The player has not done anything too fancy (other than the level of cleric) and has simply progressed down the archery feats. We are paying attention to cover/concealment.
He has done something Fancy. He is playing a very powerful race that he took a racial subtype to get the perfect bonuses he wanted. He is also dipping just to get an aura for his Litany spell. He already worships the god, the class dip is just to exploit something.
The biggest problem with Archery is when it is combined with static bonuses. Archery Bane and Smite are combos that kind of break the system.
*Good Stuff
Audit his character sheet. Make sure its all correct and find his weakness and use that.
This character will become a nightmare but I expect that change to happen between 9 and 12. After that, you will need alot of magic defences based around protecting yourself from him. By level 12 Wizards can end encounters too, so its not that big of a deal. The game starts to become rocket tag at that point.
Litany of Righteousness does very little for an inquisitor:
1.They lack the good sub-type or a good aura (class ability) so no x2 damage.
2. In paizo damage doubling does not apply to extra die from bane anyway.
1) He has a level of cleric.
2) Yes it does. LoR makes you roll total damage and multiply by 2. It's unique but hilariously OP.
If he is not a cleric of a good aligned god it still doesn't work. His own alignment doesn't have anything to do with his aura.
Not that this is likely to change the situation, just point out that in order to have an aura of good you must be cleric of a good aligned god. Or a Paladin.
1) I can let the archer dominate combat.
2) I can add lots of casters with archery defeating spells.
3) I can change the core rules...
1) Saving up money is really hard and assuming this guy has spent nearly 10k on his weapon, all the other players have invested 10k in their own items as well. In order for him to buy this weapon he had to make some pretty big sacrifices, he must have been hoarding cash since something like level 4.
From the way this summary reads, this player hasn't even gotten use out of his bow yet and you are jumping to block him. Yes he will be strong but he worked for it, how long did he stay in the shadows of the other players before he finally saved up enough money? Everyone on your team seems to have their niche they can excel at, monk ignores attacks, witch ends encounters with single spells, cleric keeps everyone alive, fighter does whatever it is he's been doing.
The ogres are stupid, let the inquisitor have his time in the sun. The ogres furthest from the influence of their bosses *should* show less tactics and intelligence. Deeper into the chapter as the party nears the more intelligent leaders, the ogres begin charging archers and casters, they use their strong arms to grapple, their reach gives inescapable attacks of opportunities, they throw rocks to block line of sight, or use objects as portable shields.
These are things possible without changing the core rules.
Speaking of rules the inquisitor can't use Righteousness with bane (both use swift actions), so he's doing 2d8+2d6 for burning a level 3 spell? He's spending a level 3 spell to gain 1d8+1d6+4 damage? This sort of return on investment is atrocious!
To compare the witch at this point can deep slumber/lightning bolt/stinking cloud/volcanic storm/symbol slow/mass daze, the cleric can holy smite/summon elemental/aura of doom.
Old school method of handling PC actions that throw the game off-balance is to throw it right back at them.
Use to have PCs regularly throwing Molotov cocktails (or the equivalent) to get the upper hand on encounters. GM response was to have an army of mooks throwing Molotov cocktails at the party at every corner. Didn't take much for the PCs to modify their behavior.
Uber archer can be countered with uber archers, uber archers with access to stuff the PCs don't have (because monsters don't have to follow PC rules), and the aforementioned spell casters or melee combatants who can close distance, break bows, and utterly destroy an archer in very short order. Got to mix it up though.
Of course, some players are just going to power game - and pout when they don't dominate things. They tend not to notice the dissatisfaction among the other PCs at their build and conduct.
The GM's job is to make it fun. Players need to be challenged, and that challenge is too dependent upon the specific group of players you game with. "PCs always win" is definitely missing the point. You have to adjust the encounter to keep the group interested, and it's often easier to back off the difficulty level than it is to raise it. When players do something stupid, they should die. And you can ask them up front whether they'd like to play it as written (which to some groups is easy mode), moderately challenging (within reason) or hard mode. And this can change from session to session depending on what everyone wants.
