Goblin Squad Member
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.........while we are arguing for changes what about allowing people to make items that act as a retributive strike on death destroying all items not threaded. This kind of scorched earth action is meaningful is it not?
I actually really like this idea but any advantage needs a corresponding downside.
I would say make this a trainable ability that changes the nature of threading. You instead use the magical energy of threading items to make yourself explode destroying everything on you (And possibly unleashing an AoE damage effect). This removes the ability to thread anything when active.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A scorched earth policy would be interesting. Denial of assets is as important as outright killing someone. If I have to die, I would prefer that my attacker didn't gain anything out of it. Having to sacrifice all threads is also an interesting idea. It would certainly help the market out. Lots of Tier 1 equipment being used for suicide runs into enemy territory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I kept all my stuff in s separate bag while playing Darkfall. I never knew if it worked, but on a few occasions I was getting pursued by gankers while gathering, and while being chased I would drop the bag, (hopefully) destroying all their potential loot. If nothing else it made me feel better about my death, denying the killer the hard earned loot I had worked for. A similar tool should be available in PFO. "If I'm going down I'm taking my crap with me!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you die while wearing an assassin's mask, you don't get the benefit of any of your gear threads, so all your gear remains with your anonymous-looking husk. Upgraded masks give you the option to have your husk automatically destroy itself on death, removing all evidence of your existence and keeping your killers from getting your stuff.
I think scorched-earth has applicability beyond masked assassins though. Making it a feat that you train, and then slot when you want to go into burn-it-all mode, is probably the right way to do it. I'd go farther though and make it so anything you have equipped when you slot the feat cannot be unequipped and is destroyed when you unslot the feat- i.e. anything you use in burn-up mode is definitely gone whether you win or lose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I kept all my stuff in s separate bag while playing Darkfall. I never knew if it worked, but on a few occasions I was getting pursued by gankers while gathering, and while being chased I would drop the bag, (hopefully) destroying all their potential loot. If nothing else it made me feel better about my death, denying the killer the hard earned loot I had worked for. A similar tool should be available in PFO. "If I'm going down I'm taking my crap with me!"
That gear actually remained with your body for 5 minutes after deletion. I would hope PFO goes by a similar policy unless you sacrifice something to avoid that.
I've always figured item deletion should be a fairly short timer that is interrupted by combat damage. That way it isn't overly tedious outside combat but near impossible inside of it.
I kept all my stuff in s separate bag while playing Darkfall. I never knew if it worked, but on a few occasions I was getting pursued by gankers while gathering, and while being chased I would drop the bag, (hopefully) destroying all their potential loot. If nothing else it made me feel better about my death, denying the killer the hard earned loot I had worked for. A similar tool should be available in PFO. "If I'm going down I'm taking my crap with me!"
The risk is, once you die, that loot is the bandit's hard-earned loot that they have worked hard for. If a "scorched inventory" is possible, it needs to be a sacrifice on the merchant's part—like blocking him from using threads. I agree with Andius that item deletion should be near-impossible during combat.
EDIT: That's in PFO, of course. You were fleeing gankers in Darkfall, which I'm sure is a whole other story.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bandit's loot a merchant. The merchant had a box. The Bandit's open the box. *CLICK*
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I remember right, this is already A mechanic for Assassins. All our gear is destroyed on deathUnless I missed something, assassinating gave a chance to cut bind point threads. The idea was to get notable characters out of a fight.
He's referring to talk of upgraded assassin's masks destroying the assassin's gear in the event they are killed, not the target's gear.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Don't know if we have solid plans on the difficulty of deleting items while out of combat. Keeping them around in the database and as a potential for a little while may be useful, but may be more database work than the benefit is worth. Especially since our plan is to not let you interact with your inventory directly at all while you're in combat, so you wouldn't be able to delete items any more than you could use unslotted consumables. The only time you can destroy gear is when you might still have a chance to get away (and I am pretty sure we want you to be able to drop heavy stuff to run faster if you have enough warning).
Scorched earth at the cost of threads is clearly something we've already talked about doing for Assassins, but more as a "leave no evidence" option than a "my killers get nothing!" option. So I'm interested to hear the overall opinions on some version of it as explicit item denial.
Bandit's loot a merchant. The merchant had a box. The Bandit's open the box. *CLICK*
The River Kingdoms have now been destroyed.
Play Again? Y/N
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's my 180.
