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But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin."Cafeteria Asmodism" woulud be lawful neutral or neutral evil. That's basically the "one step from your deity" situation. Note that neither of those are lawful good.
Wait.
A lawful good character who is devoted to law worships LE Asmodeus as the lawful patron of his nation and who is worthy of respect and veneration as the binder of Rovagug. He follows and respects a lot of the lawful but ignores the evil teachings of the church. He keeps himself bound by an honorable code of conduct and joins a lawful organization with lawful aims and methods (say the hellknights).
He is chaoticly not lawful because even though he follows a lawful code and worships a lawful god, he does not follow the evil teachings of the god's church?
It seems a stretch to say that not following a church's evil teachings is necessarily enough to turn an otherwise lawful creature from lawful into a nonlawful one.
But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin."Cafeteria Asmodism" woulud be lawful neutral or neutral evil. That's basically the "one step from your deity" situation. Note that neither of those are lawful good.
Wait.
A lawful good character who is devoted to law worships LE Asmodeus as the lawful patron of his nation and who is worthy of respect and veneration as the binder of Rovagug. He follows and respects a lot of the lawful but ignores the evil teachings of the church. He keeps himself bound by an honorable code of conduct and joins a lawful organization with lawful aims and methods (say the hellknights).
He is chaoticly not lawful because even though he follows a lawful code and worships a lawful god, he does not follow the evil teachings of the god's church?
It seems a stretch to say that not following a church's evil teachings is necessarily enough to turn an otherwise lawful creature from lawful into a nonlawful one.
I think what JJ is saying is paladin sort of have to stay within one step of Lawful Good as far as gods go. It doesn't matter if Asmodeus is a smart choice of patron diety (hint: he isn't anyway), you've taken one too many steps from LG.
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But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.
By this argument you cannot have chaotic followers of deities, because they either A) aren't actually following them, or B) are lawful. Likewise, you'd not be able to be a member of a church unless you 100% matched up with the deity in question.
Meanwhile, in Wrath of the Righteous pt 4, it mentions Nocticula is often worshiped by heretics who aren't into the whole evil stuff, but worship her more positive aspects such as being a patron of outcasts, artistry, and the glories of midnight; suggesting that they even come into conflict with the more mainstream believers; and they still get spells.
Not everyone is going to have the same outlook on faith, and some people are just strait up blind to certain aspects of it. Asmodeous for example is orderly, assisted in the binding of the god of destruction, and even after his vengeance for what he saw as his brother's betrayal, had sympathy and allowed mortals to remain with free will.
A Paladin could very easily cling to towards the positive aspects of Asmodean faith, such as the strength of order and the consistency that it provides, their activities in caring for orphans, or the fact that for an evil god he certain hands out more healing spells to his clerics than they normally have available. He's a bad guy, but not all of his faith revolves around hurting people.
It would be entirely possible, realistic even, for a Paladin to pray to Asmodeous (especially if he was raised to believe in his power) for more benign purposes and living his life as a servant of the order and security that Asmodeous provides, even if he doesn't get into the darker aspects of the deity.
Which, you know, is not an uncommon thing for religions. Without naming any names, I'm very certain that you can go out and find some people who are widely considered very faithful to their given faith, but do not do things like keep slaves, sacrifice animals, kill their brothers for following other gods, engage in rampant misogyny, etc.
Again, simply believing in the greatness of a deity, including someone like Asmodeous who while being a jerk does have some shining points on his track record, does not make one the same as that deity. Since a Paladin does not get their abilities from that deity, they don't even have to worry about maintaining perfect relations with their church, because their own moral compass comes first.
And again, if the Paladin is not hurting, oppressing, or killing, he's not doing evil and thus does not fall. Not following your faith's tenets that conflict with your own code does not suddenly make you chaotic-chaotic, it just means you have priorities and different values.
Or we could throw a big wormbomb and have your Paladin worship a pantheon. Maybe he calls on the favor of tons of different gods. :)
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But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.By this argument you cannot have chaotic followers of deities, because they either A) aren't actually following them, or B) are lawful. Likewise, you'd not be able to be a member of a church unless you 100% matched up with the deity in question.
Meanwhile, in Wrath of the Righteous pt 4, it mentions Nocticula is often worshiped by heretics who aren't into the whole evil stuff, but worship her more positive aspects such as being a patron of outcasts, artistry, and the glories of midnight; suggesting that they even come into conflict with the more mainstream believers; and they still get spells.
Not everyone is going to have the same outlook on faith, and some people are just strait up blind to certain aspects of it. Asmodeous for example is orderly, assisted in the binding of the god of destruction, and even after his vengeance for what he saw as his brother's betrayal, had sympathy and allowed mortals to remain with free will.
A Paladin could very easily cling to towards the positive aspects of Asmodean faith, such as the strength of order and the consistency that it provides, their activities in caring for orphans, or the fact that for an evil god he certain hands out more healing spells to his clerics than they normally have available. He's a bad guy, but not all of his faith revolves around hurting people.
