Goblin Squad Member
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I am starting this thread so the numerous threads discussing griefing can consolidate the discussion regarding the question "is using the bounty system to infinitely put a bounty on your killers' head(s) griefing?"
There pertinent info that Ryan has provided via the GW Blog is as follows:
Many Shades of Grief
One thing that we're deeply committed to at Goblinworks is building a game that has a low tolerance for "griefing." Loosely defined, griefing means taking actions within the game that are designed to harass another player to elicit bad feelings without any other reasonable purpose. Griefing encompasses a wide spectrum of behavior, and there will be players who feel that they have been subjected to griefing while their opponents feel they're engaged in legitimate gameplay. An example is a group who attacks and kills trespassers in a certain area to deny access to that territory to other players. The people trying to get in might feel it's unfair that they keep getting attacked and killed, whereas the attackers feel completely justified in defending their territory. Goblinworks will be creating an organic, evolving policy on griefing to identify practices that we consider abusive. We will take severe action out-of-game against regularly abusive players, while less flagrant issues will be dealt with in-game by way of an innovative bounty system designed to deter unwanted aggression.
There have been attempts at bounty systems in many MMOs in the past, and they tend to have the same problem: If I put a reward on your character's head, you can arrange for one of your friends to kill your character, and you then split the reward with your friend. You're not deterred from doing whatever it was that caused me to place the bounty, and I've ended up giving you and your friend even more of my scarce resources.
Pathfinder Online's bounty system is a lot more selective. When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully—you will have the option to place a bounty on your killer's head. The twist is that you can specify who can redeem the bounty: a specific character, a chartered adventuring group, or members of a specific player organization. Everyone who is eligible to earn the bounty receives a notification, and if they encounter a character with a price on his head, they'll be reminded of the bounty outstanding on that character. You'll be able to put a bounty on any character who inflicted damage on you within a limited time preceding your character's death, and on their companions and those who rendered them assistance, so you can ensure that a gang of criminals suffers as much as a lone assassin.
We fully expect that there will be characters who become specialized bounty hunters, tracking down and redeeming bounties and earning acclaim (which will translate into more commissioned bounties). These characters would never want their reputations besmirched by the idea that they'd be splitting the bounties with the targets, so the social reputation of these characters will dictate how successful they are at this role. Furthermore, we expect that some players will form bounty-hunting organizations, and those organizations will also need to maintain scrupulous reputations as agents of vengeance rather than agents of collaboration. Knowing that these experienced and deadly foes may be lawfully unleashed to hunt down and kill murderers will be a powerful deterrent to griefing.
Oh, and one more twist: Each time the bounty is paid, the victim has the option to issue it again. And again. A wealthy victim could maintain the price on the head of a murderer for a very long time—forever, if they like. Murder the wrong person, and you might find your character reduced to a life constantly on the run, or you may need to try to heal the breach via penance and apology (and likely restitution).
Bounties can only be issued when a character unlawfully kills another. Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system. The intent is to deter characters from arbitrarily attacking and killing others simply for fun. Of course, those who simply wish to avoid any PvP at all will choose to remain within the very high security zones close to NPC settlements where PvP is effectively impossible. Such players will have fewer opportunities to find adventure or to earn treasure than their braver and less risk-averse peers, but they'll be safe from griefers.
The key issue is that is one plays a bandit or an assassin (or some other under-handed rogue-type character) can infinite bounties could be used to grief the killer when he/she is legitimately RP a nefarious character.
My take on it is that I don't foresee an economy existing in PFO that would support this without the person working closely with the bounty hunters, as gold will likely be scarce for a long while. So the only way for someone to do this is by deception.
The deception can occur in at least two ways:
1) Player A gets killed by Player B (who happens to be a bandit), and then Player A starts a bounty against Player B, granting sole rights to group X, who happen to be his friends. Fine so far, but then Player A does it again, and again Group X gets sole bounty rights. This continues to go on for as long as both Player A and Group X wish it to, as they are likely using small bounties and then using the coin looted from Player B and from the selling of Player B's items to fund their farce.
2) Player A is wealthy and not low level, but decides he/she doesn't like Player B for being a bandit, so Player A heads out in newbie outfit and barely fights back allowing Player B to think he/she is a low level character. When Player A is dead, he/she starts placing bounties ad nauseum on Player B because he/she can afford it and doesn't like Player B for some reason (likely an OOC one).
In both these cases, I would say yes, the use of infinite bounties are griefing, even if Player A is using the system as intended by the letter of the law, but not the spirit of it. Then Player B has a legitimate complaint and either could go to a GM or to some in game group, as has been proposed in LINK
However, that being stated, if Player A is just a rich player and he/she gets killed by Player B, even if Player B is an RP Bandit or assassin, and so decides to teach Player B not to mess with him/her, and sets bounty after bounty for a few weeks. In that case, then no, it isn't griefing - it just sucks to be the player that pissed off a player with a rich PC. Bandits, thieves, assassins, and the like have to expect that sometimes they will make enemies of the wrong people.
