Hello everyone, after reading through the recent Mystic Theurge thread, of course, I had to try my hand at making a Mystic Theurge that could perform well at high levels, and I'd appreciate it if you could provide feedback.
For reference, here's the other thread
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r9zd?Mystic-Theurge-why-the-hype
To enter quickly into the class, I'll be taking 3 levels in wizard with the Air school and a bonded ring and 3 levels in separatist cleric of Nethys, with the Exploration and Defense subdomains before entering into the prestige class until they finish and return to wizard.
I'll be using a Sylph with the Like the Wind and Breeze Kissed Breezes alternate characteristics, and will be taking the standard Magical Knack trait to keep my wizard caster level at 19 by level 20.
His feats are as follows: 1-Improved Initiative(If low dex), 3-Craft Wondrous Item, 5-Airy Step, 7-Theurgy, 9-Wings of Air, 11-Extend Spell
Now I know that some of my choices may appear suboptimal, like the bonded object and my domain choices, so let me explain. I chose the bonded ring rather than a familiar for a few reasons. First, this character will barely gain access to level 9 wizard spells, and this will provide him with another level 9 spell slot. In addition, the familiar will not scale with Mystic Theurge levels, which will keep it extremely fragile and means that it won't be eligible for Improved Familiar. My domain choices are driven by a few things, Defense is fairly obvious, I'm looking to stay survivable despite my low hit dice, and Exploration provides a few cool benefits, like being able to see through doors and boosting my speed by another 10, up to 45. This means that when I gain a fly speed at level 9, my speed will be 45 rather than 30.
Thank you in advance for your help.
It might be worth getting a spell-like ability in order to get you earlier access to the MT class generally. Having to take 3 levels of each base class is going to kill spell progression generally - you won't get access to third level spells until Character Level 8 - not good. The reason the class has had a renaissance recently is the permitting of SLAs to act as prerequisites. Only needing 1 level of your minor class is what makes MT so appealing now.
There are a number of ways to do this. The simplest is probably choosing the Trickery Domain as a cleric. There are a number of gods that allow this: Calistria and Sun Wukong for CN, Nivi Rhombodazzle and Sivanah for N, Picoperi and Skrymir for CG etc. If you take the Trickery domain you get Copycat (basically a divine mirror image) that qualifies you for MT with only a single cleric level(!). The Fate Inquisition (available to clerics) also qualifies you. Alternately you could use Wizard schools or Racial SLAs to do similar things.
TL;DR - Wizard 3/Cleric 3 is wrongbadfun, or just quite frustrating to actually level as.
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Hit point are 1/2 masters and hit dice refers to character level. You could get a flier and deliver touch spells.
Early entry is the only way to fly.
I'd also choose one arcane or divine to be spontaneous. So you can heal or harm. Eg sorcerer cleric to use lv2 sor sslots for clw etc. Having bith sides memmed means you cant flip.
Thank you guys very much for your comments. Unfortunately, my DM doesn't let SLAs count as prerequisites, so I'm stuck with earliest possible entry at 7th level. This is also why I've chosen to stick with two prepared classes, to enter as soon as possible. I know that the beginning levels would suck, but if I played this character it would be to replace someone in a higher level campaign, which would somewhat mitigate that hurt.
With that said, if I began the campaign at a higher level, would this build be effective?
Splitting 3/3/X is ultimately always going to hurt quite a lot. It does depend what you want from the character though.
If you really like the flavor and can accept that mechanically a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10 is going to take a really long time to get going, then okay. If you want to be able to cast a mixture of Arcane spells but also heal and do condition removal then it might be worth considering a Healing Patron Witch instead. The Witch isn't quite as rounded in terms of buffing but is a lot more offensively capable.
My hype has spread. Muwhaaa
My hype has spread. Muwhaaa
It was your hype that started it all, thanks for bringing my attention to such an awesome prestige class.
I don't think it'll hurt that badly. I'll end up with 7th level cleric spells and 9th level wizard spells, so I'll have quite a bit of utility. I do have to avoid save or suck spells from the cleric list, but like I said, if I start at high levels then I think it could work. I wouldn't serve as a healer, but could perfectly fill the role of a buffer and a blaster with the best spells from both lists.
It does depend what level you start. Starting a very high level makes it more possible. You will still gain access to new spells 3 levels behind a pure caster though, which is quite a big thing.
To me, the big draw of the early-entry Mystic Theurge is the flexibility for the relatively small 1-level delay in gaining spells. A very acceptable opportunity cost. Anything more than that and personally, I'd make a different choice.
It would help to know a number of other factors though:
What levels will you be playing the character from and to?
What specific roles do you want to fill?
What is the rest of the party composition?
I praise your GM for prohibiting early entry SLA's. Shows he knows the rules better than those who wrote the FAQ ruling. It puzzles me to this day that this ruling hasn't yet been reversed. Call me a bitter old fart or whatever you like, but early entry Mystic theurge is just stupidly broken. I have no words for it.
To the OP, your character sounds magnificent. Don't let others get to you. You may not have the most powerful spells or the highest chance to hit, but you've got a ton of spells at your disposal, and if you focus on no-save spells and buffs you will be superduper. Also, you'll never run out of spells. Ever.
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early entry Mystic theurge is just stupidly broken. I have no words for it.
Early entry Mystic Theurge it's what makes it not a dowgrade. Remember that you still lose class features for it
It's unlikely that I'll actually play this character, I was just wondering if in theory it would work. So what it looks like is that I should only use this build if I'm beginning at a high level and if the rest of the party needs a caster of this type.
I must recommend strongly against playing a non-early entry Mystic Theurge at all as they are physically painful to play. The only possible way it could work is if you were using Eclectic/Esoteric Training and even then I would recommend an Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle or Razmiran Priest Sorcerer instead.