It would be entirely possible, realistic even, for a...
No... it means you can't have chaotic paladins, or paladin followers of chaotic creatures. My comments are about paladins only.
A non-paladin doesn't factor into my comments at all.
OBVIOUSLY you can have worshipers of chaotic deities. We do it all the time. They are not and can not be paladins though... which is what this thread's supposed to be asking about.
Feel free to rule thigns differently in home games, of course... but posting and asking them here in a context of "what's right" comes with an implied "What's right for the rules as written/what's right for Golarion."
Please don't use my words talking about why you can't have a Paladin worshiping an evil deity as anything other than paladins not worshiping evil deities, in other words. ;-)
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No... it means you can't have chaotic paladins, or paladin followers of chaotic creatures. My comments are about paladins only.
Nobody said anything about chaotic paladins, except for you. You're the only person who's insisted that the Paladin would have to be chaotic. A statement that frankly makes no sense based on the line of reasoning that you presented. The line of reasoning that worshiping a deity makes you more that deities' alignment, and that "ignoring half of the church's teachings" is a "chaotic act" (which the alignment rules do not support).
The thing is, taken it its logical conclusion, that means that anyone, clerics included, who are devoted to to their deities are thus becoming lawful; which means there would be no chaotic-devotees. If you thoroughly embrace a chaotic good god, then you are, by your assertion going to become lawful good because not embracing every aspect of your deity is chaotic, thus embracing them fully would be lawful.
A non-paladin doesn't factor into my comments at all.
Except that it does, because what is true for one is true for all in this case, because we are talking about alignment. You have made a declaration that less than full devotion to a god is chaotic, and that has far-reaching consequences. Because this actually is about more than Paladins, but the question has the most bearing upon Paladins because of the fact Paladins are alignment-taxed, and the question is answered for Clerics who are sometimes alignment/deity-taxed.
OBVIOUSLY you can have worshipers of chaotic deities. We do it all the time. They are not and can not be paladins though... which is what this thread's supposed to be asking about.
But you haven't explained why, and your only explanation was because not being fully devoted to every aspect of the deity was chaotic, which means the reverse is true too. If you have loyal clerics of a chaotic good god, they will lose their powers for eventually bending and ending up Lawful. The more invested in their god, the more lawful, by your own line of reasoning.
A line of reasoning that does not work.
Feel free to rule thigns differently in home games, of course... but posting and asking them here in a context of "what's right" comes with an implied "What's right for the rules as written/what's right for Golarion."
The rules as written are pretty clear. It's not evil unless you are hurting, oppressing, or killing someone. Likewise, we can see that your argument is bunk because it leads to an absurdity (the lack of chaotic-aligned worshipers).
Please don't use my words talking about why you can't have a Paladin worshiping an evil deity as anything other than paladins not worshiping evil deities, in other words. ;-)
The thing is, you haven't explained why. You just said no. That's dumb. Not saying that you are dumb, but I'm certainly saying that's a dumb argument. You need to be able to reason things and explain them with reasonable evidence and such.
The only line of reasoning that you've put forth is bunk, because it leads to absurdity and it is not supported at all with the alignment rules. In fact, the only thing that could even be considered a chaotic-part of non-full adherence to every aspect of your religious faith or god would be flexibility, but you're being inflexible in that you won't accept the darker aspects of the god over your own code of conduct; which by its nature is explicit inflexibility (whereas flexibility would be compromising between the two, but there is no compromise, it's code first, religion second).
You're going to need to do better.
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As far as I can tell, you've suggested that "cafeteria Thingy-ism" is chaotic, because "ignoring half of [a deity]'s teachings is a chaotic act."
This does suggest that "orthodox Thingy-ism" is therefore lawful. If picking and choosing among all of your god's rules is chaotic, then not-picking would be lawful.
So does this imply that there's no such thing as an orthodox Milani-ist, because such a person would inevitably be lawful?
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Full adherence to a Chaotic God would imply that you're also living up to whatever part of their credo makes them Chaotic. I'm uh, not really seeing an issue here. This is a literary attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill. Paladins cannot follow Evil or Chaotic gods, without shortly becoming former Paladins.
Clerics are... significantly less restricted, in that they can be any alignment that's within one step of their deity or ideal.
Edit: Honestly, this has never not been the case since the beginning of 3E, with the noted exception of Sune Firehair being able to have Paladins in the Forgotten Realms setting. Which, as many people pointed out back then, was dumb.
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Full adherence to a Chaotic God would imply that you're also living up to whatever part of their credo makes them Chaotic. I'm uh, not really seeing an issue here. This is a literary attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill. Paladins cannot follow Evil or Chaotic gods, without shortly becoming former Paladins.
Clerics are... significantly less restricted, in that they can be any alignment that's within one step of their deity or ideal.