Well, that is how I see it. What do others think? Am I reading the blog info correctly, and have I interpreted the intent behind them correctly? Now we can discuss this apart from other types of griefing and potential alliances against organized griefing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What a delightful question! Tony discusses that very issue in depth in his blog. He has also established a website with forums to deal with it.
Please note that the website linked in his blog is to the old, now dead forums. The link I just provided now is the correct site.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It might depend, on the way people do interact with characters with the criminal tag. If they will kill that person just for being a criminal, the bounty will be nothing more than a bonus.
With a rather big game world, you have to consider how high the bounty actually has to be to make the bounty hunter actively search for the specific criminal. Since said person is likely to be in the company of other cutthroats, it could act as a deterrent.
Of course that argument doesn't work it the friendly neighborhood kingdom goes forth to rout the bandit camp every other day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those are good questions. Have not the time right now to fully consider them atm, and I'm sure there will be issues here and there, but as a player with an interest in playing a bandit, I'm expecting to have a posse and connections, such that bounty-hunters will have a force to reckon with = some good hunting. I also think that a Bandit that dispatches another player without a "stand-and-deliver" offer probably should expect more "heat" in their line of business. And the bandits might actually take out the bounty-hunters/up the cost of taking on the bounty to be successful?
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, it's not griefing. I mean, sure the individual that gets bounties put on them over and over by vindictive guy A has to watch his back, but in a full PVP game you kind of have to do that, anyway.
It's not like they're following him around 24/7 in game and killing him every time he respawns.
I imagine that'd get boring for the bounty hunters where that the case, and they'd eventually go away of their own accord, anyway.
Anywho, no, I don't consider it griefing. Underhanded? Sure. Annoying? Absolutely.
However, as I stated earlier in my post, you're going to have to watch your back no matter what, so I could care less if people infinitely put bounties on me.
If they want to waste their money doing so, more power to them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bounties are more of a badge of honor to a lot of people and serve as no real deterrent. You'll actually be giving them more grief by refusing to put a bounty on them.
Bounties are for roleplay. The alignment hit is the deterrent. In my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Infinite bounties? Time to fill the coffers at another's expense. As a bounty hunter, that is my function.
If Guy A has wronged Guy B enough to have him repeatedly reissue a bounty, if approved by Pax Aeternum leadership, I will execute that bounty to the fullest extent of my ability. Again, that is my function.
Now what if Guy A is an ally of Pax? In more than most cases, I believe our leadership would pass with mitigating factors being current kingdom relations status, personal behavior, etc.
Factor in Politics. If a bounty hunting group is effective enough, might a kingdom write a contract and present the option of payment for the non-execution of bounties? Usually, no. What if the enemy is at your gates and multiple members of your kingdom have bounties on them? Having a third party interfere would be detrimental to the outcome, would it not?
Again, I do not speak for our leadership nor am I an Ambassador so these situations are hypothetical and should in no way be taken in any other manner.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know this topic is about infinite bounties, but my concern is the level of punishment. I think the fact that a victim can potentially put an infinite bounty out and a death curse is overkill. I do admit that it seems unlikely that someone would do that, but it could happen. And the devs havenet specified whether you have to name a person or if you CAN name 1 person to collect. What if someone puts an infinite bounty that is open to anyone? Then at that point it becomes game breaking. Thats just as silly and over the top as me asking for a special I win button.
Some kind of decrease in this extreme anti-griefing is waranted. Like getting rid of the death curse, and keeping bounties, but only allowing a handful in a row for the same act. Or allowing the death curse and 1 bounty per act per person. I mean as a PvPer Ill already have to put up with NPCs in secure areas and any player policing forces, not to mention random do-gooders. There is a lot of risk involved in being a criminal, but it cant be so great that it destroys meaningful PvP, and content creation.
Here is something else to consider: peaople are more likely to play like they have nothing to lose, if the odds are always stacked against them anyways. They would just run around griefing everyone with throw-awayable-characters. To say nothing of getting stuck in a loop of repeated agression like the Hatfields and McCoys, that keeps escalating til both parties are banned/reprimanded.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What a delightful question! Tony discusses that very issue in depth in his blog.
And by "discuss", you mean "assume the answer to Gloreindl's question is 'Yes' and here's what Tony proposes to do about it." Let's stick to the actual discussion.
Here's what I have to say about infinite bounties, as I posted in the other thread from which Gloreindl spawned this one:
A travelling merchant is essentially placing a bounty on his own head, out of his own pocket, every time he steps out on the road with a pack or wagon full of goods - for anyone with the strength to claim it, until such a point as bandit attacks shift his risk vs reward to unacceptable levels. Infinite bounties to me just seem like a way for the merchant to even the score, for them to say "hey that guy over there is also valuable to kill", and put the merchant and the bandit on even footing.
