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You should give examples, and evil people can have compassion, not that I think Asmodeus has much of it, if any.
They are evil many times because of how they go about solving a problem. An evil person may have no problem sacrificing the few to save the many. A good person would take a much more difficult route, even if it might mean he could die so that nobody has to be sacrificed.
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Am I the only one who thinks that Asmodeus for an evil god is too sympathetic/"good"? For me, Asmodeus is more lawful neutral than lawful evil.
You do know you are talking about a guy who, by his own admission, murdered his 'brother' for what amounts to a difference of opinion, right?
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Any thought that Asmodeus is anything other than evil kinda goes away once you look at what's going on in Hell.
Based on Book of the Damned Vol. 1, the bottom line is that Asmodeus views free will as a crime that should be punished with eternal torture.
Asmodeus coming across as perfectly reasonable, and then what he actually stands for being utterly horrible, is probably meant to be jarring.
I would say yes to his followers and the people using his evil healing magic, but otherwise id say no besides those 2 instances.
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I think what's really troubling you is the nature of his game. Woo hoo!
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That's just what he wants you to think.
I recently saw a reminder of something I had forgotten -- Asmodeus is actually mentioned by name in the Bible (or in the Catholic version, at least). In the Book of Tobit, he murders seven of a woman's husbands on their wedding nights. I must admit that I see very little resemblance between this monster and the more Satan-like version in Pathfinder.
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Asmodeus is a sadistic tyrant. He's also a misogynist, a fratricide, and the literal God of Slavery (and all the abuses entailed in that), and (as someone already mentioned) views free will as a crime to be punished.
What's not to hate? He's personally both brilliant and charming, but that makes him a competent villain, not somehow less Evil. The only Good thing he ever did was help jail Rovagug, and that was out of pure self interest (Rovagug would've killed him too)...and he still charged for his services on that one.
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Asmodeus is a lying liar who lies. Even when he tells the truth, he's lying. He's the Internet Chuck Norris of lying.
Assume anything that seems too sympathetic is a lie. You'll probably be right. (Unless that's what he wants you to think...)
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*Sympathy for the Asmodeus Plays*
And because of Rasputin Must Die, part of the song even matches up!!! :P
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If you find him sympathetic, that means his plan is working.
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I think Asmodeus tells the truth all the time as well. He's only lied once on record
When he slayed his brother Ihys
I think that alone, considering it is rumored to be the first lie cemented Asmodeus as the lord of this new thing called lies. What makes him evil more than anything is Hell itself, his monument to order at all costs.
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Just remember if you meet him to have some courtesy, have some sympathy, and some taste. (It won't help you -- if you meet him in person, you're f&!&ed, so you might as well go out with some class.)
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It's important to remember that evil people aren't necessarily evil all the time. Evil often gets lumped in or confused with Insanity. Identifying them as separate, but sometimes linked, issues is important to being able to understand and portray evil characters who are not actually insane.
Ozymandias (from Watchmen) is Evil and completely Sane (arguably, the fact that he's completely sane is the whole point of the story).
Spike (from Buffy) is another good example. He's undeniably evil (especially at first), but he is fully capable of rational decisions and conversations and is even able to care about things. He is capable of complex relationships and feelings even if he's un unrepentant murderer.
Approaching Asmodeus from this perspective will help his motivations make sense. He knows what he wants. He is even willing to compromise to get it. Everything he does is carefully considered to advance his goals. If that means being nice, fine. If it means setting fire to a few orphanages, also fine.
The important thing to remember is that Asmodeus doesn't like to burn bridges. He likes to arrange things so that he's in the best position to negotiate later. That means whenever he wants something he starts with the nice ways first (asking, negotiating, trading), and then works toward the less nice ways (coercion, blackmail, threats, violence) until he gets what he wants.
He always gets what he wants.
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Approaching Asmodeus from this perspective will help his motivations make sense. He knows what he wants. He is even willing to compromise to get it. Everything he does is carefully considered to advance his goals. If that means being nice, fine. If it means setting fire to a few orphanages, also fine.The important thing to remember is that Asmodeus doesn't like to burn bridges. He likes to arrange things so that he's in the best position to negotiate later. That means whenever he wants something he starts with the nice ways first (asking, negotiating, trading), and then works toward the less nice ways (coercion, blackmail, threats, violence) until he gets what he wants.
He always gets what he wants.
This is why in my head he's voiced by Jonathon Frakes.
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This is why in my head he's voiced by Jonathon Frakes.