Edit: Honestly, this has never not been the case since the beginning of 3E, with the noted exception of Sune Firehair being able to have Paladins in the Forgotten Realms setting. Which, as many people pointed out back then, was dumb.
Ah, but the thing is, according to JJ, their full adherence would be lawful, even if they were being chaotic; which would make any sort of chaotic character impossible as according to JJ it's not even a little lawful/chaotic, but enough to bring about full-blown alignment shift.
I mean, a Paladin who mostly worshipped an evil deity might be being a bit chaotic for being faithful and following the portions of the religion he most identified with, but would be full blown mega-lawful for being a Paladin and following their code above all else and such.
If it's enough that it outweighs the Paladin's own codes, then it's enough to outweigh everyone else's habits, which means that it's enough to force all devout chaotics to become devout neutrals at the very least.
This isn't just about Paladins at this point.
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I suspect Chaotic gods have fewer rules and regulations by nature. If the rule is 'do whatever you want...' and you follow it, then that isn't going to make you lawful. Doing what you want makes you chaotic... it just happens to match up with the doctrine...
Likewise if the rule is promote evil and tyranny and follow laws... and you only follow the rules you want to... then you aren't really following the doctrine of THAT god! You're doing what YOU want.. not him and therefore... back to Chaotic.
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If you want to play an evil god worshiping paladin, play an antipaladin or a warpriest instead.
The problem with the Antipaladin is the Code of Conduct.
It's even more hard to follow than the Paladin version if you ask me.
I suspect Chaotic gods have fewer rules and regulations by nature. If the rule is 'do whatever you want...' and you follow it, then that isn't going to make you lawful. Doing what you want makes you chaotic... it just happens to match up with the doctrine...
Likewise if the rule is promote evil and tyranny and follow laws... and you only follow the rules you want to... then you aren't really following the doctrine of THAT god! You're doing what YOU want.. not him and therefore... back to Chaotic.
If a chaotic deity's code is "do whatever you want" does that mean they could count nearly everybody in the world as a worshiper? After all, most lawful characters are doing what they want when they're acting lawfully.
Exactly. There has to be a fine line between 'worshiping' and simply 'acknowledging' them... Not EVERYONE who drinks an ale is 'worshiping Cayden... or who upholds a contract is 'worshipping' Asmodeus... There should be a cut and dried decision at LEAST between player and GM as to what it takes to 'worship' a god.
And there should be ZERO doubt as to WHAT god it is your worshipping. If you're giving fluffy kittens to orphanages in the name of Rovagug.... You're an idiot and it doesn't count.
Only the acts that god WANT actually count ;)
If you want to play an evil god worshiping paladin, play an antipaladin or a warpriest instead.
By JJ's expression, worshipping any deity other than a Lawful Good one would make your alignment shift to that deity's, which is severely limiting in an area that the rules are most definitely not limiting in.
Not long ago I played a witch-themed character who paid homage to one or two hag queens. She was, herself, incredibly good, but counted herself amongst the queen's 'daughters' because of her raising and teachings, but she would beseech mercy from said hag queens, by offering prayers such as "My mother, my queen, turn your spiteful gaze from this one that s/he may pass safely without curse, thorn, or bramble, nor wart nor affliction blight".
Kind of like how sick people often pay homage to Urgathoa.
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can a paladin worship an evil deity?
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Noooooo.
Is there anything preventing a paladin from worshiping an evil deity?
yes, the "evil" bit.
But more seriously though, you want to make a religious knight who worships an evil entity and is seeking to propagate its will in the world?
Ok, then make a fighter.
Or a cavalier, or a ranger or ... well pretty much any warrior-type class can be a unholy templar for evil. just write "evil" in the aligment bit and roleplay from there.
But what about the holy magics the paladin has, you say?
well, I guess you don't have that then, tough cookies, kid.
if it's important to have "Holyz Magix" then multiclass to cleric at some point. (or any other divine specasting class that is not hampered by the evil alignment)
seperating fluff from class abilities will make character building much easier for many of us.
Disclaimer: I'm tired of paladins, or mores specific; I love paladins,I'm playing one in my home game.
What I'm tired of, is people trying to make the paladin into something he's not. The paladin class is pretty much "the good guy", he doesn't have to be nice, or dumb, he can be rude and smelly. But when it comes to goals his is: protecting people, saving people, saving the world if applicable.
And trying to justify neutral or evil paladins is in my eyes the same as trying to make the fighter shit fireballs.
(I honestly don't care about the whole lawful/chaotic-part of the debate, because I think it's a very subjective thing. And in my homegames we just leave the alignment box blank and play, if the paladin player starts heading in an evil direction I tell him or hint. And I always specify if there is a real danger of falling.)
-LO
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No. This sort of theorywanking serves no purpose but to start flame wars.
