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Actually they do. Knowledge:Religion is a class skill for them. And 'is Asmodeus evil' would be a PRETTY easy skill check.It occurs to me that the paladin doesn't have access to either the game books or the GM's notes. They won't necessarily know that a particular deity is evil. Mythology being what it is, almost any alignment can be justified for most gods, depending upon which stories you consider to be the most significant.
Can't make knowledge skills untrained. No guarantee this paladin even has an int score with spare points to spend on useless knowledge skills.
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Can't make knowledge skills untrained. No guarantee this paladin even has an int score with spare points to spend on useless knowledge skills.Actually they do. Knowledge:Religion is a class skill for them. And 'is Asmodeus evil' would be a PRETTY easy skill check.It occurs to me that the paladin doesn't have access to either the game books or the GM's notes. They won't necessarily know that a particular deity is evil. Mythology being what it is, almost any alignment can be justified for most gods, depending upon which stories you consider to be the most significant.
Can if it's DC 10 or less. "Is Asmodeus, the Master of Tyranny and Ruler of Hell, Evil?" I'm going to think that's less than a DC10.
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Y'know, I really have to assume that many of you are simply playing Devil's Advocate here, because otherwise..
You do understand that you're stating that it would be perfectly acceptable for a Chaotic Evil Antipaladin to worship Irori under your twisted logic that being used here, right?
Paladins are Lawful AND Good. Neither of these two things are less important than the other. Asmodeus is antithetical to the cause of Good, breaks the Associates clause in the Paladin class, and stands in direct defiance of the Paladin class being called the 'Champions of Law AND Good.'
Asmodeus yes, at least in Golarion, because that's common knowledge. But what alignment is Apollo? Depending on which myths you focus on and which you explain away, there's quite a range of possibilities - including both good and evil.
If your world is a homebrew world with alternate faith systems, then of course, you may have homebrew rules for which deities a paladin can and can't worship. That has no bearing on what RAW is.
There have been a number of possible backstory related justifications presented for why a DM might allow certain character can violate the RAW and worship an evil deity. However, the fact that this would allow you to explore alternative tropes doesn't change what the rules actually are. The fact this might make for a more interesting character or provide more interesting role play opportunities doesn't change what the rules are. The fact that it won't break the game to allow it doesn't change what the rules are. Per RAW the association restrictions on a Paladin don't allow for the worship of an evil deity.
Can't make knowledge skills untrained. No guarantee this paladin even has an int score with spare points to spend on useless knowledge skills.Actually they do. Knowledge:Religion is a class skill for them. And 'is Asmodeus evil' would be a PRETTY easy skill check.It occurs to me that the paladin doesn't have access to either the game books or the GM's notes. They won't necessarily know that a particular deity is evil. Mythology being what it is, almost any alignment can be justified for most gods, depending upon which stories you consider to be the most significant.
False. You can't make knowledge checks over DC 10 untrained. Knowing Asmodeus is evil is probably a DC 5. Meaning that anyone with an int score high enough for greater than animal thought is aware Asmodeus is evil by taking 10.
Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.
Asmodeus yes, at least in Golarion, because that's common knowledge. But what alignment is Apollo? Depending on which myths you focus on and which you explain away, there's quite a range of possibilities - including both good and evil.
If your world is a homebrew world with alternate faith systems, then of course, you may have homebrew rules for which deities a paladin can and can't worship. That has no bearing on what RAW is.
There have been a number of possible backstory related justifications presented for why a DM might allow certain character can violate the RAW and worship an evil deity. However, the fact that this would allow you to explore alternative tropes doesn't change what the rules actually are. The fact this might make for a more interesting character or provide more interesting role play opportunities doesn't change what the rules are. The fact that it won't break the game to allow it doesn't change what the rules are. Per RAW the association restrictions on a Paladin don't allow for the worship of an evil deity.
The RAW don't allow a paladin to worship a deity they know or believe to be evil. The rules don't say anything about how easy it is to discern the true alignment of deities. Having an evil god pretend to be good and even have hundreds or thousands of worshipers believe that he is good does not violate the RAW.
Not true, no where in the association rules for a paladin does it differentiate between those who the paladin knows or does not know to be evil. It does not say he can't knowingly associate with those who are evil it says he can't associate period.
As pointed out before he must determine the alignment of any henchman he wishes to hire and cannot hire them if they aren't lawful good. He must determine the alignment of anyone who wants to follow him and turn them away if they aren't lawful good. It would then be unreasonable to assume he can offer his service and loyalty to a deity without first doing his due diligence with respect to alignment.