As pointed out, and fitting with RotRL Hook Mountain Massacre, poor weather is your friend. I've also found that RotRL has a few spots that are challenging as written, and a lot that require some adjustment. Or you can keep them guessing at which encounters are hard and which are easy. Let your uber archer blaze through the boring parts - gives them their time in the spotlight and keeps your campaign moving. Or you could always role play - don't really hear people complaining that that part is broken.
No sunder truce is kind of funny since I have a player with a PC built on sundering who has no issue breaking other players' hard earned equipment. In fact, my group of players fear spells or effects that cause one of the PCs to attack the others probably more so than anything else. Being top DPS dog in that fight wouldn't be pretty.
To be honest it could be worse. Have you ever seen an oath of vengeance archer paladin at work?
Anyway +1 on auditing his character. It's easy to make honest mistakes with what what does and doesn't stack.
Occasionally its OK to have environmental effects that make archery harder but don't over do it!
Dead, 10K is about the expected wealth difference between level 7 and 8, he has not been saving that long.
I am not "moving to block him" and kill his fun. This is an ongoing conversation with the player along the lines of "DM, am I doing this right? because it seems like I am going to wreck every fight." He knows he is too powerful. We were curious what other groups have done to counter the overly powerful (imo) archery. And shadows? Archers are not in the shadows after probably level 4, they build in power from 4-8 and then destroy things from about 9+ (based on my experience). And the niche comment is spot on. I want to allow players to excel in their niche...If one player is WAY WAY WAY overpowered it makes the others feel useless.
On the atrocious litany return...It is actually more like:
1d8+1d6(acid)+2d6(holy) +14 (x FOUR ATTACKS) (x double damage)
so more like (for 1 round):
8d8+24d6+112 (assuming they all hit..etc..but against ogres, they are all going to hit.)
That does seem atrocious, just the other direction.
And GREAT catch on the bane.
My current rules adjustments are leaning:
1. no clustered shot feat
2. no Litany spells
This lets the player still do TONS of damage. Lets tougher DR monsters live a bit. If I add in some environment and counter measures, my hope is I can keep encounters interesting. And as always, try and keep lots of role-play up too.
We do a group audit every level. I missed that BOTH litany and bane were swifts. But I think the rest of his numbers seem to stack.
An Inquisitor's Bane ability is activated as a swift action, but lasts rounds per level. Presumably, it would have been activated in a round prior to the one in which Litany is cast.
I agree that Litany is a problem spell, and I would not weep over its loss.
Dead, 10K is about the expected wealth difference between level 7 and 8, he has not been saving that long.
I am not "moving to block him" and kill his fun. This is an ongoing conversation with the player along the lines of "DM, am I doing this right? because it seems like I am going to wreck every fight." He knows he is too powerful. We were curious what other groups have done to counter the overly powerful (imo) archery. And shadows? Archers are not in the shadows after probably level 4, they build in power from 4-8 and then destroy things from about 9+ (based on my experience). And the niche comment is spot on. I want to allow players to excel in their niche...If one player is WAY WAY WAY overpowered it makes the others feel useless.
On the atrocious litany return...It is actually more like:
1d8+1d6(acid)+2d6(holy) +14 (x FOUR ATTACKS) (x double damage)
so more like (for 1 round):
8d8+24d6+112 (assuming they all hit..etc..but against ogres, they are all going to hit.)
That does seem atrocious, just the other direction.And GREAT catch on the bane.
My current rules adjustments are leaning:
1. no clustered shot feat
2. no Litany spellsThis lets the player still do TONS of damage. Lets tougher DR monsters live a bit. If I add in some environment and counter measures, my hope is I can keep encounters interesting. And as always, try and keep lots of role-play up too.
We do a group audit every level. I missed that BOTH litany and bane were swifts. But I think the rest of his numbers seem to stack.
If you're going to ban Litany of Righteousness, go for it, but don't ban all the Litany spells. The majority of them are stuff he can use to help the REST of his party (like Litany of Escape), or increase his defenses (Litany of Defense, Litany of Sight).