Many Paladins? As in who? I defy you to point out a single Paizo NPC Paladin that's not tied to a diety. (that's a wild goose chase, all divine classes save Oracle, in Golarion HAVE to have a divine sponsor), You won't even find them in Forgotten Realms novels. And among the tables I've run I've yet to come across a Paladin who didn't declare himself for some power.There are no mechanics in the Core Rulebook that state that a paladin's power must come from a deity. Many paladins don't even worship a deity at all.Actually, the mechanical problem of a paladin serving an evil god is that his power has to come from somewhere.
If his power comes from a good god, then worshiping an evil god will get his power taken away.
If his power comes from an evil god, then that is a problem because he gets positive energy channel, and evil gods can't grant that.
Theoretically, he could get his power from a neutral deity, who grans him positive energy powers yet lets him give his faith and worship to an evil being, but I cant think of any situation in which a (presumably lawful) nuetral deity would find an advantage in doing that. (Some of the chaotic nuetral ones would just do it for laughs I suppose. But they can't grant the Lawful powers of a paladin...
Actually, no. Even in Golarion Paladins are not required to worship a deity. PFS, yes. Golarion, no.
There are no mechanics in the Core Rulebook that state that a paladin's power must come from a deity. Many paladins don't even worship a deity at all.This is absolutely true. In Golarion, most paladins worship a deity but they don't have to. Their powers are "fueled" by their faith, and that doesn't have to be faith in a deity. It could be faith in an idea, a philosophy, a cause, or whatever. They need something to believe in. And if that belief isn't lawful good, it'd better be lawful neutral for the paladin to focus harder on the law than the good, or neutral good for the paladin to focus harder on the good instead of the law. The paladin herself remains lawful good, so in a way, its her ALIGNMENT that is the source of her power.
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What I'm contesting is the implied assertion by one poster that many or most of Golarion's Paladins do not worship a deity. I have yet to find ANY NPC Paladins in Paizo's published novels, modules, adventure paths, or scenarios that are not written up as dedicated to a specific deity.
1. I said "many", not "most". Do not put words into my fingers. I am not composed of straw.
2. Paizo-published NPCs do not make up the bulk of paladins in all Pathfinder campaigns ever. It's much simpler to publish a paladin with a deity when making an NPC, and it fits better into Golarion's worship-heavy mythos. But it is not a requirement, even in Golarion, and many people play paladins without explicit patrons without "zomg homebr00ing".
For what it is worth on the argument.This is the section from Council of Theives, Chapter 5, Mother of Flies pgs 65-66
Military Orders & Paladins
As a whole, Asmodeus’s church has few organized groups of soldiers, mainly because in most lands their religion is forbidden and a large, open group attracts too much attention. Even in many evil countries, where worship of the Prince of Darkness is openly allowed, tyrannical militaries and despotic laws reduce the need or impetus to create special groups in Asmodeus’s name. However, monastic orders aligned with Hell are not that unusual; the rigid discipline and isolated community of such an organization are complementary to the lawful-minded and often-persecuted Asmodean faith.
Paladins also have a strange relationship with the Archfiend. Though the idea of a lawful good paladin serving a lawful evil deity seems ridiculous, it can happen. Asmodeus is primarily a deity of law, with evil being incidental to his concept of law. Very rarely, Asmodeus allows a true paladin to serve him, using him as a tool in lands where a more traditional priest would be hunted. The paladin’s duties are always very carefully explained and restricted to avoid conflicts that result in evil thoughts or actions; in effect, the paladin is a champion of contracts and law, who happens to be good.
This is possible for three reasons: One, Asmodeus can have clerics who are lawful neutral rather than lawful evil; these clerics walk a fine line that avoids outright evil while still promoting order, and therefore in theory a paladin can do the same. Two, the nature of evil does not require one to always be evil; an evil person who doesn’t rob, murder, or torture at every opportunity is not at risk of becoming less evil—in fact, an evil person can perform good acts every day, making it entirely possible (though exceedingly rare) for a servant of Asmodeus to be good, having never done an evil act. Three, the deceptions of Asmodeus are subtle and deft, and it’s potentially possible for a paladin to believe his efforts and the orderly god’s will serve a greater good, though ultimately he serves nothing more than the god of tyranny’s cruel agendas.
Such paladins sometimes see themselves as reformers of their church, trying to convince others that it is possible to serve the ultimate law and still be a good person. Religious scholars speculate that these paladins are actually granted powers by another deity (typically Iomedae or Sarenrae) through some complex arrangement with the Prince of Darkness. However, it is possible that having a good paladin in his service benefits his plans in the long run, and that these enigmatic individuals really are serving Asmodeus. Their path is much more difficult than other paladins, and only those lucky enough to die young avoid falling from grace—though what fate their souls face in the afterlife remains a matter of great theological debate.
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This is of interest to me because it sounds like the sort of thing that I, or someone I know, might be interested in exploring in the future; and because this has far-reaching implications for all characters not just Paladins.