No. 25% is good enough. Leave something for the victor. They are already paying influence to feud, are targets of such themselves, or taking a rep hit to get unthreaded junk or gathered goodies.
It is not realistic <--(hehe) to be able to destroy most items while you are fighting or running.
Edit: In case I missed the point, out of combat, when the enemy is marching, with time, for bulk goods. Yes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose this is where I differ from my carebear brethren, I don't expect to survive my encounters with the PvPers on a regular basis but am not opposed to their gameplay as long as I can try meaningful acts of defiance. Oh well more time for me to focus on the poi I hope to manage, it's not like the star metal was going to directly benefit me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I kept all my stuff in s separate bag while playing Darkfall. I never knew if it worked, but on a few occasions I was getting pursued by gankers while gathering, and while being chased I would drop the bag, (hopefully) destroying all their potential loot. If nothing else it made me feel better about my death, denying the killer the hard earned loot I had worked for. A similar tool should be available in PFO. "If I'm going down I'm taking my crap with me!"That gear actually remained with your body for 5 minutes after deletion. I would hope PFO goes by a similar policy unless you sacrifice something to avoid that.
I've always figured item deletion should be a fairly short timer that is interrupted by combat damage. That way it isn't overly tedious outside combat but near impossible inside of it.
Of course I could never tell if dragging my bag of lootz outside my pack and letting go worked. ("Do you wish to destroy this item? Yes No")
But it made me feel a little better about my death knowing (hoping) I could deprive the killer of something. Granted, it was rarely worth dying for, or killing for, but the rule set was different in Darkfall, as there were zero consequences for killing everyone you met, so you did.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I kept all my stuff in s separate bag while playing Darkfall. I never knew if it worked, but on a few occasions I was getting pursued by gankers while gathering, and while being chased I would drop the bag, (hopefully) destroying all their potential loot. If nothing else it made me feel better about my death, denying the killer the hard earned loot I had worked for. A similar tool should be available in PFO. "If I'm going down I'm taking my crap with me!"That gear actually remained with your body for 5 minutes after deletion. I would hope PFO goes by a similar policy unless you sacrifice something to avoid that.
I've always figured item deletion should be a fairly short timer that is interrupted by combat damage. That way it isn't overly tedious outside combat but near impossible inside of it.
Of course I could never tell if dragging my bag of lootz outside my pack and letting go worked. ("Do you wish to destroy this item? Yes No")
But it made me feel a little better about my death knowing (hoping) I could deprive the killer of something. Granted, it was rarely worth dying for, or killing for, but the rule set was different in Darkfall, as there were zero consequences for killing everyone you met, so you did.
I did it there too. At least a few times, when I had time. (heh) Many did/do. Many keep everything in a single bag. You see talk about it in the global channel all the time. The entire attitude and mechanical situation is different there than we will see here (hopefully), as Hardin says. Having said that, there are a few good apples in DFUW. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, I'd like to see some sort of sliding scale on it. Pay nothing, get 25% destruction, pay more for 50%, even more for 75% and more still for 100%. Probably on some sort of non-linear cost curve. At anything less than 100%, the person still isn't controlling what specific items get destroyed
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't know if we have solid plans on the difficulty of deleting items while out of combat. Keeping them around in the database and as a potential for a little while may be useful, but may be more database work than the benefit is worth. Especially since our plan is to not let you interact with your inventory directly at all while you're in combat, so you wouldn't be able to delete items any more than you could use unslotted consumables. The only time you can destroy gear is when you might still have a chance to get away (and I am pretty sure we want you to be able to drop heavy stuff to run faster if you have enough warning).
Scorched earth at the cost of threads is clearly something we've already talked about doing for Assassins, but more as a "leave no evidence" option than a "my killers get nothing!" option. So I'm interested to hear the overall opinions on some version of it as explicit item denial.
I think making it a separate mechanic from assassins altogether would be a good idea. Given the disguise feat I'm sure some assassins will openly talk about being such (Wait! Blearingr was an an assasin?! Noooooo... There must be some sort of mistake!) but others may infiltrate various companies and really not want the fact they are assassins exposed.
Given that there are obvious uses for this ability outside being an assassin I would let everyone (assassins included) choose whether or not they want to train the skill.
Training time and loss of threads should be a strong enough drawback to keep it from being an obvious choice for everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's my 180.
No. 25% is good enough. Leave something for the victor. They are already paying influence to feud, are targets of such themselves, or taking a rep hit to get unthreaded junk or gathered goodies.