Being a merchant subject to bandit attacks already has all the same repercussions for bandits suffering from infinite bounties, including being harassed to the point of his risk vs reward being unacceptable and having to stop his preferred gameplay, except to add insult to injury he's paying for the bounty on his own head.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually is the following situation griefing?
Bandit A kills merchant B, because ... well thats his job.
Merchant B takes out a bounty and renews it every time.
After getting killed several times by bounty hunters, Bandit A takes the time to research and finds out, that the merchant he robbed once is causing him all this trouble.
So he sends the merchant a letter, and warns him to stop the bounties or face the consequences.
Merchant B, doesn't want to stop renewing the bounty.
After that, Bandit A concentrates his efforts, to rob this specific merchant and kill him at every opportunity.
Is that griefing or good RP? After all the Bandit has only a few options. Of course, if he hires other bandits/assassins to kill/hurt that specific merchant... is that griefing?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know this topic is about infinite bounties, but my concern is the level of punishment. I think the fact that a victim can potentially put an infinite bounty out and a death curse is overkill. I do admit that it seems unlikely that someone would do that, but it could happen. And the devs havenet specified whether you have to name a person or if you CAN name 1 person to collect. What if someone puts an infinite bounty that is open to anyone? Then at that point it becomes game breaking. Thats just as silly and over the top as me asking for a special I win button.
It's not really infinite bounties. The way I'm seeing it, sure you could continuously put a bounty on a guy's head, but you are going to have to keep paying. If that's the way you want to spend your money, it's your choice.
Something else I don't really see being an issue is if someone constantly puts a bounty on someone for really low sums of gold. Eventually, it becomes more effort than it's worth as the criminal will most likely spawn far away (in a Chaotic Evil settlement probably), and then why go to all that effort for a small sum? It would probably be better to go after the guy that has a bigger bounty on him, and very well be 50 yards away vs low bounty guy 5 hexes away.
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For the Death Curse, I think it will only be initially, not every time you issue a bounty.
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As for an infinite bounty open to anyone, how is it game breaking?
And as for running around with the thought of nothing to lose (IE No equipment held), you are just wasting your time then considering it will most likely be easier for even crafters to kill you, and then you just aren't getting anywhere. Also on throwaway characters, I don't think such a thing will exist considering you will have to spend some time training to even have a decent fighting chance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Tuoweit, very well said.
@ Sebastian Hirsch; no, i wouldn't consider any of that griefing. I would call that playing the game.
What it really boils down to is this. If someone wants to kill someone over and over and over, they're going to do that regardless of the bounty system.
Griefers will grief with or without the bounty system.
This whole debate about infinite bounties - is it griefing is getting to the point where it's becoming silly.
The whole "what is griefing" "debate" is getting kind of silly, too.
This isn't the first sandbox MMO in the world, nor will it be the last. You would think the people designing it realize that, too, and like any good development studio have looked at what has and has not worked in other sandboxes.
I'm not saying have blind faith, here, but have some faith that the people making the game actually know what they're doing.
The bounty system as described in the blog excites me, and I'm a *good* player. I don't tolerate griefing, hacking, exploiting, etc in my organization. In fact, we go to great lengths to prevent it to include sending information to studios about any members we ban from our organization who have been caught breaking EULA's for personal gain in games with a moderate success rate of getting their accounts banned.
What Ryan described is something we have been clamoring for since the days of SWG.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually is the following situation griefing?Bandit A kills merchant B, because ... well thats his job.
Merchant B takes out a bounty and renews it every time.
After getting killed several times by bounty hunters, Bandit A takes the time to research and finds out, that the merchant he robbed once is causing him all this trouble.
So he sends the merchant a letter, and warns him to stop the bounties or face the consequences.
Merchant B, doesn't want to stop renewing the bounty.
After that, Bandit A concentrates his efforts, to rob this specific merchant and kill him at every opportunity.Is that griefing or good RP? After all the Bandit has only a few options. Of course, if he hires other bandits/assassins to kill/hurt that specific merchant... is that griefing?
That's not really a job. That's a life decision. He could have been a mercenary, bounty hunter, or anything else. He picked that, and should have known the consequences.
Also, I don't think stopping violence with a threat of violence will fix anything. If anything, you should try and make it up to them (be their errand boy, gather materials, etc.) If they don't stop, then let your bandit buddies know, and not to mention tell others about this vengeful merchant. Frankly, if I was a merchant, and some guy I got revenge on came back to me trying to fix it, I'd probably give him a chance.