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Early entry Mystic Theurge it's what makes it not a dowgrade. Remember that you still lose class features for it
Yes! You give up some mostly minor class features, but what do you get in return?
You get twice as many spells known and have almost twice the amount daily spells to cast and have access to both the biggest/baddest spell-lists. You can use more slots from one class or the other as you like. I think being one or more spell levels behind in each class is completely fair for what you get in return.
Even if your spells are weaker and have a lower DC than a full-level character, you'll hardly ever run out of spells. You'll be casting 1st to 3rd level spells most of the time anyway... and there's plenty of good spells in that range for every spellcasting class, considering even the lowered efficiency and hit-potency of each spell.
The extra spells you can prepare per day should be able to make up for the loss of class features like Channel Energy and one or two wizard bonus feats. If you pick your domains and wizard school wisely you'll actually still have some good class abilities and you won't be needing the 8th level school/domain powers.
Mystic Theurge is all about spells, spells, spells. You have to know all the spells and find the best combinations. Focus on spells that either buff your allies or that have no saves, and get some Metamagic Rods for when you really need them.
Like I said before, being spell levels behind is only fair.
An early entry mystic theurge abusing the FAQ is just broken compared to a single class full spellcaster. Not only that, they can only be done with silly race and domain combinations that make for really stupid characters. You can try to justify them all you want by roleplaying but everyone knows the character was built by a munchkin. Maybe that's a bit harsh but I think it's true.
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Titan, at what actual level do you imagine a non-early entry MT competing with a straight wizard? Remember that being 3 levels behind means you also get less spells for each class as well as lower-level ones.
If you're 8th level say, a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MT 2 has (counting domain, school and an assumed 1 spell/level from stat) 6 3rd and 8 2nd level spells/day. A wizard 8 with the same setup has 4 4th, 5 3rd and 5 2nd level spells. That's the same number of spells higher than 1st level - and 1st level spells are dirt cheap via items at this level. Your MT does not have more spells/day.
The extra flexibility is the advantage of the MT and even that is problematic due to the higher level spells of the single-classed wizard (and probably better-filled spellbook) giving them more spells to choose from.
I do think the SLA qualification tears at the suspension of disbelief a little but it is in no way unbalanced.
early entry Mystic theurge is just stupidly broken. I have no words for it.Early entry Mystic Theurge it's what makes it not a dowgrade. Remember that you still lose class features for it
The basic problem with mystic theurge is that non-early entry versions are extremely poor unless it is acting as backup wizard and backup cleric - and witches and oracles and bards do that better. Whereas early entry makes it better in many campaigns than a straight wizard or a caster cleric (not both at once) and feels very cheesy. The most balanced version might be one with 2 levels of each base class, but that isn't in the rules.
If you're 8th level say, a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MT 2 has (counting domain, school and an assumed 1 spell/level from stat) 6 3rd and 8 2nd level spells/day. A wizard 8 with the same setup has 4 4th, 5 3rd and 5 2nd level spells. That's the same number of spells higher than 1st level - and 1st level spells are dirt cheap via items at this level. Your MT does not have more spells/day.
A clr3/wiz3/mt2 can cast 35 spells per day in total, assuming he has at least a 16 in both his casting stats, and is a specialist wizard.
A wizard 8 (specialist) can cast 25 spells per day.
So...
Yes he does, at that level, the MT can cast 10 more spells per day without the need of any items whatsoever, dirt cheap or not. 4 of those are cantrips/orisons, so okay, not a big deal. The wizard obviously gets another class feature and 1 more feat at this point, and has a higher spell level. This seems pretty fair to me, given the extra versatility the MT has been given for giving up the higher level spells.
I'm not saying a non-early MT is broken at all. I think it's pretty fair and yea there's the pain of going through the first 6-7 levels but hey, you get to be more awesome in the med-higher levels overall imho.
What I'm trying to get at is that an Aasimar clr1/wiz3 is 2 levels LESS behind, and that makes them overpowered to me.
Titan, at what actual level do you imagine a non-early entry MT competing with a straight wizard?
As I mentioned earlier, I'm intending to only play this character if one of my current characters dies at a high level. In fact, this build wouldn't be that far behind on wizard spells. They would still gain one level 9 spell per day, in addition to another from their bonded ring and one more from their arcane school, which is still behind the level 20 wizard, but not by much. Casting with a level 19 caster level, their saves would be competitive with any wizard and their spellcasting would be much more versatile, as in addition to having every level of wizard spells, they would also have level 6 cleric spells at their disposal.
I think that this particular build would have about the same power as a wizard at high levels, and it would really come down to who has initiative first.That said, I understand that when placed against a level 20 wizard, he wouldn't be as effective, but he's meant to be much more versatile while still maintaining some degree of effectiveness.
EDITED: For clarity of reference () and to finish a sentence ().
Diminutive Titan, I'm sorry, but I'm not entirely sure where your numbers are coming from?
25 pt buy: 16 in two, 5 pts left-over nets a 13 and a 12; nice
20 pt buy: 16 in two, 10 in all others (unless you start getting into 9s, 8s, or 7s to buy up to 13s); uh... not nice
15 pt buy: 16 in two is not possible; hence, 16 in one, 14 in one, and 10 in all else (presuming no 'reduce to 7' work, as noted above), or a +2 racial bonus.
Note that all of the above builds lack survive-ability.
But... okay, yeah, with a +2 racial bonus in one score, by 8th level, you can have two 16s under 15 pt buy. Okay, cool: you won't have much of anything else, but you can certainly make that happen. (You can more easily make this happen in 20 pt. buy... but not that much easier, and the things I'm about to talk about below still apply equally to both.)