It is not realistic <--(hehe) to be able to destroy most items while you are fighting or running.
Edit: In case I missed the point, out of combat, when the enemy is marching, with time, for bulk goods. Yes.
We already know a portion of the loot dropped is destroyed. Looting enemy corpses is only so profitable already. I leave you 4 better options to make profit as a bandit:
1. We'll assume trade caravans will require carts/pack animals etc. at some point. Those are not your inventory, this should not effect them.
2. Outpost raids.
3. Feud a target, make them pay a ransom for you to stop killing their members.
4. SAD them. This won't hurt you if they hand over their stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In a world where all good "stuff" comes from player crafters, it increases their value. As with most things, unless it's needed, I favour leaving it alone for now. If it's valuable, some cost is certainly in order. Maybe, since crafters have fewer reasons to spend influence, make it a type of death curse that they can choose to spend influence on?
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Goblin Squad Member
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A keyword attached to items chosen during the crafting process could maybe provide this? Would work for gear only, not raw resources (unless used on a bag of holding, causing it do destroy itself as well as all contents upon death).
Then you would be giving up a "keyword slot" if there is such a thing in order to not let your enemy get the item when you die. Such items should of course not be threadable.
"soulbound" - when the owner's soul leaves the body, the item (and all contents in it, in case of a bag) are destroyed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Presently we do not know information that is very important to this conversation:
1. How many threads do we start with?
2. How many threads do items above "starting equipment" use up?
3. Upon death, how is the 25% destroyed determined?
4. Upon death, how much will the threaded items be degraded?
5. What are the possibilities of repairing and how much will it cost?
I believe by tweaking these systems, the Devs can make death a fairly significant consequence.
There should also be a "Condition" caused by death that effects the character's attributes / abilities for a period of time, that can also be tweaked.
My hope is that death will be less frequent, but have a greater consequence. The loss of loot should be a secondary fear when compared to death, even in a world where characters are resurrected.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't know if we have solid plans on the difficulty of deleting items while out of combat. Keeping them around in the database and as a potential for a little while may be useful, but may be more database work than the benefit is worth. Especially since our plan is to not let you interact with your inventory directly at all while you're in combat, so you wouldn't be able to delete items any more than you could use unslotted consumables. The only time you can destroy gear is when you might still have a chance to get away (and I am pretty sure we want you to be able to drop heavy stuff to run faster if you have enough warning).
Scorched earth at the cost of threads is clearly something we've already talked about doing for Assassins, but more as a "leave no evidence" option than a "my killers get nothing!" option. So I'm interested to hear the overall opinions on some version of it as explicit item denial.
While I understand and agree with the design decision to lock out inventory in combat. EVERY MMO I have played for more than a few months had "still in combat" bugs.
The system of locking out inventory would quite literally break the game should a bug arise where people remain in combat when thay are not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This reminds me a bit of the /escapepod command in SWG space combat. PVP pilots would use it when their ship was severely damaged but not destroyed. When the pilot podded, his foe was denied getting any GCW points (needed to maintain PVP rank) and a notch in their kill count (bragging rights). Needless to say, this was a very divisive tactic in the PVP pilot community.
I plan to make attacking me as unprofitable as possible, but I'd prefer to do it by not carrying anything that can't be threaded or carrying as little of real value as possible rather than furiously deleting items in combat or investing in a scorched earth skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not active right now.
Once it's in, the current plan is:
* For single items or small stacks, we roll a random 25% chance of destruction for each item.
* For stacks over 5, we destroy 25% of the items in the stack (and I assume it will round in a normal fashion, so if it's a stack of 6-9, it'll destroy 2 items).
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This "scorched earth tatic" seems like a way to circunvent the drop-on-death system and therefore didn't like it.
The Chaotic Settlements(the one which is more likely rob/kill people for their goods) had a hit on their prodution rates, exactly because (imho) the orb/loot income factor (Corruption I guess). Of course, this need to be balanced.
If a character could deny this system (drop-on-death) then the Corruption Debuff on Chaotic Stls lost its senses. Actualy, if this kind of action is permited, it will be widely used by anyone in serious danger of death in a way to punish the attacker (which by informations we have, still have majority of downsides), ripping from PvP the meaning in resources influx.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Scorched earth at the cost of threads is clearly something we've already talked about doing for Assassins, but more as a "leave no evidence" option than a "my killers get nothing!" option. So I'm interested to hear the overall opinions on some version of it as explicit item denial.