As I mentioned before, religion is something I take into account for most of my characters, even when religion isn't something that is connected to their class features (such as with the aforementioned witch-y character who would implore Gyronna to look upon the badguys, or stay her gaze from those she wished unharmed; and she was raised to be devoted to Gyronna by her aunt who was a very spiteful witch; but the character herself embraced Gyronna in the most positive ways possible, and clung to her as a patron of the fallen and punishment for transgressions).
It's nonsensically limiting in a multitude of ways, and quite immersion breaking. Especially with the line of reasoning used by JJ earlier in the thread where the more devoted you are to a deity the more lawful you are, and the more devoted to only certain aspects of that deity makes you chaotic; as that pretty much ruins gods for everyone, just to try to crush odd corner cases like Paladins who happen to empathize with *insert evil deity* or consider them their god.
And what exactly does that entail, exactly? Who is it hurting? It has no mechanical repercussions. Most classes, including Paladins, don't get any special features for having particular gods. What are you losing with the ability to have a Paladin who favors Calistria who is heavily vested in the punishing wrongdoers aspects of Paladinhood and happens to be promiscuous in addition to being a great Paladin? What are you losing to have a Paladin who favors Asmodeus for his allowing mortals free will, or sealing away the greatest of evils, or for being a pinnacle of societal organization and the consistency and security that it brings?
Having the occasional oddball doesn't bring the world crashing down, but it does give character options to explore in what would be an otherwise dull and regurgitated set of themes.
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This is of interest to me because it sounds like the sort of thing that I, or someone I know, might be interested in exploring in the future; and because this has far-reaching implications for all characters not just Paladins.
As I mentioned before, religion is something I take into account for most of my characters, even when religion isn't something that is connected to their class features (such as with the aforementioned witch-y character who would implore Gyronna to look upon the badguys, or stay her gaze from those she wished unharmed; and she was raised to be devoted to Gyronna by her aunt who was a very spiteful witch; but the character herself embraced Gyronna in the most positive ways possible, and clung to her as a patron of the fallen and punishment for transgressions).
It's nonsensically limiting in a multitude of ways, and quite immersion breaking. Especially with the line of reasoning used by JJ earlier in the thread where the more devoted you are to a deity the more lawful you are, and the more devoted to only certain aspects of that deity makes you chaotic; as that pretty much ruins gods for everyone, just to try to crush odd corner cases like Paladins who happen to empathize with *insert evil deity* or consider them their god.
And what exactly does that entail, exactly? Who is it hurting? It has no mechanical repercussions. Most classes, including Paladins, don't get any special features for having particular gods. What are you losing with the ability to have a Paladin who favors Calistria who is heavily vested in the punishing wrongdoers aspects of Paladinhood and happens to be promiscuous in addition to being a great Paladin? What are you losing to have a Paladin who favors Asmodeus for his allowing mortals free will, or sealing away the greatest of evils, or for being a pinnacle of societal organization and the consistency and security that it brings?
Having the occasional oddball doesn't bring the world crashing down, but it does give character options to explore...
Because evil-god paladins is the stupidest idea I've ever heard in my life, and I can't believe this topic is still going.
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Because evil-god paladins is the stupidest idea I've ever heard in my life, and I can't believe this topic is still going.
Take your time and use your words. :P
Alignment IS part of the rules, no matter how many people wish it weren't. It's cooked into the system deliberately. If you extract and throw away everything to do with alignment, you're no longer following Pathfinder's rules.
That's correct. It just has little to nothing to do with this subject, as the alignment rules are not what is truly being contested here, because the alignment rules are quite clear. If you're not hurting, oppressing, or killing someone, you aren't doing evil. If you are altruistic, respect the dignity of others, and protect innocent life, you are good.
What god you worship has no direct control over either of those things.
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What god you worship has no direct control over either of those things.
You're reversing cause and effect. If you are altruistic, respect the dignity of others, and protect innocent life, you should have no interest in worshipping an Evil deity.
A paladin living in Westcrown or Egorian might attend services at the Asmodean church. He might even consider Asmodeus a 'lesser evil' than other Evil gods like Urgathoa or Rovagug, since he can at least have an interest in Law. But that doesn't mean he thinks Asmodeus is worth venerating, or that the Church of Asmodeus is spreading a proper way to live.
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RAW, though there is no explicit one-step rule for a paladin, a GM is free to disallow a paladin of Asmodeus via the “association with evil” or “providing help used for evil ends” clauses in the code, depending on how “worship” is defined in that instance. And PFS has its own specific one-step rule, so it really is safe to leave this in “ask your GM about paladins” territory.
I personally feel that this is largely a setting issue. It would be difficult or impossible to have a paladin of an evil god in a setting where deities are concrete and active in the world, require worshippers to follow detailed moral/ethical teachings, or gain power from worship (which can be used by an evil deity for evil ends). In settings where these are not the case, you could see situations more similar to real-world religion where people sometimes cherry-pick teachings or split into sects dedicated to the same deity but with very different behavioral standards or alignments. Eberron is an example of a “distant gods” setting.