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On the atrocious litany return...It is actually more like:
1d8+1d6(acid)+2d6(holy) +14 (x FOUR ATTACKS) (x double damage)
so more like (for 1 round):
8d8+24d6+112 (assuming they all hit..etc..but against ogres, they are all going to hit.)
Ok, but unless you are using 25 point buy or this guy has like a 7 con, those numbers are with Judgement, Bane, and Litany up... so this isn't happening before round 3 because they are all swift action activations. What where the ogres doing in the first 2 rounds? They can take cover or disarm the archer before he ramps everything up. Also, even if this does all go off, he has blown 2 of his 8 rounds of bane, 1 of his 3 judgements, and 1 of his 3 level 3 spells (assuming 16 wis). Also, with the double damage, he might have killed the one enemy that was affected by the litany in less than a full attack and not even gotten a full round of benefit out of that spell, especially if it isn't happening until the 3rd round of the combat (if there is still an undamaged enemy on the 3rd round, sounds like that's good for you giving them a challenge). Again, the full trick is limited to 3 rounds per day against 3 specific enemies and leaves him unable to use judgement in other combats that day and only 2 other rounds worth of bane damage.
And, by my back of the envelope math...
6 BAB + 6 Dex + 3 Enhancement (2 from bane) + 2 sacred (judgement) + 1 PBS -2 rapid shot -2deadly aim = +14... after TWO rounds of buffing with limited use abilities
He's looking at about +14 (two arrows) / +14 (one arrow)/ +9 (one arrow) with judgement, bane, deadly aim, rapid shot, and point blank shot in play, given the weapon you described and assuming 22 dex. If the ogres have cover, he is shooting against 21 AC... hardly automatic, but why waste that much power on a CR3... if they are hill giants with cover, then that is AC25... an even 50/50 to hit.
The rest of those combats he is +12 (2arrows) / +12 / +7 for 1d8+1d6+12.... not awful for a level 9 character, but not that good either.
The rest of the day he is +10 (2arrows) / +10 / +5 for 1d8+1d6+9.... frankly, that is not so great for a level 9 character.
I missed that BOTH litany and bane were swifts. But I think the rest of his numbers seem to stack.
They will stack, he just has to use bane a round before using the litany and pay 2 rounds worth of usage... and have the foresight to select the correct bane type for what he wants to shoot at the following round.
Obviously, without seeing the full character sheet, these are back of the envelop estimations, but the point remains. I think this character is pretty manageable from a GM standpoint. Good Luck.
Make the archer move!
Swarms and Flaming Sphere are cheap and easy. "Move or take damage, your call."
Dimension Door or any kind of teleportation that brings an enemy up close and personal very quickly is also good.
Enemies with good speed are another handy way to close the gap quickly. Monks or barbarians with their fast movement. Mounted troops to close the ground quickly and who can use Ride checks to negate some hits. Expeditious Retreat speeds up just about anyone. Monsters that just have a good move speed.
The various concealment, fog, invisibility, cover suggestions are good defensive ways to counter an archer. The ones I've suggested are more offensive.
I think the key is to use a variety and to not use it all the time. The archer should be able to mow down some encounters some of the time. But there should be other times when he's a little more pressed and the other characters get to strut their stuff.
As has been mentioned, the players are supposed to win.
However, never ever EVER actually let them know that. Players should always feel like they succeeded at something difficult/impossible, not just achieved the foregone conclusion.
disallow the cleric dip cheese.
Would you elaborate on this? Do you feel all dips are cheese?
I would hardly call it dipping cheese, the character is already a divine caster , supposedly following a god, a level of cleric matches up with inquisitor very well and he'd already have knowledge of the powers the gods can grant.
It's like saying (realistically speaking) that a fighter who takes profession blacksmith so he can craft better swords is being cheesy. It makes complete logical sense.