Now, under the same paradigm, let's presume that another caster (wizard, since we're doing that) just goes for straight Intelligence. The highest he can get is 17 under a 15 pt buy, but that extra +2 racial (since we're presuming the MT has the same benefits for this purpose) nets him a 19. Nice! By 8th level, he's got a 21. We don't really care what the other stat is, but, for the sake of 'fairness' (?) we'll put it in a non-casting/non-important stat, just to make his life suck like the mystic theurge.
With 16s, you get 1 each bonus 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells. That nets you a total of 6 extra spells per day. That's... quite decent!
With a 21, you get 2 extra 1st level, and 1 each of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. That nets you... oh, look 6 extra spells per day! Nice! (Though you can't actually use the 5th level slot... yet.)
With a 5th level cleric caster level (3 lvls of cleric, 2 of mystic theurge), you get 3+d 1st lvl, 2+d 2nd level, and 1+d 3rd lvl.
With a 5th level wizard caster level (3 levels of wizard, 2 of mystic theurge), you get 3+s 1st lvl, 2+s 2nd lvl, and 1+s 3rd lvl.
So: 1st lvl (3c+d+3w+s+1a = 9), 2nd (2c+d+2w+s+1a = 7), 3rd (1c+d+1w+s+1a = 5).
That's 9+7+5 = 16+5 = 21.
Uh... wait... my calculations seem to be somewhat off for 35?
Oh, well, okay, let's presume that the extra 14 spell slots exist: I'm very likely wrong somewhere after all, being dyslexic and ADD and having a toddler to take care of! Early mistakes can make quite a difference in math, as does missing some trick build or specialized something to net other bonuses! ()
So, uh, anyway, the 8th level wizard will have 4+s+2a 1st lvl, 3+s+1a 2nd lvl, 3+s+1a 3rd lvl, and 2+s+1a 4th lvl.
That's going to be 4+s+2a+3+s+1a+3+s+1a+2+s+1a = 12+4+5 = 16+9 = 25.
So... uh... so far, going with really common builds and basic system knowledge, you've got the wizard having more spell slots. I'm pretty sure I've got to be missing something, though, in terms of either basic math error or niche build.
The other benefits include the fact that the wizard has access to 4th level spells (compared to the MT's 3rd level), has an extra +2 to all DCs without any sort of feat investment, and has full access to his class features.
He lacks? Uh... channel energy (2d6, 3/day), and aura of his god's alignment, his first level domain powers (6/day each presuming WIS+3/day, 3 rnds per day if rnds/day, and 3 min/day, presuming min/day), and four orisons; also proficiency with armor (which he can't wear 'cause wizard) and some weapons. So... good stuff, but not really all that potent.
That's presuming no feat investment, no particular traits, no equipment, and so on. The single-stat/single-class caster obviously has an advantage in terms of equipment as well, as his equipment purchases (presuming pouring everything into spellcasting) work on all of his spells instead of some of them. Also, the mystic theurge has to purchase all of his spells instead of gaining them on level-up (see FAQ/Editor's Note).
Oh! Oh!
hit points, skill points, and class basics!
MYSTIC THEURGE
Hit Points: 8 + 2*(4.5) + 5*(3.5) = 17.5+9+8 = 34
Skills: (2 class + 3 INT)*8 = 5*8 = 40 total
Base Attack: +2 cleric, +1 wizard, +1 mt = +4
Fortitude: +3 cleric, +1 wizard, +1 mt = +5
Reflex: +1 cleric, +1 wizard, +1 mt = +3
Will: +3 cleric, +3 wizard, +1 mt = +7
PURE WIZARD
Hit Points: 6 + 7*(3.5) = 30
Skills: (2 class + 5 INT)*8 = 7*8 = 54 total
Base Attack: +4
Fortitude: +2
Reflex: +2
Will: +6
So the MT does have better hit points (four), and better saves (by 1 point; ) at this level; but he lacks 14 skill points ().
So... I'm not currently seeing a benefit to playing a mystic theurge, compared to a straight caster. A witch would be even better due to hexes, though it would lack one additional spell per level per day, comparatively (meaning it only has 21 spells instead of the wizard's 25).
EDIT: I forgot! The wizard gets favored class bonuses... and the mystic theurge does not. That's an optional +1 hit point or +1 skill point per level, regardless of race, or a bonus depending on racial choice. Anything except a half-elf would have only three levels in a favored class in mystic theurge compared to eight levels for the wizard. A half-elf would get six levels. This difference only increases over time, though, as the mystic theurge levels can never count as a a favored class.
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I mentioned this in the other thread but figured it's appropriate here as well :)
Folks looking to play a mystic theurge right from 1st level might want to check out the Theurge base class contained in the
New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press
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With a 5th level cleric caster level (3 lvls of cleric, 2 of mystic theurge), you get 3+d 1st lvl, 2+d 2nd level, and 1+d 3rd lvl. Note: I'm actually unsure - do you continue to gain domain spells/domain spell-slots with cleric casting but no cleric levels? I'd presume so... but I've been proven wrong on such presumptions before.
With a 5th level wizard caster level (3 levels of wizard, 2 of mystic theurge), you get 3+s 1st lvl, 2+s 2nd lvl, and 1+s 3rd lvl.
So: 1st lvl (3c+d+3w+s+1a = 9), 2nd (2c+d+2w+s+1a = 7), 3rd (1c+d+1w+s+1a = 5).
That's 9+7+5 = 16+5 = 21.
I actually got to 24 total spells for the theurge.
Wizard
1st level: 3 from level, 1 from school, 1 from stat (5 total)
2nd level: 2 from level, 1 from school, 1 from stat (4 total)
3rd level: 1 from level, 1 from school, 1 from stat (3 total)
With the Cleric's spells mirroring that, just with domain spells instead of school spells. Ends up as: 5w + 5c + 4w + 4c + 3w + 3w = 10 + 8 + 6 = 24 vs. the 25 of the pure Wizard.