I can see a case where a paladin might be mistaken for a worshiper of Asmodeus.
Let's say the paladin comes from Cheliax and has family there. He pays Asmodeus the bare minimum of reverence necessary to keep himself and his family out of trouble with the authorities. He does not select a patron deity by name, so most people assume (incorrectly) that Asmodeus is his patron.
I think the above would make more sense than the problematical canonical reference to paladins of Asmodeus.
The RAW don't allow a paladin to worship a deity they know or believe to be evil. The rules don't say anything about how easy it is to discern the true alignment of deities. Having an evil god pretend to be good and even have hundreds or thousands of worshipers believe that he is good does not violate the RAW.
Not true, no where in the association rules for a paladin does it differentiate between those who the paladin knows or does not know to be evil. It does not say he can't knowingly associate with those who are evil it says he can't associate period.
As pointed out before he must determine the alignment of any henchman he wishes to hire and cannot hire them if they aren't lawful good. He must determine the alignment of anyone who wants to follow him and turn them away if they aren't lawful good. It would then be unreasonable to assume he can offer his service and loyalty to a deity without first doing his due diligence with respect to alignment.
But since there is nothing in the rules that allows any character to determine the alignment of a deity beyond attempting a Knowledge (Religion) roll, that changes nothing.
A quick detect evil on ANY of the acolytes, temples, sacred sites that had been consecrated to Him would show it to any the paladin by RAW...
The RAW don't allow a paladin to worship a deity they know or believe to be evil. The rules don't say anything about how easy it is to discern the true alignment of deities. Having an evil god pretend to be good and even have hundreds or thousands of worshipers believe that he is good does not violate the RAW.
Not true, no where in the association rules for a paladin does it differentiate between those who the paladin knows or does not know to be evil. It does not say he can't knowingly associate with those who are evil it says he can't associate period.
As pointed out before he must determine the alignment of any henchman he wishes to hire and cannot hire them if they aren't lawful good. He must determine the alignment of anyone who wants to follow him and turn them away if they aren't lawful good. It would then be unreasonable to assume he can offer his service and loyalty to a deity without first doing his due diligence with respect to alignment.
But since there is nothing in the rules that allows any character to determine the alignment of a deity beyond attempting a Knowledge (Religion) roll, that changes nothing.
Just like there is nothing in the rules that allow for the paladin to know the alignment of the 0 level butler he wants to hire. It just says that butler cannot be anything other than lawful good. It doesn't say the paladin can't knowingly hire a non-lawful good henchman. It says he can't do it period.
What the paladin knows or does not know isn't considered in the association restrictions. He simply cannot associate with those who are chaotic or evil and that includes deities.
Can't make knowledge skills untrained. No guarantee this paladin even has an int score with spare points to spend on useless knowledge skills.
On Golarion, the major gods and knowing if they're good or bad are simply given. No check is needed the same as you don't need a check to don your armor and tie your shoes. Also, you can as long as the DC is less than 10. Of which, I'd call this a DC 0. This whole thread is rediculous.
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Mechanically, though it is generally true that an easy knowledge check would reveal that Asmodeus is evil, and the "association" clause would prevent a paladin worshipper, there are several things that a GM could allow if they thought that such a character would be a worthwhile addition to their campaign.
- Rule 0.
- A setting where deities are more distant/amoral and the Knowledge DC would be higher than in Golarion.
- Circumstance penalty on the Knowledge check due to being raised within a LN sect of Asmodeus worship which doesn't represent Asmodeus as evil.
- Voluntarily failing a Knowledge check to represent being raised within a LN sect of Asmodeus worship.
Common knowledge says Asmodeus is evil, but we've all met someone who doesn't know something that's considered common knowledge. This is especially true if they are raised in an isolated environment. My group has certainly had characters intentionally fail Knowledge checks for realism in the past, when we feel that a character is unfamiliar with a sub-field due to their background. For example, a druid from the desert may be trained in Knowledge (Nature), but still not recognize a penguin.
Just like there is nothing in the rules that allow for the paladin to know the alignment of the 0 level butler he wants to hire. It just says that butler cannot be anything other than lawful good. It doesn't say the paladin can't knowingly hire a non-lawful good henchman. It says he can't do it period.
What the paladin knows or does not know isn't considered in the association restrictions. He simply cannot associate with those who are chaotic or evil and that includes deities.
