stats, doesn't he? Domains and what not, anyway.
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Zon-Khuton worshippers aren't crazy. The sadist point of view has a lot of intelligent followers on this earth. Think Marquis de Sade (philosophy in the bedroom, 120 days of Sodom). Imo; sick: yes. Crazy : no.
Speaking as someone into BDSM...Zon Kuthon's followers are f%@@ing nuts. Read up on the 'Joyful Things' if you don't believe me, or read the novel Nightglass. They aren't just sadists, they're a lot of other things too, many of them quite mad by reasonable standards.
Now, if you're raised in Nidal, you'd think it would seem normal and reasonable. You'd be wrong. Even the people there follow Zon-Kuthon out of fear, not love or true devotion, and live their lives terrified of the clergy...who they pretty much regard as insane as well as dangerous.
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See, it seems to me that several of the Evil gods have rather nasty clergy that people would likely fear, even if you were of evil alignment.
~~Zon-Kuthon's, as has been stated, have an almost kytonesque attitude, which makes them sound like a bunch of people who saw the movie Hellraiser and said "Yeah, I'd like to open the puzzle box". At least, that's my take on it.
~~Asmodeus's are the lawyer you never want to be up against, because they will take whatever you say, find the tiniest loophole, and use it to "prove" guilt in something you were never guilty of — but they can get you off for a small fee.
~~Rovagug's are probably driven by a lot of different motives, but they're all mad and warped into the deep end. Revenge against someone gone too far, a lust for destruction few can comprehend, a form of nihilism most nihilists would feel alarmed with...
~~Norgorber's priesthood will kill you. Period. They are invisible. They can be anyone, anywhere. They know all your secrets, and they will not hesitate to kill you if they feel it's in the best interest of their secrets. They see all, they hide all, and they will kill you if they want to.
~~Lamashtu is the refuge for those who think Echidna Did Nothing Wrong. A goddess of unfettered growth with worshippers who believe the greatest pregnancy is one that splits the host open like a rotten pumpkin... it's a wonder she has any followers. Then again, some people are just nuts.
~~Urgothoa's clergy are obsessed with undeath and overindulgence. The vampire who drains every victim bone dry, the ghast which devours every last remnant of a town in a single night... these are her most ardent servants, and vorarephilia is probably quite common among her living followers.
Am I missing anyone?
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See, it seems to me that several of the Evil gods have rather nasty clergy that people would likely fear, even if you were of evil alignment.
Isn't that how it should be? Evil doesn't play well with others, says so right on the tin.
See, it seems to me that several of the Evil gods have rather nasty clergy that people would likely fear, even if you were of evil alignment.Isn't that how it should be? Evil doesn't play well with others, says so right on the tin.
I'm not saying it shouldn't. Heck, it's hard to come up with a concept that would legit lead to an Evil God without it being a sort of "does not play well with others" concept, or at least an "unpleasant to be around" concept.
I mean, theoretically it could be done, but then there'd be legit questions as to why that particular god isn't, say, LN or CN or N or what have you.
{. . .}
~~Lamashtu is the refuge for those who think Echidna Did Nothing Wrong. A goddess of unfettered growth with worshippers who believe the greatest pregnancy is one that splits the host open like a rotten pumpkin... it's a wonder she has any followers. Then again, some people are just nuts.
{. . .}
My first thought was "Echidna sounds familiar . . . wait, spiny anteaters did something wrong?" Had to look up the other Echidna. Lamashtu has her own separate entry in Earth mythology.
It is entirely appropriate and thematic for Asmodeus to seem sympathetic.
Have to agree, Asmodeus is definitely into Pragmatic Evil. If running orphanages and feeding the poor helps him advance his evil agenda (presumably by winning converts), then that's what he'll do it.
Norgorber's clergy seem all over the map on the crazy scale. The cultists that venerate Father Skinsaw are essentially serial killers, and completely crazy. On the other hand, I could see sane politicians, power brokers, and thieves venerating his other aspects.
So many of the evil gods require their worshipers to be insane. It borders on the absurd at times.
Well, at least by modern standards, being evil IS being insane. What we consider "evil" are people who are sociopaths, or psychopaths, or something similar.
I'm pretty sure Asmodeus already has stats, doesn't he? Domains and what not, anyway.
Xanatos needs stats as a deity
Xanatos is more NE than LE, he's far more pragmatic than Asmodeus, and only devoted to the wellbeing of himself and his family, not to any grand scheme of cosmic order.