But even with that, and counting orisons/cantrips (a total of 8 more spells; but why on Earth would we count these?), the MT is sitting at 32 (still not 35) and the pure Wizard is at 29. Barely ahead at all, and they have lower level spells, worse saving throws on their spells, and less Wizard spell access due to not getting ones from leveling. Plus the other stuff you mentioned, too.
Ah! Thanks! I know where I went wrong, now: I added only one ability slot per day instead of two in my final calculations.
Cool: I knew I was missing something. Still, yeah, that's a bit of a strange distance.
The 8 0th level (cantrips and orisons) is... well, I suppose that could be something that got counted. That would bend things more in the MT's favor of number of spells available, though I'm not really sure that they should be counted as spells so much as spell-like ability perks, but I could see that being one point of accounting difference.
Okay, so I didn't count those, and Diminutive Titan probably did, plus my lack of the other casting stat's daily bonuses accounts for a lot of the difference.
Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 2
This mystic theurge has 34 spells per day with 16 Int and Wis, school specialization and a bonded object.
Wizard:
lvl0 - 4 spells, + 1 school spell
lvl1 - 3 spells, + 1 bonus spell due to high Int, + 1 school spell
lvl2 - 2 spells, + 1 bonus spell due to high Int, + 1 school spell
lvl3 - 1 spell, + 1 bonus spell due to high Int, + 1 school spell
+ 1 extra spell because of bonded object
Cleric:
lvl0 - 4 spells
lvl1 - 3 spells, + 1 domain spell +1 bonus spell due to high Wis
lvl2 - 2 spells, + 1 domain spell +1 bonus spell due to high Wis
lvl3 - 1 spell, + 1 domain spell +1 bonus spell due to high Wis
Total:
4 + 1 + 4 = 9 lvl 0 spells
3 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 10 lvl 1 spells
2 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 8 lvl 2 spells
1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6 lvl 3 spells
+ 1 bonded object spell
totals: 9 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 1 = 34 spells
Yes, it depends on the build, and my previous '35' was incorrect it should be '34'
The pure wizard, specialist and bonded object, assuming 18 Int, gets:
4 + 1 school = 5 lvl 0 spells
4 + 1 high Int + 1 school = 6 lvl 1 spells
3 + 1 high Int + 1 school = 5 lvl 2 spells
3 + 1 high Int + 1 school = 5 lvl 3 spells
2 + 1 high Int + 1 school = 4 lvl 4 spells
+1 bonded object spell
totals: 5 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 1 = 26
My previous calculation was 1 off at both characters.
Obviously, with lower casting stats and fewer high level spells the MT will fall short to the full wizard.
However, I'd like to see a similar comparison with the most munchkinny, mega powerplayed min-maxed early-entry MT you can think of...
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Couldn't resist:
Variant/blooded Aasimar, whom has a 2nd level spell as a SLA, can become a Mystic Theurge at level 5, because:
The racial SLA counts as a 2nd level arcane spell
You'll still need 3 ranks in Kn(religion) and Kn(arcane) but that'll only take 3 levels of Cleric.
And sadly you'll still have to take a level of sorcerer or wizard because otherwise you won't have a class to progress in during MT. So Clr3/Wiz1 it is.
There ya go, MT at lvl5
That means at lvl 8 this character is a
lvl 7 cleric and lvl 5 wizard in terms of spellcasting
okay that means, assuming school spec. and bonded object and high stat:
lvl0 - 4 + 1
lvl1 - 3 + 1 + 1
lvl2 - 2 + 1 + 1
lvl3 - 1 + 1 + 1
+ 1 bonded object = 5 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 1 = 18 wizard spells per day
and
lvl0 - 4
lvl1 - 4 + 1 + 1
lvl2 - 3 + 1 + 1
lvl3 - 2 + 1 + 1
lvl4 - 1 + 1 + 1
= 4 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 3 = 22 cleric spells per day
That totals 40 spells per day
A level 8 full wizard has only 26 spells per day, assuming school specialization and bonded object, maybe 28 if he has superduper high Int.
And so they say:
Yeah but the full wiz can cast 2 more 4th level spells,
Yeah but the full wiz gets to cast 5th level spells the next level.
Yeah but the full wiz gets an extra feat and a nifty minor class feature.
And I will say:
Sure, i'll trade my cleric spell level progression for a sorcerer progression any day if it gives me A 5TH-LEVEL-WIZARD WORTH OF SPELLS IN MY BACK POCKET.
HELLO??! Why am I still shouting in the dark alone on this matter??!
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A more realistic comparison would be to eliminate cantrips/orisons from the counts, because at 8th level, those are extremely niche at best. That drops the MT to 25 vs. 21 for the pure Wizard (4w + 1s + 2i 1st level, 3w + 1s + 1i 2nd level, 3w + 1s + 1i 3rd level, 2w + 1s + 1i 4th level because a 20 Int by 8th level for a single-stat caster is not at all unreasonable). That puts the Mystic Theurge at 4 spells total ahead, but the Wizard (or Cleric, or any other single-class caster) is a full spell level ahead, and next level goes to two spell levels ahead. The Wizard's DCs are all higher, spells last longer, has more spell access due to getting spells from leveling, etc.
The Mystic Theurge has a really cool flavor and can still be a fine character, but the Wizard is going to be more powerful. If you let the MT use SLAs, you end up with being a little behind and can't progress your school powers (or domain powers, hexes, etc.), but you gain some minor casting from a second class. This can be enough to make it worthwhile depending on what you're looking for.
However, you seem to be getting a bit aggressive over this, so I'm not going to worry about it anymore.
HELLO??! Why am I still shouting in the dark alone on this matter??!