So he better not have henchmen, since if he accidentally hires a LN or NG henchman he will fall. Also, he's allowed to associate with chaotic characters as long as they don't "consistently offend his code." Also, why is a paladin allowed to worship a LN or NG deity but not have LN or NG henchmen? Isn't that contrary to the idea that your choice of deity is the most profound decision you can make?
Asmodeus core values, as lawful they may be, are anathema to any kind of conceivable Paladin. And I simply will not accept the idea that someone who can be that stupid to think of Asmodeus as a good guy as Paladin material, no matter what numbers you may generate for stats. At some point, flavor must be invoked to curb the abuse of RAW and this is where I draw the line.
It isn't about stats. A paladin gains nothing mechanically from worshipping Asmodeus (unless you take the Sacred Servant archetype in which case - domain). It's about how Asmodeus is a more unusual and therefore more interesting choice of deity than Iomedae.
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First, a paladin (or other good character) who worships "Asmodeus" could be really interesting. For example, upthread someone suggested a paladin raised by a LN cleric to believe that Asmodeus is a LN deity.The thing I don't like about this type of story... is it makes a class with a poorly deserved reputation for being 'Lawful Stupid' into being... well.. REALLY stupid.
If he's LG and preaching about how awesome the LE god is... despite whatever logic and everyone else tells him... then he's being REALLY stupid. I'm not a fan of the idea of 'Oh yeah... the Paladin is totally wrong... lets all laugh at his foolishness' type stories.
I'd like to think that between his Class Skills and common sense he SHOULD know WHAT he's worshiping...
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It's given as a class skill BECAUSE they are meant to take points in it... As a Paladin, SOME knowledge of your god SHOULD be mandatory.
As a paladin player I fully understand they don't have enough ponts for MANY ranks in it... but one point will give you a score 4... +INT...
There may be various sects and heretics running about... but paladins should be able to tell fact from fiction. They have the knowledge:Religion, Sense motive, immunity to charms... DETECT EVIL... They are REALLY designed around the idea that they aren't 'fooled' by such simple con artists.
This storyline doesn't require that the paladin be terribly stupid, just raised in a specific environment and hesitant to give up on what they've been told their entire life to believe. They can even train Knowledge (Religion) and just decide from an RP point of view that everything they know is biased.
Imagine you are a child in a LN village in Cheliax. You display superior athleticism and leadership from an early age, and so the stern but fair local priest of Asmodeus takes you under his wing. He teaches you that Asmodeus encourages his worshippers to be disciplined, keep their oaths, respect authority, achieve power through self-control, and fight against demons and other creatures of chaos (all of this is out of Faiths of Corruption and is acceptable to paladins). You are told to pray to him as the Prince of Law. The priest does not tell you that Asmodeus also calls for brutal punishment and taking advantage of the less fortunate, since he does not himself favour these parts of Asmodean worship, and you are told about Hell only as a place of perfect order (which is enough since you're not training Knowledge Planes). You read theological texts by LN worshippers of Asmodeus. You are taught a little about other deities, but mostly about how they are savage (eg Rovagug), uncivilized (eg Cayden), or else powerless against savagery without the aid of Asmodeus. You are trained in Religion, but your worldview is heavily biased - as indeed would be the worldview of any person raised in a single faith.
You find your calling as a paladin and because you have been taught that law is of the utmost importance, you take the Oath against Chaos. You are dedicated to fighting back the followers of Rovagug and Lamashtu, and the demons of the Worldwound, in the name of Asmodeus.
Of course, as you leave your town you encounter more and more worshippers of Asmodeus, and while the Oath against Chaos means that you can't conclusively identify them as Evil (you detect Chaos), they are certainly oppressing the weak and generally doing evil things. While you are aware that Asmodeus gives his followers permission to use his gift of power to a number of ends, you have always felt that it was best used to provide stability for all and defend mortals against the predations of demons and similar creatures. Seeing others "abuse" the gift for selfish ends saddens you, and you seek to lead by example, to show others that virtue is also a path to power and that power can be used for the benefit of all rather than only to benefit the powerful.
Perhaps you meet another LN Asmodean who seeks to use you against his LE rivals, and he is able to use you not because you are particularly stupid or gullible, but because he is a very keen manipulator and you want to believe him rather than turn your back on the religion you learned to love for the first two decades of your life. Perhaps you fall when forced to choose between obedience to Asmodeus and dedication to Good. Perhaps you become a Hellknight, realizing that you cannot be fully devoted to Asmodeus and adopting more of the teachings of Iomedae, but without fully abandoning your respect for the Prince of Law. Maybe you head out to the Worldwound to lose your moral confusion (and perhaps your life) in the simple fight against demons that originally drew you to Asmodeus.