Approaching Asmodeus from this perspective will help his motivations make sense. He knows what he wants. He is even willing to compromise to get it. Everything he does is carefully considered to advance his goals. If that means being nice, fine. If it means setting fire to a few orphanages, also fine.The important thing to remember is that Asmodeus doesn't like to burn bridges. He likes to arrange things so that he's in the best position to negotiate later. That means whenever he wants something he starts with the nice ways first (asking, negotiating, trading), and then works toward the less nice ways (coercion, blackmail, threats, violence) until he gets what he wants.
He always gets what he wants.
Oooh, good choice.
In my head it's the Riker Smile that sells it.
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Someone who is Lawful Neutral might be devoted to some form of perfection.
Asmodeus, who is Lawful Evil, is devoted to power. A perfect order is perfect because it allows him to inflict his will on others. He might love someone devotedly, doting on them, expending great efforts for their happiness, only to cash them in later for someone or something he views as more valuable or more necessary.
The benefits of his philosophy to mortals are no more the direct result of his kindness than a LE cavalier's diligence in caring for his mount means he's a nice guy.
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This is why in my head he's voiced by Jonathon Frakes.
Approaching Asmodeus from this perspective will help his motivations make sense. He knows what he wants. He is even willing to compromise to get it. Everything he does is carefully considered to advance his goals. If that means being nice, fine. If it means setting fire to a few orphanages, also fine.The important thing to remember is that Asmodeus doesn't like to burn bridges. He likes to arrange things so that he's in the best position to negotiate later. That means whenever he wants something he starts with the nice ways first (asking, negotiating, trading), and then works toward the less nice ways (coercion, blackmail, threats, violence) until he gets what he wants.
He always gets what he wants.
Oooh, good choice.
In my head it's the Riker Smile that sells it.
Does he step over the backs of chairs when he sits down, too?
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This is largely why Asmodeus is one of my favorite gods, both in D&D and in Pathfinder. It actually makes sense why people worship him. So many of the evil gods require their worshipers to be insane. It borders on the absurd at times.
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This is largely why Asmodeus is one of my favorite gods, both in D&D and in Pathfinder. It actually makes sense why people worship him. So many of the evil gods require their worshipers to be insane. It borders on the absurd at times.
Eh. Only Rovagug and Zon Kuthon require that much craziness. Lamashtu is generally only worshiped by crazy humans, but is actually rarely worshiped by humans in general with the monsters who worship her having every reason to do so, and Urgathoa and Norgorber are worshiped by plenty of very sane (if unpleasant) people.
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This is largely why Asmodeus is one of my favorite gods, both in D&D and in Pathfinder. It actually makes sense why people worship him. So many of the evil gods require their worshipers to be insane. It borders on the absurd at times.Eh. Only Rovagug and Zon Kuthon require that much craziness. Lamashtu is generally only worshiped by crazy humans, but is actually rarely worshiped by humans in general with the monsters who worship her having every reason to do so, and Urgathoa and Norgorber are worshiped by plenty of very sane (if unpleasant) people.
I'm also not a particular fan of good and evil being drawn along racial lines and certain races being deemed monsters just so that good PC's can have enemies they can slaughter without worrying about the morality of their actions.
But that's a whole other discussion. Suffice to say that in my home game, "monsters" such as orcs, goblinoids, and gnolls are no more or less likely to be shoehorned into the evil alignments than shoanti or kellid humans.
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I'm also not a particular fan of good and evil being drawn along racial lines and certain races being deemed monsters just so that good PC's can have enemies they can slaughter without worrying about the morality of their actions.
I wouldn't characterize that as true in Pathfinder as presented. Several non-Evil members of 'monstrous' races have presented in a variety of books.
But that's a whole other discussion. Suffice to say that in my home game, "monsters" such as orcs, goblinoids, and gnolls are no more or less likely to be shoehorned into the evil alignments than shoanti or kellid humans.
They're not much more likely to be Evil than Humans of Evil-aligned cultures even in Pathfinder. They've made something of a point that Evil is primarily cultural among such creatures, rather than genetic per se.
I'm also not a particular fan of good and evil being drawn along racial lines and certain races being deemed monsters just so that good PC's can have enemies they can slaughter without worrying about the morality of their actions.I wouldn't characterize that as true in Pathfinder as presented. Several non-Evil members of 'monstrous' races have presented in a variety of books.
But that's a whole other discussion. Suffice to say that in my home game, "monsters" such as orcs, goblinoids, and gnolls are no more or less likely to be shoehorned into the evil alignments than shoanti or kellid humans.They're not much more likely to be Evil than Humans of Evil-aligned cultures even in Pathfinder. They've made something of a point that Evil is primarily cultural among such creatures, rather than genetic per se.