No... it means you can't have chaotic paladins, or paladin followers of chaotic creatures. My comments are about paladins only.
A non-paladin doesn't factor into my comments at all.
OBVIOUSLY you can have worshipers of chaotic deities. We do it all the time. They are not and can not be paladins though... which is what this thread's supposed to be asking about.
Feel free to rule thigns differently in home games, of course... but posting and asking them here in a context of "what's right" comes with an implied "What's right for the rules as written/what's right for Golarion."
Please don't use my words talking about why you can't have a Paladin worshiping an evil deity as anything other than paladins not worshiping evil deities, in other words. ;-)
The problem is that if you define worship of an evil deity as an evil act, or "cafeteria" religion as a chaotic act, these things must be evil/chaotic for people other than paladins. For example, if you have a cleric of Iomedae who ignores some of the more lawful aspects of Iomedae, and that is itself chaotic, does that make it impossible for the cleric to maintain a NG alignment? After all, they are committing the chaotic act of “cafeteria religion” (which is by your argument chaotic enough to shift a paladin from LG to NG) while also committing the specific chaotic act, say, of failing to punish a wrongdoer. That's a lot of chaotic acts - enough to make them a CG ex-cleric? Similarly, if worshipping an evil deity is an evil act, then neutral clerics of evil deities would actually have to do a lot of good in order to maintain a neutral alignment while regularly performing the evil act of worshipping an evil god. LN clerics of Amodeus would be either impossible – or they would be nicer people than LN clerics of Abadar!
This is on top of the problem of conversely defining orthodoxy as “lawful” that Ashiel brought up.
Specific parts of the code (like the rule against associating with evil) can be discussed with respect to the paladin only, but alignment in general cannot since paladins aren't the only class that cares about alignment.
Overruled. If you're houseruling out spells like plane shift and contact other planes then you're not longer discussing questions suitable for the "Rules Question" subforum.(which is dumb in a world where gods are real)Objection! Assumption. Not everybody who plays PF plays in worlds where gods are proven to exist.
You can have plane shift without having clear and active deities, simply by saying that the gods don't have established homes on other planes. And contact other plane doesn't necessarily have to put you in contact with a specific entity. You don't even have to contact “a demideity” or “a greater deity” for the spell to work as written - you could simply push yourself deeper into the collective unconscious of Heaven. Again, see Eberron, where the planes (and divine magic) exist but deities are not proven to.
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Having the occasional oddball doesn't bring the world crashing down, but it does give character options to explore in what would be an otherwise dull and regurgitated set of themes.
That is completely irrelevant to whether the rules allow it or not. Besides JJs explanation, which you are oversimplifying, is the fact that the rules specifically stipulate that paladins can't freely associate with someone who violates the paladin's moral code. This restriction even goes so far as to stipulate that a paladin can't accept someone as a mere henchman who is not lawful good. It is preposterous to argue that the paladin's choice of body servant is more restrictive than his choice of deity to serve.
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What god you worship has no direct control over either of those things.You're reversing cause and effect. If you are altruistic, respect the dignity of others, and protect innocent life, you should have no interest in worshipping an Evil deity.
A paladin living in Westcrown or Egorian might attend services at the Asmodean church. He might even consider Asmodeus a 'lesser evil' than other Evil gods like Urgathoa or Rovagug, since he can at least have an interest in Law. But that doesn't mean he thinks Asmodeus is worth venerating, or that the Church of Asmodeus is spreading a proper way to live.
But people do so all the time. There are a lot of people who are spiritual, and religious, but ignore the aspects of their religion that they don't like or don't agree with (usually for good reasons). For better or worse, that's how religion works. On the downside it creates splinter-sects and conflict between the faithful, on the upside, it discourages stagnation and leads to new ideas and hopefully a better society.
Changing the world starts at home.
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On the downside it creates splinter-sects and conflict between the faithful, on the upside, it discourages stagnation and leads to new ideas and hopefully a better society.
Sounds chaotic to me.
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There are a lot of people who are spiritual, and religious, but ignore the aspects of their religion that they don't like or don't agree with (usually for good reasons). For better or worse, that's how religion works. On the downside it creates splinter-sects and conflict between the faithful, on the upside, it discourages stagnation and leads to new ideas and hopefully a better society.
I think the real world is different from a Pathfinder world in that in the Pathfinder world the Gods objectively exist and can be contacted via magic, and can express their displeasure by stripping clerics of their powers.
Let put it this way: A paladin who worships Asmodeus is using one or more of the following words wrong: 'paladin', 'worship', or 'Asmodeus'.
If he's cherrypicking his beliefs, such as ignoring the fact that Asmodeus is a cruel God who endorses cruelty, then he isn't really worshipping 'Asmodeus'. (This is the category that laypeople who misunderstand they god they worship fall into.) Edit: This is the inverse of "a rose by any other name". If it doesn't smell like a rose, you can call it a rose all you like, but that does't make it a rose.