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Like my last post:
Even if he doesn't, Merchant B is going to have to keep paying money to renew the bounty. If you are rich, I guess that's fine and dandy, but when it eventually becomes you only get 100 gold for killing him (and taking awhile) vs 1500 for another jerk that is still around town.
And also, I don't think trying to kill the same guy twice will help a bandit. The guy will probably be more wary of you, and if he's wisened up, he probably has company... For you!
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Goblin Squad Member
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To go slightly off-topic, I would actually like to see a way for someone with a bounty on them to atone (by some undefined action, probably including paying the value or a multiple of the value of the bounties on them to the bounty office) and essentially be "on probation". Any bounties on them would be suspended while they are on probation. Taking any action which could trigger a new bounty (whether the victim takes the opportunity to place a bounty or not) while on probation would immediately reinstate all previous bounties. Recidivists could abuse probation to get a temporary respite from bounties, but they'd have to pay a significant amount of money for the privilege, and the bounties don't actually get bought off.
I'm not sure how long probation would last, probably it would have to last forever. But at least it would be one way for someone who has truly changed their ways to get out of infinite bounties.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh jeez, I forgot about this part (thanks Tuoweit for making me remember)
Oh, and one more twist: Each time the bounty is paid, the victim has the option to issue it again. And again. A wealthy victim could maintain the price on the head of a murderer for a very long time—forever, if they like. Murder the wrong person, and you might find your character reduced to a life constantly on the run, or you may need to try to heal the breach via penance and apology (and likely restitution).
And shortly below
We're going to be especially mindful of the balance between characters who are harvesters and transporters and those characters who may be created as disposable "gankers"—characters designed to hit soft targets repeatedly for grief even though the result may be that the character is banned. The security zone system itself will help with this a bit, but we will also have ways to make potential gankers spend such significant amounts of time and attention that it will dissuade all but the most hardcore griefers from bothering. And those offenders will be dealt with out-of-game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am a 50/50 sort of player really. Sometimes Ill be engauged in exploration/dungeons/caravan security for some merchant. But other times I might be getting paid to raid a caravan, or I might Gank some lone merchant out on the road. The point is I dont really have a motivation to go out of my way to make someone miserable. If I rob you or kill you, its part of the game. Its unlikely that I will rob/kill the same person repeatedly, as I'd start feeling sorry for the guy. Im playing a roll, making some gold. Im not out to ruin him. Ill probably be more directed by contract than random ganking, but any ganking I do will be on a hit and move on basis. Not making someone ragequit.
However, lets assume we go the direction the devs have posted on the blogs. Thats fine. If anyone tries to put an infinite bounty on me, then I will treat it as war and always kill them and thier associates on site, and take every oppertunity to rob and plunder their holdings. Because if an infinite bounty is not griefing, then neither is my excessive retaliation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually is the following situation griefing?Bandit A kills merchant B, because ... well thats his job.
Merchant B takes out a bounty and renews it every time.
After getting killed several times by bounty hunters, Bandit A takes the time to research and finds out, that the merchant he robbed once is causing him all this trouble.
So he sends the merchant a letter, and warns him to stop the bounties or face the consequences.
Merchant B, doesn't want to stop renewing the bounty.
After that, Bandit A concentrates his efforts, to rob this specific merchant and kill him at every opportunity.Is that griefing or good RP? After all the Bandit has only a few options. Of course, if he hires other bandits/assassins to kill/hurt that specific merchant... is that griefing?
That's not really a job. That's a life decision. He could have been a mercenary, bounty hunter, or anything else. He picked that, and should have known the consequences.
Also, I don't think stopping violence with a threat of violence will fix anything. If anything, you should try and make it up to them (be their errand boy, gather materials, etc.) If they don't stop, then let your bandit buddies know, and not to mention tell others about this vengeful merchant. Frankly, if I was a merchant, and some guy I got revenge on came back to me trying to fix it, I'd probably give him a chance.
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Like my last post:
Even if he doesn't, Merchant B is going to have to keep paying money to renew the bounty. If you are rich, I guess that's fine and dandy, but when it eventually becomes you only get 100 gold for killing him (and taking awhile) vs 1500 for another jerk that is still around town.And also, I don't think trying to kill the same guy twice will help a bandit. The guy will probably be more wary of you, and if he's wisened up, he probably has company... For you!
I am getting the feeling that, all this theorycrafting won't help until the game launches.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about setting time limits for how long a bounty stays in effect?
Example:
Alku goes and kills a wandering traveler. This pisses wandering traveler off and puts a 1000 gold bounty on Alku's head (I'm worth at least twice that, but bear with me). The wandering travel, at the time of issuing the bounty, must also pay an additional fee (on top of the reward money), to allow the bounty to last for X number of days. Once that X number of days is up the reward money is returned to the wandering traveler and he is given the option of renewing it for a slightly larger amount of money.