In any case, it's a story of struggle, of morality, of identity, of faith. It's a tragic hero, doomed to failure in one way or another. It's a hard role to play, and some people might legitimately not want it in their game. That doesn't mean it's ridiculous or an abomination.
A quick detect evil on ANY of the acolytes, temples, sacred sites that had been consecrated to Him would show it to any the paladin by RAW...The RAW don't allow a paladin to worship a deity they know or believe to be evil. The rules don't say anything about how easy it is to discern the true alignment of deities. Having an evil god pretend to be good and even have hundreds or thousands of worshipers believe that he is good does not violate the RAW.
Not true, no where in the association rules for a paladin does it differentiate between those who the paladin knows or does not know to be evil. It does not say he can't knowingly associate with those who are evil it says he can't associate period.
As pointed out before he must determine the alignment of any henchman he wishes to hire and cannot hire them if they aren't lawful good. He must determine the alignment of anyone who wants to follow him and turn them away if they aren't lawful good. It would then be unreasonable to assume he can offer his service and loyalty to a deity without first doing his due diligence with respect to alignment.
But since there is nothing in the rules that allows any character to determine the alignment of a deity beyond attempting a Knowledge (Religion) roll, that changes nothing.
Not by RAW it wouldn't. On an acolyte would show whether that acolyte is evil, not the deity. Consecrate blesses an area with positive energy, it doesn't give it the alignment of the patron.
By acolyte, I meant cleric. Clerics have an alignment aura of their deity, so regardless of how low a level it was, it would detect as evil if a cleric of any evil god.
Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).
Isn't this what the antipalidan class exists for?
Antipaladins are Chaotic Evil dudes that sow destruction and pain for the fun of it. I think the OP is more interested in a Lawful Evil Paladin type, similar in theme to a Hellknight.
Lawful Evil Paladin
Do you guys really not see how far this topic has fallen? This should have been open and shut in two posts.
The only realistic situation we've been presented with so far is that the paladin doesn't even understand the god he's supposedly 'worshiping'. This is insanity.
A paladin can Detect Evil.Just like there is nothing in the rules that allow for the paladin to know the alignment of the 0 level butler he wants to hire. It just says that butler cannot be anything other than lawful good. It doesn't say the paladin can't knowingly hire a non-lawful good henchman. It says he can't do it period.The RAW don't allow a paladin to worship a deity they know or believe to be evil. The rules don't say anything about how easy it is to discern the true alignment of deities. Having an evil god pretend to be good and even have hundreds or thousands of worshipers believe that he is good does not violate the RAW.
Not true, no where in the association rules for a paladin does it differentiate between those who the paladin knows or does not know to be evil. It does not say he can't knowingly associate with those who are evil it says he can't associate period.
As pointed out before he must determine the alignment of any henchman he wishes to hire and cannot hire them if they aren't lawful good. He must determine the alignment of anyone who wants to follow him and turn them away if they aren't lawful good. It would then be unreasonable to assume he can offer his service and loyalty to a deity without first doing his due diligence with respect to alignment.
But since there is nothing in the rules that allows any character to determine the alignment of a deity beyond attempting a Knowledge (Religion) roll, that changes nothing.
A 0 level butler isn't going to give off a discernible aura. The fact that he doesn't give off an aura and thus the paladin can't so ascertain his alignment still does not permit him to hire such an individual. The paladin's knowledge of his deities alignment is a built in assumption of the system. In the default rules the alignment of the various deities is common knowledge.
If you want to get anal about RAW, the text reads, "A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses and paladin spells and class features." It doesn't say that happens if she violates the associates rule, which is under a different heading that the code of conduct.
What the paladin knows or does not know isn't considered in the association restrictions. He simply cannot associate with those who are chaotic or evil and that includes deities.
That is not getting anal about RAW that is ignoring it. The quote you provided isn't under the code of conduct at all. It is in the part entitled Ex-Paladins which is immediately following the association rules. The association rules do say a paladin who must temporarily associate with an evil entity must seek atonement indicating that doing so constitutes an evil act. Under the Ex-Paladin's section (again NOT the code of conduct) it states that a paladin committing an evil act must loses all paladin spells and class features.
By acolyte, I meant cleric. Clerics have an alignment aura of their deity, so regardless of how low a level it was, it would detect as evil if a cleric of any evil god.Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).There's nothing that requires a deity to have clerics. And even if they do, they may be rare enough that the paladin has never met one. A world doesn't have to be like Golarion.