Also the guy picked a race and took a class that takes advantage of his racial bonus's..... That's like saying if I'm good at Math and teaching that it's "cheesy" for me to become a math teacher. Taking advantage of ones natural abilities is completely ..... well natural! lol
His "to hit" must be poor. He is maxing out is damage, even ogres are going to not be hit that often - I would estimate his hit rate at half. Let's face it, ogres have crappy AC, BB end boss, he is going to whiff, maybe 1 shot a round will hit. Not sure the concern, dipping into cleric is going to hurt his hit, everything he is doing hurts his hit. If you want to screw the archer, just up the AC by a couple points and bam, rain of whiff, -4 circumstance (rain, poor light, cover) should have been able to shut him down.
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IMHO instead of thinking on tactics tricks and other subjects to nerf or just kill the player, I stick to the ones that say that you must talk to him, probably you all are a bunch of friends. Tell him to try to not augment more his bow attacks, and retrain his cleric level to inquisitor, because he already is good enought and doesn't need that boost. Just the recon that he is creating a monster character will be enough award in a friends group.
I must have misunderstood the question. I was about to recommend guacamole, which is a superior dip.disallow the cleric dip cheese.Would you elaborate on this? Do you feel all dips are cheese?
This is something I can wholehartedly agree with.
IMHO instead of thinking on tactics tricks and other subjects to nerf or just kill the player, I stick to the ones that say that you must talk to him, probably you all are a bunch of friends. Tell him to try to not augment more his bow attacks, and retrain his cleric level to inquisitor, because he already is good enought and doesn't need that boost. Just the recon that he is creating a monster character will be enough award in a friends group.
Amen to that.
When I'm about to create a monster or exploit a rule or a combo, what I do is I explain it right before the game start out loud and describe it and what it would do. And then add: "even I wouldn't actually use that." But they just know I could. And that alone makes me happy, and I can go back to playing an optimised but enjoyable dude.Oh btw i'm playing a Zen archer right now in Kingmaker. And i'm head and shoulders above all the rest of the team's DPS. So I agreed with my GM to not go the Improved Snap Shot line. And we'll probably skip the Clustered shots line too. I'm fine with that.
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Something that lots of GMs don't realize is ranged attacks (excepting siege weapons) do half damage vs anything with hardness.
Animated objects are a great counter to archers!
If you can't add those, you can cook up some situations where the archer has to blow through destructible cover rather than thread his arrows through cover/concealment to hit the baddies sniping back.
Something that lots of GMs don't realize is ranged attacks (excepting siege weapons) do half damage vs anything with hardness.
Original statement redacted for wrongness.
This statement is only partially correct. Ranged attacks except siege weapons do half damage to object before hardness is applied. However constructs, and anything that moves pretty much, are creatures not ibjects. Even if they possess hardness. So, since they are not objects, the damage is not halved.
A lot of the suggestions in this thread involve having enemy 'casters who can create fog, wind walls, etc. The OP mentioned a lack of enemy casters in the current part of the adventure; I've run Runelords and agree that the majority of encounters in the middle of the AP are lean on spellcasters as opponents.
In the Serpent's Skull campaign we're just now wrapping up, I'm playing the ranger archer machinegun-of-death. From that side of things, I can tell you that the best thing you can do is find ways to force the archer to move as often as possible during combat. Manyshot, Rapid Shot, an extra shot from haste (boots of speed aren't hard to come by) and even the damage benefits of Clustered Shots all go out the window as soon as the character has to move more than 5'. Where possible, alter the terrain and enemy deployment so that the archer can't pick off every opponent from a single position.
If your unwritten contract with your players gives you the option of disallowing Clustered Shots, do so; IMHO there is nothing more damage-boosting to a ranged fighter.
Cover is good, but concealment is too easy to defeat if the PC further enhances his bow: seeking is a +1 enhancement to the bow and negates any miss chances.