Fact that they're always presented as exceptions is what bugs me. And yea, that's the whole of the genre, which is why it bugs me. An evil human isn't presented as an exception to any rule. A good kellid isn't any exception. A good kellid who's a member of an evil tribe is presented as an exception to that tribe. A good orc is presented as an exception to the whole of the species.
Not to mention that whole, sufficiently evil elf might turn into a drow nonsense. I completely excise that crap from my home game.
Anyway, if it's all the same to you I'd rather drop this and have an agree to disagree moment than continue to derail the thread.
On topic: The Kingdom shall be His!
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This is largely why Asmodeus is one of my favorite gods, both in D&D and in Pathfinder. It actually makes sense why people worship him. So many of the evil gods require their worshipers to be insane. It borders on the absurd at times.Eh. Only Rovagug and Zon Kuthon require that much craziness. Lamashtu is generally only worshiped by crazy humans, but is actually rarely worshiped by humans in general with the monsters who worship her having every reason to do so, and Urgathoa and Norgorber are worshiped by plenty of very sane (if unpleasant) people.
Disagree about Lamashtu. As stated in her write u[, all mothers at least pay her lip-service for fear of deformity of their children. While her true clergy are definitely evil, I have a hard time viewing them as insane; afterall, aren't procreating and maternal instincts a natural part of any community, even if the root values are twisted? At the end of it all, the cultists are simply emulating their patron, procreating for the very reason that anyone does. This isn't an insane motivation, even if the means are violent and bloody. Wanting to mutilate youtself just to see if you can feel anything and destroying things because 'everything sucks' (can someone else extrapolate the motivations for a Rovagug priest?) are about as bat-crazy as you can get.
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Disagree about Lamashtu. As stated in her write u[, all mothers at least pay her lip-service for fear of deformity of their children.
Uh...no they don't. Not generally anyway. That's like praying to Asmodeus to free you from slavery, Lamashtu wants your baby to be deformed. Heck, that's one of the main reasons people pray to Pazuzu...to keep Lamashtu away from their babies.
While her true clergy are definitely evil, I have a hard time viewing them as insane; afterall, aren't procreating and maternal instincts a natural part of any community, even if the root values are twisted? At the end of it all, the cultists are simply emulating their patron, procreating for the very reason that anyone does. This isn't an insane motivation, even if the means are violent and bloody. Wanting to mutilate youtself just to see if you can feel anything and destroying things because 'everything sucks' (can someone else extrapolate the motivations for a Rovagug priest?) are about as bat-crazy as you can get.
Lamashtan clergy tend to do things like try and interbreed with animals and actively court deformity in their offspring. That's...pretty crazy unless you've been raised in the faith.
And I agree that Zon-Kuthon and Rovagug worshipers are crazier, and never said differently. :)
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Lamashtu is the only god in Golarion that actually gives me the heebie jeebies.
As far as the true believers:
Pregnant cultists can pray for Lamashtu’s blessing, transforming their unborn into monsters that claw their way free of the womb, leaving behind horrific scarring that the faithful view as signs of devotion and piety.
Some male worshipers of Lamashtu, jealous of the revered position of female clergy members, go to outlandish and repulsive lengths to mimic the ability to give birth, willingly becoming the vessels for rot grubs, xill eggs, vrock swarms, and other terrible parasites.
Dey crazy.
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Asmodeus would be a great patron of unrestrained free market capitalism, in the sense of "Unfortunately, it's not in the contract that we can't put toxic waste near your school. Now, we are concerned about that loose Caydenite retoric your school is teaching. Just sign this contract and we'll remove that toxic dump.
Of course it will be several years before you realise Asmodeus now owns the souls of your children.
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If Gordon Gecko considered any being superior to himself, he would worship Asmodeus.
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So many of the evil gods require their worshipers to be insane. It borders on the absurd at times.
There are plenty of real-world religions and churches with practices that would appear to be insane from the point of view who someone wasn't raised with that specific set of beliefs. The terrible things done in Zon-Kuthon's name make perfect sense to the Nidalese. They're not insane. They were just taught when they were young and impressionable.
He always gets what he wants.
And what he wants is everything.
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This is why in my head he's voiced by Jonathon Frakes.