What may be possible in a homebrew world is not relevant to a rules discussion. That belongs in the forum created specifically for the discussion of homebrew campaigns and house rules.
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What may be possible in a homebrew world is not relevant to a rules discussion. That belongs in the forum created specifically for the discussion of homebrew campaigns and house rules.
By acolyte, I meant cleric. Clerics have an alignment aura of their deity, so regardless of how low a level it was, it would detect as evil if a cleric of any evil god.Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).There's nothing that requires a deity to have clerics. And even if they do, they may be rare enough that the paladin has never met one. A world doesn't have to be like Golarion.
And golarion specific discussions have their own forum as well. Golarion has no more sway in the rules forum than any other setting.
In the default rules the alignment of the various deities is common knowledge.Where in the rules does it say that?
Throughout the various source books, such as Inner Sea Gods, players companions for APs, etc...
For just one example take the Rise of the Runelords AP. It is just assumed that the characters realize that Lamashtu is evil. There is nothing in the AP that requires them to make a roll to understand that or requires them to research it. It is treated as common knowledge.
And golarion specific discussions have their own forum as well. Golarion has no more sway in the rules forum than any other setting.What may be possible in a homebrew world is not relevant to a rules discussion. That belongs in the forum created specifically for the discussion of homebrew campaigns and house rules.
By acolyte, I meant cleric. Clerics have an alignment aura of their deity, so regardless of how low a level it was, it would detect as evil if a cleric of any evil god.Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).There's nothing that requires a deity to have clerics. And even if they do, they may be rare enough that the paladin has never met one. A world doesn't have to be like Golarion.
Other than that the rules assume the Golarion setting. For exmaple, in the Advance Players Guide (not a campaign book) the religion traits assume Golarion deities.
However, that is all tangential to the fact that the rules for the paladin association make no differentiation between the paladin knowing the alignment of an associate or not. Association with evil entities is prohibited regardless of the paladin's knowledge.
there's a major difference between a one time necessary alliance and pledging your obeisance and very soul to a Master of Evil, standing on a hill shouting "Hellfire, I am YOURS!" (Because that's what worship is.) If a Paladin can not enter into a cohort relationship with an evil person, I'd find it rather strange that someone can argue that he can be casual about which deity he takes for his divine patron.So, here's a thought:
The Paladin's code does allow Paladins to align with lesser evils to defeat a greater one. While Asmodeus is undeniably evil, one could make the case that he's the lesser evil compared to the likes of Lamashtu and Rogavug. Asmodeus is very into the pragmatic evil position of not letting anyone destroy the world, even if it's only so his minions can conquer it later.
Seems like you're using a much more extreme definition of worship than I am. Though that seems to be one of the main issues of the whole thread, really. Utter slavish devotion to evil is never going to fit with a Paladin, yet things like Paladin Hellknights do rather indicate that some kind of modus vivendi can exist. Granted, Hellknights don't have to worship Asmodeus, but at the very least there's a degree of admiration for his efficiency.
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And as to whether people could be that wrong about their deity, I just have to ask, have you ever seen any kind of news source or history book? The divergence in views in any major theistic religion is broad enough that there are people whose beliefs about their deity are unmistakably "a belief that this deity is evil" according to other members of that religion. That implies that there could be similar divergence among members of various other sects.
Except the gods in Pathfinder exist for a fact. They are tangible, they have domains, a history, and they are objectively Evil or Good.
No moral questions, or disagreements due to point of view. Good and Evil are qualities a being either has or does not in this world, and they are mutually exclusive.
Strictly rules-as-written: I don't see anything prohibiting it.
Other than the rules prohibiting the paladin from associating with anyone who is evil or chaotic you mean?
Strictly rules-as-written: I don't see anything prohibiting it.Other than the rules prohibiting the paladin from associating with anyone who is evil or chaotic you mean?I don't see such a rule. What I see is:
While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good.I agree that nothing here says anything about the paladin's knowledge, but it seems pretty obvious to me that "avoids" implies awareness; you can't "avoid" a thing you don't know about. Furthermore, the "ally with evil associates" exception seems strong enough.
Ally with a lawful-evil deity who's more lawful than evil, and has a lot of lawful-neutral cultists, against a powerful alliance of mostly-pure-evil people? Plausible. And "should" seek an atonement spell is not a requirement that they manage it at any particular interval, or indeed ever, just that they ought to.