When you do have access to spells, confusion, in my experience, is a great way to nerf a ranged death-dealer. While under the effects of the spell, there's a 75% chance each round he'll be doing something other than hurting the enemy. My witch ally has been forced to slumber me out of more than one combat because I was targeting my friends instead of my enemies. :)
Jumping ahead a bit: when you get to Book Six, be sure to have Karzoug all but immune to the archer's attacks. The guy has INT in the high 30's, millenia of experience, access to high level ancient magic, and specific knowledge of the PCs. Make up magic items, such as a belt or cloak that generates a wind wall around the wearer. Make use of 3rd party spells (forgotten Azlanti lore.) That encounter more than any other should force PCs to change the tactics thay've come to rely on.
Something that lots of GMs don't realize is ranged attacks (excepting siege weapons) do half damage vs anything with hardness.That's not a rule. Ranged weapon don't automatically do half damage to objects. They do have to contend with an objects hardness, which means subtracting hardness from each attack the archer makes, similar to DR. Because archers focus more on making lots of weaker attacks (compared to melee) hardness or DR can significantly reduce the overall damage output, but you don't just cut it in half.
The only damage type that gets halved against object is energy damage, like fire, cold, acid, and electricity. And subject to the GM, the penalty can be removed such as fire damage being applied to wood/paper.
In the Serpent's Skull campaign we're just now wrapping up, I'm playing the ranger archer machinegun-of-death. From that side of things, I can tell you that the best thing you can do is find ways to force the archer to move as often as possible during combat. Manyshot, Rapid Shot, an extra shot from haste (boots of speed aren't hard to come by) and even the damage benefits of Clustered Shots all go out the window as soon as the character has to move more than 5'. Where possible, alter the terrain and enemy deployment so that the archer can't pick off every opponent from a single position.
Forcing the ranger to move is a good option.A archer that has moved gets one attack, usually with a pretty lousy damage modifier compared to a melee characters. However, rangers are probably more adept at avoiding this than any other type of archer because they can have a mount. Give the mount the narrow frame feat and he can fit anywhere the PCs can. Now he uses his horse to traverse the battlefield, and can still make a full attack (under mounted archery rules archers still get a full attack while moving).
However, finding a way to get him to dismount and walk around could be the biggest way of reducing the machine gun affect and keep him from walking all over encounters.
"Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object's hardness."Something that lots of GMs don't realize is ranged attacks (excepting siege weapons) do half damage vs anything with hardness.That's not a rule. Ranged weapon don't automatically do half damage to objects. They do have to contend with an objects hardness, which means subtracting hardness from each attack the archer makes, similar to DR. Because archers focus more on making lots of weaker attacks (compared to melee) hardness or DR can significantly reduce the overall damage output, but you don't just cut it in half.
The only damage type that gets halved against object is energy damage, like fire, cold, acid, and electricity. And subject to the GM, the penalty can be removed such as fire damage being applied to wood/paper.
Interesting, but I'm completely unable to locate that in the Core Rule Book of the PRD. Is it someplace else? Where I wouldn't expect to find the rule. I even attempted to double check his statement and that was the only thing in the CRB related to it, that I found. Though I did just find in Ultimate Combat where it states siege engines don't take the penalty like normal ranged weapons.
Of course, something that is important to note is that animated objects are creatures and not objects. So it still doesn't help against creatures, and having hardness doesn't make you not a creature.
Edit: I finally found it under the damaging objects section, though I was looking in Combat. So perhaps that's why I couldn't see it. It also doesn't help the PRD's search feature isn't the best and I can't access d20pfsrd at work.
However, I still want to reiterate the constructs are creatures and not objects and the halving of damage applies only to objects. So, if you archer starts trying to sunder things with his bow (which would be the fighter archer archetype since no one else can perform) I guess it's relevant. Actually, since a normal archer can't perform a sunder with his bow I'm wonder what prompted the creation of that rule. Based on the archetype no one except him can do it, but why does the rule exist before the archetype did?
True. And I'd imagine it would be in the Breaking Objects section.
Edit: Yep. Page 174.
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However, I still want to reiterate the constructs are creatures and not objects and the halving of damage applies only to objects. So, if you archer starts trying to sunder things with his bow (which would be the fighter archer archetype since no one else can perform) I guess it's relevant. Actually, since a normal archer can't perform a sunder with his bow I'm wonder what prompted the creation of that rule. Based on the archetype no one except him can do it, but why does the rule exist before the archetype did?