... probably because you're shouting instead of actually having a reasonable discourse? And I really don't know what it's like where you're typing, but from where I am (my living room), it's fairly well lit.
The etc. of The Vulture's post () also handle spell resistance better, and have more effects: the loss of caster levels under the standard paradigm hinders a caster more than you seem to be allowing.
5th level caster: 5d6 damage (), 600 ft range, d20+5 v. SR or on Concentration checks, and 5*<time increment> duration
8th level caster: 8d6 (, 720 ft range, d20+8 v. SR or on Concentration checks, and 8*<time increment> duration
Those are substantial differences due to caster level. Then you've got the lower DCs, and the over-all more lackluster stats, the requirement of focusing on multiple status instead of singular stats (unless you're playing an oracle/sorcerer/MT, which has its own drawbacks) and multiple different caster-focused items. All of this weakens your character.
For comparison, let's look at one class that gets the highest number of martial attacks in the game: the monk.
Just look at that flurry of blows. Sure, his attack bonus is kind of lame if you're not doing much, but when you flurry? Oh man! He gets a fake best attack bonus plus fake two-weapon-fighting (and later even more bonuses from that) effect! You can stack haste (like with any martial), and there may even be ways to give him more attacks! Holy friggin' cow! The guy just doesn't stop!
... but there's a reason that it's often called "flurry of misses" - because lots of attacks are great, but they're weak, and the amount that they connect is relatively rare, compared to classes that don't have that feature or focus.
Then there's the fact that the monk doesn't "need" equipment: he gets his WIS bonus to AC (which doesn't compare to actual armor), can hit unarmed like a truck (presuming the truck is standing still), and has all sorts of great movement bonuses (that don't synchronize very well with his other abilities - i.e. at all). His spell resistance usually means that it's harder for his allies to buff him, and his spell-like abilities are weak and either hinder his ability to attack well or don't do much as they target the most commonly high save (or save that most things are immune to) in the game.
The fact that the monk gains a ton of things he can do doesn't really mean much, given that all of those things are sub-par. This is one of the reasons the monk is generally considered weaker than other classes - some can use it to great effect, but many cannot. It requires multiple attributes, and doesn't use them all well.
Now, the mystic theurge gains casting, which is notably stronger than martial ability (in theory), but it gains it poorly and in a manner that doesn't synchronize very well with itself.
Casting's great. Casting that gives you less bonuses with shorter duration becomes substantially less valuable as time goes on. Especially as a mystic theurge needs to buy stuff to split between their casting classes. This is unfortunate and actively hampers their ability to do stuff. They go from SAD to MAD... which is a step down in power. It weakens spellcasting in every area of that spellcasting... which is a tremendous step down in power.
It would be like a 10 level prestige class for Fighter-class characters that gives them a d8, moderate base attack bonus, poor fortitude and will, good reflex, and 2+ skills for... half a dozen more feats (that can't require any prerequisites; gained at 1st level, and every even numbered level thereafter) and +1 on their Bravery per level. The feats are nice (and they get more than a standard fighter! ... technically!), and the bonus to bravery caps out at +10 which is double the standard full 20th level fighter bonus... but nobody would care because the costs are simply far too high in terms of everything that makes the fighter a fighter. Heck, go ahead and throw in ranger spellcasting (but no other ranger class features) that key off of wisdom, and it might actually be worth it (providing some healing and other nice bonuses)... but likely not.
EDIT: Also, counting the cantrip and orison slots are kind of like counting the fact that Fighters gain proficiency with Wooden Stakes , Hook Hands , Heavy Maces , and Boarding Pikes because they have "all simple weapons": nice, certainly, but... 'meh' in the over-all scheme of things?
It would be like a 10 level prestige class for Fighter-class characters that gives them a d8, moderate base attack bonus, poor fortitude and will, good reflex, and 2+ skills for... half a dozen more feats (that can't require any prerequisites; gained at 1st level, and every even numbered level thereafter) and +1 on their Bravery per level. The feats are nice (and they get more than a standard fighter! ... technically!), and the bonus to bravery caps out at +10 which is double the standard full 20th level fighter bonus... but nobody would care because the costs are simply far too high in terms of everything that makes the fighter a fighter. Heck, go ahead and throw in ranger spellcasting (but no other ranger class features) that key off of wisdom, and it might actually be worth it (providing some healing and other nice bonuses)... but likely not.
Just for fun.
Prerequisites:
- Base Attack Bonus: +4
- Special: bravery +1, and armor training (any)d8, 2+ skills
moderate BAB
Good reflex
Poor fortitude and willSkill List: Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Level: Special
- 1st: bonus feat, mighty brave there, fella
- 2nd: bonus feat
- 3rd: -
- 4th: bonus feat
- 5th: -
- 6th: bonus feat
- 7th: -
- 8th: bonus feat
- 9th: -
- 10th: bonus featBonus Feat: The Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered gain a bonus feat at first level and each even numbered level after the first. This can be any fighter bonus feat or any Skill Focus feat, so long as that feat has no prerequisites. You totally count as a fighter of your Fighter level plus your Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered level for purpose of prerequisites, even though that doesn't benefit you in any way for this feature, though; at least it benefits you when you get back into the Fighter class again after this painful trek.
Mighty Brave There, Fella (Ex): A Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered is mighty brave for a sucky warrior. They add their class level to their Bravery bonus on saves against fear.
If you want a more powerful version, you can do the following:
Spellcasting: Starting at 1st level, the Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered gain spellcasting similar to a Ranger.
He gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list. A Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered must choose and prepare his spells in advance.
To prepare or cast a spell, a Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered's spell is 10 + the spell level + the Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered's Wisdom modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When Table: Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered indicates that the Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level.
A Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain his daily allotment of spells. A Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.
His caster level is equal to his Martials-(Especially Fighters)-are-too-Overpowered level.
This does not stack with a Ranger's caster level, despite being otherwise identical.
(I don't actually have a chart: just use the Ranger chart and lop off the first four levels, and 14th level and onward.)
EDIT: a few brief times for clarity.
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I don't know how many of the posters have actually played the as-written, no-early-entry Mystic Theurge, but I have from 1st to 10th.
The rest of the party consisted of a sorcerer, a cleric, a bard, and a rogue/fighter.
The first three levels of cleric were pretty good.
The next three level of wizard sucked. I had nothing for offense, I couldn't keep up with healing, I failed every reflex save and almost every fort save (I had 10 dex and 12 con). I was useful for non-adventuring though! I had all those wonderful 1st and a few 2nd level utility spells that make time away from combat fun and interesting; as long as they didn't need to last more than a couple minutes, so, no.
7th level, I final entered Mystic Theurge... and nothing changed. I still couldn't do more than fire off some magic missiles, heal a paltry amount, and cast low level buffing spells. This was really all I could do till the campaign ended 3 levels later.
The party bard was really outshining me for support and healing. The straight cleric was just a powerhouse, and the blaster sorcerer made my best spells look like cantrips. I spent the last three levels tagging along behind the fighter and healing/buffing him.
If I ever play another MT, it'll be early entry or nothing.
I don't know how many of the posters have actually played the as-written, no-early-entry Mystic Theurge, but I have from 1st to 10th.
The rest of the party consisted of a sorcerer, a cleric, a bard, and a rogue/fighter.
The first three levels of cleric were pretty good.
The next three level of wizard sucked. I had nothing for offense, I couldn't keep up with healing, I failed every reflex save and almost every fort save (I had 10 dex and 12 con). I was useful for non-adventuring though! I had all those wonderful 1st and a few 2nd level utility spells that make time away from combat fun and interesting; as long as they didn't need to last more than a couple minutes, so, no.
7th level, I final entered Mystic Theurge... and nothing changed. I still couldn't do more than fire off some magic missiles, heal a paltry amount, and cast low level buffing spells. This was really all I could do till the campaign ended 3 levels later.
The party bard was really outshining me for support and healing. The straight cleric was just a powerhouse, and the blaster sorcerer made my best spells look like cantrips. I spent the last three levels tagging along behind the fighter and healing/buffing him.
If I ever play another MT, it'll be early entry or nothing.
That is definitely my concern with playing a MT, and its definitely dependent on who else is on the party and it could only be played at a very high level to be effective. If you don't mind my asking, what build did you use?
HELLO??! Why am I still shouting in the dark alone on this matter??!
In my case because it was the early hours of the morning here at the time of your last post.
Titan, I didn't count 1st level spells on an 8th level character, no. There's a good reason for that which I gave in my first post. Items can provide large numbers of these cheaply. In general I wouldn't count spells more than 3 levels Edit: 3 or more levels lower than the best a wizard of the same character level could cast.
OK, a cleric 3/wizard 1/MT 4 has 9 2nd, 7 3rd and 3 4th level spells/day given the assumptions made. This is more than a single-classed wizard gets and that's when you can start talking about having more spellcasting endurance but less power. A non-early entry MT is not making such a tradeoff; they're just ... less. That's why it's not a realistic option.
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Dragonflayer,
I have a 14 level mystic Theurge character in PFS. I have had allot of fun with this character.
The level break down is Cleric (Pharasma) 3rd level / Wizard (Necromancer) 3rd level / 8 Mystic Theurge
The character isn't optimized. This character was one of my first pathfinder characters and grew organically.
At 8th level he got access to 3rd level spells, 10 level 4th level spells, 12 level 5th level spells and 14 level 6th level spells.
You are most likely going to get lots of advice on how to build the character rules wise.
All I can say is have fun, and don't be afraid to try something.
Good luck,
Elyas
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Dragonflayer,
I have a 14 level mystic Theurge character in PFS. I have had allot of fun with this character.
The level break down is Cleric (Pharasma) 3rd level / Wizard (Necromancer) 3rd level / 8 Mystic Theurge
The character isn't optimized. This character was one of my first pathfinder characters and grew organically.
At 8th level he got access to 3rd level spells, 10 level 4th level spells, 12 level 5th level spells and 14 level 6th level spells.
You are most likely going to get lots of advice on how to build the character rules wise.
All I can say is have fun, and don't be afraid to try something.
Good luck,
Elyas
Thank you very much for offering your help and advice, I really appreciate it.
I don't know how many of the posters have actually played the as-written, no-early-entry Mystic Theurge, but I have from 1st to 10th.
The rest of the party consisted of a sorcerer, a cleric, a bard, and a rogue/fighter.
The first three levels of cleric were pretty good.
The next three level of wizard sucked. I had nothing for offense, I couldn't keep up with healing, I failed every reflex save and almost every fort save (I had 10 dex and 12 con). I was useful for non-adventuring though! I had all those wonderful 1st and a few 2nd level utility spells that make time away from combat fun and interesting; as long as they didn't need to last more than a couple minutes, so, no.
7th level, I final entered Mystic Theurge... and nothing changed. I still couldn't do more than fire off some magic missiles, heal a paltry amount, and cast low level buffing spells. This was really all I could do till the campaign ended 3 levels later.
The party bard was really outshining me for support and healing. The straight cleric was just a powerhouse, and the blaster sorcerer made my best spells look like cantrips. I spent the last three levels tagging along behind the fighter and healing/buffing him.
If I ever play another MT, it'll be early entry or nothing.
I am extremely sorry you did not get my warning about non-early entry Mystic Theurge being physically painful before you went through that. Hopefully the rehab is going well.