This would allow the bounty system to remain infinite, but it would be come an ever increasing burden on the issuer if the bandit were able to cleverly avoid being killed.
One retort I see coming from this is, "well, the bandit will simply log off until the bounty goes away." To which I say, problem solved.
Another possible idea, and this one is really just me spit balling, is to only allow bounties to be posted from specific areas in the game (i.e. NPC ran bounty office). This would add a slight, although real, annoyance to the issuer of the bounty because he now may have to travel out of his way to re-up his bounty. Maybe these NPC Bounty Offices could be purchased and setup in Player Settlements.
3rd even crazier idea. Make bounties tied to a certain area. So if I issue the bounty in Player Kingdom of Awesome, it will only be applicable to that kingdom's hexes, and maybe the surrounding ones. This means if the offending bandit wants to avoid getting killed for his bounty, he should avoid those areas.
Any of this sound like a reasonable idea?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you cant do the time dont do the crime. Honestly its that simple. In the above case the bandit could have simply not killed the merchant, and never have gotten the bounty.
Now before everyone screams about bandits this and bandits that and how its a legit play choice, i agree it is. HOWEVER unprovoked killing of people for no good reason (bandits dont kill people for a good reason, they kill people to steal from them or for kicks) has to have consequences. The consequence of killing a rich merchant is you end up with a bounty on your head. If you cannot take the heat dont do the job.
Ohhh boo hoo i killed someone to steal all their hard earned things and now they want to revenge me. Before anyone gets too much into it, you know what happened to people who were bandits? they got killed, hunted down to the last man.
Now i do agree that a bounty system does need limits, as i think that infinite bounties will drive players away from the game, even if i think that infinite bounties are fine.
So the system should work like this.
1) first 1,2,3 bounties basically do not cost the victim anything.
2) the 4,5,6 bounties cost much more, they are expensive but a successful person should be able to afford this without much worry
3) after the 6th bounty the costs of bounties start raising very very very quickly, double the cost of previous or something like that.
4) If the bandit kills the victim again, the bounty costs reset
5) bounty costs are tracked separately for each victim. Kill 10 people they can each put as many bounties as they want up. Consequences of killing people
6) A victim has 3 hours to place a bounty on the bandit. After that they cannot place a bounty.
7) A bounty can be placed on a bandit even if the bandit is not online
8) The victim can choose who can take the bounty. this can be based on alignment, settlement, or player kingdom. The other side is that the victim can also exclude people from taking the bounty.
9) once the victim decides to place the bounty, they must decide how many bounties they want to place. this number cannot be changed. Once that is done the gold is immediately withdrawn from the victims person/bank and put into escrow.
10) A victim may cancel the bounties at any time, however the money in escrow does not get delivered for 72 hours, and a 10% fee is taken.
11) Anyone in group with the bandit or who attacked the victim or who healed any of the bandits can also get bounties placed on them at the same time by the victim. Those bounties are at a discounted price, with the first several against everyone being free.
12) Killing people in NOSEC or lawless areas does not allow the victim to place a bounty
13) Killing someone you are at war with does not allow the victim to place a bounty
14) Killing someone who has a bounty does not allow the person who had a bounty to place a bounty on the people who killed them
15) If someone is killing a bounty, anyone who attacks that person automatically gains a criminal flag and bounty against them. (only once combat is started, if the person doing the bounty gets killed before then that does not apply)
16)All equipment used by the bandit is marked. the equipment cannot be destroyed, cannot be traded to another player, cannot be sold, and cannot be used until all bounties are over. The items can be put into a bank. A person killing someone with a bounty AUTOMATICALLY receives 2 items that were marked, including threaded items, as well as a random selection of whatever the bandit is wearing at the time.
17) Anyone caught having their friends/guild/or whoever just kill them to get rid of the bounty (including logging on alts) gets the past 6 months of skills removed on all characters on all accounts associated with the people, all equipment on all characters in all accounts associated with the people gets destroyed. If it happens again the accounts get perma banned
18) Any mechanical system is not perfect. Anyone caught using exploits or using systems in unintended manners to get rid of bounties or "creatively" getting around it, gets 6 months training wiped on all characters on all accounts associated with the people. Second time it happens perma ban.
If you dont want to do the time dont do the crime. if you are going to do the crime you better be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.
settlements/kingdoms can decide to allow their lawful areas to be lawless. So a CE settlement can make it so that in their hex its lawless and thus no bounties can be given there. Changing from lawful to lawless or lawless to lawful would take several days.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think Infinite Bounties will (or should) count as Griefing.
From Goblinworks Blog: Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves:
Bounties: If someone kills you you can choose to put a bounty on that killer. Bounty systems have a lot of known flaws and we think we've worked around most of them with this tweak: You choose who can accept the bounty. That allows players to develop "bounty hunter" characters who are known to a) succeed, and b) not split the bounty with the target. We also envision a system where you can continue to re-instate the bounty as long as you wish, so if you are wealthy, and you get killed, you can make life miserable for your killer for a very, very long time.