I'm guessing someone trying to shoot through a closed door and then hit someone on the other side with the blow-through.
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Something that lots of GMs don't realize is ranged attacks (excepting siege weapons) do half damage vs anything with hardness.... However constructs, and anything that moves pretty much, are creatures not ibjects. Even if they possess hardness. So, since they are not objects, the damage is not halved.
Most constructs have DR which is indeed a separate rules mechanic from hardness. However there are still some creatures that have actual hardness, and animated objects are most notable. (and if you do have caster NPCs of sufficient level, entirely plausible to insert)
However, I still want to reiterate the constructs are creatures and not objects...
I don't mean to be argumentative, but says who? It's a certainly reasonable ruling to say that at your table, while you're GMing, an animated object ceases to be an object and is only a creature. However it's equally appropo to say that it's simultaneously both an object AND a creature. Not only is the keyword 'object' right there in the name of the creature, it makes in-universe sense. It's a magically enchanted table/chair/whatever.
Actually that same page I was quoting about ranged weapons dealing half damage goes on to specificially address Animated Objects. They are treated as creatures only with regards to Armor Class (ie, they're not automatically hit). It most certainly does not say they are treated as creatures in ALL ways.
True. And I'd imagine it would be in the Breaking Objects section.
Edit: Yep. Page 174.
Linkified.
Something that lots of GMs don't realize is ranged attacks (excepting siege weapons) do half damage vs anything with hardness.... However constructs, and anything that moves pretty much, are creatures not ibjects. Even if they possess hardness. So, since they are not objects, the damage is not halved.Most constructs have DR which is indeed a separate rules mechanic from hardness. However there are still some creatures that have actual hardness, and animated objects are most notable. (and if you do have caster NPCs of sufficient level, entirely plausible to insert)
However, I still want to reiterate the constructs are creatures and not objects...I don't mean to be argumentative, but says who? It's a certainly reasonable ruling to say that at your table, while you're GMing, an animated object ceases to be an object and is only a creature. However it's equally appropo to say that it's simultaneously both an object AND a creature. Not only is the keyword 'object' right there in the name of the creature, it makes in-universe sense. It's a magically enchanted table/chair/whatever.
The part of the creature entry in the bestiary that says "type: construct". Constructs are creatures.
Objects are non-living, non-moving things in the world. Trees for exmaples are objects despite being "alive" in the real world sense. But for game purposes they are objects, not creatures. By the same token, for game rules constructs are creatures, not objects.
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The part of the creature entry in the bestiary that says "type: construct". Constructs are creatures.
Objects are non-living, non-moving things in the world. Trees for exmaples are objects despite being "alive" in the real world sense. But for game purposes they are objects, not creatures. By the same token, for game rules constructs are creatures, not objects.
Page 174 makes a distinction between what you're describing, "Inanimate Objects" and the enchanted Animated Objects. That distinction does NOT involve not halving damage from ranged weapons.
Actually that same page I was quoting about ranged weapons dealing half damage goes on to specificially address Animated Objects. They are treated as creatures only with regards to Armor Class (ie, they're not automatically hit). It most certainly does not say they are treated as creatures in ALL ways.
You mean this quote from here:
Animated Objects: Animated objects count as creatures for purposes of determining their Armor Class (do not treat them as inanimate objects).
Where it tells you they aren't objects, they're creatures?
That section is about damaging objects. It doesn't tell you to count animated objects as objects for all purposes except AC, it's simply telling you for the purposes smashing an object its a creature.
More broadly, it's always a creature.
Weather +
Fog, smoke, Mist, and Blur… Anything that gives them a miss chance to hit.
No Cluster shot Feat. We have banded in my game since it came out. It Broken as hell.
You say you up fight due to 5 PC. Good
Wealth by level is on track. ok make it little ie 10% or 15% below.
What Point Buy do you use? 15 point buy is base line. So if it is rolled or it 20 point or more you may need to toughen CRs.