Service to a deity is not a temporary arrangement. The paladin isn't forming a loose alliance with the deity until they defeat a predefined greater evil. He is becoming that deities servant, representative and champion. If you read further down on the associates list you will find that a paladin cannot even have a follower who is not lawful good. I have seen no plausible explanation that the paladin would then be able to himself be a follower of a non-lawful good deity.
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Y'know, I really have to assume that many of you are simply playing Devil's Advocate here, because otherwise..
You do understand that you're stating that it would be perfectly acceptable for a Chaotic Evil Antipaladin to worship Irori under your twisted logic that being used here, right?
Paladins are Lawful AND Good. Neither of these two things are less important than the other. Asmodeus is antithetical to the cause of Good, breaks the Associates clause in the Paladin class, and stands in direct defiance of the Paladin class being called the 'Champions of Law AND Good.'
Yeah, so? What is your point?
1. No one expects anti-paladins to be entirely sane.2. The diety they worship does not need to be the one granting him powers.
3. It is more likely for an anti-paladin to do his work in the name of a good god than the reverse, since it would sow discord.
But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.By this argument you cannot have chaotic followers of deities, because they either A) aren't actually following them, or B) are lawful. Likewise, you'd not be able to be a member of a church unless you 100% matched up with the deity in question.
Meanwhile, in Wrath of the Righteous pt 4, it mentions Nocticula is often worshiped by heretics who aren't into the whole evil stuff, but worship her more positive aspects such as being a patron of outcasts, artistry, and the glories of midnight; suggesting that they even come into conflict with the more mainstream believers; and they still get spells.
Not everyone is going to have the same outlook on faith, and some people are just strait up blind to certain aspects of it. Asmodeous for example is orderly, assisted in the binding of the god of destruction, and even after his vengeance for what he saw as his brother's betrayal, had sympathy and allowed mortals to remain with free will.
A Paladin could very easily cling to towards the positive aspects of Asmodean faith, such as the strength of order and the consistency that it provides, their activities in caring for orphans, or the fact that for an evil god he certain hands out more healing spells to his clerics than they normally have available. He's a bad guy, but not all of his faith revolves around hurting people.
It would be entirely possible, realistic even, for a...
The question asked though is could the Paladin worship the deity. By worshiping only the strength of order, etc, isn't worshiping the deity, he/she is worshiping the ideals of law, order, etc. Which is fine, since a Paladin doesn't need a deity in order to get their abilities. So in that case the Paladin wouldn't consider themselves a follower of Asmodeus, per se, since they don't agree with all that the deity encompasses.
Remember too that with Nocticula, a cleric that is CN (very fitting for an outcast, who would be looking mostly out for themselves), could still get spells from a CE deity, like Nocticula.
The question isn't whether the Paladin could *agree* with some of the teachings of Asmodeus, it's whether or not he could worship the evil god . Keep in mind what the definition of worship is: v. show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites. The last bit is what would pull the Paladin into question. I'm sure the rites for Asmodeus would include some that were considered evil. If the Paladin aligns with evil, which they would be doing by aligning with a known evil organization, it would at the very least require atonement if the Paladin in some amazing set of circumstances didn't realize Asmodeus, and Asmodeus' church was evil, and a split from the deity, if not an outright fall. Asmodeus, and his church, would be just too far removed from what the Paladin has to stand for.
I'd kind of liken this to Ender's Game. Ender is brought up because of his ruthless competitive nature, and told repeatedly that what he's doing is a game, and he has to prove himself in order to gain what amounts to the ultimate prize. He does this, and the "game" leads to genocide, as the expense of thousands of friendly lives. Ender to this point has just accepted everything he's been spoon fed, thinking he's striving for good (In our case above the Paladin that doesn't know Asmodeus is evil). Once he finds out that the "game" was in actuality real, he's horrified (Paladin finds out who Asmodeus really is). From that point forward, he leaves the outfit he was with in order to atone for his mistake even though he was misled to it (Paladin finds out his misdeed, splits from the church of Asmodeus, and goes on his way to make up for his mistake (perhaps devoting himself to thwarting Asmodeus' evil)). This makes a GREAT story, and could lead to some outstanding RP, but it really starts from a point of ignorance on the Paladin.
Why can't it be a temporary arrangement? People change religions sometimes in polytheistic settings.
I don't really feel I need any particular "explanation" for why "paladin cannot have follower who is X" would also imply "paladin cannot follow someone who is X". A paladin's moral code prohibits them from killing innocents; it does not prohibit them from being killed by innocents, although it might make that a very unusual outcome.