HELLO??! Why am I still shouting in the dark alone on this matter??!In my case because it was the early hours of the morning here at the time of your last post.
I didn't mean to say that I was impatient for any replies. What I meant is that this really nonsensial FAQ ruling has been around for way too long, and I just find it hard to believe that nobody else wants it out.
However, you seem to be getting a bit aggressive over this, so I'm not going to worry about it anymore.
I'm not aggressive. It's just caps lock man. Just caps lock. Trying to emphasize the banality of a 7th level cleric + 5th level wizard as an 8th level character. Sure there are a few downsides to such a character but there's nothing your magic can't make up for.
Nobody seems to want to understand it tho, so I'm just lonesome. Just trying to be heard... I'm just so puzzled how nobody seems to care that this FAQ has completely twisted the way people look at Prestige Classes.
... probably because you're shouting instead of actually having a reasonable discourse? And I really don't know what it's like where you're typing, but from where I am (my living room), it's fairly well lit.
First of all, I don't see how I'm not being reasonable. Also, when I'm talking about 'shouting in the dark' I'm obviously being metaphorical.
I've brought my arguments to the table, and the counterarguments either contain slightly erroneous numbers or make assumptions such as "not counting cantrips/orisons and/or 1st level spells",
My question is: Why do you not count these? Sure they are not as powerful but there have been plenty of times throughout campaigns that I saved people and resolved situations using cleverly cast cantrips. You should count them as a worthy part of your arsenal, because effective or not, they can be cast, and they're a given to that particular character.
And yes, I have played a Mystic Theurge before and I know that the backlash for a Mystic Theurge following the 'fair' route is pretty darn heavy. But it went pretty smoothly for me. The only thing I felt bad about is that most days didn't have enough encounters for me to burn up all of my spells, and that sometimes made becoming an MT feel like a worthless effort.
But suppose one person in my party went the early-entry MT route, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play a full cleric in that same party unless I focused heavily on Channel Energy. The MT will outclass that character almost entirely, because he is not only almost the same cleric albeit one level behind, he is also a 5th-level wizard in terms of spellcasting at the same time.
One could argue having another cleric would be pretty redundant anyway, but I'm just trying to explain my point.
But alas,
I admit I was proven wrong thinking that the MT had twice as much stuff going for him, which is a bit of an overstatement. There was no other spellcaster in that party at the time, which was my main reason for becoming a MT in the first place.
And it seems as far as opinions go, it's everyone against one here... so I'll just raise the white flag here and settle for it.
Like I said the reason to not count low level spells isn't that they're not useful - it's that they can be purchased for minimal cost as consumables of various types. You can have scrolls of Air Bubble and Comprehend Languages and a wand of Cure Light Wounds if you want without impacting normal wealth for an 8th level character in any significant way.
A MT will miss out on the 6th/8th level powers of domain or school as well as a level in their primary class. A single-classed cleric would have better hit points, base attack, channel energy and better armor; a wizard would have more spells and depends on their spells/caster level more. Either of the single classed types has more favored class bonuses. It's still a tradeoff and IMO not the no-brainer you believe it to be.
3/3 is too many caster levels lost to be competitive with a full caster. 3/1 entry via an SLA is a hack with arguable results. I would prefer to see a prestige class which simply drops a full spell level on each class (2/2 entry, or 1/1 with no spellcasting increase for either on the first level) but what we have is the hack.
I posted a fun build at the end of the other Theurge thread linked to at the top. I won't repost here because 1) There is a link at the top. 2) I think we aren't supposed to be redundant in threads. and 3) I think we aren't supposed to be redundant in threads.
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But suppose one person in my party went the early-entry MT route, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play a full cleric in that same party unless I focused heavily on Channel Energy. The MT will outclass that character almost entirely, because he is not only almost the same cleric albeit one level behind, he is also a 5th-level wizard in terms of spellcasting at the same time.
One could argue having another cleric would be pretty redundant anyway, but I'm just trying to explain my point.
Cleric is probably the wrong comparison here. Mystic Theurges are pretty MAD, and have d6 HD and 1/2 BAB, they also (unless you've used a Bard or Magus as your arcane entry) lose half their spells while in armor. You can have a very effective frontline combat cleric, while you cannot have a very effective frontline combat MT. It's also a mistake to underestimate a number of the level 8 domain powers that a MT will likely never have access to - the Heroism domain for example, which can turn an Evangelist Cleric into a buff-machine.
The Mystic Theurge, even early entry, does not detract from core or base classes because it changes the class features entirely and trades off everything else for spells. You lose the combat capability & domain progression of the Cleric, the bonus feats and school progression of the Wizard, the Bloodline powers of the Sorcerer and the Mystery/Curse progression of the Oracle. It has a niche as a solid utility caster, but doesn't overshadow any full caster class.
Actually, the Oracle's Curse progression is not lost, but merely slowed down instead. It's an easy-to-miss sentence near the end of the first paragraph under the Oracle's Curse class feature text.
I hereby give up and apologize for flooding the thread. I also brought up a redundant discussion since it's been done before.
I guess I'm just still irked by this FAQ ruling and the effect it has on character building. I disagree with it and at my table it will not be allowed. That is all.
Again, sorry for being a bother.
EDIT: Sorry for going caps lock earlier, didn't mean to assault anything or anyone, I meant it as a joke and for emphasis.
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8th level early-early entry (20pb):
[any race, chose human] cleric (???, fate inquisition) 1 / wizard (diviner [-ench/illu]) 2 / MT 5
str 8 (-2), dex 14 (5), con 12 (2), int 16 (5+2r), wis 16 (10), cha 10
wizard spells:
1 - 5+1
2 - 4+1
3 - 3+1
4 - 1+1
cleric spells
1 - 4+1
2 - 4+1
3 - 3+1
spell total (counting school spec and domains):
17+14 = 31
i'm sure there's ways to squeeze out more spells.