If he's just paying lip service (as opposed to actually believing in the Asmodean message), then he isn't really 'worshipping'.
Otherwise, he isn't really a paladin: He's an antipaladin, a warpriest, an inqusitor, a militant cleric, a devout fighter, or something along those lines with a LN or LE alignment.
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Ross, generally agree with you, but I think there are two things you're glossing over that could make interesting stories:
First, a paladin (or other good character) who worships "Asmodeus" could be really interesting. For example, upthread someone suggested a paladin raised by a LN cleric to believe that Asmodeus is a LN deity. Even if this paladin later came in contact with LE Asmodeans, I could see him or her trying to reform this “misguided” group in the same way that a paladin of Abadar might try to convince worshippers of Abadar that they should all be LG or at least LN instead of LE. It might take a committed paladin quite some time to realize that the actual deity is LE and it isn't just a city “perverting” his lawful teachings to evil ends. Asmodeus, being a schemer and corrupter, might even find it useful to encourage such a paladin in the interest of good PR or getting rid of some demons. Or he might find the paladin annoying but unlike with a heretical LG cleric, he can't strip the paladin's powers. Either way, good fun RP.
Second, there are forms of "worship" between lip service and whole-hearted priestly devotion that could be interesting to explore. This is less suited to a paladin since they tend to be the whole-hearted type but is still valid for good characters like Ashiel's witch.
You could for example seek to emulate part of a deity's portfolio, as with LG Hellknights who legitimately respect and emulate Asmodean order and perhaps even ambition but without treading upon the less fortunate. You could have a genuine cultural/familial attachment to a religion much like you would have for "black sheep" sibling or parent; while you admit that the deity is morally deficient you still see positive aspects, find comfort in associated rituals, and may find it difficult to excise this part of your identity. Either character might morally justify their worship by arguing it is foolish to throw out the positive aspects of the deity along with the evil portion of their portfolio*, by aiming to appease the deity's wrath or turn the religion against greater evils, and/or by performing many greater good deeds in an attempt to compensate for whatever harm might be done by your association with the evil church. This is particularly easy if you're on your own or a member of a neutral community worshipping an evil deity, since the evilness of the deity will be if not ignored, less salient in everyday life.
*EDIT: Particularly valid if in a campaign with fewer deities in which there's not a "good version" of the evil deity. For example, in a friend of mine's current campaign setting there is only one deity associated with courage, fortitude, and "grit" - and it is CE.
Worshiping an evil god is a voluntary evil act.Citation, please?
Evil is hurting, oppressing, or killing. Worship is not any of those things.
This is completely my own opinion but I sincerely believe that even LN clerics of Asmodeus are committing an evil act by promoting his worship and pursuing his goals.
This stems from my belief that an Evil deity is likely going to want you to do specific stuff. So while it may look pretty neutral or even mainly lawful, Asmodeus himself is Lawful Evil. He is going to have some kind of Evil plan at the end of the day. And he probably wouldn't grant your cleric powers unless he had some kind of plan in mind that the Cleric was furthering. Which again circles back to Asmodeus is evil and wants evil things to come to fruition.
But ultimately this is just my opinion and pretty much what the Separatist Cleric was made for so grain of salt and all that jazz.
And I'm still waiting for my Grayguard equivalent Paizo.
It occurs to me that the paladin doesn't have access to either the game books or the GM's notes. They won't necessarily know that a particular deity is evil. Mythology being what it is, almost any alignment can be justified for most gods, depending upon which stories you consider to be the most significant.
Actually they do. Knowledge:Religion is a class skill for them. And 'is Asmodeus evil' would be a PRETTY easy skill check.
First, a paladin (or other good character) who worships "Asmodeus" could be really interesting. For example, upthread someone suggested a paladin raised by a LN cleric to believe that Asmodeus is a LN deity. Even if this paladin later came in contact with LE Asmodeans, I could see him or her trying to reform this “misguided” group in the same way that a paladin of Abadar might try to convince worshippers of Abadar that they should all be LG or at least LN instead of LE. It might take a committed paladin quite some time to realize that the actual deity is LE and it isn't just a city “perverting” his lawful teachings to evil ends. Asmodeus, being a schemer and corrupter, might even find it useful to encourage such a paladin in the interest of good PR or getting rid of some demons. Or he might find the paladin annoying but unlike with a heretical LG cleric, he can't strip the paladin's powers. Either way, good fun RP.
The thing I don't like about this type of story... is it makes a class with a poorly deserved reputation for being 'Lawful Stupid' into being... well.. REALLY stupid.
If he's LG and preaching about how awesome the LE god is... despite whatever logic and everyone else tells him... then he's being REALLY stupid. I'm not a fan of the idea of 'Oh yeah... the Paladin is totally wrong... lets all laugh at his foolishness' type stories.