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Xanatos has precise long term plans, loves 'fair' deals that aren't, and exploited loopholes in prophecy for profit. He's LE.
Xanatos has precise long term plans, loves 'fair' deals that aren't, and exploited loopholes in prophecy for profit. He's LE.
At the same time, he doesn't NEED those loopholes, and seems to use them mostly for a challenge and/or his own amusement.
This is why in my head he's voiced by Jonathon Frakes.
Approaching Asmodeus from this perspective will help his motivations make sense. He knows what he wants. He is even willing to compromise to get it. Everything he does is carefully considered to advance his goals. If that means being nice, fine. If it means setting fire to a few orphanages, also fine.The important thing to remember is that Asmodeus doesn't like to burn bridges. He likes to arrange things so that he's in the best position to negotiate later. That means whenever he wants something he starts with the nice ways first (asking, negotiating, trading), and then works toward the less nice ways (coercion, blackmail, threats, violence) until he gets what he wants.
He always gets what he wants.
Oooh, good choice.
In my head it's the Riker Smile that sells it.
If Asmodeus is doing something nice for you then it's not for your own well-being, it's to further his own schemes. Beware the fangs behind the smile.
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Xanatos has precise long term plans, loves 'fair' deals that aren't, and exploited loopholes in prophecy for profit. He's LE.At the same time, he doesn't NEED those loopholes, and seems to use them mostly for a challenge and/or his own amusement.
I'd argue that he's LE because he has a code of honor of sorts and sticks to it. He becomes a full ally as soon as the Gargoyles save his son without ever changing basic character or alignment in the least simply because he feels he owes them. That's Lawful as all hell.
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Xanatos has precise long term plans, loves 'fair' deals that aren't, and exploited loopholes in prophecy for profit. He's LE.At the same time, he doesn't NEED those loopholes, and seems to use them mostly for a challenge and/or his own amusement.
Asmodeus doesn't need loopholes either. He just uses them for his own amusement and to make it more of a challenge. When it comes right down to it, he always has ways that are less savory but still in keeping with the letter of the contract/law/what-have-you... and if you exploit the letter to satisfy your own gains, that seems very lawful to me. He's not saying "If I can't find a loophole, I'll make one." That seems more Chaotic to me. He's saying "If I can't find a loophole, it's time to move to the next means of acquisition." Which is a lawful way of thinking: If Plan A fails, go to Plan B. If Plan B fails, go to Plan C, and so on, until you have reached the point where you get a plan to succeed.
I'd argue that he's LE because he has a code of honor of sorts and sticks to it. He becomes a full ally as soon as the Gargoyles save his son without ever changing basic character or alignment in the least simply because he feels he owes them. That's Lawful as all hell.Xanatos has precise long term plans, loves 'fair' deals that aren't, and exploited loopholes in prophecy for profit. He's LE.At the same time, he doesn't NEED those loopholes, and seems to use them mostly for a challenge and/or his own amusement.
Forgot that part, I suppose you are right. However, the domains for Asmodeus don't work for Xanatos completely. Plus his favored weapon would be Laser Rifle
In Inner Sea Combat, the Sisters of the Golden Erinyes are a dojo that acquires most of its students from an Asmodean orphanage.
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Forgot that part, I suppose you are right. However, the domains for Asmodeus don't work for Xanatos completely. Plus his favored weapon would be Laser Rifle
Oh, agreed. Though I might argue his Favored Weapon as unarmed combat just as easily. :)
If he were a deity, he'd be a very different one than Asmodeus due to their differing motivations (Xanatos is ambitious to some degree, but not 'conquer the universe' ambitious and has other goals as well) and levels of Evil (Asmodeus is actively Evil, in the 'hurts people maliciously' sense...Xanatos is evil because he's just willing to trample people who happen to get in his way). Really, Abadar is almost a better match for Xanatos's goals and personality than Asmodeus is.
The primary similarity between the Asmodeus and Xanatos is style and methodology. They've both got a serious sense of style, and in about the same way, and are both very good at games of manipulation.
So many of the evil gods require their worshipers to be insane. It borders on the absurd at times.There are plenty of real-world religions and churches with practices that would appear to be insane from the point of view who someone wasn't raised with that specific set of beliefs. The terrible things done in Zon-Kuthon's name make perfect sense to the Nidalese. They're not insane. They were just taught when they were young and impressionable.However, most of the real world religions with practices like human sacrifice tend to have more "reason" for it -- within their own system -- than the D&D/Pathfinder evil gods do. Even for the Aztecs, who probably went as far in that direction as anyone, the human sacrifice was considered to be a necessary part of keeping the universe running.