I'm totally using my new prestige class, by the way, in a campaign I'm running. Heh.
EDIT:
Any ideas for a slightly better name? 'Cause I like my name, but it's a bit unwieldy...
First of all, I don't see how I'm not being reasonable. Also, when I'm talking about 'shouting in the dark' I'm obviously being metaphorical.
Metaphorical it may be, but I'd hoped my the silliness in my response tempered any sharpness to it. I was being overly literal (obviously) in response to your metaphorical utilization of terms for the purpose of balancing any undo or frustrating harshness with humor. It didn't work, alas, but that's how those things go.
I would suggest that you're not alone in your desire to see the ruling gone, but I would suggest that your posit that Mystic Theurges have unbalancing power is what is being argued against, and relatively thoroughly.
The primary reason I didn't and don't count cantrips at 8th level is: they're not really your "spells" anymore; but rather they're the thing you use when you're out of spells.
A melee fighter uses his backup weapon bow when fighting at range. A rogue uses his one-shot dimension door when he needs to get out of there, fast.
Cantrips (and orisons) are useful, but they're not powerful.
Going by the cleric list: +2 circumstance bonus to a skill? Get a masterwork tool. Stabilize? 1 rank in Heal+class skill. Bleed? Kick it. Guidance and Resistance? Probably obsolete by any magic item you have, and most often a waste of a round. Virtue? Doesn't help anymore. Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Light, Mending, and Spark are all on both lists. That leaves: Purify Food and Drink and Create Water: useful, but not game-altering... and creating an unlimited-use of either or both of those is dirt cheap and almost goofily easy, whether or not you've got them as part of your class. Heck, you can make a cleric's entire 14-orison list as Command Word trinket magic items at will for 6,300 gold, and none of them are things you really need in any sort of immediate sense. By 8th level, you can afford that.
Were it me and I wanted to be excessively lavish? Behold the Amulet of Barely-There-Magic (i.e. 'everything you'd need from cleric orisons in a day') which takes 7,590 gp; eight days; and one feat to create).
Aura faint various; CL 1st
Slot neck; Price 15,180 gp; Weight ------------------------------------------------------------
DESCRIPTION
-----------------------------------------------------------This amulet (probably something like a holy symbol of a bunch'a' gods all smushed 'round the edges or somethin', I dun'no) can be used to entirely replace your cleric's orison special ability by 8th level, and probably a bit better (since you don't have to be seen casting enhanced diplomacy).
Constant: detect magic, detect poison, enhanced diplomacy, read magic
Command Word: create water (2/day), mending (1/day), purify food and drink (3/day), stabilize (3/day)
-----------------------------------------------------------
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
-----------------------------------------------------------Craft Wondrous Item, all the orisons used above, Cost 7,590 gp
(For the Cost: I used the increase in cost based off of duration for constant effects, presuming enhanced diplomacy is 'measured in rounds' at a duration of 1 minute, and then multiplying the whole thing by 1.5 in the end, 'cause, frankly, I don't care which is the most expensive v. least expensive to start from and go through, and the price works out to be very similar, as I'm upping both the most expensive and second most expensive.)
QUASI-EDIT:
This doesn't work if your GM doesn't allow you to craft magical items, but that's not entirely the point of this exercise. Look at the value of what that does. About 8k and a feat. At 8th level, with a starting wealth of 33k, that's a bit more than a quarter of your wealth... but it rapidly diminishes from there. What's more, I voluntarily chose a lavish and expensive manner to handle the replication of orisons. A bunch of Command Word items would be less expensive , and allow me all at-will all the time.
EDIT: Also, as noted by others, consumables (which cost diddly+squat) can do most of these things far better. :)
This is the problem: your argument seems to be that they're over-powered... and none of us find them over powered.
There are always going to be disagreements. I want you to know, however, that despite the fact that I disagree with you, I don't dislike you or find you lacking in some way. I just disagree. :D
Peace to you, sir!
First:
I don't see how I'm not being reasonable
... was in response to
instead of having a reasonable discourse
... which what in response to
shouting in the dark
In other words, I suspect there was more than a bit of failed Sense Motive going on, for both of our parts. Jokes that sailed past the heads of those who felt the other was, in fact, being unreasonable in their held position in the face of other evidence.
I would like to say, however, that,
Nobody seems to want to understand it tho,
... may well comprehensibly generate ire and cause things like,
so I'm just lonesome. Just trying to be heard...
... (i.e. the more humorous asides) to be ignored in the frustration of the first part.
Especially with things like,
I'm just so puzzled how nobody seems to care that this FAQ has completely twisted the way people look at Prestige Classes.
... backing up the first sentence, which, again, tend to paint you as the only one with any form of sanity or focus.
This is the major area in which you seem to fail to be holding a reasonable discourse - it seems that you are insulting and belittling those who disagree with you, as you don't hold that their perceptions are anything but "twisted" in regards to Prestige Classes.
This is backed by,
I've brought my arguments to the table, and the counterarguments either contain slightly erroneous numbers or make assumptions such as "not counting cantrips/orisons and/or 1st level spells",
... which is really a hard thing to argue as something that weighs in your favor, considering, from your own original point, there were slightly erroneous numbers. I, myself, noted where there were possible differences in my conclusion from your own (including several elements that you later included in the counting; lacking only the cantrips) and noted that there were, in fact, probably accounting errors somewhere.
My point is simply that you may have good points, but in regard to how you present them, you may wish to switch tactics to get your own ideas across in a less vitriolic-seeming manner.
This will not only help you, but also help us all! It's a communication tool. It's... not something I always do well, unfortunately, but we can keep learning and improving together! :D