Poison Weapons, Burn, Bleed Effects
Alchemist levels on mocks. Bombs attack Touch AC. So low level Mocks do not need roll well to hit.
Air Elemental with Sorcerer level since 2 levels* will only add 1 CR give them spell like obscuring mist, Wind wall, blur, windy escape, Vanish, Invisibility
Or Monk levels again only 2 levels will only add 1 CR*. Give them Spring attack, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance, and Deflect Arrows.
Elemental is Neutral so no holy, and you can not Critical them.
* Till equal to Racial HD
This will slow down Archer with loss of 2D6 per shot for holy, Loss one Arrow per round with Deflect Arrow feat and one shot that miss every other round due to miss chance. This should let your mokes live 2 or 3 rounds longer.
Lastly no 3 fight work days make it 5 or 6. Run some random encounters to eat up there daily resources. Also keep track of them stuff like Bane.
Pit spells vs Inquisitor Archer I guess at 8th level He has Dex of 20 or 22 so that is +5 or 6 and Base of +2 for level maybe +1 for Resistance so that +8 or +9 vs minimum DC 16 that about a 40% failure rate and take him out of the fight for 2 or 3 round. And if dose make he has to move or face it again till they do move at 30% failure rate.
Next anything push him in to the pit. Giants Bulrush or Drag really well…Spell like , Force Punch, Hydraulic Push, Telekinesis, Telekinetic Charge put them in the pit or Black Tentacles area.
Take it or Break it.
Disarm the Weapon, Spell Pilfering Hand the weapon, Steel Arrows,
Suggestion “Can I have that”…Then leave with it Teleport Dim Door, fly ect
Take his sight via Blindness Spell or Glitter Dust.
Sunder… yes I know it magical… Ok give the bad guys oils of magic weapon greater. Warp Wood, Break or Shatter spell on the bow.
Honestly, it might be a losing battle. Rise of the Runelords is by FAR the easiest of the APs I've played.
Even if your archer tones it down, without heavy alterations you're not going to see a ton of change except instead of the archer killing everything, you'll see the archer killing a lot of things while the rest of the party facerolls over the rest.
I found RotRL to be one of the harder APs. If you play it with 15 pt buy it's quite difficult compared to later APs.
Some of the things that I've done.
* Weather is the simplest way. Any time they are outdoors and it isn't a lovely spring/summer day is a day when you can impose precipitation and wind effects on the archer.
* Forcing the archer to move. Something as simple as the foe stepping around a corner (with a readied action) can ruin someone's day.
* NPC archers. Give some of the bigger guys (high-strength brutes) composite bows. A giant with a +5 Strength Bow, and Vital strike can do significant damage, and still remain mobile.
* Sunder. Even a magical bow will not stand up to someone who is dedicated to destroying it.
* Let the guy shine when he can/does. Sometimes a one-trick pony can be fun to watch.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
As a note don't sunder gear.
Sundering is like CDG'ing someone while other players are still up. It creates bad will between you and your players.
I second this. Monsters don't care about getting their stuff sundered, PCs very much do. PCs, at least in my experience, like their +whatever greatweapon, even if it's generic as all get out. Should always be an unspoken agreement to avoid sundering their stuff.
I second this. Monsters don't care about getting their stuff sundered, PCs very much do. PCs, at least in my experience, like their +whatever greatweapon, even if it's generic as all get out. Should always be an unspoken agreement to avoid sundering their stuff.As a note don't sunder gear.
Sundering is like CDG'ing someone while other players are still up. It creates bad will between you and your players.
Ludicrous.
Terrain, weather, adverse conditions...all of these can play a significant role in making the world challenging for a dedicated archer. We played a scenario recently where our archer, flying on her roc up above the forest, was unable to see the forest floor because of the canopy of trees. Simple. Realistic. Effective.
Think of it in degrees as well: you don't need to shut them down completely, just cancel out some of their major bonuses. Cover and concealment, movement, mist, smoke, dazzling lights, obnoxious vapors, etc. can lend a certain atmosphere to an encounter and remind the archer that "archin' ain't easy".