When there's evil gods existing alongside good gods which are mutually recognized (by each others' religions) to exist, it is harder to imagine why anyone would follow the evil ones. I can see the good gods being too demanding ... but it seems like even most evil people would prefer one of the neutral gods to the evil ones, if only for a better afterlife.
With the exception of Asmodeus and Zon Kuthon, who have entire nations in their thrall, non-monstrous worshippers of other gods might actually be quite rare. It's just that those cultists are exactly the kind of people who show up as frequent threats in APs or are mentioned in campaign setting material, since the whole point of Pathfinder is adventuring and fighting bad guys.
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Forgot that part, I suppose you are right. However, the domains for Asmodeus don't work for Xanatos completely. Plus his favored weapon would be Laser RifleOh, agreed. Though I might argue his Favored Weapon as unarmed combat just as easily. :)
If he were a deity, he'd be a very different one than Asmodeus due to their differing motivations (Xanatos is ambitious to some degree, but not 'conquer the universe' ambitious and has other goals as well) and levels of Evil (Asmodeus is actively Evil, in the 'hurts people maliciously' sense...Xanatos is evil because he's just willing to trample people who happen to get in his way). Really, Abadar is almost a better match for Xanatos's goals and personality than Asmodeus is.
The primary similarity between the Asmodeus and Xanatos is style and methodology. They've both got a serious sense of style, and in about the same way, and are both very good at games of manipulation.
100% agreed, though Xanatos is still evil even if less so than most evil beings in Pathfinder. Bringing this back to the topic, Xanatos is sympathetic, Asmodeus creates the illusion of being sympathetic when it suits him.
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100% agreed, though Xanatos is still evil even if less so than most evil beings in Pathfinder.
I'm not sure that's actually true. He's certainly Evil, and certainly less so than most Evil deities or even most Adventure Path villains, but I see a lot of, say, run of the mill LE Hellknights as not notably more evil than Xanatos.
Bringing this back to the topic, Xanatos is sympathetic, Asmodeus creates the illusion of being sympathetic when it suits him.
Agreed entirely.
100% agreed, though Xanatos is still evil even if less so than most evil beings in Pathfinder.I'm not sure that's actually true. He's certainly Evil, and certainly less so than most Evil deities or even most Adventure Path villains, but I see a lot of, say, run of the mill LE Hellknights as not notably more evil than Xanatos.
Bringing this back to the topic, Xanatos is sympathetic, Asmodeus creates the illusion of being sympathetic when it suits him.Agreed entirely.
I was referring mainly to Evil monstrous races and deities, not humans and other similar races
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*Sympathy for the Asmodeus Plays*
And because of Rasputin Must Die, part of the song even matches up!!! :P
to introduce myself
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Asmodean orphanages
My witch in Way of the Wicked is almost certain to take a role in overseeing the nation's orphanages when it becomes appropriate.
They shall be turning out well-behaved, disciplined young men and women.
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Tabris is the revelator, but Asmodeus is the revelation! He is the tiger-force at the core of all things! When you cry out in your dreams, it is Asmodeus that you see!
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Asmodean orphanagesMy witch in Way of the Wicked is almost certain to take a role in overseeing the nation's orphanages when it becomes appropriate.
They shall be turning out well-behaved, disciplined young men and women.
Will she be their Granny?
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Will she be their Granny?
My Goodness.
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When dealing with potential enemies, he is careful to keep the terms of any agreement clear and obvious lest these parties become too suspicious of treachery, which would damage his perfect bargaining reputation.
This is something people forget, Asmodeus, himself, does not use loopholes. Everything is clear and above board, no tricky. The First doesn't need trickery to beat you. He wins by pure awesome.
In defense of Lamashtu, there's a phrase I haven't used before, people misunderstand her position. It isn't deformed, it's advanced. Making a hundred perfectly symmetrical elves isn't beautiful, it's a waste! You've already got one balanced pink-skinned thingy, why make two? Make one with three eyes, two is better than one, so why not three over two? Or one with scales, scales are much better than skin, better protection, plus they're slinky. People like girls, they're cute and trigger the maternal juices. People like kittens, also cute. Why not combine kittens and girls? Catgirls! The cuteness has been doubled! Combine them all and you've got three-eyed scaly catgirls! Why are you all screaming?