I'd like to think that between his Class Skills and common sense he SHOULD know WHAT he's worshiping...
Paladin/Antipaladin Code: Not all gods allow paladins
among their faithful, but for those who do, this sidebar
provides a sample code that a holy warrior of the faith
would follow. Individual paladins may vary somewhat in
terms of which aspects of a god's tenets they prioritize
highest, and two paladins of the same faith may still have
differing interpretations on how best to implement a
god's divine mandates. If a god instead has antipaladins
(Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 118), their code is
listed in this sidebar.
I just wanted to throw the bold section out there(and to my knowledge, there are no Antipaladins of Asmodeus, so there's no code for them). So if there was a paladin of Asmodeus, he could prioritze the lawful nature of Asmodeus' divine mandates over his evil ones.
Knowledge:Religion does not give a character GM knowledge. Religious specialists can and do disagree about a great many things. If there are conflicting stories or ideas about a particular god, it won't give the character any special insight as to which ones, if any, are the truth. Plus, having it as a class skill does not mean that they put any skill points into it; their bonus could still be pretty low.Knowing that Asmodeus is evil might be an easy check in canon Golarion, but the same can not be said about all evil deities in all campaign worlds.
Actually it does give GM knowledge.. just like all the other knowledge:XXX skills that tell you what you need to know about the various monsters.
It's given as a class skill BECAUSE they are meant to take points in it... As a Paladin, SOME knowledge of your god SHOULD be mandatory.
As a paladin player I fully understand they don't have enough ponts for MANY ranks in it... but one point will give you a score 4... +INT...
There may be various sects and heretics running about... but paladins should be able to tell fact from fiction. They have the knowledge:Religion, Sense motive, immunity to charms... DETECT EVIL... They are REALLY designed around the idea that they aren't 'fooled' by such simple con artists.
There is required a MASSIVE suspension of Disbelief to buy into a character who just 'didn't know' that their god was Evil all along...
Why would anyone devote themselves to the following of a god without knowing what they stood for? Some mysterious deity that nobody has heard anything about?
May be fun for an archaeologist or a historian type who wants to learn more... but for the fully devoted paladin to pledge himself to.... meh, Something...??
I don't know... I wouldn't enjoy watching that character play out.
So, here's a thought:
The Paladin's code does allow Paladins to align with lesser evils to defeat a greater one. While Asmodeus is undeniably evil, one could make the case that he's the lesser evil compared to the likes of Lamashtu and Rogavug. Asmodeus is very into the pragmatic evil position of not letting anyone destroy the world, even if it's only so his minions can conquer it later.
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@LazarX - you assume that a paladin has to have the same strength of connection to their deity as a cleric does, but this is not the case. Paladins by the standard rules are not empowered by a deity, as JJ described above. While many do serve a deity with complete devotion, and surrender their entire lives and souls to that deity, this goes above and beyond the core requirement, which is complete devotion to the code. There is nothing preventing a paladin from worshipping a deity in the same way that most laypeople worship a deity - with ritual, deep respect and some level of emulation, but without complete surrender or necessarily agreeing with everything the deity says or does.
And there is no escaping the fact that Asmodeus despite whatever tendencies he may have for Law is EVIL. Evil with a capital E. Eviil as in Master of Masters of Evil.
Master of Masters of Evil is not one of Asmodeus' titles. Neither is Master of Evil, or Ruler of Evil, Prince of Evil, etc. Prince of Law is. (He also has 7 titles relating to Devils or Hell, but that doesn't mean he's more Evil than Lawful; refer to the Hellknights.)
And it's been stated TWICE that th at passage is AN ERROR. So please stop citing it.For what it is worth on the argument.This is the section from Council of Theives, Chapter 5, Mother of Flies pgs 65-66
Military Orders & Paladins
** spoiler omitted **...
Sure, it's not Golarion cannon. Doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Even says that Asmodean paladins would be (1) very rare (2) possibly not empowered by Asmodeus (3) bound to fall unless they died promptly. Sounds about right to me.
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Or, on the gripping hand, if I worshipped Asmodeus, I'd make the best choice for law, and the best choice for good by simply ignoring the evil aspects of Asmodeus. We've already accepted "cafeteria Sarenraeism," where I get to pick and choose the aspects of the deity I like. Why not cafeteria Asmodeanism?
But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.
"Cafeteria Asmodism" woulud be lawful neutral or neutral evil. That's basically the "one step from your deity" situation. Note that neither of those are lawful good.
This seems like it would apply too to a paladin who grew up in a Cult of the Dawnflower society where the church preached imperialism and that slavery is normal.
Such a LG paladin who worships Sarenrae but ignores those church teachings to focus on the good of Sarenrae will be doing chaotic acts and not acting in a lawful manner and thus would drift away from lawful good to neutral good. And then would no longer be a paladin.