I'm having trouble finding it, but I remember Ryan making a post some time ago on this. If I recall correctly, his point was that full loot was bad because it created an environment where the best/easiest way to gear up your character was to go out and kill another well-geared character. Obviously, the threading system and the 25% item destruction is a nod toward that understanding.
Personally, I don't think item destruction as item denial is appropriate on a character level, but I do think it's appropriate on a caravan/wagon level as long as there are significant costs. It's a lot easier for me to justify having an explosive trap on a wagon than on my person.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well you could be carrying around a explosive magical item that triggered with the condition, your death. Possibly costly, especially if you can not deactivate it as the situation warrants.
Contingency is a Level 6 Wizard/Sorcerer spell, and would be appropriate for that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of trapping items (even wagons and so forth), the traps could do damage if they are set off, as well as possibly destroy the item.
The idea here is that the person wanting to loot the item/object/container has some recourse to counter it by training in a skill that might allow them to successfully disarm the trap. Failure would indicate that the trap goes off, damaging and possibly even killing the attacker. Trapping the item/object/container obviously requires some skil, as well as resources to achieve. This would do several things...
- It increases the number of skills that can be relevant in the game, including non-combat skills.
- It creates a new venue of competition between the trap-maker and the disarmer.
- It provides meaningfull choices to both the looter and the person being looted. As the person being looted, do you invest extra reasources, skill training and man hours to have a chance of denying your attackers valuable loot, and thus possibly helping to dissuade people from attacking you or do you forgo the extra investment in the hopes of achieving greater proffits even though it will mean your attackers will have more incentive to attack you over others? Exactly what loot is worth protecting in this manner? As a looter, do you risk your own life and belongings in order to get trapped loot or do you leave it and simply go for easier pickings at less risk. Does this factor into your decison to make SAD's? Even if you know you can easly kill the target, if his loot is well trapped you risk gaining nothing valuable from the counter and possibly even your own life in forcing a fight. Does it behoove you therefore to make a more palatable SAD demand to forego such risk?
I think it adds an interesting dimension to the economics of PvP.
Hm...hey, will it be possible to SAD an overall caravan?
Just wondering. Because it seems like SAD-ing a large group could be pretty tough, even if you have equal numbers.
Say each bandit SAD's a merchant. Say all merchants but one accept the SAD and pay up.
The bandits attack the one who didn't pay, obviously. Can the merchants that paid up assist their colleague? Will anyone lose Rep for doing so?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hostility propagation is going to be a tricky and touchy subject.
A, B, C are in a group. They encounter X, Y, Z also grouped.
X attacks A, becoming an Attacker and a Criminal. B and C can now join in on attacking X. I would think that Y and Z are not yet flagged hostile to anyone and have nobody flagged hostile to them either.
What if A was a free target for X due to faction opposition or feud? I think nobody gets to join in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you die ,your gear is destroyed , your team wins the fight though and you lost it all for nothing. Or do the traps know that your team is losing as well as knowing that you died, how do items know you died anyway?
The traps are applied to items you carried. So when gear gets looted from your corpse, it doesn't matter by who, freind or foe, they have to be disarmed. I would assume that the player owning the trapped gear can remove the traps from the gear without a skill roll... but anyone else should need to make a roll. That's the way I would work it anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you die ,your gear is destroyed , your team wins the fight though and you lost it all for nothing. Or do the traps know that your team is losing as well as knowing that you died, how do items know you died anyway?The traps are applied to items you carried. So when gear gets looted from your corpse, it doesn't matter by who, freind or foe, they have to be disarmed. I would assume that the player owning the trapped gear can remove the traps from the gear without a skill roll... but anyone else should need to make a roll. That's the way I would work it anyway.
I can see it if you are able to cast a magical trap on your items ,however that would be to injure looters. The OP seems to be about not wanting anyone to get any of your loot and trying to invent a game mechanic to do that, it's a bad way to build a game world in my opinion. The whole idea seems to be divorced from lore and about how people feel about being looted and trying to feel better about your characters death, it's supposed to be painful to die and benefit the one who wins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see it if you are able to cast a magical trap on your items ,however that would be to injure looters. The OP seems to be about not wanting anyone to get any of your loot and trying to invent a game mechanic to do that, it's a bad way to build a game world in my opinion. The whole idea seems to be divorced from lore and about how people feel about being looted and trying to feel better about your characters death, it's supposed to be painful to die and benefit the one who wins.So you die ,your gear is destroyed , your team wins the fight though and you lost it all for nothing. Or do the traps know that your team is losing as well as knowing that you died, how do items know you died anyway?The traps are applied to items you carried. So when gear gets looted from your corpse, it doesn't matter by who, freind or foe, they have to be disarmed. I would assume that the player owning the trapped gear can remove the traps from the gear without a skill roll... but anyone else should need to make a roll. That's the way I would work it anyway.