Approaching Asmodeus from this perspective will help his motivations make sense. He knows what he wants. He is even willing to compromise to get it. Everything he does is carefully considered to advance his goals. If that means being nice, fine. If it means setting fire to a few orphanages, also fine.The important thing to remember is that Asmodeus doesn't like to burn bridges. He likes to arrange things so that he's in the best position to negotiate later. That means whenever he wants something he starts with the nice ways first (asking, negotiating, trading), and then works toward the less nice ways (coercion, blackmail, threats, violence) until he gets what he wants.
He always gets what he wants.
Xanatos needs stats as a deity
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{. . .}
Not to mention that whole, sufficiently evil elf might turn into a drow nonsense. I completely excise that crap from my home game.
{. . .}
Aw, come on, the "good" elves (and Lantern Bearers) have to have something to frighten their kids with. :-)
Asmodeus is far from good, or even neutral, any instance in which he appears good is in fact for his own benefit. He's healing his followers? Only so they will be healthy enough to sacrifice babies and take over cities the next day. The only time he APPEARED to do anything good on a divine level was when he helped seal away Rovagug, and even then, he did it to save his own hide, since Rovagug would have have killed him to, and he STILL demanded payment in return, plus, a good look at hell shuts and who think Asmodeus is any better then evil right up.
Plus, I think it's creepy how him and his devils twist the words of everything around, like if you ask to be stronger, he might turn you into an ogre, even if he tells the truth and abides by the contract he's veeeeeery good at finding loopholes and stabbing you through them.
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It is entirely appropriate and thematic for Asmodeus to seem sympathetic.
Jesus christ almighty Ithaeur. You think Asmodeus (aka the supreme overlord of an entire multi-layered plane of suffering and torment) is too sympathetic? You're starting to seriously creep me out.
{. . .} (can someone else extrapolate the motivations for a Rovagug priest?) {. . .}
Extrapolating the motives of a Rovagug priest is a bit tricky, but I can give you a good guess at the motives of Rovagug, which by strong circumstantial evidence actually seem rather straightforward. Remember that Demons formed from sinful mortal souls under Daemonic experimentation with the Abyss, and then they swarmed all through the Abyss and drove the Qlippoth to extinction in the regions of the Abyss that receive mortal souls, confining the remaining Qlippoth to REALLY DEEP parts of the Abyss. Also, remember that Rovagug may be basically the closest equivalent to God of the Qlippoth, and even if this is not so, the Qlippoth may be Abyss-adapted relatives of the Outer Gods that Rovagug is also suspected of being a member of, thus providing a close relation anyway. When the sin-fueled horde of Daemonic invasion began, from the Qlippoth point of view, the only way to get rid of the sin was to get rid of the sinners. Seeing how mortals are inherently sinful, it was very easy for them -- and Rovagug in particular -- to come to the conclusion that this meant an absolute necessity for the extermination of all mortal life, including the destruction of all that mortals use to make their lives more bearable, from the greatest of infrastructure down to the most insignificant artwork.
If it is true that Sarenrae was unwilling rather than unable to destroy Rovagug (or unwilling to provide Asmodeus with the type of assistance required to destroy rather than imprison), it may be that understanding of the Rovagug's rampage as an attempt at defense of the Qlippoth homeworld from an invasive species was what made her unwilling.
Getting back to the motives of a priest of Rovagug, we can see that some Qlippoth are willing to varying degrees to use mortals as tools, although only a small subset of them go to the (for them) treasonous step of converting themselves into Demon Lords. For a Qlippoth wanting to use mortals as tools while minimizing the extent to which it has to get its hands (claws? tentacles?) dirty, Wrath seems to be the human sin that comes closest to something that the Qlippoths can readily understand and thus use, so they (including Rovagug) push this sin to the point of insanity in their followers, which consist of whatever mortals they can find that are most prone to this sin in the first place.
Pretty sure some if them are handless.
of*
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{. . .} (can someone else extrapolate the motivations for a Rovagug priest?) {. . .}Solid Hypothesizing
Just so you know, James Jacobs has confirmed that Rovagug is, in fact, an ascended qlippoth, like Sarenrae is an ascended angel... and like Asmodeus is an ascended devil.
(I'm... not going to be searching the Ask James Jacobs thread anytime soon for this, though; no time.) :)
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{. . .} (can someone else extrapolate the motivations for a Rovagug priest?) {. . .}Solid HypothesizingJust so you know, James Jacobs has confirmed that Rovagug is, in fact, an ascended qlippoth, like Sarenrae is an ascended angel... and like Asmodeus is an ascended devil.
(I'm... not going to be searching the Ask James Jacobs thread anytime soon for this, though; no time.) :)
I can support this, having also read James Jacobs confirming these things. I, too, don't feel like doing an exhaustive search, though. :)