Game is Thursday, so I can report back then.
Just because several have brought it up...we are 5 players (20 point buy). I adjust HD, ability scores (very few odd numbers), Class levels, Hit Points, spell lists, Use occasional advanced template..etc to compensate. I do try and keep the fights challenging, but I don't constantly stack the deck against the PC's. It gets boring fast, if EVERY caster you run into has Wind Wall.
One new thing that has been repeatedly brought up is: make the archer move. I have not purposefully set fights up so that this would occur, so it rarely does. I will probably position my baddies from now on, so that this situation might occur more.
Right that's completely fine by me. That's not the same as breaking the gear. Breaking the gear should never be done. Tactics, corners, cover, weather (Not every single day but at least once), terrain, and otherwise some spells.Never touch the PC's gear or permanently delevel them. It just creates bad will between pc's and GM. If they've earned it they should at least keep the loot.
Rubbish. There is no entitlement. Remove any sense of entitlement from the game and players will enjoy conquering the world all the more. That's all I have to say on that subject.
Back on topic: Archers are glass cannons. Bear in mind "glass" and "cannon" and you can design some very challenging encounters for them.
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Hence the Sunder Truce. We don't have it written down but it is understood that the DM won't sunder your equipment if you agree not to use it either. Exception: If there is a monster or bad guy who specifically have that as an ability or tactic. That adds the possible threat of having equipment broken but it makes it rare enough that is does not foster ill will (or sunder arms race) between the DM and the PC's. So far there has been threat of equipment lost to a babau and a black pudding (If I remember correctly the Black Pudding broke some items that needed magic to repair). So broken equipment does occur in my game, but I tend to mostly take Undone's position.
On the atrocious litany return...It is actually more like:
1d8+1d6(acid)+2d6(holy) +14 (x FOUR ATTACKS) (x double damage)
so more like (for 1 round):
8d8+24d6+112 (assuming they all hit..etc..but against ogres, they are all going to hit.)Ok, but unless you are using 25 point buy or this guy has like a 7 con, those numbers are with Judgement, Bane, and Litany up... so this isn't happening before round 3 because they are all swift action activations. What where the ogres doing in the first 2 rounds? They can take cover or disarm the archer before he ramps everything up. Also, even if this does all go off, he has blown 2 of his 8 rounds of bane, 1 of his 3 judgements, and 1 of his 3 level 3 spells (assuming 16 wis). Also, with the double damage, he might have killed the one enemy that was affected by the litany in less than a full attack and not even gotten a full round of benefit out of that spell, especially if it isn't happening until the 3rd round of the combat (if there is still an undamaged enemy on the 3rd round, sounds like that's good for you giving them a challenge). Again, the full trick is limited to 3 rounds per day against 3 specific enemies and leaves him unable to use judgement in other combats that day and only 2 other rounds worth of bane damage.
And, by my back of the envelope math...
6 BAB + 6 Dex + 3 Enhancement (2 from bane) + 2 sacred (judgement) + 1 PBS -2 rapid shot -2deadly aim = +14... after TWO rounds of buffing with limited use abilitiesHe's looking at about +14 (two arrows) / +14 (one arrow)/ +9 (one arrow) with judgement, bane, deadly aim, rapid shot, and point blank shot in play, given the weapon you described and assuming 22 dex. If the ogres have cover, he is shooting against 21 AC... hardly automatic, but why waste that much power on a CR3... if they are hill giants with cover, then that is AC25... an even 50/50 to hit.
The rest of those combats he is +12 (2arrows) / +12 / +7 for 1d8+1d6+12.... not awful for a level 9 character, but not...
While the inquisitor in my game is melee, I have a similar experience with them. They are extremely good a few rounds a day, middle of the road a few more, and fall off sharply after that. Extending encounters with things like enemy reinforcements, maxing enemy HP per hit die rather than using the average, and having enemies take full cover can drain party resources fast. Also, do not let the players have a 5 minute adventuring day.