This is the system as designed, not some unforeseen consequence of some other system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could accept all but #16.
I say leave it as is in the dev blog. Death curse is for a limited amount of time (devs didnt say exactly how long), and durring that time you have reduced threads of fate. Period. What criminals do with thier limited threads is their business.
The only thing I might add is death curses should not be stackable to increase its time. However, I would be ok with potency (loss of even more threads)increasing due to multiple victims.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've just finished an extremely high level dungeon and walk out wounded with out time to bind my brand new shiny extremely rare drop artifact and someone ganks me as I'm stuck in a loading screen. I've now lost an item I've spent months trying to get.
Do I
A) let it go?
B) Put a massive bounty on the bastage responsible and keep renewing it until the person understands the pain and suffering he has caused me and begs for mercy?
I'm going to go with B.
After awhile he asks me for mercy to release him from this.
Do I
A) go yeah he's had enough
B) Demand that he get me the item he cost me.
C) Go hell no spend the rest of your life in eternal torment from my bounty.
B and C are tough choices...
I'm an extremely vindictive person so I usually will go with C.
That does not mean someone after a few months or years can't convince me to drop the matter its just not going to be easy..
Was I wrong?
Not in my opinion.
There are times when putting a bounty on someone for the rest of thier existence is perfectly justifiable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Decorus non issue. Most games (every one I've played since 2007) have a timed buff they put on you when you load into a new zone or the world. So, they shouldn't even be able to hit you while you're stuck at a loading screen.It still happens even in the games your thinking of.
Interesting, since I didn't state what games I was thinking of, I'm curious as to what games you're thinking of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@greedalox
the purpose of 16 is to prevent bandits from running around with very very good gear, killing someone, then changing out their gear until someone gets the bounty, this avoiding the possibility of them losing their good items.
Here's the thing, Any merchant, adventurer, etc. will have the option to thread whatever gear they want. If someone is running around wearing top gear that is not threaded (especially alone or with minimum security, in an unlawful area), then they sort of earned that loss.
I honestly think its perfectly fair to just plain not even have the death curse thing, so I thought I was being generous with my suggestion to #16.
Like Bluddwolf said: dont take carry what you cant afford to loose.
This unwritten rule along with the ability the thread some things should be protection enough. If I randomly ganked you, I doubt Id get that much.
Not too mention the death curse I think is annoying and too one sided. If it stays in place as is or doesnt receive some tweaking or is made worse, then you will never catch me with "awesome" gear. Ill always just hoard my gold away and where mid-gear.
So anytime I go out for PvP or am under a bounty Id just do that. Other times I might have good gear on, but at that point killing me would make you a murderer. Which means all my threaded gear is safe, yours is not, and now you are elligable for an infinity bounty.
Im also in favor of both good and evil players being able to put bounties out. Just because you are good and I am evil doesnt mean you get a free pass to murder me in a settlement with laws.
I think with a proper bounty system, the safe zones, NPC gaurds, random do-gooders, and policing groups, and security contracts, PCs have all the protection needed. All Im looking for is a bit of ballance. A bounty system seems fair, an unchecked infinity bounty system does not. And the death curse is not either. Everyone should be able to get equal benefits. All players should be able to have access to their threads.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the game designer's intended some one to have an eternal bounty on them from some one.
Really?
We also envision a system where you can continue to re-instate the bounty as long as you wish, so if you are wealthy, and you get killed, you can make life miserable for your killer for a very, very long time.
Really?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@leperkhaun I think that is way overboard for a random killing.
I can see the bounty system more or less as stated but with a limit on how many times it can be reinstated. If a bandit raided a merchant and killed him I can see him putting a bounty on his head and would let him do that one or two times. After three in a row specifically for one incident would be griefing. It is ruining someone else enjoyment of the game to have to find some way to try and reconcile with a random person who could be some loon that can never let go of a grudge. Say for instance you are walking through the woods and you come upon a rare item/spawn/whathaveyou. Some other person runs out of nowhere and ninjas it. You decide to kill him. Then you say 'you know what? This guy hasn't suffered nearly enough' so you go out and kill him a second time. Then a third. You keep doing this for a week. Are you griefing? How is an infinite bounty system any different?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@darnell
i dont think so. A bounty cannot EVER be griefing. The reason is that in order to get a bounty on someone you would need to kill someone you are not at war with in a lawful area, which means you decided to do it. You decided that the RISK (getting bounties on you) was worth the reward (whatever loot the merchant had or the joy of killing someone).
Someone getting a rare spawn before you is not the same. Since the fact that he got to it first means it was his.