So, yeah, it seems highly unlikely, and I'd be surprised by it, but it fits several narrative tropes and there's enough holes in the rules to, I think, make it possible.
Ordinary laypeople may change religions but a paladin represents a champion and paragon of his religion. The service to the his deity is a fundamental quality of his class.
Your example of a paladin not being able to kill innocents vs able to be killed by them is a false analogy. Being killed by the innocents is not an action that the paladin performs it is what the innocents do. The paladin accepting a follower and following a deity are both choices the paladin makes. It is unreasonable for him to be unable to choose an evil follower but is himself able to follow evil.
...But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.By this argument you cannot have chaotic followers of deities, because they either A) aren't actually following them, or B) are lawful. Likewise, you'd not be able to be a member of a church unless you 100% matched up with the deity in question.
Meanwhile, in Wrath of the Righteous pt 4, it mentions Nocticula is often worshiped by heretics who aren't into the whole evil stuff, but worship her more positive aspects such as being a patron of outcasts, artistry, and the glories of midnight; suggesting that they even come into conflict with the more mainstream believers; and they still get spells.
Not everyone is going to have the same outlook on faith, and some people are just strait up blind to certain aspects of it. Asmodeous for example is orderly, assisted in the binding of the god of destruction, and even after his vengeance for what he saw as his brother's betrayal, had sympathy and allowed mortals to remain with free will.
A Paladin could very easily cling to towards the positive aspects of Asmodean faith, such as the strength of order and the consistency that it provides, their activities in caring for orphans, or the fact that for an evil god he certain hands out more healing spells to his clerics than they normally have available. He's a bad guy, but not all of his faith revolves around hurting people.
It would be entirely possible,
Except that the association rules for a paladin don't stipulate that they only apply if the paladin knowingly violates them. The code of conduct specifically calls out that the paladin must "willingly" commit an evil act to be jammed up but the association rules do not. Especially the portion about the paladin's own henchmen, followers and cohorts are extremely restrictive with no exceptions.
This storyline doesn't require that the paladin be terribly stupid, just raised in a specific environment and hesitant to give up on what they've been told their entire life to believe. They can even train Knowledge (Religion) and just decide from an RP point of view that everything they know is biased.
Imagine you are a child in a LN village in Cheliax. You display superior athleticism and leadership from an early age, and so the stern but fair local priest of Asmodeus takes you under his wing. He teaches you that Asmodeus encourages his worshippers to be disciplined, keep their oaths, respect authority, achieve power through self-control, and fight against demons and other creatures of chaos (all of this is out of Faiths of Corruption and is acceptable to paladins). You are told to pray to him as the Prince of Law. The priest does not tell you that Asmodeus also calls for brutal punishment and taking advantage of the less fortunate, since he does not himself favour these parts of Asmodean worship, and you are told about Hell only as a place of perfect order (which is enough since you're not training Knowledge Planes). You read theological texts by LN worshippers of Asmodeus. You are taught a little about other deities, but mostly about how they are savage (eg Rovagug), uncivilized (eg Cayden), or else powerless against savagery without the aid of Asmodeus. You are trained in Religion, but your worldview is heavily biased - as indeed would be the worldview of any person raised in a single faith.
You find your calling as a paladin and because you have been taught that law is of the utmost importance, you take the Oath against Chaos. You are dedicated to fighting back the followers of Rovagug and Lamashtu, and the demons of the Worldwound, in the name of Asmodeus.
Of course, as you leave your town you encounter more and more worshippers of Asmodeus, and while the Oath against Chaos means that you can't conclusively identify them as Evil (you detect Chaos), they are certainly oppressing the weak and generally doing evil things. While you are aware that Asmodeus gives his followers permission to use his gift of power to a number of ends, you have always felt that it was best used to provide stability for all and defend mortals against the predations of demons and similar creatures. Seeing others "abuse" the gift for selfish ends saddens you, and you seek to lead by example, to show others that virtue is also a path to power and that power can be used for the benefit of all rather than only to benefit the powerful.
Perhaps you meet another LN Asmodean who seeks to use you against his LE rivals, and he is able to use you not because you are particularly stupid or gullible, but because he is a very keen manipulator and you want to believe him rather than turn your back on the religion you learned to love for the first two decades of your life. Perhaps you fall when forced to choose between obedience to Asmodeus and dedication to Good. Perhaps you become a Hellknight, realizing that you cannot be fully devoted to Asmodeus and adopting more of the teachings of Iomedae, but without fully abandoning your respect for the Prince of Law. Maybe you head out to the Worldwound to lose your moral confusion (and perhaps your life) in the simple fight against demons that originally drew you to Asmodeus.