My idea was not to make it an auto-destroy thing but to introduce the concept of traps (magical or mundane) which would be entirely inline with TableTop play and the lore. In fact, most of the time that you find a teasure chest or something very valuable in TT, there is a very good chance that you are going to have to go through a trap to get it.
Just because someone defeated another character in combat doesn't neccesarly mean that they would get the maximum amount of loot and do so without any risk to themselves. It's an extension of the contest between the 2 characters. You've directly defeated your opponents combat abilities...but can you defeat the security measures they've put on thier valuables? Some stuff it wouldn't make sense to have trapped, like the weapon they were using...but that mostly isn't going to be the stuff likely to get looted...more commonly it will be resources that the character was carrying like a bag of herbs or potions or a coffer full of valuable cloth, etc. One can very easly see things such as trade goods transported in chests or coffers or even pouches being protected with acid vial or black powder traps, let alone things like magic, etc.
You are simply adding another dimension of gameplay/conflict... that the contest hasn't entirely ended with the last sword stroke. Again, it should never be an auto destroy or anything like that, but a contest of skills between the trap maker and the disarmer.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So, what would prevent a character from setting their inventory to destroy on death and then going out gathering with no equipment? Since that character will be able to move at maximum speed, it would be a pain to chase him down, and it will quickly be known that they are always trapped to self-destruct.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Presently we do not know information that is very important to this conversation:
I believe by tweaking these systems, the Devs can make death a fairly significant consequence.
There should also be a "Condition" caused by death that effects the character's attributes / abilities for a period of time, that can also be tweaked.
My hope is that death will be less frequent, but have a greater consequence. The loss of loot should be a secondary fear when compared to death, even in a world where characters are resurrected.
So much like you to make this a bandit game.
1) SAD exists to encourage merchants (or harvesters or, to others, newbies) to give bandits product of their hard work.2) If refused, bandits can attack, kill and take 75% with no rep loss, in some hexes, not even alignment hits.
3) If other associated with merchants (vanguard, people setting up trap for bandits, calvary following, can not join fight without getting Attacker, alignment hit (even if bandits had not hit) and rep loss for those bandits killed (but bandits have not rep loss)
ANd now, if merchants fight and die, they now have a "Condition" caused by death that effects the character's attributes / abilities for a period of time.
Bandits can choose who they attack. Reinforcements not allowed, victims who die are given extra penalties just now suggested.
What other events do you think will help bandits safely attack victims?
Oh, I forgot, you will not take advantage of all these special situations and only attack challenging targets. What about the other bandits for whom you have now suggested a WIN WIN WIN WIN situation.
Oh and the biggest, formerly biggest bandit fighter has decided to partner with bandits for personal griefing vendetta.
*Exasperated self-faceslapping*
Death having more consequences hurts bandits, not merchants. Banditry is way less efficient when it comes to "loot per raid", especially since you have to go through a rather inefficient SAD. The hugest advantage the bandit has is that death is basically nothing to them. Kill them? Get the greataxe repaired and run right back out. You've got nothing else to lose.
Oh and the biggest, formerly biggest bandit fighter has decided to partner with bandits for personal griefing vendetta.
Also, look, when you're in a knife fight, don't get out a machine gun, shoot the gas tank, and start throwing molotovs around just because you can.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Death with more consequences hurts everyone. The attacker with little gear to lose comes out on top in the tally.
Who is hurt more in a situation where a robbery goes bad or is "planned" to go bad? If the victim wins, the bandit loses little except the penalty of dying. If the bandit wins, what then?
But "extreme risk" is already built into the merchant's portfolio. The bandit's supposed to be basically risk-free. If he begins also dealing with major penalties, he can no longer claim that title. Even though he's still dealing with smaller drawbacks than the merchant, the change in his playstyle is much more drastic.
Different reasons aside, I agree—I don't want death to be any more troublesome than it is now. :P