He did nothing to you. A bounty can only be placed against someone if you kill them outside of a war in a lawful area.
If you cannot do the time dont do the crime. Killing PCs in certain areas will have consequences YOU have to decide if its worth it.
Now having said all of this. I am all for having some Nosec areas that are basically free for all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see the bounty system more or less as stated but with a limit on how many times it can be reinstated. If a bandit raided a merchant and killed him I can see him putting a bounty on his head and would let him do that one or two times. After three in a row specifically for one incident would be griefing. It is ruining someone else enjoyment of the game to have to find some way to try and reconcile with a random person who could be some loon that can never let go of a grudge.
If the bandit's already killed the merchant once, why does the merchant have to wait to become a victim for a second time before posting the second bounty? He already KNOWS the bandit is perfectly willing to attack him, given the chance and opportunity. Furthermore, immediately after losing a valuable cargo is probably the worst point in time financially for the merchant to shell out for a bounty, so a single bounty really favours the bandit in terms of how much of his own financial muscle the merchant can apply in return.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see the bounty system more or less as stated but with a limit on how many times it can be reinstated. If a bandit raided a merchant and killed him I can see him putting a bounty on his head and would let him do that one or two times. After three in a row specifically for one incident would be griefing. It is ruining someone else enjoyment of the game to have to find some way to try and reconcile with a random person who could be some loon that can never let go of a grudge.If the bandit's already killed the merchant once, why does the merchant have to wait to become a victim for a second time before posting the second bounty? He already KNOWS the bandit is perfectly willing to attack him, given the chance and opportunity. Furthermore, immediately after losing a valuable cargo is probably the worst point in time financially for the merchant to shell out for a bounty, so a single bounty really favours the bandit in terms of how much of his own financial muscle the merchant can apply in return.
In a sense the real world works that way. Providing your not in a war zone, money wins over dumb muscle 9 times out of 10. Especially if the person with money is also a politico or a mob boss.
Though if you wanted to get truly real life, the disgruntled merchant would also run around and bribe all the NPC shops/officials/etc to blackban the guy as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see the bounty system more or less as stated but with a limit on how many times it can be reinstated. If a bandit raided a merchant and killed him I can see him putting a bounty on his head and would let him do that one or two times. After three in a row specifically for one incident would be griefing. It is ruining someone else enjoyment of the game to have to find some way to try and reconcile with a random person who could be some loon that can never let go of a grudge.If the bandit's already killed the merchant once, why does the merchant have to wait to become a victim for a second time before posting the second bounty? He already KNOWS the bandit is perfectly willing to attack him, given the chance and opportunity. Furthermore, immediately after losing a valuable cargo is probably the worst point in time financially for the merchant to shell out for a bounty, so a single bounty really favours the bandit in terms of how much of his own financial muscle the merchant can apply in return.
Yes, but if the bandit was turned into a griefer and the merchant was turned into some new guy, then you would say killing the new guy once? Okay, perhaps the new guy stumbled into the wrong area. Twice, the guy is a slow learner. Three times? The guy is hunting that poor kid down and must be dealt with. The same logic should apply to how many times a bounty can be issued.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or the merchant could use the contract system and keep people employed to gaurd his caravan?
The system works if there is a ballance: Caravan Gaurds <---> Caravan Bandits. Bounty <--> Assassin contracts..... kinda. Infinity Bounty <---> nothing. Death Curse <---> nothing.
I understand people are worried about griefing, but frankly Id rather there be a system in place that limits how often player A can kill player B, then all this craziness. Because honestly I would not be doing it too often, outside of a contract.
And I cant understand how anyone can say with a straight face that infinity bounty would not be griefing. Look at your selves in the mirror and say it. If this is what you truly believe (and I have my doubts, PvE conspiracies and such), then we are at an empasse. Because there is nothing you ca say to convince me otherwise. A bounty system, even with a few renewals is fine, the death curse seems a bit one-sided, but could be ok if implemented well. However, if an infinity bounty system is not griefing then Im Peter Pan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@darnell
steal mechanics are easy to take care of. Just have marking.
You cannot equal bounty with griefing. In order to have a bounty placed against you you must have done something against another player. A merchant just cant place bounties on other players just because.
If you cannot accept the consequences of your actions dont do them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@darnell
steal mechanics are easy to take care of. Just have marking.
You cannot equal bounty with griefing. In order to have a bounty placed against you you must have done something against another player. A merchant just cant place bounties on other players just because.
If you cannot accept the consequences of your actions dont do them.
I will fully accept getting a bounty on my head for killing someone, but I refuse to accept an infinite one.
Also, by the same logic the guy who stole my kill should be able to accept the consequences for his actions with me killing him every time I meet him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Question?
Will looting be possible if you just beat someone unconscious ?