In any case, it's a story of struggle, of morality, of identity, of faith. It's a tragic hero, doomed to failure in one way or another. It's a hard role to play, and some people might legitimately not want it in their game. That doesn't mean it's ridiculous or an abomination.
I know many people who would enjoy playing this character, including myself. Some have tried similar things. This is the type of character I try to get from casting applications when I do oneshot larps.
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...But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.By this argument you cannot have chaotic followers of deities, because they either A) aren't actually following them, or B) are lawful. Likewise, you'd not be able to be a member of a church unless you 100% matched up with the deity in question.
Meanwhile, in Wrath of the Righteous pt 4, it mentions Nocticula is often worshiped by heretics who aren't into the whole evil stuff, but worship her more positive aspects such as being a patron of outcasts, artistry, and the glories of midnight; suggesting that they even come into conflict with the more mainstream believers; and they still get spells.
Not everyone is going to have the same outlook on faith, and some people are just strait up blind to certain aspects of it. Asmodeous for example is orderly, assisted in the binding of the god of destruction, and even after his vengeance for what he saw as his brother's betrayal, had sympathy and allowed mortals to remain with free will.
A Paladin could very easily cling to towards the positive aspects of Asmodean faith, such as the strength of order and the consistency that it provides, their activities in caring for orphans, or the fact that for an evil god he certain hands out more healing spells to his clerics than they normally have available. He's a bad guy, but not all of his faith revolves around hurting people.
It would be entirely possible,
Stop enabling engaging roleplaying experiences. It's getting in the way of our mutual accusations of BadWrongFun™.
The Gods Claw order of the Hellknights actually gives an out for Chelaxian paladins. That order reveres five lords of law -- Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon, Abadar, Erastil, and Iomedae. Three of the five are perfectly acceptable as patron deities for a paladin. The more evil among the Hellknights have no problem with such paladins as long as "defeat the followers of Asmodeus" never rises to the top of their "to do" lists because they have higher priority chaotic evil targets to deal with.
...But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.By this argument you cannot have chaotic followers of deities, because they either A) aren't actually following them, or B) are lawful. Likewise, you'd not be able to be a member of a church unless you 100% matched up with the deity in question.
Meanwhile, in Wrath of the Righteous pt 4, it mentions Nocticula is often worshiped by heretics who aren't into the whole evil stuff, but worship her more positive aspects such as being a patron of outcasts, artistry, and the glories of midnight; suggesting that they even come into conflict with the more mainstream believers; and they still get spells.
Not everyone is going to have the same outlook on faith, and some people are just strait up blind to certain aspects of it. Asmodeous for example is orderly, assisted in the binding of the god of destruction, and even after his vengeance for what he saw as his brother's betrayal, had sympathy and allowed mortals to remain with free will.
A Paladin could very easily cling to towards the positive aspects of Asmodean faith, such as the strength of order and the consistency that it provides, their activities in caring for orphans, or the fact that for an evil god he certain hands out more healing spells to his clerics than they normally have available. He's a bad guy, but not all of his faith revolves around hurting people.
It
Actually, the rules don't say that you can fall from associates, only that you should seek atonement occasionally during missions where you are working with them for a prolonged period of time.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
And yes, the associate rule specifically talks about people who violate the Paladin's moral code. If they don't do it where he can see it (and he isn't intentionally turning a blind eye), there is nothing that would make him fall from working with evil people.
Ok, then, if a Paladin can't worship and serve Asmodeous...who does? Who are His Holy Champions, defending his faith (the order and law as well as more insidious and evil sides)? Surly all gods have Holy Champions they can hold up as pillars of faith, not just Clerics, or fervent believers, but Holy Warriors that fight for them, in their name.....or are only LG gods allowed that?...and I guess CE gods as well, because Antipaladin.
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Ok, then, if a Paladin can't worship and serve Asmodeous...who does? Who are His Holy Champions, defending his faith (the order and law as well as more insidious and evil sides)? Surly all gods have Holy Champions they can hold up as pillars of faith, not just Clerics, or fervent believers, but Holy Warriors that fight for them, in their name.....or are only LG gods allowed that?...and I guess CE gods as well, because Antipaladin.
Don't you mean unholy warriors?
I am sure that Asmodeus has plenty of Inquisitors.