Because if the bandit has an option to just beat them up and steal (which presumably will not attract an infinite bounty) that may work to reduce the occurrence of PKs to mainly genuine consensual PvP dueling and griefing.
Second Question?
Will there be a mechanism to track consensual combats and lock out the bounty system? It would not be good to allow disgruntled consensual joust losers the option to set a bounty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are so many unknowns and possibilities. The devil is always in the details. Like every thing we'll have to wait and see. I have no problem with a bounty system per say, but at some point time should be served for a crime. Otherwise it's just sanctioned griefing.
Maybe in some cases it would work it self out. After all if some one has an eternal bounty out on you why wouldn't you want to kill them every chance you get? Of course if they are a crafter that almost never leaves their city that may be nigh impossible, or actually impossible.
The victim can be killed by the bounty target every chance they get, whether the victim places a bounty or not. So what is wrong with the victim having the opportunity to even the odds?
And indeed, a PK victim who continues to place egregious bounties with little provocation will have to accept the possible consequences of their actions, just like the original killer does. If the aggressor doesn't like it, or can't do anything personally about it, there's other game mechanics they can avail themselves of like assassination to enact their own revenge.
All the system does is provide both sides with equal firepower. If they want to go all the way to mutually assured destruction, so be it. I just don't see that as griefing.
if a bounty isn't griefing then why place a bounty on any one? Isn't the purpose of a bounty to reduce some one else's fun because they first reduced yours?
No, the purpose of a bounty is to provide a mechanic that is hard for the aggressor to game through which the victim can hire a champion to fight against their aggressor on their behalf. Repeatedly, if necessary.
Remember, bounties are not automatic like some Call of Duty helicopter call-in or something. Some player has to decide the bounty is worth their time to pursue, then find and engage the target. If a player continues posting bounties against a particular target ad nauseum, there's no guarantee that bounty hunters will continue to hound that target relentlessly forever - bounty hunters are players too, they take breaks, they get bored of doing the same thing over and over, they can be beaten, they can be intimidated, etc etc. It's really funny how some bandit types who like picking on weak prey are all up-in-arms about how to deal with their weak prey actually being able to do something proactive about being attacked (again - remember, you have to criminally attack someone first to get a bounty on you in the first place) rather than being eternally on the defensive.
Steal a candy bar? 10 years of torture! That's justice?
Travel the roads minding your own business? 10 years of bandit attacks! I fail to see why infinite bounties are somehow worse than what the bandits' victims suffer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Didn't read the whole thread, but here goes:
I don't think it's griefing if the cost goes up every time a little. or probably even if it doesn't.
Also, bandits are to be hunted. Or madmen who kill others for pleasure. I think this creates good pvp between chartered companies. Bandits vs. bounty hunters.
Bandits can hide in their hide out where no one else can find.
Bountys can only be issued in places where there is law against murder.
Discussed also here.
Actually is the following situation griefing?Bandit A kills merchant B, because ... well thats his job.
Merchant B takes out a bounty and renews it every time.
After getting killed several times by bounty hunters, Bandit A takes the time to research and finds out, that the merchant he robbed once is causing him all this trouble.
So he sends the merchant a letter, and warns him to stop the bounties or face the consequences.
Merchant B, doesn't want to stop renewing the bounty.
After that, Bandit A concentrates his efforts, to rob this specific merchant and kill him at every opportunity.Is that griefing or good RP? After all the Bandit has only a few options. Of course, if he hires other bandits/assassins to kill/hurt that specific merchant... is that griefing?
every time I see an argument like this I can not help but think, how are you going to know who put the bounty on you in the first place if things work as follows. You will already have the criminal flag on you so anyone can kill you with out repercussion and gain lawful alignment shifts and possibly good alignment shifts ( this is definitely how the flag system works), you wont know the person killing you is a bounty hunter unless they say so, you wont get a system message saying merchant b put a bounty on you, the people hunting you to collect the bounty wont know who issued the bounty unless said merchant tells them. The simple fact of the matter is you wont know who did it, thus making your argument moot as there is no way to seek revenge against the merchant. Until Goblin Works announces more hard details we have no clue exactly how things will work, everything is subject to change and everything is still in a hypothetical this how it works situation.
further more, like said earlier, that merchant has to risk his entire inventory every time he goes out to get mats, or make deliveries, he has to hire guards to to hope to prevent you do not rob him, and further more, he has to pay for the bounty in the first place. With out this system he now becomes an easy target with no risk to you and all the risk to him, and hes paying out the neck to help limit his risk which in turn cuts into his profits so the advantage still goes to you with the infinite bounties in place because you have much less to lose then that merchant does.
The system is fair, to an extent, I agree it is not ideal but there really is no way for it to be ideal. now if you could pick pockets to lift an item off of him with out killing him there is no longer a fear of a bounty as you have to deal damage to the merchant.